path: root/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-sharing--sharing-emacs-is-caring-emacs-emacs-education-and-why-i-embraced-video--jacob-boxerman--answers.vtt

WEBVTT


00:00:05.940 --> 00:00:06.060
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're live. So whoever's in the

00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:08.380
background might be able to see you live in

00:00:09.900 --> 00:00:10.080
about 10 seconds as soon as the stream

00:00:11.380 --> 00:00:11.880
catches up. Hi Jacob, how are you doing?

00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:12.540
[Speaker 0]: Got that? We're live. I'm doing well.

00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:13.580
How are you doing today?

00:00:16.200 --> 00:00:16.400
[Speaker 1]: I am doing well and this is the very last

00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:18.160
talk of the day so I'm very excited not

00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:20.279
because it finishes but because I am tired

00:00:22.080 --> 00:00:22.580
[Speaker 0]: Yeah very understandable.

00:00:23.860 --> 00:00:24.320
Well thanks for all of your hard work.

00:00:26.180 --> 00:00:26.320
We all really appreciate it and all the other

00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:26.820
organizers.

00:00:28.980 --> 00:00:29.160
[Speaker 1]: and need some sleep. Well on behalf of all

00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:31.220
the organizers thank you but you know it all

00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:34.120
it makes it all worthwhile when we see the

00:00:36.280 --> 00:00:36.400
valuable contribution that every single 1 of

00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:37.660
our speakers are making,

00:00:39.559 --> 00:00:39.920
not only for recording their talks,

00:00:42.180 --> 00:00:42.380
which is a tough demand on people to say,

00:00:43.420 --> 00:00:43.920
oh, if you want to go to EmacsConf,

00:00:45.480 --> 00:00:45.980
you might want to record your talk.

00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:49.120
But then almost all of you do it and you

00:00:50.440 --> 00:00:50.640
spend a lot of time with us answering

00:00:51.580 --> 00:00:51.940
questions. So we couldn't do it.

00:00:53.680 --> 00:00:53.900
You know, we wouldn't be spending as much

00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:55.460
energy, half as much energy,

00:00:58.320 --> 00:00:58.660
if we didn't believe that it was worth it.

00:01:01.120 --> 00:01:01.320
So now it's me thanking you on behalf of all

00:01:01.480 --> 00:01:01.980
the speakers.

00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:04.200
[Speaker 0]: Well thank you that's part of what I wanted

00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:06.340
to get across in my talk was that coming

00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:09.000
together and sharing ourselves and you know

00:01:11.140 --> 00:01:11.320
not just putting little little essays out

00:01:13.020 --> 00:01:13.380
there and single videos but coming together

00:01:15.720 --> 00:01:15.940
as a community you know sharing ourselves our

00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:18.800
faces our voices you know it really brings us

00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:20.340
together and makes everyone stronger.

00:01:22.940 --> 00:01:23.400
[Speaker 1]: Exactly, and I think it's been a recurring

00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:27.440
theme. Most of the talks we have at

00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:29.200
EmacsConf, they're usually about sharing,

00:01:30.580 --> 00:01:30.800
obviously, sharing the knowledge that they've

00:01:32.960 --> 00:01:33.340
acquired, either writing a package or

00:01:35.860 --> 00:01:36.040
learning how to use Emacs as a professor in

00:01:37.200 --> 00:01:37.700
academia or stuff like this.

00:01:39.380 --> 00:01:39.600
But what I particularly like this year about

00:01:41.720 --> 00:01:41.960
the different talks we've had is that they've

00:01:44.479 --> 00:01:44.979
really made the sharing even more obvious.

00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:46.840
We've had the mentoring this afternoon and we

00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:49.740
have your talk about using videos as a

00:01:51.100 --> 00:01:51.600
different medium to get into something.

00:01:54.020 --> 00:01:54.520
And I really think in terms of accessibility

00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:58.940
to Emacs, all of you who talked about this

00:01:59.960 --> 00:02:00.180
topic are doing a wonderful job.

00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:01.900
So, thank you again for all of this.

00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:04.240
[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Yeah, do we have any questions to

00:02:04.360 --> 00:02:04.860
be answering?

00:02:08.199 --> 00:02:08.560
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so only 1 for now and I'll invite

00:02:10.860 --> 00:02:11.200
people as usual to please add their question

00:02:12.720 --> 00:02:13.220
to the pad or to join us on BBB.

00:02:15.920 --> 00:02:16.080
Now the chat is open if you want to join us

00:02:17.480 --> 00:02:17.980
on BBB and ask your questions directly.

00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:20.740
And in the meantime, I will read the first

00:02:22.700 --> 00:02:23.200
question. So, Kroting,

00:02:25.040 --> 00:02:25.520
are you using OxReveal to make your slides?

00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:26.960
If not, what are you using?

00:02:27.740 --> 00:02:28.240
They look very elegant,

00:02:28.820 --> 00:02:29.320
and I concur.

00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:33.420
[Speaker 0]: That's true. I am using OxReveal.

00:02:35.320 --> 00:02:35.580
I have a whole entire video on it.

00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:36.520
So if you're interested,

00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:38.000
feel free to take a look.

00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:40.340
It's very simple to get started with.

