path: root/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-emms--emacs-multimedia-system-emms--yoni-rabkin--answers.vtt

WEBVTT


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[Speaker 0]: And I think we are live.

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Hi, Yanny, how are you doing?

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[Speaker 1]: Excellent, excellent. Doing very well,

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thank you.

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[Speaker 0]: So that was a wonderful presentation.

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I first want to commend you on your ability

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to both do the how the user encounters the

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MMS, how the developer might be interested

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about how it works, and I feel like you've

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done a wonderful job of talking to absolutely

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everyone in our audience,

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whatever their skill level.

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So thank you so much for this.

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that of course runs the risk of being,

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you know, good for some,

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but excellent for none.

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But hopefully the result is that people can

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get something out of it.

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I think it's very important to make sure that

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everyone feels that they have access to

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Emacs, they have access to EMMS,

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that they can do this in whatever capacity

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they want. It's for everyone.

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I really believe that.

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[Speaker 0]: Yeah, and I understand this risk about having

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a talk that is kind of a jack-of-all-trades,

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but frankly you've done a wonderful job of

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making it interesting for everyone,

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because also I think the parts worked really

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well, and people always had something to look

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forward in terms of their expertise of what

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particularly spoke to them.

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So thank you again. What I'm going to do,

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we have about 14 minutes of Q&A,

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So I'll invite people,

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as I usually do, to add their questions in

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the other pad that you can find on the talks

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or on IRC. You can also join us in the

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discussion. I will make sure this time to

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ping Sasha to open the Q&A.

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Can you open, I-V-E-M-M-S.

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All right, and in the meantime,

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whilst we wait for people to join us in the

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room, I will start reading some of the

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questions off the pad.

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So we had the first question about the music

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that we played during the launch break,

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and It's 1 of our dear friends,

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Shoshin Ganshangroh, a free album,

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Basement Dazed. I've put the link in the pad

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and we've been using Shoshin's music for the

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last 3 years, I think,

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and everyone, people are so excited.

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Some people say, why is it so noisy in the

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background? But it's just because there's 1

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part of the different tracks that sounds like

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static and it always gets people.

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We should probably do something about this,

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but frankly it makes me laugh every time.

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Starting with the first actual question,

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well actually it's a bit of a meme question,

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for the next Emacs Con,

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could we have an eMMS playlist to follow the

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talks along?

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[Speaker 1]: Oh that sounds like an excellent idea but I

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guess I'm wondering what they mean exactly by

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that. Is that a shareable playlist that we

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can pass along and just have people go to a

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URL and just be able to play that?

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I think that's an excellent idea.

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It should be a relatively low bandwidth

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process.

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[Speaker 0]: And it's typically the type of stuff that is

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right of our alley. I'm thinking about the

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ICS file that we produce for all the events

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that are related to Emacs.

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You know the workshop that happened in Paris

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or in New York, LA? Sasha compiles a list of

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all the events and when they happen,

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and then we provide this to everyone.

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And we can do very much the same with

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EmacsConf. You could have a playlist for

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EmacsConf 2023, where you get all the talks

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and perhaps also the Q&A sessions so that you

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can relieve the 16 hours of content that

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we're producing. That'd be great,

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that's a great idea I think.

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[Speaker 1]: Absolutely, and if there are any limitations

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in the Emacs playlist structure that things

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are missing in the playlist structure,

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then it would be a great impetus to implement

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those and extend the playlist structure.

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Because after all, it's Lisp,

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it really is data and functions all mixed

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together, so we can do that.

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It would be very interesting to dive into it

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and see what's missing.

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That would be even more informative than what

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it can do.

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[Speaker 0]: Great. All right, moving on to the next

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question. I like to use music and audiobooks

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in very different ways.

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With music, I like shuffling by artists and

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with audiobooks, I want to read sequentially

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and pick the same playlist over a couple of

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days or weeks. Do you have any tips for using

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these 2 opposing media's workflow?

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[Speaker 1]: Yes, so I have similar situations where I

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have very long endurance races that I watch,

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which I do all my media consumption is done

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via EMMS. I also listened to music.

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And so there's also a middle in between.

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There's 1 end in which you have popular

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music. These are standalone songs that are

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typically 3 to 4 minute long and they are

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best consumed in a random you know order

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because they are designed around,

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you know, a commercial radio distribution.

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I guess I'm dating myself by saying radio,

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but you know all the that.

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In the middle there are longer works like

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musicals and classical where these are units

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where they might be very long but you would

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have several tracks that you do want to have

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1 after the other, and you want to be able to

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stop and go to the next track.

