path: root/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-handwritten--how-to-incorporate-handwritten-notes-into-emacs-orgmode--bala-ramadurai--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

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say everyone can say hi to Sasha. Oh, we are recording now. Okay, great. But do say thanks

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to Sasha for being everywhere at once trying to make sure that the stream is working properly.

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She has the magic touch, yes, definitely.

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All right, Vala, sorry to do that. But now the floor is yours. You can take as many questions

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as you want. And I'll be making humorous comments when I'm not busy putting out fires in the

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background. Okay. All right. Thanks, folks. So thank you for the questions. I'll take one by one.

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How do you link the notes together so you could search through them in the future? Okay, this

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video I made before, or rather the experience that I shared with you was before I got into

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linking of notes and how to make sense of it. I'm still I mean, I'm thankful for guys like Leo for

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putting our room together. However, yes, you can take a bow. However, I'm still in the infancy of

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trying to link these topics. So the suggestion I have is once you convert your handwritten text

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into text, so handwritten stuff from your notebook into text, or if you write it, if you have a

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writing device, and you can convert it into text, input it into org rom and link it the way you

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would do it. So I have not yet gone into it. But having said that, I've started doing it like a

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week ago, I started linking these handwritten notes, which are converted into text, and then

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can be linked to any other note that you want. So that's that would be my response to the linking

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part. So which actually leads to the next question, is it necessary to OCR your handwriting?

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This is a necessary step, you have to do optical character recognition, as in convert all the

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handwritten stuff into text, because otherwise, indexing and linking becomes a problem later on.

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If it's only you going through the handwritten notes, so that you browse it and read it when

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you want it, that's okay. So you don't have to worry about OCR, just input the JPEG, the PNG,

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or whatever file you use, format you use, input it into under the org mode headline, or the org

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rom file, and you should be good to go. However, if you want the other stuff, then OCR becomes a

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necessity. So I'm unfamiliar with any package that does the OCR conversion inside of the Emacs

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ecosystem. So I use tools like OneNote, or I think Google Keep does that. I don't know of any other

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free slash open source tools which do that. I'm not familiar, but I use an external tool to convert

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handwritten text into notes, if you want the link again, read rating, if you want the linking and

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the indexing. If not, for me, sometimes screenshots and handwritten notes have to go together,

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so that I can find out, okay, this team or this student was talking about his project,

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or her project, and this is the screenshot of their presentation, and I write down my notes,

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and it goes along with that. That was for me a key to have that together, and not just hand

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typewritten notes, because I have no recollection later on, but handwritten notes I seem to recall

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better, and that's the whole idea of how to integrate. I was breaking my head over it.

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So those are the two responses to those two questions. What about searching notes? Notes

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to text while being offline? Oh my god, this is a related one as well. So yes, it is going to be

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searching has to be linked. If you want the searching facility, it has to be converted text.

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There are no two ways to that right now. Proprietary software like Google Keep seems to

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manage it. I think others, OneNote also, Dropbox also says that they can do it. I haven't tried it

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there, searching it inside these systems to look for handwritten text, because I don't use that for

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managing my projects or making sense of what I've written down. So when it comes to

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doing all those tasks, I use Org Mode. So I would say you absolutely mandatory for us to convert

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this, unless I've made that appeal at the end of my talk, saying if Org Mode, Emacs, Org Mode

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community can put their brains together. I don't know if I can help, but if you want me for

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testing your package, I certainly put my hands up for this for sure. I can do that. I'm keen on

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trying that out. I hope that answered the third question. These articles on, those articles are

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not taking seems interesting. Could you get a link for them? I'll definitely drop it in the Etherpad

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after this recording is done for sure. I will leave it there. It is my good friend in France

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who shared that with me saying when he saw the title of my talk, he sent me a whole bunch of

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articles saying, hey, this seems to support what you told me. And I have sort of shown you the

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screenshots in the video, but I'll definitely leave some of these links in the Etherpad after this.

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Oh yeah, I've used, the next question is, have you looked at taking handwritten notes on a tablet

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like, I don't know how to say that, journal with an X plus plus? So yes, I have started using it

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again. The only tools I used were OneNote and Google Keep because those were the only ones

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which would allow for writing using my stylus. I'm sure there are other apps which can do it,

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but do they convert it into text and how easy is it to input it into org mode is something that,

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so for now, the Dropbox method for me was I write notes, I take a mobile camera, take a picture,

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upload it to Dropbox. Why Dropbox? Because it allows JPEG to be uploaded. Whereas PDF,

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I find it very cumbersome from handwriting to get it in here. So JPEG, I can input it into

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org mode, I'm sorry, OneNote and that converts it into text and then I take it and put it into,

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the inbox has the image as well as the converted text. So I put it into my system,

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the org mode system. So that's how my workflow really is. I don't know if I answered that

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question very well. I've used X journal, but not a whole lot to give you intelligent advice.