00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:42.780
There are a lot of different packages to use

00:02:45.640 --> 00:02:46.140
Reveal.js and Emacs. OxReveal or OrgReveal

00:02:47.320 --> 00:02:47.820
seems to be pretty easy to use.

00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:49.020
So try that 1 out. Yeah,

00:02:49.440 --> 00:02:49.940
it's really nice.

00:02:54.020 --> 00:02:54.160
[Speaker 1]: Awesome. I'm going to give a little bit of

00:02:55.840 --> 00:02:56.200
time for the other people to finish writing

00:02:56.980 --> 00:02:57.260
their answer. In the meantime,

00:02:58.260 --> 00:02:58.660
I'll ask you 1 of my own.

00:02:59.620 --> 00:02:59.960
So you said you were in college,

00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:01.780
right? In com sci. Sorry,

00:03:02.980 --> 00:03:03.480
[Speaker 0]: Yeah.

00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:07.460
[Speaker 1]: computer science. I think it's great to find

00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:09.360
people in computer science who have,

00:03:11.780 --> 00:03:12.280
from the get-go, as soon as their bachelor,

00:03:16.220 --> 00:03:16.360
an appetite for sharing and vulgarizing a lot

00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:17.900
of knowledge. Because it feels like if you

00:03:18.540 --> 00:03:18.760
get started like this,

00:03:20.580 --> 00:03:20.740
you're gonna have a well over time as you

00:03:21.500 --> 00:03:21.820
progress with the learning.

00:03:23.720 --> 00:03:23.860
So I'm very excited to see what you do in the

00:03:24.720 --> 00:03:25.220
coming years because of this.

00:03:26.420 --> 00:03:26.920
[Speaker 0]: Thank you, thank you, yeah.

00:03:29.700 --> 00:03:29.860
And Emacs has been like very central to my

00:03:32.100 --> 00:03:32.300
education as well. It's a great way to sort

00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:34.640
of organize myself and also it's a good way

00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:36.220
to share with other people with Org Mode.

00:03:38.000 --> 00:03:38.500
I can export my code, I can export notes.

00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:39.840
It makes it so simple.

00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:42.720
My peers are also impressed by my PDF

00:03:44.260 --> 00:03:44.440
documents and whatever I can produce with

00:03:48.040 --> 00:03:48.160
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah. If only they knew how much time it

00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:50.340
takes us to get LaTeX to behave properly.

00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:52.860
[Speaker 0]: Emacs. Right, right. I see some more

00:03:53.980 --> 00:03:54.480
questions coming in I can answer.

00:03:56.940 --> 00:03:57.100
[Speaker 1]: Sure, I'll read it for you so that it's a

00:03:57.440 --> 00:03:57.940
little more interactive.

00:03:59.920 --> 00:04:00.160
So, second question. Videos can be very

00:04:01.820 --> 00:04:02.320
inspirational to learn about something by

00:04:04.860 --> 00:04:05.360
watching it used. I often find it,

00:04:07.080 --> 00:04:07.440
I often find that I need to do some research

00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:09.440
after watching a video to learn more.

00:04:10.640 --> 00:04:11.040
Do you give people links to relevant

00:04:11.820 --> 00:04:12.320
resources or etc?

00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:15.300
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, that's something I could definitely do

00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:18.300
more of. When I make a video I try to combine

00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:20.600
all the relevant resources and make 1 sort of

00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:24.100
cohesive video. I like to think of my video

00:04:26.580 --> 00:04:26.980
as a jumping off point to the Emacs manuals

00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:30.160
because the manuals are so so full but you

00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:31.800
need to have a sort of a cursory

00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:34.120
understanding to get started with them.

00:04:35.440 --> 00:04:35.600
And then yeah, if there are other sort of

00:04:36.880 --> 00:04:37.000
GitHub links or something like that,

00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:38.720
I like to put those in the description.

00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:42.980
[Speaker 1]: Good question. Right. And I think it's arcing

00:04:44.820 --> 00:04:45.320
back also. I keep using the word arcing back.

00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.580
I'm sorry. It's my... Every EmacsConf I have

00:04:49.440 --> 00:04:49.640
1 word or 1 phrase that I keep saying over

00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:51.360
and over again and this 1 is not leaving but

00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:53.240
don't worry we only have about 1 more hour

00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.140
and then you're done with me arcing out,

00:04:59.060 --> 00:04:59.540
arcing back to stuff. I think this is

00:05:03.740 --> 00:05:03.960
reminding me of both the mentoring talk we've

00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:07.120
had today about onboarding people basically

00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:08.600
so that they can have a well of a time on

00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:11.240
their own on Emacs and I'd agree with you,

00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:13.460
you know, as much as we like to rave about

00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:15.640
Emacs as a self-documenting editor,

00:05:17.700 --> 00:05:17.860
about how complete the documentation is,

00:05:18.940 --> 00:05:19.240
As you've mentioned in your talk,

00:05:21.220 --> 00:05:21.720
it's not accessible directly to the people.

00:05:23.620 --> 00:05:23.800
We can yell as much as we want to people on

00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:26.880
IRC, you just need to RTFM or you just need

00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:29.780
to do Ctrl-H-V for the variable or Ctrl-H-F.

