WEBVTT 00:00:06.140 --> 00:00:06.640 [Speaker 0]: And I think we are live. 00:00:07.580 --> 00:00:08.080 Hi, Yanny, how are you doing? 00:00:10.460 --> 00:00:10.760 [Speaker 1]: Excellent, excellent. Doing very well, 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.460 thank you. 00:00:13.980 --> 00:00:14.480 [Speaker 0]: So that was a wonderful presentation. 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:17.940 I first want to commend you on your ability 00:00:22.040 --> 00:00:22.200 to both do the how the user encounters the 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:25.460 MMS, how the developer might be interested 00:00:28.680 --> 00:00:28.920 about how it works, and I feel like you've 00:00:30.720 --> 00:00:31.200 done a wonderful job of talking to absolutely 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:32.200 everyone in our audience, 00:00:32.840 --> 00:00:33.120 whatever their skill level. 00:00:34.120 --> 00:00:34.620 So thank you so much for this. 00:00:37.800 --> 00:00:38.300 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, that of course runs the risk of being, 00:00:41.580 --> 00:00:41.940 you know, good for some, 00:00:42.980 --> 00:00:43.480 but excellent for none. 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:47.280 But hopefully the result is that people can 00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:48.880 get something out of it. 00:00:51.820 --> 00:00:52.080 I think it's very important to make sure that 00:00:55.680 --> 00:00:55.900 everyone feels that they have access to 00:00:57.239 --> 00:00:57.739 Emacs, they have access to EMMS, 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:01.140 that they can do this in whatever capacity 00:01:02.800 --> 00:01:03.300 they want. It's for everyone. 00:01:05.440 --> 00:01:05.940 I really believe that. 00:01:09.440 --> 00:01:09.720 [Speaker 0]: Yeah, and I understand this risk about having 00:01:10.680 --> 00:01:11.180 a talk that is kind of a jack-of-all-trades, 00:01:14.440 --> 00:01:14.940 but frankly you've done a wonderful job of 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.060 making it interesting for everyone, 00:01:19.540 --> 00:01:19.900 because also I think the parts worked really 00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:22.000 well, and people always had something to look 00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:24.479 forward in terms of their expertise of what 00:01:25.360 --> 00:01:25.680 particularly spoke to them. 00:01:27.560 --> 00:01:27.720 So thank you again. What I'm going to do, 00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:29.940 we have about 14 minutes of Q&A, 00:01:30.760 --> 00:01:31.080 So I'll invite people, 00:01:33.400 --> 00:01:33.520 as I usually do, to add their questions in 00:01:35.320 --> 00:01:35.760 the other pad that you can find on the talks 00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:38.760 or on IRC. You can also join us in the 00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:40.320 discussion. I will make sure this time to 00:01:42.180 --> 00:01:42.680 ping Sasha to open the Q&A. 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:45.180 Can you open, I-V-E-M-M-S. 00:01:48.700 --> 00:01:49.200 All right, and in the meantime, 00:01:50.940 --> 00:01:51.040 whilst we wait for people to join us in the 00:01:52.360 --> 00:01:52.540 room, I will start reading some of the 00:01:53.960 --> 00:01:54.460 questions off the pad. 00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:57.520 So we had the first question about the music 00:01:58.780 --> 00:01:59.280 that we played during the launch break, 00:02:01.320 --> 00:02:01.560 and It's 1 of our dear friends, 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:05.700 Shoshin Ganshangroh, a free album, 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:09.720 Basement Dazed. I've put the link in the pad 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:12.660 and we've been using Shoshin's music for the 00:02:13.420 --> 00:02:13.920 last 3 years, I think, 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:15.560 and everyone, people are so excited. 00:02:17.220 --> 00:02:17.360 Some people say, why is it so noisy in the 00:02:18.480 --> 00:02:18.800 background? But it's just because there's 1 00:02:20.940 --> 00:02:21.420 part of the different tracks that sounds like 00:02:24.280 --> 00:02:24.520 static and it always gets people. 00:02:25.900 --> 00:02:26.040 We should probably do something about this, 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:28.020 but frankly it makes me laugh every time. 00:02:30.460 --> 00:02:30.920 Starting with the first actual question, 00:02:32.640 --> 00:02:33.140 well actually it's a bit of a meme question, 00:02:34.340 --> 00:02:34.640 for the next Emacs Con, 00:02:37.280 --> 00:02:37.440 could we have an eMMS playlist to follow the 00:02:37.760 --> 00:02:38.260 talks along? 00:02:43.940 --> 00:02:44.060 [Speaker 1]: Oh that sounds like an excellent idea but I 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:46.720 guess I'm wondering what they mean exactly by 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:49.280 that. Is that a shareable playlist that we 00:02:54.560 --> 00:02:54.720 can pass along and just have people go to a 00:02:56.320 --> 00:02:56.600 URL and just be able to play that? 00:02:58.620 --> 00:02:59.060 I think that's an excellent idea. 00:03:00.660 --> 00:03:01.160 It should be a relatively low bandwidth 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:02.280 process. 00:03:06.580 --> 00:03:06.740 [Speaker 0]: And it's typically the type of stuff that is 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:11.000 right of our alley. I'm thinking about the 00:03:15.480 --> 00:03:15.980 ICS file that we produce for all the events 00:03:17.020 --> 00:03:17.320 that are related to Emacs. 00:03:18.820 --> 00:03:19.240 You know the workshop that happened in Paris 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:22.500 or in New York, LA? Sasha compiles a list of 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:23.920 all the events and when they happen, 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:25.760 and then we provide this to everyone. 00:03:27.040 --> 00:03:27.160 And we can do very much the same with 00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:29.580 EmacsConf. You could have a playlist for 00:03:31.980 --> 00:03:32.420 EmacsConf 2023, where you get all the talks 00:03:34.760 --> 00:03:34.900 and perhaps also the Q&A sessions so that you 00:03:36.780 --> 00:03:36.960 can relieve the 16 hours of content that 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:38.200 we're producing. That'd be great, 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:39.740 that's a great idea I think. 