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Have you tried out remarkable device to take handwritten notes as well? I haven't figured out

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how to link the files back into org mode in a constructive way yet. Okay, so yes, I've heard

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of remarkable devices. There's another one called Books, if I'm not wrong, and Amazon has also come

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up with a writing, I call it the writing Kindle. I don't know what it's called, a smarter name for

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that. So these devices do exist, but I'm not sure if they convert it into text and if they can put

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it in a repository, which is accessible on your computer, where you can import it into org mode.

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I'm not so sure about those things. So linking that would be nice if you can have access to

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where your Emacs org mode ecosystem is. For me, Dropbox works very well because it's on my mobile

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phone, smartphone, as well as on my computer. So the linking happens and I can just push it all

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into my org mode inbox and process them and refile the notes or do all the good stuff linking. If I

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have the text, I can link them, do all that I can. I can certainly do that. So that's my answer to

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the... where did it go? Remarkable stuff. That question is gone. I don't know. Okay, anyway,

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so that was... Yeah, I don't see it either anymore. It's disappeared, but thank you for

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taking the time to answer it. Okay. So next one. How are we on time, Leo? I can talk all day.

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You are completely good on time. Don't worry. We have until 45 at the current hour

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until we need to move on to the next box. It's very roomy. Take your time answering as many

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questions as you want. Okay. All right. So I won't have either. All right. Something to think about

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is handwritten and org transcribed notes, deduplication for searching. Do you want one or

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the other? Oh, okay. So this is wishlist. Oh, thank you so much for asking this question. Transcription

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for me has become important, not only handwritten, but also voice notes. So this is another thing

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that I've been... I have a couple of podcasts where I want a summary of my important points

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and I can grab the voice clips, but transcribing it, in spite of so many tools out there,

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I find it very difficult to transcribe them automatically. I can make the error corrections

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later on, but I find it extremely cumbersome to transcribe voice notes. So it would be nice

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if we can have voice transcription, one. Handwritten transcription also helps for sure.

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If it can be done, then it makes it... Actually, that's a great idea. Transcription. I wasn't

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thinking of inside. I was thinking of basically taking the notes and somehow linking it within

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the handwritten stuff itself. Maybe my limitation imagination, but transcription is definitely

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something that I would be very interested in. Voice as well as handwriting. I've seen it in

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some other software. I think it was OneNote where I saw that you can record yourself vocally and

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also there is a transcribe for paid packages. They have transcription as well. And then you

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could link text from there on. So if we can do it in our R mode system, nothing like that. I keep

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seeing it and notes keep coming up there. I keep writing it on my Wacom device or my remarkable

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device and it goes into my R mode as I write and as I speak. Unbelievable. This is important. This

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is really important. Thanks for the great idea. I hope this... Again, I volunteer myself to test

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this out as well. I have tons of... At least this year, I have produced 300 minutes of podcast

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content and I find it extremely cumbersome to transcribe it easily. So if this can do it for us,

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at least even a minute or two of the text, nothing like it. That's amazing. The last question I see

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is how often do you instead type in and summarize your notes? Would you consider that a suitable

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approach for yourself at the end of the day? That's a good idea of typing notes. When I'm in

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a hurry, I type. So when I'm in a tearing hurry or my notes is just lying somewhere and there's

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a meeting going on, I don't want to get up and go get my notes, I immediately go to my R mode and

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start typing there. So that's what I do. At the end of the day, I don't have that habit at all.

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I promised myself that I should do daily journaling and all that because it's... Everybody

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says it's a good habit. I've done it a few times and I found it to be good, but it's not a habit

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I'm yet on. So I mean, I also have a shortcut, a keyboard shortcut for the org-grown dailies.

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I do have that and it shows up on the calendar, the blue color. I love those features,

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but I'm not on it. I should make it a habit. As much as I look at my org agenda,

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you should have dailies as well. I type out when I'm in a hurry. Perhaps even writing

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your daily journal could be helpful. Particularly, I find that I'm comfortable typing English

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letters. If non-English, for example, my mother tongue has a different script, which I can't

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easily type using English. So perhaps writing is easier there for me rather than typing it out.

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It feels very weird. So perhaps that could help for non-English, non-Roman script. Perhaps

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writing is better for journaling as well. I guess that could help.

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Okay, Bala, if I can interrupt you for a second because don't worry, I'm not stopping you with

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the questions. I told you you have until 45 and I will honor what I said before. But I just wanted

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to let people know that we have opened up the BBB chat room. So if people want to join the room now

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and ask questions directly to Bala, who has already answered many of your questions on the

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pad, but if you have more questions or if you'd just like to chat with Bala, well, do feel free to

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join the room. The link has been pasted on the ISE channels. It's also available on the talk page at

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the top. So you should be able to find the link pretty easily. And even if we move to the next

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talk, if you're still there and still want to chat with Bala, provided Bala is available and does not

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need to sleep, by the way, with respect to the fact that it's really late over there, do feel free to

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hang around a little more and ask more questions and we'll be posting all of this on the website

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afterwards. So Bala, I think, do you have one more question on the pad or was it the last one?