00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:32.420
What is a variable? I am not for computer

00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:33.540
science. What does it mean?

00:05:36.580 --> 00:05:36.780
It is really blocking a lot of people right

00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:40.960
from the get-go. And I think the element of

00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:42.520
interactivity, as you've mentioned in your

00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:45.800
talk, that is introduced by video just makes

00:05:47.520 --> 00:05:48.020
the hand-holding that much easier.

00:05:50.940 --> 00:05:51.440
And it's great to do it like this.

00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:53.680
All right, I think we've got another

00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:56.320
questions. What are your fellow codes of

00:05:57.500 --> 00:05:58.000
students using for their editors?

00:06:00.200 --> 00:06:00.540
What kinds of feedback do you get from them

00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:02.460
when they learn about you using Emacs?

00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:05.580
[Speaker 0]: That's a great question.

00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:10.760
I think professors want to make things,

00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:12.740
the entry as simple as possible.

00:06:15.540 --> 00:06:15.700
So for the first computer science course and

00:06:16.640 --> 00:06:17.140
the second, at least at Columbia,

00:06:20.380 --> 00:06:20.880
They use Codeo, which is 1 of those online

00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:26.040
whole IDEs. Now in the third course,

00:06:27.520 --> 00:06:27.680
which is sort of more the weed out as they

00:06:29.820 --> 00:06:30.040
call it, the professor gives you a choice and

00:06:33.320 --> 00:06:33.820
he says you can use Emacs or you can use Vim.

00:06:36.340 --> 00:06:36.680
And everyone uses Vim.

00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:39.220
Not a single person I know is using Emacs,

00:06:43.380 --> 00:06:43.520
simply because the professor's using Vim and

00:06:45.080 --> 00:06:45.320
that's what he shows on screen and that's

00:06:46.640 --> 00:06:47.140
just what everyone else falls into.

00:06:50.220 --> 00:06:50.320
And it's also, like, they're totally in the

00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.320
terminal, and that can be a big barrier of

00:06:54.640 --> 00:06:55.140
entry. So I think they see Emacs as like

00:06:59.760 --> 00:07:00.060
something like Vim, but it's not sort of the

00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:01.960
same idea. It's not what everyone uses

00:07:03.840 --> 00:07:03.960
because it's not what's being shown up on

00:07:05.220 --> 00:07:05.660
screen. So if you're not following,

00:07:06.460 --> 00:07:06.880
like if you're a new learner,

00:07:08.300 --> 00:07:08.680
if you're not following with Vim,

00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:10.600
you might have a little bit of a harder time

00:07:12.740 --> 00:07:12.940
in these classes because everyone else is

00:07:14.060 --> 00:07:14.560
also using Vim.

00:07:19.640 --> 00:07:19.920
[Speaker 1]: Right. And I'm kind of reminded again,

00:07:21.260 --> 00:07:21.640
it feels like this is the last talk,

00:07:24.020 --> 00:07:24.280
so I'm reminiscing of all the different talks

00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:26.000
we've had on the general chat,

00:07:28.340 --> 00:07:28.580
at least. And you know,

00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:31.020
it feels like we had, you know,

00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:34.660
this 1 talk, I can't remember the first name

00:07:36.340 --> 00:07:36.680
at the presentation, but it was about forcing

00:07:38.760 --> 00:07:38.940
people to use Emacs and not giving them the

00:07:41.860 --> 00:07:42.040
choice to do this. And I found it to be such

00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:45.420
a powerful move to do because usually people,

00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:47.720
maybe some classes are actually forcing Vim

00:07:49.540 --> 00:07:49.920
because it's a little more palatable I guess.

00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:51.520
Do you have something to say on this?

00:07:53.760 --> 00:07:53.940
[Speaker 0]: Yeah let me actually, I've remembered 1

00:07:55.380 --> 00:07:55.720
thing, I know there's another course,

00:07:58.880 --> 00:07:59.060
a fourth course you'd say in assembly and the

00:08:00.960 --> 00:08:01.460
professor suggests Emacs.

00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:04.340
However I know that's just 1 professor so I

00:08:06.740 --> 00:08:06.980
think broadly Vim is more of the standard and

00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:08.480
yeah what were you, can you repeat what you

00:08:09.880 --> 00:08:10.380
said about Vim being more sort of friendly?

00:08:12.880 --> 00:08:13.260
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, because it's not,

00:08:14.960 --> 00:08:15.200
okay, I'm quoting the opinions of other,

00:08:17.040 --> 00:08:17.540
you know, I would hate to insult Emacs and

00:08:19.400 --> 00:08:19.840
give myself a bad rep at Emacs comfortable

00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:23.660
things. But it feels like because modal

00:08:26.280 --> 00:08:26.520
editing is usually something that people hear

00:08:28.260 --> 00:08:28.420
from when it starts looking into how to be

00:08:30.460 --> 00:08:30.920
more efficient when they read text.

00:08:32.220 --> 00:08:32.720
It feels like the first door,

00:08:35.140 --> 00:08:35.640
the closest door to this is Vim.