00:03:43.660 --> 00:03:44.160 [Speaker 1]: Absolutely, and if there are any limitations 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:48.420 in the Emacs playlist structure that things 00:03:49.640 --> 00:03:50.140 are missing in the playlist structure, 00:03:53.040 --> 00:03:53.480 then it would be a great impetus to implement 00:03:55.080 --> 00:03:55.520 those and extend the playlist structure. 00:03:57.380 --> 00:03:57.860 Because after all, it's Lisp, 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:01.620 it really is data and functions all mixed 00:04:03.160 --> 00:04:03.580 together, so we can do that. 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:06.360 It would be very interesting to dive into it 00:04:07.000 --> 00:04:07.420 and see what's missing. 00:04:10.020 --> 00:04:10.240 That would be even more informative than what 00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:11.180 it can do. 00:04:14.900 --> 00:04:15.060 [Speaker 0]: Great. All right, moving on to the next 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:17.480 question. I like to use music and audiobooks 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:18.740 in very different ways. 00:04:21.440 --> 00:04:21.600 With music, I like shuffling by artists and 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:23.800 with audiobooks, I want to read sequentially 00:04:27.260 --> 00:04:27.380 and pick the same playlist over a couple of 00:04:29.240 --> 00:04:29.540 days or weeks. Do you have any tips for using 00:04:30.860 --> 00:04:31.360 these 2 opposing media's workflow? 00:04:38.520 --> 00:04:38.940 [Speaker 1]: Yes, so I have similar situations where I 00:04:43.920 --> 00:04:44.420 have very long endurance races that I watch, 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:47.440 which I do all my media consumption is done 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:51.220 via EMMS. I also listened to music. 00:04:54.020 --> 00:04:54.520 And so there's also a middle in between. 00:04:57.980 --> 00:04:58.480 There's 1 end in which you have popular 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:02.020 music. These are standalone songs that are 00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:05.080 typically 3 to 4 minute long and they are 00:05:07.900 --> 00:05:08.400 best consumed in a random you know order 00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:10.280 because they are designed around, 00:05:12.080 --> 00:05:12.580 you know, a commercial radio distribution. 00:05:15.140 --> 00:05:15.580 I guess I'm dating myself by saying radio, 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:17.620 but you know all the that. 00:05:20.940 --> 00:05:21.440 In the middle there are longer works like 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:26.600 musicals and classical where these are units 00:05:30.200 --> 00:05:30.360 where they might be very long but you would 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:33.420 have several tracks that you do want to have 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:35.800 1 after the other, and you want to be able to 00:05:38.360 --> 00:05:38.860 stop and go to the next track. 00:05:40.760 --> 00:05:41.260 And then at the very, very other end, 00:05:44.020 --> 00:05:44.520 you have extremely long format, 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:46.860 which is included in a single file, 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:48.420 such as an audio book, 00:05:51.400 --> 00:05:51.900 a movie, a tutorial that you're watching, 00:05:54.100 --> 00:05:54.320 or in my case, you know, 00:05:56.580 --> 00:05:57.040 a 24 hour, the 24 hours of Le Mans, 00:05:58.040 --> 00:05:58.440 just the 24 hour race, 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:01.620 which, you know, that's 1 heck of a file. 00:06:07.380 --> 00:06:07.660 So that is 1 of the reasons eMMS has a number 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:10.640 of elements such as the meta playlist mode 00:06:11.260 --> 00:06:11.760 and multiple playlists. 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:16.480 So I would say that they would open a number 00:06:19.540 --> 00:06:19.680 of playlists in eMMS, generate a number of 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:26.540 playlists that have each class of media. 00:06:28.940 --> 00:06:29.320 So the shorter form songs, 00:06:33.580 --> 00:06:34.080 the more pop songs you have in 1 playlist 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:36.140 where you can sort, shuffle it, 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:38.300 you know, save it, do whatever you want. 00:06:41.980 --> 00:06:42.360 Then a separate playlist for the long form 00:06:44.340 --> 00:06:44.840 stuff. Sometimes that playlist will have even 00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:49.460 only 1 file in it if it's long enough, 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.300 then have a key combination which takes you 00:06:55.280 --> 00:06:55.780 directly to 1 playlist or the other, 00:06:57.340 --> 00:06:57.840 and within the long-form playlist, 00:07:01.980 --> 00:07:02.480 looking at the bookmarking function of EMMS, 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:06.660 which is designed around being able to save a 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:10.580 particular stopping point or multiple 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:12.540 stopping points, bookmarks in the audio, 00:07:15.300 --> 00:07:15.800 and being able to jump back into that audio. 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:19.100 The point to remember about the bookmarking 00:07:23.720 --> 00:07:24.220 feature is that sometimes it really depends 00:07:25.960 --> 00:07:26.460 on you have to have the right back end. 00:07:28.900 --> 00:07:29.400 Not all back ends with replaying, 00:07:33.120 --> 00:07:33.220 not all types of media work well with a 00:07:36.200 --> 00:07:36.660 bookmarking function, and bug reports 00:07:38.960 --> 00:07:39.460 welcome. But also there are other backends 00:07:44.820 --> 00:07:45.140 such as MPV where you can configure it that 00:07:49.860 --> 00:07:50.360 when you quit playing the song or the media 00:07:55.080 --> 00:07:55.580 with, you know, cue internally. 