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And then at the very, very other end,

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you have extremely long format,

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which is included in a single file,

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such as an audio book,

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a movie, a tutorial that you're watching,

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or in my case, you know,

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a 24 hour, the 24 hours of Le Mans,

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just the 24 hour race,

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which, you know, that's 1 heck of a file.

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So that is 1 of the reasons eMMS has a number

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of elements such as the meta playlist mode

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and multiple playlists.

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So I would say that they would open a number

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of playlists in eMMS, generate a number of

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playlists that have each class of media.

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So the shorter form songs,

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the more pop songs you have in 1 playlist

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where you can sort, shuffle it,

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you know, save it, do whatever you want.

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Then a separate playlist for the long form

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stuff. Sometimes that playlist will have even

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only 1 file in it if it's long enough,

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then have a key combination which takes you

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directly to 1 playlist or the other,

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and within the long-form playlist,

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looking at the bookmarking function of EMMS,

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which is designed around being able to save a

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particular stopping point or multiple

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stopping points, bookmarks in the audio,

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and being able to jump back into that audio.

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The point to remember about the bookmarking

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feature is that sometimes it really depends

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on you have to have the right back end.

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Not all back ends with replaying,

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not all types of media work well with a

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bookmarking function, and bug reports

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welcome. But also there are other backends

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such as MPV where you can configure it that

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when you quit playing the song or the media

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with, you know, cue internally.

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So sometimes the back end has to continue

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playing that song. That's what I do in order

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to, on 1 hand, switch over to a...

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I want to hear... I'm coding,

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I want to hear some music,

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I go to my playlist of short songs,

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then I'm sitting back and I want to watch a

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long form something from where I left off and

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there I go to the other playlist and use

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bookmarks or the features of the back end

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that I'm using.

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[Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you for the answer.

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We have about 7 minutes and we have more

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questions, so that's great.

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Moving on to the next 1.

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Is there a way to search a music selection by

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lyrics? Assuming those lyrics are in the

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metadata or are available elsewhere,

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it would be neat to call songs up from the

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lyrics to the song. Perhaps is this

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implemented so that you can all aliases,

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so they can use aliases for the song that you

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like, defining those aliases or shortcuts

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either inside or outside eMMS?

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Okay, so I think you've got 2 questions.

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First about the lyrics and then the aliases.

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so it's effectively not possible to do

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right now. There's a sense in which it is,

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but not really. What actually needs to

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happen? The problem is that the caching

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system is extremely naive.

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It's just really a hash that's written to

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disk. And maybe now with SQLite integration

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or other or just the fact that computers have

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a lot more speed and space than they used to

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have, we need to expand the cache to be a lot

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more greedy and a lot more flexible so that

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we can store things such as lyrics in as part

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of the metadata. There's no reason not to do

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that. Unless your collection would have to be

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truly enormous in order to slow things down.

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We wouldn't even need to compress the lyrics

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in order to store them like that.

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But that is a goal. So our rewrite of the

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cache is currently in progress,

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and the goal is to have a system where you

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can put any related information,

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including lyrics, and map that to a

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particular piece of the media,

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be it a URL or a... So you could have in a

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sense, you could have a URL to a lecture and

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the metadata associated would be some text,

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some notes or something else like that.

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[Speaker 0]: Right, so that was about the lyrics.

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I'm not sure how it answers the question

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about the aliases. I mean you can still

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filter what you've mentioned about the cache.

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I think it's... Do we consider the aliases to

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be anything within the metadata?

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[Speaker 1]: No, you're right. That is a separate

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question. I don't have a great answer for

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that right now.

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[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Well, we'll put a pin on this

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and we can return to it.

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You can return to it at a later stage.

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Yeah. All right, moving on to the next

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question, then. I'll just,

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we'll put a pin on this.

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All right, next question.

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Are there plans for managing metadata with

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online resource backends,

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i.e. Discogs or music brains?

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What about something like Beats and Emacs or

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part of the EMMS?

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so that's an active discussion on the

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mailing list right now.

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We don't want to replicate what Beats does

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very, very well in eMMS.

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We don't want a clunky interface with Beats.

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We do want some kind of,

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and so it's hard to tell exactly where to

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draw that line. So the big answer is yes,

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absolutely, there is a plan to do that.

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The details become complicated because for 1

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thing, the backend, the database that

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MusicBrain uses, AcoustID,

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I don't remember if AcoustID is the binary or

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the database, but that's actually for

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non-commercial use only.