00:08:36.380 --> 00:08:36.880
And so a lot of professors,

00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.220
because there's very little on-boarding,

00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:41.980
I mean, I'm going to say the word on-boarding

00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:43.140
and then I'm going to modulate,

00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:44.760
but there's very little on-boarding to get

00:08:47.040 --> 00:08:47.480
into modal editing. You just have your H's

00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:50.380
and your J's and your K's and your L's and

00:08:51.020 --> 00:08:51.180
everything works. You know,

00:08:52.360 --> 00:08:52.680
it does something, yes,

00:08:53.640 --> 00:08:53.960
the arrows are in weird places,

00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.580
but it does something that is vaguely

00:08:58.260 --> 00:08:58.760
logical. Whereas with Ctrl-Meta,

00:09:03.380 --> 00:09:03.560
Hyper, Super, J and then Ctrl-C and Meta 4

00:09:04.560 --> 00:09:05.060
for good measure, you know,

00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.140
It already feels a little more opaque in

00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:10.460
terms of how people are going to use this.

00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:13.940
So, I think it's also 1 good thing about the

00:09:15.860 --> 00:09:16.020
videos is that people can see you're not

00:09:17.900 --> 00:09:18.400
contorting your hands in very difficult

00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:21.420
shapes to use Emacs as the bad rep usually

00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:24.620
is. But yeah, to come back to what I was

00:09:26.600 --> 00:09:27.040
saying about Vim, I just feel like they've

00:09:30.460 --> 00:09:30.760
won the battle in terms of looking very

00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:34.340
accessible. And for us with Emacs,

00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.580
from the top of our ivory tower,

00:09:39.940 --> 00:09:40.440
we see the ease of getting into Vim,

00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:43.660
but we always think, but Vim script is shit,

00:09:44.700 --> 00:09:45.040
we've got Elisp for us,

00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:46.820
We can do so many things on our end.

00:09:51.180 --> 00:09:51.340
So yeah, does that evoke anything to you with

00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:53.160
regards to Vim versus Emacs in terms of

00:09:53.160 --> 00:09:53.660
apprehension?

00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:57.040
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think that Emacs might be more

00:09:59.320 --> 00:09:59.540
straightforward if you just plop someone down

00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:01.780
in front of their computer because you press

00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:04.300
H, you're going to see an H on the screen,

00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:07.280
right? And Vim is a whole new modal mindset.

00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:10.380
So for a student who wants to like gain

00:10:13.540 --> 00:10:13.740
efficiency, then yes, I think that Vim is

00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:15.360
definitely like, it feels like a more

00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:16.760
friendly introduction.

00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:18.600
But I think that Emacs doesn't get enough

00:10:20.580 --> 00:10:20.680
credit around here. And I'd like to see it

00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:23.460
more often, because a lot of students,

00:10:25.640 --> 00:10:26.140
they're not looking to fix the efficiencies

00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:28.580
in their text editing.

00:10:31.620 --> 00:10:31.780
They're looking to fix the efficiencies in

00:10:33.620 --> 00:10:34.120
how they do homework or how they do their

00:10:34.640 --> 00:10:35.140
programming assignments,

00:10:37.280 --> 00:10:37.540
and they would save time if they,

00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:39.820
or at least the mentality for a student,

00:10:42.500 --> 00:10:42.720
is that if you can just get it done more

00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:44.160
quickly, like it's more,

00:10:45.540 --> 00:10:45.720
you know, you do what you're used to,

00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:49.300
and Vim is just a barrier towards you know

00:10:51.040 --> 00:10:51.180
getting your work done like how do I copy and

00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:52.960
paste something it's a whole new set of

00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:55.280
challenges to learn so I think both have

00:10:56.920 --> 00:10:57.420
their deficiencies and abilities.

00:11:00.760 --> 00:11:00.920
[Speaker 1]: Yeah it's funny because I'm just 1 last thing

00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:03.680
on this it feels like modal editing because

00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:05.860
it is already weird from the get-go,

00:11:08.260 --> 00:11:08.640
perhaps it might do a better job of making

00:11:10.640 --> 00:11:10.760
people uneasy. You know how we say that

00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:12.100
constraints breeds creativity.

00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:15.180
Well, Vim constrains you from the get-go.

00:11:16.160 --> 00:11:16.620
If you do not press I,

00:11:18.120 --> 00:11:18.420
nothing is going to show up in the buffer

00:11:19.040 --> 00:11:19.540
that you're currently editing.

00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:22.000
Whereas Emacs give you this full sense of

00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:24.500
security by when you press J,

00:11:27.860 --> 00:11:28.360
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, true.

00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:29.760
[Speaker 1]: it actually inputs J. All right,

00:11:30.540 --> 00:11:30.840
moving on to another question.

00:11:32.040 --> 00:11:32.540
And by the way, we've got some time.

00:11:34.740 --> 00:11:35.240
We have technically about 6 more minutes,

00:11:38.640 --> 00:11:38.940
but I see Sasha on the other track is already

00:11:40.400 --> 00:11:40.640
answering questions that I'm in about

00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:43.320
EmacsConf. So we can go a little longer,

00:11:44.760 --> 00:11:45.040
as long as I let the organizers know.

00:11:46.000 --> 00:11:46.200
So we've got about, let's say,

00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:48.320
6 minutes for now. And we'll see if more

00:11:50.020 --> 00:11:50.220
questions crop up. All right,

00:11:51.040 --> 00:11:51.540
moving on to the next question.