00:07:58.140 --> 00:07:58.640 So sometimes the back end has to continue 00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:04.700 playing that song. That's what I do in order 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:08.060 to, on 1 hand, switch over to a... 00:08:09.620 --> 00:08:10.000 I want to hear... I'm coding, 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:11.240 I want to hear some music, 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:13.360 I go to my playlist of short songs, 00:08:16.280 --> 00:08:16.560 then I'm sitting back and I want to watch a 00:08:20.340 --> 00:08:20.540 long form something from where I left off and 00:08:22.420 --> 00:08:22.740 there I go to the other playlist and use 00:08:26.140 --> 00:08:26.380 bookmarks or the features of the back end 00:08:26.780 --> 00:08:27.280 that I'm using. 00:08:31.200 --> 00:08:31.700 [Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you for the answer. 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:34.679 We have about 7 minutes and we have more 00:08:35.280 --> 00:08:35.780 questions, so that's great. 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:37.940 Moving on to the next 1. 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:40.240 Is there a way to search a music selection by 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:42.240 lyrics? Assuming those lyrics are in the 00:08:43.580 --> 00:08:44.080 metadata or are available elsewhere, 00:08:46.300 --> 00:08:46.400 it would be neat to call songs up from the 00:08:48.660 --> 00:08:49.160 lyrics to the song. Perhaps is this 00:08:50.860 --> 00:08:51.360 implemented so that you can all aliases, 00:08:54.560 --> 00:08:54.720 so they can use aliases for the song that you 00:08:56.640 --> 00:08:57.100 like, defining those aliases or shortcuts 00:08:58.200 --> 00:08:58.680 either inside or outside eMMS? 00:08:59.760 --> 00:09:00.060 Okay, so I think you've got 2 questions. 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:02.000 First about the lyrics and then the aliases. 00:09:08.360 --> 00:09:08.560 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so it's effectively not possible to do 00:09:10.880 --> 00:09:11.120 right now. There's a sense in which it is, 00:09:14.820 --> 00:09:15.020 but not really. What actually needs to 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.320 happen? The problem is that the caching 00:09:21.780 --> 00:09:22.280 system is extremely naive. 00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:24.960 It's just really a hash that's written to 00:09:30.560 --> 00:09:31.060 disk. And maybe now with SQLite integration 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:35.380 or other or just the fact that computers have 00:09:39.220 --> 00:09:39.440 a lot more speed and space than they used to 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:43.580 have, we need to expand the cache to be a lot 00:09:47.020 --> 00:09:47.520 more greedy and a lot more flexible so that 00:09:52.580 --> 00:09:52.860 we can store things such as lyrics in as part 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:56.200 of the metadata. There's no reason not to do 00:10:02.220 --> 00:10:02.440 that. Unless your collection would have to be 00:10:06.560 --> 00:10:07.060 truly enormous in order to slow things down. 00:10:09.860 --> 00:10:10.200 We wouldn't even need to compress the lyrics 00:10:11.320 --> 00:10:11.820 in order to store them like that. 00:10:15.920 --> 00:10:16.120 But that is a goal. So our rewrite of the 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:18.340 cache is currently in progress, 00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:21.940 and the goal is to have a system where you 00:10:24.920 --> 00:10:25.420 can put any related information, 00:10:30.060 --> 00:10:30.220 including lyrics, and map that to a 00:10:31.400 --> 00:10:31.900 particular piece of the media, 00:10:36.900 --> 00:10:37.060 be it a URL or a... So you could have in a 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:40.240 sense, you could have a URL to a lecture and 00:10:44.440 --> 00:10:44.800 the metadata associated would be some text, 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:48.100 some notes or something else like that. 00:10:51.140 --> 00:10:51.380 [Speaker 0]: Right, so that was about the lyrics. 00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:53.260 I'm not sure how it answers the question 00:10:54.560 --> 00:10:54.960 about the aliases. I mean you can still 00:10:56.380 --> 00:10:56.880 filter what you've mentioned about the cache. 00:10:59.240 --> 00:10:59.440 I think it's... Do we consider the aliases to 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:01.620 be anything within the metadata? 00:11:08.040 --> 00:11:08.540 [Speaker 1]: No, you're right. That is a separate 00:11:12.380 --> 00:11:12.540 question. I don't have a great answer for 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:13.480 that right now. 00:11:16.280 --> 00:11:16.500 [Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Well, we'll put a pin on this 00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:17.940 and we can return to it. 00:11:19.690 --> 00:11:19.840 You can return to it at a later stage. 00:11:21.880 --> 00:11:22.080 Yeah. All right, moving on to the next 00:11:22.800 --> 00:11:23.160 question, then. I'll just, 00:11:25.180 --> 00:11:25.680 we'll put a pin on this. 00:11:26.420 --> 00:11:26.920 All right, next question. 00:11:29.020 --> 00:11:29.220 Are there plans for managing metadata with 00:11:30.040 --> 00:11:30.540 online resource backends, 00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:32.440 i.e. Discogs or music brains? 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:34.540 What about something like Beats and Emacs or 00:11:34.920 --> 00:11:35.420 part of the EMMS? 00:11:40.520 --> 00:11:40.640 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, so that's an active discussion on the 00:11:42.140 --> 00:11:42.640 mailing list right now. 00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:47.840 We don't want to replicate what Beats does 00:11:49.680 --> 00:11:50.180 very, very well in eMMS. 00:11:53.860 --> 00:11:54.360 We don't want a clunky interface with Beats. 00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:57.940 We do want some kind of, 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:00.300 and so it's hard to tell exactly where to 00:12:03.160 --> 00:12:03.460 draw that line. So the big answer is yes, 00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:05.460 absolutely, there is a plan to do that. 00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:10.000 The details become complicated because for 1 00:12:15.900 --> 00:12:16.200 thing, the backend, the database that 00:12:18.140 --> 00:12:18.640 MusicBrain uses, AcoustID, 00:12:21.500 --> 00:12:21.820 I don't remember if AcoustID is the binary or 00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:25.960 the database, but that's actually for 00:12:27.500 --> 00:12:28.000 non-commercial use only. 