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So not only do you need to compile a piece of

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software on your computer as a shim,

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which is what you need to do in order to set

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up beats to do fingerprinting.

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But it also crosses this line between

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completely free software to completely free

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software interfacing with a non-commercial

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only service. So a lot of the discussion

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that's going on now is what is the contour?

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Where would be where we would be effective

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for EMMS to do management and where not?

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For 1 thing, I would love to be able to...

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1 thing that we definitely would love to be

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able to do is when you hit E on a file and

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you get all the metadata to be able to then

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give a command to say,

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hey, play to music brains and see if you can

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improve that metadata.

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Do you have better metadata,

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more complete metadata to complete that?

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That is definitely in the pipeline.

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How best to do it, that's a discussion.

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[Speaker 0]: Okay, Yoni, we have about 2 minutes until we

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need to go to the next talk.

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Okay, I'll risk it. 1 more question and a

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short answer if you can.

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Have the developers considered using Emacs

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customized functionality to persistently

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store settings when using eMMS setup discover

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players?

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[Speaker 1]: Yes, absolutely. That's another active place,

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especially with the discover players.

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How to do it exactly without annoying people

00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:18.340
and clobbering their own settings,

00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:20.680
we just need to be very careful about that.

00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:23.540
Yes, that's in the coming releases.

00:14:26.520 --> 00:14:26.940
[Speaker 0]: All right, well, Younif,

00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:28.400
thank you so much for your time.

00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.640
Feel free to stay in the room.

00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:31.240
I see that some people have started joining

00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220
on BBB. If you have more questions,

00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:37.020
feel free to unmute yourself and ask them

00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:39.900
live. Younid, I could ask you also to perhaps

00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:41.760
answer the question. I've put the link to the

00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:44.480
pad in the BBB chat, so if you look at the...

00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:47.640
Here, I think, we're not mirrored on BBB.

00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:49.280
If you look at the left you should be able to

00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:51.580
see the chat and the questions and if you

00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:52.840
could just answer the last question that

00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.640
would be great. For us on the general track

00:14:57.980 --> 00:14:58.180
we will be moving to the next talk and

00:14:59.700 --> 00:14:59.820
Yannick do you have any last thing to say in

00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:02.900
[Speaker 1]: Thank everyone who put together the

00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:04.820
conference and thank you to everyone who

00:15:06.680 --> 00:15:07.180
helps with the EMMS.

00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:08.440
[Speaker 0]: 10 seconds? All right,

00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:09.440
well, thank you so much,

00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:11.440
Yoni. We'll probably see you later.

00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:17.860
Bye-bye. Wonderful. And I think we are off

00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:18.760
air. Thank you so much,

00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.920
Juni. I need to step out and go take care of

00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.760
[Speaker 1]: Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much.

00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:24.520
[Speaker 0]: the next talk. Bye-bye.

00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:25.760
And just to, I forgot to mention,

00:15:27.160 --> 00:15:27.260
but you can still talk here and everything is

00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:28.620
still being recorded. So,

00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:28.940
I'll see you later.

00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:32.820
[Speaker 2]: Excellent. Bye-bye. Bye.

00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.100
[Speaker 3]: Oh, hello.

00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:41.100
[Speaker 1]: Wait, you're still, I cannot hear you yet.

00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:43.080
[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this

00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:43.580
conference.

00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:12.780
[Speaker 2]: Okay.

00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:18.400
[Speaker 3]: Can you hear me now? I just wanted to say hi

00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:20.320
and thank you. My name's Grant.

00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:24.220
I've, you helped me contribute to EMMS maybe

00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:26.980
2 or 3 years ago. I was trying to do the

00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:28.980
[Speaker 2]: So,

00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.840
[Speaker 3]: track tag stuff. yeah.

00:16:32.148 --> 00:16:32.571
So I just wanted to say thank you.

00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:35.680
[Speaker 1]: Thank you for continuing and going through

00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:38.680
that entire process. I know that 1 of the

00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.520
things that happens is that people want to

00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.440
contribute, but it's not as slick as GitHub

00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.580
and stuff like that, especially with the

00:16:53.400 --> 00:16:53.900
copper assignment. And objectively,

00:16:56.920 --> 00:16:57.420
it's not that. It's just harder than what

00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.180
they imagine it might be.

00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:01.680
[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Well, I appreciate it.

00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:03.440
I think you're doing a wonderful job as a

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.660
maintainer. I still hang out on the list and

00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:09.880
enjoy listening in on the discussions.