00:11:53.400 --> 00:11:53.760
Did you start those university classes using

00:11:55.180 --> 00:11:55.680
Emacs, I suppose, in your first year?

00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:01.780
[Speaker 0]: Yes, yeah, I did. I started with Emacs 2

00:12:02.780 --> 00:12:03.120
years before entering college,

00:12:04.280 --> 00:12:04.780
so my junior year of high school.

00:12:09.220 --> 00:12:09.480
And I've basically over time built up a

00:12:11.180 --> 00:12:11.680
workflow of how I will take my notes,

00:12:12.900 --> 00:12:13.400
how I will organize my classes.

00:12:16.280 --> 00:12:16.780
And now that I'm taking programming classes

00:12:18.280 --> 00:12:18.780
where Emacs might be more acceptable.

00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:22.000
It's even enhanced my workflow.

00:12:24.760 --> 00:12:25.260
Taking notes in Ouro for program assists,

00:12:27.540 --> 00:12:27.720
everyone talks about it,

00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:30.880
but from the source, It doesn't get better

00:12:32.860 --> 00:12:33.080
than that, being able to write with

00:12:34.280 --> 00:12:34.780
highlighting, with syntax highlighting,

00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:38.720
with easy exports, running inline code

00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:41.380
blocks. And a lot of these programming

00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.460
classes, they make you code on a server.

00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:45.320
And they just say, oh,

00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:46.980
SSH, and you can use Vim.

00:12:48.560 --> 00:12:49.040
I can use Tramp, and I can use Emacs,

00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:50.940
and I'm perfectly at home.

00:12:52.760 --> 00:12:53.260
It's just such a seamless transition.

00:12:55.380 --> 00:12:55.760
It's a really amazing way to do school.

00:12:58.260 --> 00:12:58.580
Professors, you know, all they want is a PDF

00:12:59.220 --> 00:12:59.340
at the end of the day.

00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:01.020
They just want the paper on their desk.

00:13:03.420 --> 00:13:03.560
They're not so picky about how you get it

00:13:04.840 --> 00:13:05.340
there. They just want it in their hands.

00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:07.540
So, so Emacs is, it's very usable.

00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:08.540
It's very doable.

00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:11.580
[Speaker 1]: Right. I've got a little anecdote on this

00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:13.860
because you're speaking about the topic of

00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:16.280
Emacs at university from the perspective of

00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:18.100
someone who is in computer science.

00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:20.340
But for me, in the humanities,

00:13:22.900 --> 00:13:23.080
I just remember those professors who just

00:13:24.940 --> 00:13:25.440
required you not to use your laptop.

00:13:28.580 --> 00:13:28.780
And I started with Emacs roughly at the same

00:13:32.460 --> 00:13:32.700
age as you did. And I was just using it for

00:13:33.160 --> 00:13:33.580
absolutely everything,

00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:35.740
for my organization, for producing papers.

00:13:37.860 --> 00:13:38.000
And to be told that I could not use Emacs for

00:13:38.680 --> 00:13:39.180
a class for my note-taking,

00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:43.860
I felt utterly naked in the face of what I

00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:46.720
needed to do. And yeah,

00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.120
it's great to see those different

00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:49.540
experiences. And it just,

00:13:50.440 --> 00:13:50.800
you're always going to be weird.

00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:53.120
Like I was the weird guy using Emacs in the

00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:55.080
humanities, but I would have been weird using

00:13:58.440 --> 00:13:58.940
Vim or any kind of computers with fancy

00:13:59.060 --> 00:13:59.560
editing.

00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:02.580
[Speaker 0]: Oh yeah, yeah. And I'm in humanities classes

00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:04.340
as well, I'm not in a strictly engineering,

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:06.880
so people will see me writing an essay about,

00:14:07.780 --> 00:14:08.080
you know, a philosophy essay,

00:14:09.820 --> 00:14:09.960
I was working on an essay about Plato and

00:14:11.180 --> 00:14:11.680
Aristotle, and they say,

00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:14.040
what are you coding, why are you coding your

00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:16.880
essay? And I say, well it's just the font

00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:18.060
looks a little bit different.

00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:19.640
Everything else is the same words,

00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:21.100
just the font looks a little different.

00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:22.660
This is how I like to do it.

00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:25.760
[Speaker 1]: Oh, those pesky monospace fonts are making us

00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:28.020
pass as hackers. But for everyone who is

00:14:29.060 --> 00:14:29.560
behind us, looking at our monitors.

00:14:30.040 --> 00:14:30.540
[Speaker 0]: Exactly.

00:14:33.900 --> 00:14:34.280
[Speaker 1]: All right. A little bit of a remark,

00:14:35.760 --> 00:14:36.020
I guess, towards me and what I said about

00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:37.860
Vim. So, quoting, before NeoVim,

00:14:39.140 --> 00:14:39.640
you had to do as much or more configuration

00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:41.760
to get basic editing done than in Emacs.

00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:43.780
It's also slower with modal editing compared

00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:45.520
to Emacs key bindings because you have to

00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:47.640
press escape and 2 keys to get things done.

00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:49.540
While in Emacs, you only have to press Ctrl

00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:52.360
or Meta something to move or search or

00:14:53.400 --> 00:14:53.900
whatever, and then write.