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:31.500 So not only do you need to compile a piece of 00:12:35.280 --> 00:12:35.760 software on your computer as a shim, 00:12:37.540 --> 00:12:37.680 which is what you need to do in order to set 00:12:39.180 --> 00:12:39.680 up beats to do fingerprinting. 00:12:44.720 --> 00:12:45.220 But it also crosses this line between 00:12:47.660 --> 00:12:47.900 completely free software to completely free 00:12:49.400 --> 00:12:49.900 software interfacing with a non-commercial 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:56.420 only service. So a lot of the discussion 00:12:58.660 --> 00:12:59.160 that's going on now is what is the contour? 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:02.660 Where would be where we would be effective 00:13:08.720 --> 00:13:09.220 for EMMS to do management and where not? 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.100 For 1 thing, I would love to be able to... 00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:14.100 1 thing that we definitely would love to be 00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:18.540 able to do is when you hit E on a file and 00:13:21.540 --> 00:13:22.040 you get all the metadata to be able to then 00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:23.200 give a command to say, 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:25.520 hey, play to music brains and see if you can 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:26.700 improve that metadata. 00:13:29.020 --> 00:13:29.520 Do you have better metadata, 00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:33.680 more complete metadata to complete that? 00:13:35.840 --> 00:13:36.340 That is definitely in the pipeline. 00:13:40.900 --> 00:13:41.400 How best to do it, that's a discussion. 00:13:45.460 --> 00:13:45.840 [Speaker 0]: Okay, Yoni, we have about 2 minutes until we 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:47.460 need to go to the next talk. 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:53.080 Okay, I'll risk it. 1 more question and a 00:13:53.800 --> 00:13:54.300 short answer if you can. 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:57.860 Have the developers considered using Emacs 00:13:59.060 --> 00:13:59.560 customized functionality to persistently 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:02.120 store settings when using eMMS setup discover 00:14:02.120 --> 00:14:02.620 players? 00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:08.460 [Speaker 1]: Yes, absolutely. That's another active place, 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:12.340 especially with the discover players. 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:14.940 How to do it exactly without annoying people 00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:18.340 and clobbering their own settings, 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:20.680 we just need to be very careful about that. 00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:23.540 Yes, that's in the coming releases. 00:14:26.520 --> 00:14:26.940 [Speaker 0]: All right, well, Younif, 00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:28.400 thank you so much for your time. 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.640 Feel free to stay in the room. 00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:31.240 I see that some people have started joining 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220 on BBB. If you have more questions, 00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:37.020 feel free to unmute yourself and ask them 00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:39.900 live. Younid, I could ask you also to perhaps 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:41.760 answer the question. I've put the link to the 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:44.480 pad in the BBB chat, so if you look at the... 00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:47.640 Here, I think, we're not mirrored on BBB. 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:49.280 If you look at the left you should be able to 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:51.580 see the chat and the questions and if you 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:52.840 could just answer the last question that 00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.640 would be great. For us on the general track 00:14:57.980 --> 00:14:58.180 we will be moving to the next talk and 00:14:59.700 --> 00:14:59.820 Yannick do you have any last thing to say in 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:02.900 [Speaker 1]: Thank everyone who put together the 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:04.820 conference and thank you to everyone who 00:15:06.680 --> 00:15:07.180 helps with the EMMS. 00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:08.440 [Speaker 0]: 10 seconds? All right, 00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:09.440 well, thank you so much, 00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:11.440 Yoni. We'll probably see you later. 00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:17.860 Bye-bye. Wonderful. And I think we are off 00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:18.760 air. Thank you so much, 00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.920 Juni. I need to step out and go take care of 00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.760 [Speaker 1]: Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much. 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:24.520 [Speaker 0]: the next talk. Bye-bye. 00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:25.760 And just to, I forgot to mention, 00:15:27.160 --> 00:15:27.260 but you can still talk here and everything is 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:28.620 still being recorded. So, 00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:28.940 I'll see you later. 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:32.820 [Speaker 2]: Excellent. Bye-bye. Bye. 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.100 [Speaker 3]: Oh, hello. 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:41.100 [Speaker 1]: Wait, you're still, I cannot hear you yet. 00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:43.080 [Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:43.580 conference. 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:12.780 [Speaker 2]: Okay. 