00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:10.460
So.

00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:14.626
[Speaker 2]: Yeah. But that's it. I think that's it.

00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:17.200
I think that's it. And I think that's it.

00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.890
And I think that's it.

00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:23.660
I appreciate it. And I'll leave you to all of

00:17:27.781 --> 00:17:27.811
you to go on from being a product.

00:17:28.088 --> 00:17:28.118
And that she valued to all of us long term

00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:28.680
being a project.

00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:31.960
[Speaker 1]: If you're not super duper active,

00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:33.720
being there long term,

00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:37.860
people tend to find it easier trying to

00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:41.060
continue contributing to the project if

00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:42.620
there's a consistency there,

00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.020
if there isn't a churn,

00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.160
if there is a kind of a core group.

00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:52.940
I guess it's like, you think it's constant.

00:17:58.280 --> 00:17:58.780
Eliezer Etzke and RMS,

00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:00.920
whatever on the next mailing list,

00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:03.540
You know, okay, there are certain people that

00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:05.800
I think so. So thank you for that.

00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:06.840
That's very important.

00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:08.040
That helps.

00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:12.940
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I'm, I feel like when I started using

00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.540
EMMS several years ago,

00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.820
it's, it's improved a lot since then.

00:18:19.540 --> 00:18:20.040
And I notice your focus on helping new users

00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:22.800
get started quickly. And I think the talk

00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:24.160
today will help with that too.

00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.660
So

00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:32.700
[Speaker 1]: yeah, I want to put you know,

00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:34.360
the, especially the TLDR,

00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:37.640
like how to start it on the link that to the

00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:44.380
website, find somehow that we can get on to

00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:53.400
prepare for that. And this together.

00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.200
Now, question for you,

00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:58.620
Where would you like to see EMMS go?

00:18:59.440 --> 00:18:59.820
Where do you see it landing?

00:19:02.780 --> 00:19:02.900
What do you feel like this is what this is

00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:05.040
we're sorely missing these things?

00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:10.240
[Speaker 3]: I don't know. I mean, I picked it up,

00:19:13.540 --> 00:19:13.940
because I both use it to play my music

00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:17.320
collection, but also, like I record my own

00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:20.320
music. And I wanted to be able to edit my

00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:24.000
metadata in Emacs, because editing metadata

00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:29.220
elsewhere sucks. And so that's kind of why I

00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:30.560
got involved with that.

00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:33.940
And I was like, being able to edit metadata,

00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:37.900
especially for content that maybe you're

00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:42.180
creating or because I have a bunch of files

00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:44.700
of just unlabeled stuff I've recorded on,

00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:45.780
you know, different quarters,

00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:47.520
things like that. So that's kind of where I

00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:50.740
was focusing on it. It's the only media tool

00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:52.720
that lets me do that, you know,

00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.940
I can play the music back and have quick

00:19:58.260 --> 00:19:58.380
editing. So I know there was a couple of

00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:01.120
things we had talked about in terms of maybe

00:20:03.260 --> 00:20:03.480
improving kind of the user interface for the

00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.940
tag editor, things like that.

00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:09.600
So I don't have any grand visions for where

00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:15.800
EMMS should go. I know pretty much all the

00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:17.420
things I've heard about it already.

00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:20.700
You can hook up to GNU FM,

00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:22.440
the Scrabbling Service,

00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.700
and all that kind of stuff.

00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:27.180
I don't really feel like it's missing much,

00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:29.280
especially being able to choose the back

00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:32.320
ends. I guess, if anything,

00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.220
it's the interface. How can it be even more

00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:38.660
intuitive for users? And I think that,

00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:41.820
you know, we need more people playing around

00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:43.880
with it, I guess. Yeah.

00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:46.420
[Speaker 2]: I think a really good

00:20:47.520 --> 00:20:47.800
[Speaker 1]: Well, yeah. example of that is,

00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:49.600
because I'm sure there are lots of people

00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:50.740
playing around with it,

00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:51.960
arriving at a conclusion,

00:20:53.860 --> 00:20:54.360
keeping it to themselves and moving on.

00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.300
Yeah. Which, and I know that a lot of bits of

00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:02.160
software put a send a bug report feature in

00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.020
and stuff like that and no 1 uses those

00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:08.000
either. So that's the frictional cost.