00:14:55.960 --> 00:14:56.460
And I tend to agree, I'm not familiar with

00:14:59.260 --> 00:14:59.760
the ages before NeoVim,

00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:03.620
But I think we are mostly talking in terms of

00:15:04.900 --> 00:15:05.400
reputation and communication,

00:15:08.360 --> 00:15:08.480
like how is Vim considered nowadays or for

00:15:10.760 --> 00:15:11.260
the last 10 years in the mindset of people

00:15:13.740 --> 00:15:14.240
choosing or about to choose an editor.

00:15:17.620 --> 00:15:17.860
And, You know, I keep spitting the fact about

00:15:19.340 --> 00:15:19.480
VimScript being bad, but I'm going to be

00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.980
honest, I've never actually written any

00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:24.400
VimScript. I'm just parroting whatever the

00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:26.960
giants with shoulders I'm standing have been

00:15:28.260 --> 00:15:28.740
saying to me. And it's not very intelligent,

00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:31.280
I know, but We also have a very limited pool

00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:34.540
of time, and I also think that this is a

00:15:36.460 --> 00:15:36.960
point that your talk addresses in a way.

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:40.740
Yes, we could be starting the massive quest

00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:43.180
of reading the Emacs manual or the ELISP

00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:45.480
introductory guide or the ELISP complete

00:15:47.620 --> 00:15:48.120
guide. A lot of people are trying,

00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:49.440
very highly motivated,

00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:51.220
I'm going to get started on Emacs and I'm

00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:52.440
going to do things right.

00:15:53.760 --> 00:15:54.260
But the fact of the matter is,

00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:56.820
it's not necessarily a good use of your time

00:15:57.740 --> 00:15:58.240
to get started like this,

00:16:00.680 --> 00:16:00.840
because there are so many things you're not

00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:03.660
going to understand, it kind of goes back,

00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:04.920
didn't say iBug this time,

00:16:07.700 --> 00:16:08.200
I stopped myself, it kind of goes back to

00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:11.240
this I plus 1 Vigoski proximals on

00:16:12.740 --> 00:16:12.940
development stuff that I was talking about

00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:16.520
before. The manual is I plus 999.

00:16:20.940 --> 00:16:21.140
Your video might be I plus 3 or I plus 2 and

00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:23.480
the hand-holding really does wonders for

00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:26.400
people to eventually get closer to reading

00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:28.040
the manuals and stuff like this.

00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:31.500
[Speaker 0]: Yeah it's a great way just something about

00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:33.660
giving someone those practical

00:16:35.000 --> 00:16:35.240
demonstrations, that's something I really

00:16:36.860 --> 00:16:37.080
appreciate. A lot of these really nice

00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:39.020
presentations we've had today and yesterday

00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:42.100
show real life use cases and we get to see

00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:44.480
people typing and they're working how they

00:16:46.680 --> 00:16:46.920
would normally work. And that's a great way

00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:49.200
to begin to understand how you can apply a

00:16:50.680 --> 00:16:50.800
tool to yourself because at the end of the

00:16:52.040 --> 00:16:52.360
day Emacs is a tool for us.

00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:54.060
You know we might take joy in it,

00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:55.440
it helps us be more productive,

00:16:58.040 --> 00:16:58.540
it's fun but we're using it for a certain end

00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:01.080
and you know if we how we can understand to

00:17:03.080 --> 00:17:03.280
get to those ends and what those ends might

00:17:05.740 --> 00:17:06.240
even be. It's just great to see other people

00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:07.940
bring that forth for you.

00:17:12.380 --> 00:17:12.619
[Speaker 1]: Okay, great. Well, I don't see any more

00:17:13.980 --> 00:17:14.480
questions in the chat currently,

00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.160
and I don't see anyone who's joined us on the

00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:19.760
blue button. We are near the time that I said

00:17:22.420 --> 00:17:22.920
we've got about 40 seconds to go until we

00:17:24.060 --> 00:17:24.400
were due to end. Jacob,

00:17:26.099 --> 00:17:26.240
I kind of want to give you the microphone for

00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:27.500
the end. Do you have anything to say?

00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:28.680
Like you've talked about your YouTube

00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:30.720
channel, we've already ensured that the links

00:17:31.960 --> 00:17:32.360
will be everywhere on the talk page,

00:17:34.280 --> 00:17:34.640
in the pad, on IRC. But is there anything

00:17:35.540 --> 00:17:35.740
else you'd like to add?

00:17:37.120 --> 00:17:37.620
Because you're the last speaker of EmacsCon,

00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:40.140
and you've got the tough responsibility of

00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:42.540
finishing it.

00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:45.920
[Speaker 0]: Oh, well, that's not tough at all when we've

00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:47.960
had 2 days. I mean, so many people,

00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:51.440
so many presenters coming together and like I

00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:53.140
said right at the beginning to Leo,

00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:55.200
putting your face out there,

00:17:56.180 --> 00:17:56.680
putting your voice out there,

00:17:57.620 --> 00:17:58.120
putting yourself out there,

00:18:00.060 --> 00:18:00.380
it's such a great way to come together

00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:02.580
because Emacs is not the standard.