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:18.400 [Speaker 3]: Can you hear me now? I just wanted to say hi 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:20.320 and thank you. My name's Grant. 00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:24.220 I've, you helped me contribute to EMMS maybe 00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:26.980 2 or 3 years ago. I was trying to do the 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:28.980 [Speaker 2]: So, 00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.840 [Speaker 3]: track tag stuff. yeah. 00:16:32.148 --> 00:16:32.571 So I just wanted to say thank you. 00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:35.680 [Speaker 1]: Thank you for continuing and going through 00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:38.680 that entire process. I know that 1 of the 00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.520 things that happens is that people want to 00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.440 contribute, but it's not as slick as GitHub 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.580 and stuff like that, especially with the 00:16:53.400 --> 00:16:53.900 copper assignment. And objectively, 00:16:56.920 --> 00:16:57.420 it's not that. It's just harder than what 00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.180 they imagine it might be. 00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:01.680 [Speaker 3]: Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. 00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:03.440 I think you're doing a wonderful job as a 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.660 maintainer. I still hang out on the list and 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:09.880 enjoy listening in on the discussions. 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:10.460 So. 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:14.626 [Speaker 2]: Yeah. But that's it. I think that's it. 00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:17.200 I think that's it. And I think that's it. 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.890 And I think that's it. 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:23.660 I appreciate it. And I'll leave you to all of 00:17:27.781 --> 00:17:27.811 you to go on from being a product. 00:17:28.088 --> 00:17:28.118 And that she valued to all of us long term 00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:28.680 being a project. 00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:31.960 [Speaker 1]: If you're not super duper active, 00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:33.720 being there long term, 00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:37.860 people tend to find it easier trying to 00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:41.060 continue contributing to the project if 00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:42.620 there's a consistency there, 00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.020 if there isn't a churn, 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.160 if there is a kind of a core group. 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:52.940 I guess it's like, you think it's constant. 00:17:58.280 --> 00:17:58.780 Eliezer Etzke and RMS, 00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:00.920 whatever on the next mailing list, 00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:03.540 You know, okay, there are certain people that 00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:05.800 I think so. So thank you for that. 00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:06.840 That's very important. 00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:08.040 That helps. 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:12.940 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, I'm, I feel like when I started using 00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.540 EMMS several years ago, 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.820 it's, it's improved a lot since then. 00:18:19.540 --> 00:18:20.040 And I notice your focus on helping new users 00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:22.800 get started quickly. And I think the talk 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:24.160 today will help with that too. 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.660 So 00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:32.700 [Speaker 1]: yeah, I want to put you know, 00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:34.360 the, especially the TLDR, 00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:37.640 like how to start it on the link that to the 00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:44.380 website, find somehow that we can get on to 00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:53.400 prepare for that. And this together. 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.200 Now, question for you, 00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:58.620 Where would you like to see EMMS go? 00:18:59.440 --> 00:18:59.820 Where do you see it landing? 00:19:02.780 --> 00:19:02.900 What do you feel like this is what this is 00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:05.040 we're sorely missing these things? 00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:10.240 [Speaker 3]: I don't know. I mean, I picked it up, 00:19:13.540 --> 00:19:13.940 because I both use it to play my music 00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:17.320 collection, but also, like I record my own 00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:20.320 music. And I wanted to be able to edit my 00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:24.000 metadata in Emacs, because editing metadata 00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:29.220 elsewhere sucks. And so that's kind of why I 00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:30.560 got involved with that. 00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:33.940 And I was like, being able to edit metadata, 00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:37.900 especially for content that maybe you're 00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:42.180 creating or because I have a bunch of files 00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:44.700 of just unlabeled stuff I've recorded on, 00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:45.780 you know, different quarters, 00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:47.520 things like that. So that's kind of where I 00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:50.740 was focusing on it. It's the only media tool 00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:52.720 that lets me do that, you know, 00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.940 I can play the music back and have quick 00:19:58.260 --> 00:19:58.380 editing. So I know there was a couple of 00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:01.120 things we had talked about in terms of maybe 00:20:03.260 --> 00:20:03.480 improving kind of the user interface for the 00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.940 tag editor, things like that. 00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:09.600 So I don't have any grand visions for where 00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:15.800 EMMS should go. I know pretty much all the 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:17.420 things I've heard about it already. 