00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:10.940
I think the context switch for people between

00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:16.360
this doesn't work to actually formulating in

00:21:17.840 --> 00:21:18.340
words what didn't work,

00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:21.600
that is a very expensive context which most

00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:24.980
people will not do. And we're poorer for

00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:32.660
that. So, I think that when we integrate

00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.240
music brains and other things like that into.

00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:37.960
Now, of course, music brains will probably,

00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.380
it would be very funny if you pull up your

00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:43.660
stuff, right? Something that you wrote and

00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.280
you say, hey, music brains match this and

00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:49.000
it's not there, then it'll probably suggest

00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:52.220
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I've heard that.

00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:52.940
[Speaker 1]: some wild things. Yeah,

00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.400
because there are, there was a system I was

00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:02.220
looking at its code for researching stuff for

00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:04.700
EMS And I'm trying to remember what it's

00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:06.040
named. It begins with a J,

00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.660
it's this media player,

00:22:13.780 --> 00:22:13.940
free floss media player that it's like a

00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:17.520
media server that can cast to a television

00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:21.220
and stuff like that. And I asked it to

00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:24.780
automatically label things and the results

00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:28.380
were horrible. It thought that half of my

00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.400
songs were movies. It thought that JPEGs were

00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:36.220
songs. It just, it did some,

00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:41.020
it did incredibly, it's not a solved problem,

00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:45.160
I think. So the, what I'm thinking with

00:22:49.340 --> 00:22:49.540
MusicBrainz and those services is that you

00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:52.240
hit a button and you have you get another

00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:57.240
pane with a suggestion and you either and you

00:22:59.060 --> 00:22:59.240
can copy through you can say okay copy this

00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.760
and this in this field over or reject the

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:04.460
suggestion and maybe get another 1.

00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:05.280
So,

00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.660
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I like that a lot.

00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.480
That's more like a diff,

00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:11.640
right? Like you get the diff between the 2

00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:14.040
and you can apply which changes you like.

00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:16.080
Yeah. Was it Jellyfin?

00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:18.720
Is that... Jellyfin? Yeah,

00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:19.960
[Speaker 1]: Jellyfin, yes.

00:23:22.340 --> 00:23:22.840
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, And when that happened,

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.460
did it clobber all your metadata?

00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:27.940
Or does it just label stuff?

00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:29.360
[Speaker 2]: No, it...

00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:38.740
[Speaker 1]: Escalate things somewhere inside it and to

00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:49.340
looking for really, not allow me to do very

00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.080
easily. So I was, so, you know,

00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:56.960
on 1 hand, it makes me feel,

00:23:58.980 --> 00:23:59.120
oh, we're not the only ones dealing with

00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:00.840
this. We're not the only ones struggling with

00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.800
this. On the other hand,

00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:05.820
it would be nice if that's a paragon that we

00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:08.680
can look to and say, this is a wonderful way

00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:11.540
of doing it. Let's incorporate as much of

00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:15.520
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's a tricky problem,

00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:18.620
especially if you're modifying people's media

00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:20.280
files you know so

00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:23.420
[Speaker 1]: that as we can. yeah I'm also very convinced

00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:32.060
that so I'm not a mainframe for MMS because

00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:35.520
I'm old and curmudgeonly essentially in my,

00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:37.900
in the way they do it.

00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:40.520
And honestly, I rarely ever,

00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:43.180
I use the MMS browser when I need to debug

00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:44.660
the MS browser. I don't,

00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.240
I use very simple commands and I even rarely

00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:50.940
look at the playlists.

00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.220
That was 1 of the things because when I got

00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:57.100
into MMS originally when my eyesight started

00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:00.140
going so I had to rely less and less on GUI

00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300
interfaces. So that was,

00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:06.840
so to this day that's how I use EMMS.

00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:09.060
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's interesting.

00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:13.760
I remember running into a browser bug because

00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980
I think just my age, like,

00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:18.340
I want to be able to tab through and like

00:25:20.060 --> 00:25:20.560
that was a huge that that changed recently

00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:22.800
right where you tab and it unfolds in the

00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:27.980
browser but yeah I realized that people use

00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:31.100
emms in so many different ways just like any

00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:36.220
piece of emacs there's there's many ways to

00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.440
do it but appreciate your time I'm gonna

00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.260
actually put together this Christmas tree

00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:43.900
[Speaker 0]: So. Wonderful.

00:25:45.260 --> 00:25:45.660
[Speaker 3]: behind me. Yeah, just wanted to say hi,

00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:51.400
meet you in person. But yeah.

00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:54.840
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, excellent. I appreciate it a lot and we

00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:55.580
generate

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:00.260
[Speaker 2]: some interesting questions.