00:18:04.540 --> 00:18:04.820
You know, I've tried to teach my friends

00:18:06.040 --> 00:18:06.540
Emacs, I've tried to show it to them.

00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:08.480
You know, some people you get it or you

00:18:10.320 --> 00:18:10.600
don't. And the people who get it,

00:18:11.740 --> 00:18:12.240
we're not all in the same place.

00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:13.940
And it's great.

00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:15.860
[Speaker 1]: I'm interrupting you for a second because I

00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:18.460
think we were supposed to kill the the cron

00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.720
which starts the next meeting and it hasn't.

00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:22.940
Let me try to fix it. I'll talk to production

00:18:25.360 --> 00:18:25.860
[Speaker 0]: Do I wait or keep going?

00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:27.560
[Speaker 1]: in a second. Just wait a bit.

00:18:29.260 --> 00:18:29.440
I'm very sorry. I've given you the mic and

00:18:35.280 --> 00:18:35.440
then it just... Okay let me just check your

00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:35.940
production.

00:18:59.660 --> 00:18:59.720
What? All right, Jason.

00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:01.120
All right, Jacob, I'm going to put us

00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:02.320
manually back on track.

00:19:03.080 --> 00:19:03.580
So give me just a second.

00:19:04.220 --> 00:19:04.720
[Speaker 0]: Right.

00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:09.740
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to manually type the URL,

00:19:12.440 --> 00:19:12.720
because it's a janky setup that we've got

00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.440
right now, when whenever it's not working.

00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:20.900
All right. So tps slash slash bbb emacs first

00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:23.500
dot org html. No, that's not the 1.

00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:27.440
Let me try to type it.

00:19:27.900 --> 00:19:28.400
Probably. Bbbemaxfirst.

00:19:42.700 --> 00:19:43.180
L5H, R5D, BH0 Okay, we're getting back Okay,

00:19:44.380 --> 00:19:44.740
sorry folks about this We are,

00:19:45.360 --> 00:19:45.860
Jacob, We're back online.

00:19:46.800 --> 00:19:47.080
I'm really sorry about this.

00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:49.540
It's just that Sasha's script kicked in.

00:19:51.140 --> 00:19:51.280
I did tell you we were supposed to finish at

00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:54.060
30. And because Sasha is busy presenting in

00:19:54.940 --> 00:19:55.320
the other room, sadly,

00:19:57.100 --> 00:19:57.400
we got yanked again. So Jacob,

00:19:58.280 --> 00:19:58.780
I'm very sorry for the interruption.

00:20:01.220 --> 00:20:01.560
And you were retelling people about something

00:20:02.320 --> 00:20:02.820
you told me during the check-ins.

00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:04.940
Do you mind restarting this?

00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:09.660
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, sure. Well, you said I have the no

00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:12.480
small task of making the last words from

00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:14.640
presenters and not the organizers at

00:20:16.260 --> 00:20:16.500
EmacsConf. And I said,

00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.380
well, that's not hard at all.

00:20:20.540 --> 00:20:20.760
How many speakers have we had?

00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:24.860
30? And it's so incredible these past,

00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:27.080
you know, today and yesterday to have all

00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:29.960
been able to come together and not just share

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:34.420
our ideas and our code and how we do things,

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:38.300
but to share our faces and our voices and our

00:20:39.780 --> 00:20:40.120
lives, you know a little bit of our lives.

00:20:42.100 --> 00:20:42.380
You know to have the passion to even spend

00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:45.400
the time to on your weekend to watch this

00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:47.660
means that you have some sort of care about

00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:49.660
Emacs and it adds to your life.

00:20:51.820 --> 00:20:52.080
And you know those Emacs people aren't

00:20:53.620 --> 00:20:53.980
everywhere. I've tried to bring my friends

00:20:56.040 --> 00:20:56.320
onto Emacs and it seems like you know you're

00:20:58.900 --> 00:20:59.220
an Emacs person or you're not really an Emacs

00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:02.640
person. And those Emacs people can be really

00:21:04.840 --> 00:21:05.000
spread out. So it's great that we're able to

00:21:07.900 --> 00:21:08.000
come together and share a little bit of

00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:10.260
ourselves, a little bit of how we do things.

00:21:12.440 --> 00:21:12.720
And like I said in my talk,

00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:15.880
just increase our own joy in Emacs by coming

00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:19.540
together and being able to share our joy in

00:21:21.760 --> 00:21:21.900
Emacs. And of course, thank you to all the

00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:25.120
organizers and everyone who's contributed in

00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:28.380
any way. It means a lot to even the smallest

00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:30.200
member, the biggest member of our community.

00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:33.700
We're all really glad to be able to come

00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:36.520
together like this and share and meet each

00:21:37.820 --> 00:21:38.320
other and give nice talks.

00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:40.440
[Speaker 1]: Well, thank you so much,

00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:42.780
Jacob. And perhaps to reassure people,

00:21:44.900 --> 00:21:45.060
because yes, right now it feels like we are

00:21:47.040 --> 00:21:47.300
legions, all of us here in the same room

00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:48.400
watching the same thing.