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:20.700 You can hook up to GNU FM, 00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:22.440 the Scrabbling Service, 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.700 and all that kind of stuff. 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:27.180 I don't really feel like it's missing much, 00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:29.280 especially being able to choose the back 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:32.320 ends. I guess, if anything, 00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.220 it's the interface. How can it be even more 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:38.660 intuitive for users? And I think that, 00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:41.820 you know, we need more people playing around 00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:43.880 with it, I guess. Yeah. 00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:46.420 [Speaker 2]: I think a really good 00:20:47.520 --> 00:20:47.800 [Speaker 1]: Well, yeah. example of that is, 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:49.600 because I'm sure there are lots of people 00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:50.740 playing around with it, 00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:51.960 arriving at a conclusion, 00:20:53.860 --> 00:20:54.360 keeping it to themselves and moving on. 00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.300 Yeah. Which, and I know that a lot of bits of 00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:02.160 software put a send a bug report feature in 00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.020 and stuff like that and no 1 uses those 00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:08.000 either. So that's the frictional cost. 00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:10.940 I think the context switch for people between 00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:16.360 this doesn't work to actually formulating in 00:21:17.840 --> 00:21:18.340 words what didn't work, 00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:21.600 that is a very expensive context which most 00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:24.980 people will not do. And we're poorer for 00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:32.660 that. So, I think that when we integrate 00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.240 music brains and other things like that into. 00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:37.960 Now, of course, music brains will probably, 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.380 it would be very funny if you pull up your 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:43.660 stuff, right? Something that you wrote and 00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.280 you say, hey, music brains match this and 00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:49.000 it's not there, then it'll probably suggest 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:52.220 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, I've heard that. 00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:52.940 [Speaker 1]: some wild things. Yeah, 00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.400 because there are, there was a system I was 00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:02.220 looking at its code for researching stuff for 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:04.700 EMS And I'm trying to remember what it's 00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:06.040 named. It begins with a J, 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.660 it's this media player, 00:22:13.780 --> 00:22:13.940 free floss media player that it's like a 00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:17.520 media server that can cast to a television 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:21.220 and stuff like that. And I asked it to 00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:24.780 automatically label things and the results 00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:28.380 were horrible. It thought that half of my 00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.400 songs were movies. It thought that JPEGs were 00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:36.220 songs. It just, it did some, 00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:41.020 it did incredibly, it's not a solved problem, 00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:45.160 I think. So the, what I'm thinking with 00:22:49.340 --> 00:22:49.540 MusicBrainz and those services is that you 00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:52.240 hit a button and you have you get another 00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:57.240 pane with a suggestion and you either and you 00:22:59.060 --> 00:22:59.240 can copy through you can say okay copy this 00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.760 and this in this field over or reject the 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:04.460 suggestion and maybe get another 1. 00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:05.280 So, 00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.660 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, I like that a lot. 00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.480 That's more like a diff, 00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:11.640 right? Like you get the diff between the 2 00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:14.040 and you can apply which changes you like. 00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:16.080 Yeah. Was it Jellyfin? 