00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.280
Yeah, thank you.

00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:03.960
[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this

00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:04.460
conference.

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:13.980
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to have a look at the questions

00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:14.560
here.

00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.940
Let's see. Let's see. So there is,

00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:33.260
okay. There's a question here.

00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:34.680
I like what you said about balancing the

00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:36.380
concern for software freedom with the worry

00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:38.560
that this might alienate the package user.

00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:40.120
I wonder if you have advice for other

00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:41.820
maintainers how to communicate this sort of

00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:44.120
thing diplomatically? Yes,

00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:46.160
when you have to deny implementing a feature

00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.980
for a freedom reason. This in fact happens

00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:56.320
all the time. A recent example of this was a

00:26:58.380 --> 00:26:58.580
YouTube download, right,

00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040
the YouTube download feature.

00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:04.540
At the time, okay, so stepping back,

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.940
the request was to have a YouTube download

00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:12.440
feature integrated strongly into eMMS so that

00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:16.640
you put in a YouTube URL and you can download

00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.140
the video and play it.

00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:22.280
And the question isn't really whether you can

00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.120
chain YouTube Downloader or 1 of those things

00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:27.100
into your EMMS configuration.

00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.520
You can do whatever you want.

00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:31.340
But the question is, does EMMS actually

00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.740
integrate with it really,

00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:36.040
really strongly to the extent where it tells

00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:38.140
you oh you don't need to download install

00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:40.820
please go ahead and install that or whatever

00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.180
and at the time we checked it we found out

00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:46.120
that you know the version that we were

00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:49.780
looking at of the YouTube download or YTDLP

00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.220
or whatever it was called,

00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:56.580
actually downloaded a good amount of

00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.540
proprietary JavaScript onto your machine and

00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:02.480
ran it, just as if you were going on to the

00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:06.880
YouTube page, which is not for me to tell

00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:10.480
people not to do if they want to do that,

00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.460
but it's absolutely for me not to cause to

00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:19.040
happen on the user's machine without them.

00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:21.660
1 of the last thing that I want to do in the

00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:26.180
world is have a user inside Emacs press a

00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:30.160
button and have proprietary software get

00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:32.540
downloaded behind their back and run on their

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.420
machine that would be disastrous so we had to

00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:41.600
say no we had to say that's I'm sorry that's

00:28:47.060 --> 00:28:47.380
beyond the pale and in fact in doing so some

00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:51.420
people who were using this system said,

00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:54.400
actually I had no idea it was doing this

00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.040
behind my back. I thought it was just magic.

00:28:58.860 --> 00:28:59.360
I thought it was a YouTube video without any

00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:01.780
freedom issues. I'm going to look into it or

00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:03.620
I'm going to stop using it.

00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:11.680
So my advice would be Stand firm and just be

00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.380
Not not preachy. Don't tell people what they

00:29:19.580 --> 00:29:19.960
need to do be very clear about what you stand

00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:22.400
for and what the project stands for,

00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.940
and so they very clearly know where you

00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:30.960
stand. And I think that people actually

00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:37.040
appreciate that more than a political answer,

00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:44.040
right? That has been my experience.

00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:50.000
Now, excuse me, taking into account that 1 or

00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:52.700
2 people will tell you,

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.440
this is terrible. I'm leaving.

00:30:00.550 --> 00:30:00.625
[Speaker 2]: If you do this,

00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:01.620
[Speaker 1]: This is useless. you're free software or

00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900
whatever, and just leave.

00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.360
But some people are ornery.

00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:09.620
That's not necessarily something bad that you

00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.180
did. But that has happened.

00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:14.700
There are multiple stories.

00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:17.080
Because the MMS is so old,

00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:20.580
there are multiple points in which non-free

00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:24.140
software intersected with the EMS because of

00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:28.820
multimedia and we had to go the other

00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:33.800
direction and so far it has served EMS well

00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.740
like the project has died as a result.

00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:40.200
Of course, can't prove a negative,

00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:42.540
don't know where we would be if we had taken,

00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:44.860
gone down that route. I'm pretty sure we

00:30:46.100 --> 00:30:46.600
would need a new ELPA,

00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.360
and I think being so clearly integrated with

00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:55.540
emacs is a huge benefit to eMMS because it's

00:30:57.660 --> 00:30:58.160
it allows people to install it very easily.

00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:09.020
And those are all the questions that I can

00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:09.520
see.

00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:15.560
[Speaker 2]: You