00:21:50.740 --> 00:21:50.900
We are the Emacs' and that's a very good

00:21:52.540 --> 00:21:52.840
feeling to have. But you know,

00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:55.140
first, there's 1 thing that is certain,

00:21:58.380 --> 00:21:58.660
almost 99% certain, it's the fact that next

00:22:00.300 --> 00:22:00.800
year there'll probably be another EmacsConf

00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:03.340
and there will be more Emacs versions,

00:22:04.540 --> 00:22:04.940
there will be more augmented versions,

00:22:07.300 --> 00:22:07.480
there will be more people doing cool stuff on

00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:12.040
Melpa, on ELPA, etc. So it is still a vibrant

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:14.700
community. But in case you're craving this

00:22:17.260 --> 00:22:17.760
little extra in-person stuff,

00:22:20.280 --> 00:22:20.500
Sash and myself, we are maintaining a list of

00:22:21.560 --> 00:22:21.820
all the Emacs user group.

00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:23.080
This is on the Emacs wiki.

00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:24.440
This is what I'm sharing on my screen

00:22:27.500 --> 00:22:27.720
currently. And we try to organize them by

00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:30.340
regional region, sorry,

00:22:31.560 --> 00:22:32.020
parts of the world like North America,

00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.120
South America, Europe,

00:22:36.300 --> 00:22:36.680
Africa, Asia. And we have a list of upcoming

00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:39.500
events and a lot of them are still online.

00:22:41.420 --> 00:22:41.920
Ever since we had the entire pandemic stuff,

00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:47.440
a lot of the workshops moved online and,

00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:50.320
sorry, I had someone whispering in my ear.

00:22:53.100 --> 00:22:53.400
A lot of them moved online and they are still

00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.080
online now because they've realized it's a

00:22:57.100 --> 00:22:57.280
very great way to get more people in the same

00:22:59.640 --> 00:22:59.960
place. And whilst it's great to have

00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.920
in-person meetings, We do this with Emacs

00:23:05.140 --> 00:23:05.340
Paris. Emacs Paris actually is happening is

00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.840
it? I think, oh I'm going to need to tell

00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:10.280
Sasha that apparently yes we do not have the

00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:12.600
next event for Emacs Paris which is next

00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:15.140
Tuesday and it is in person but for everyone

00:23:18.580 --> 00:23:18.740
and including you Jacob if you find a

00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:20.640
workshop in North America that is working for

00:23:22.540 --> 00:23:23.020
you, I'm thinking about Emacs SF,

00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:24.940
which I've attended multiple times,

00:23:27.980 --> 00:23:28.220
and Emacs Austin as well,

00:23:29.060 --> 00:23:29.340
that I've been to once,

00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:31.780
I think, It would be a lovely experience and

00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:34.540
a way to, most of them are every month,

00:23:36.040 --> 00:23:36.160
it would be a good way for you to stay in

00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:39.440
touch and to continue this sense of

00:23:40.580 --> 00:23:41.080
in-person-ness about Emacs.

00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:46.800
[Speaker 0]: Wonderful. All right, thank you so much.

00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:49.400
Should I drop off of our call now and let you

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:50.500
close things up?

00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:52.760
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, we're probably gonna close thing up.

00:23:53.600 --> 00:23:53.940
Let me just check on Sasha.

00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:55.560
Sasha is obviously answering many many

00:23:57.180 --> 00:23:57.660
questions about how we are organizing

00:23:59.540 --> 00:23:59.640
EmacsConf. So Jacob, I'm gonna let you go.

00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.680
Thank you so much for your presentation and

00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:03.920
your answers. And maybe we'll see you next

00:24:05.020 --> 00:24:05.240
year. Or maybe a workshop.

00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:07.320
[Speaker 0]: Who knows? I'm so lucky I got you as my Q&A.

00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:10.760
When I saw you at my first Emacs Conf 2 years

00:24:12.740 --> 00:24:13.240
ago, I thought, maybe this guy will do mine.

00:24:18.840 --> 00:24:19.240
[Speaker 1]: Very nice. Thank you. I'm glad I was able to

00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:20.280
generate such a feeling.

00:24:21.600 --> 00:24:22.100
All right, I'll get going now.

00:24:23.260 --> 00:24:23.760
Jacob, have a wonderful evening.

00:24:23.940 --> 00:24:24.140
[Speaker 0]: And here you are. You too,

00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:24.900
see you later.

00:24:28.140 --> 00:24:28.320
[Speaker 1]: Bye-bye. And folks, what are we going to do

00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:30.520
right now? I'm going to set everything up so

00:24:32.520 --> 00:24:33.020
that we can get Sasha finished on the talk.

00:24:34.840 --> 00:24:35.060
If you're watching, squinting with both

00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:38.080
streams, you can go to Sasha's room,

00:24:39.520 --> 00:24:40.020
I mean, the development track,

00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:42.680
to maybe catch some of the answers by Sasha.

00:24:45.040 --> 00:24:45.160
Otherwise, we'll be back in roughly 5 to 10

00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:47.120
minutes to do the closing remarks on this

00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:48.040
channel. In the meantime,

00:24:48.840 --> 00:24:49.340
I'll put on some music.

00:24:51.300 --> 00:24:51.800
So bear with us and I'll see you shortly.

00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:16.160
And closing here. This BBB recording.

00:25:16.360 --> 00:25:16.860
Yay!