00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:18.720 Is that... Jellyfin? Yeah, 00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:19.960 [Speaker 1]: Jellyfin, yes. 00:23:22.340 --> 00:23:22.840 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, And when that happened, 00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.460 did it clobber all your metadata? 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:27.940 Or does it just label stuff? 00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:29.360 [Speaker 2]: No, it... 00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:38.740 [Speaker 1]: Escalate things somewhere inside it and to 00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:49.340 looking for really, not allow me to do very 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.080 easily. So I was, so, you know, 00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:56.960 on 1 hand, it makes me feel, 00:23:58.980 --> 00:23:59.120 oh, we're not the only ones dealing with 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:00.840 this. We're not the only ones struggling with 00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.800 this. On the other hand, 00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:05.820 it would be nice if that's a paragon that we 00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:08.680 can look to and say, this is a wonderful way 00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:11.540 of doing it. Let's incorporate as much of 00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:15.520 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's a tricky problem, 00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:18.620 especially if you're modifying people's media 00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:20.280 files you know so 00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:23.420 [Speaker 1]: that as we can. yeah I'm also very convinced 00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:32.060 that so I'm not a mainframe for MMS because 00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:35.520 I'm old and curmudgeonly essentially in my, 00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:37.900 in the way they do it. 00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:40.520 And honestly, I rarely ever, 00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:43.180 I use the MMS browser when I need to debug 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:44.660 the MS browser. I don't, 00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.240 I use very simple commands and I even rarely 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:50.940 look at the playlists. 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.220 That was 1 of the things because when I got 00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:57.100 into MMS originally when my eyesight started 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:00.140 going so I had to rely less and less on GUI 00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300 interfaces. So that was, 00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:06.840 so to this day that's how I use EMMS. 00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:09.060 [Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's interesting. 00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:13.760 I remember running into a browser bug because 00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980 I think just my age, like, 00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:18.340 I want to be able to tab through and like 00:25:20.060 --> 00:25:20.560 that was a huge that that changed recently 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:22.800 right where you tab and it unfolds in the 00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:27.980 browser but yeah I realized that people use 00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:31.100 emms in so many different ways just like any 00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:36.220 piece of emacs there's there's many ways to 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.440 do it but appreciate your time I'm gonna 00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.260 actually put together this Christmas tree 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:43.900 [Speaker 0]: So. Wonderful. 00:25:45.260 --> 00:25:45.660 [Speaker 3]: behind me. Yeah, just wanted to say hi, 00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:51.400 meet you in person. But yeah. 00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:54.840 [Speaker 1]: Yeah, excellent. I appreciate it a lot and we 00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:55.580 generate 00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:00.260 [Speaker 2]: some interesting questions. 00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.280 Yeah, thank you. 00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:03.960 [Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this 00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:04.460 conference. 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:13.980 [Speaker 1]: I'm going to have a look at the questions 00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:14.560 here. 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.940 Let's see. Let's see. So there is, 00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:33.260 okay. There's a question here. 00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:34.680 I like what you said about balancing the 00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:36.380 concern for software freedom with the worry 00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:38.560 that this might alienate the package user. 00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:40.120 I wonder if you have advice for other 00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:41.820 maintainers how to communicate this sort of 00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:44.120 thing diplomatically? Yes, 00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:46.160 when you have to deny implementing a feature 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.980 for a freedom reason. This in fact happens 00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:56.320 all the time. A recent example of this was a 00:26:58.380 --> 00:26:58.580 YouTube download, right, 00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040 the YouTube download feature. 00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:04.540 At the time, okay, so stepping back, 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.940 the request was to have a YouTube download 00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:12.440 feature integrated strongly into eMMS so that 00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:16.640 you put in a YouTube URL and you can download 00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.140 the video and play it. 00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:22.280 And the question isn't really whether you can 00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.120 chain YouTube Downloader or 1 of those things 00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:27.100 into your EMMS configuration. 00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.520 You can do whatever you want. 00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:31.340 But the question is, does EMMS actually 00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.740 integrate with it really, 00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:36.040 really strongly to the extent where it tells 00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:38.140 you oh you don't need to download install 00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:40.820 please go ahead and install that or whatever 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.180 and at the time we checked it we found out 00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:46.120 that you know the version that we were 00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:49.780 looking at of the YouTube download or YTDLP 00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.220 or whatever it was called, 00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:56.580 actually downloaded a good amount of 00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.540 proprietary JavaScript onto your machine and 00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:02.480 ran it, just as if you were going on to the 00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:06.880 YouTube page, which is not for me to tell 00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:10.480 people not to do if they want to do that, 00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.460 but it's absolutely for me not to cause to 00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:19.040 happen on the user's machine without them. 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:21.660 1 of the last thing that I want to do in the 00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:26.180 world is have a user inside Emacs press a 00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:30.160 button and have proprietary software get 00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:32.540 downloaded behind their back and run on their 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.420 machine that would be disastrous so we had to 00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:41.600 say no we had to say that's I'm sorry that's 00:28:47.060 --> 00:28:47.380 beyond the pale and in fact in doing so some 00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:51.420 people who were using this system said, 00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:54.400 actually I had no idea it was doing this 00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.040 behind my back. I thought it was just magic. 00:28:58.860 --> 00:28:59.360 I thought it was a YouTube video without any 00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:01.780 freedom issues. I'm going to look into it or 00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:03.620 I'm going to stop using it. 00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:11.680 So my advice would be Stand firm and just be 00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.380 Not not preachy. Don't tell people what they 00:29:19.580 --> 00:29:19.960 need to do be very clear about what you stand 00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:22.400 for and what the project stands for, 00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.940 and so they very clearly know where you 00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:30.960 stand. And I think that people actually 00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:37.040 appreciate that more than a political answer, 00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:44.040 right? That has been my experience. 00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:50.000 Now, excuse me, taking into account that 1 or 00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:52.700 2 people will tell you, 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.440 this is terrible. I'm leaving. 00:30:00.550 --> 00:30:00.625 [Speaker 2]: If you do this, 00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:01.620 [Speaker 1]: This is useless. you're free software or 00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900 whatever, and just leave. 00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.360 But some people are ornery. 00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:09.620 That's not necessarily something bad that you 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.180 did. But that has happened. 00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:14.700 There are multiple stories. 00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:17.080 Because the MMS is so old, 00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:20.580 there are multiple points in which non-free 00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:24.140 software intersected with the EMS because of 00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:28.820 multimedia and we had to go the other 00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:33.800 direction and so far it has served EMS well 00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.740 like the project has died as a result. 00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:40.200 Of course, can't prove a negative, 00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:42.540 don't know where we would be if we had taken, 00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:44.860 gone down that route. I'm pretty sure we 00:30:46.100 --> 00:30:46.600 would need a new ELPA, 00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.360 and I think being so clearly integrated with 00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:55.540 emacs is a huge benefit to eMMS because it's 00:30:57.660 --> 00:30:58.160 it allows people to install it very easily. 00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:09.020 And those are all the questions that I can 00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:09.520 see. 00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:15.560 [Speaker 2]: You