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Let me check. I think that was the last one. Oh, there is a new question coming up just before that.

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Do take it then. Sure. I was going to say something of an experience I wanted to share,

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but anyway, I can answer this. How fancy has your handwritten notes import been?

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Okay, I'm going to wait for this. I'm not sure if we're talking about importing the notes into,

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like, is it merely importing the files or is it about importing it to your note-taking system,

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like, or whatnot? Okay, okay, okay. I get it. I get it. So I have a simple system for, yes,

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I absolutely agree with you. I mean, the birth of org-mode was that you wanted notes and you wanted

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tasks inside it, right? So that was the origin of that. So I think the same philosophy applies for

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handwritten notes as well because you're writing down notes and somebody says, hey Bala, can you

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send me this document by next Wednesday? And I write that down in my notes and then I send it

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and I write that down in my notes and that's a task. So I just put a star next to it. So I know

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when I am scanning, I don't think that shows up as a, I don't think star shows up as anything in my

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import, but I know when I'm scanning it that I need to keep track of that as a task. So in the

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talk about it is in OneNote, control-1 is the shortcut for ToDo and if it is converted into

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text, yes, of course, alt-enter in org-mode will work as well. So yes, so I think that is important

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even, so that's the only thing that I do is an asterisk or a star just before the note so that

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it tells me that it is a task that I have to keep track of. I even put a date so that the

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numbers also get imported into org-mode. But my wish list, this has gotten me into me wishing is

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if the handwriting notes, I mean the gadget, the device, the remarkable or the Amazon

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writing pads of the world, if we can actually write down notes with a star, an asterisk,

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and the headline and scheduled and all that and import it directly into org-mode, I think

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that's doing away with a whole bunch of in-between scanning, uploading, processing, and all that. This

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can go directly, you can start refiling into your system. So that would be nice. So somebody

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is asking me for a wish list, here's one more too, if we can do that. So that makes basically

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a writing org-mode rather than like as if it's a language, like a human language, rather than it

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being something restricted to a computer. So that's interesting. That's an interesting thought.

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Just to glorify handwriting, I don't know if it has anything to do with the questions. A few days

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ago, a client of mine asked me for a talk and I was going to give them the plain vanilla talk,

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but I decided to pause myself and write down what I was going to talk about. Actually that gave

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rise to a completely different idea and the whole thing was far more effective compared to what was

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my plain vanilla. According to me, that handwritten ideation that I did with a white space really

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helped me think beyond what was my plain vanilla talk. Of course, the talk went well, I think,

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and the audience did have fun because I even jotted down a few things that I wanted to crack

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jokes on. All that went into my notes. So I think handwriting is sort of under-marketed,

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underplayed so much with the advent of typing and these things becoming so efficient and easy

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that I think that all your ideas, if they come together, I think handwritten notes will become

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part and parcel of the org-mode system itself and an effective and efficient way of capturing our

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thoughts. All right, Bala. So I think you don't have any more questions currently. I don't see

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anyone with a microphone on. So by the way, if you're joining us on BBB and if you want to ask

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your questions, you do have to join with a microphone. It is interesting for you to join

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listening only, but if everyone does this and nobody turns on the microphone, it's going to be

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very lonely for Bala and myself. I can ask questions for you. I have plenty of questions

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that I'd love to ask. I did get my own tablet. Oh, actually, let me show the stream. Let me...

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Oops. Can I un-full screen this? Yes. Okay. Let me try to make the screen a little bigger so that

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you can see me. Okay. I was going to talk to you about, if we have a little more time, because I do

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have a tablet like this, which allows me to do handwritten notes. This is... Don't worry too much.

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This is a lead code exit slide that I was solving. And this is Yink, which allows me to type my

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stuff. And I bought this about two years ago. And I've really been struggling to find ways to...

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How do I work both in the Emacs and how do I work with my NVDA notes, which is why I was really

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interested with your talk, because honestly, right now, those are two completely separate

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collections of notes. What is in my machine, this device right there, is its own thing.

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It has its own quality. Do I do my journaling in it? I do my journaling, maybe. I also do my lead

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code exercise. But that's about it. And I wish it were easy for me to connect the dots between

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what I've got on this device and what I've got on my computer right in front of me. So I can talk

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some more about this, but people could also join and ask their own questions. I can talk to Bala

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whenever I want. I've been in touch with Bala for quite a while. And I'll be able to do this

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whenever. But this is your chance for you to do this, to have your question answered,

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and for the question to leave on EmacsConf forever and ever. All the talks for EmacsConf,

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all the questions since three years ago have been published. So it is your chance to,

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if you're not making a talk of your own, at least you have the questions of your own leaving on

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a website. So Bala, I believe you were a little interested with my little device. Do you actually

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have a device of your own that allows you to take notes like this? Or is it just written on paper?

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My computer is a touchscreen, so I can write. I have a stylus that I can use to write anywhere

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on the screen. So I take the laptop and actually fold it, and I can use it like a notebook. So this

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is my use case these days. So when I'm learning, I'm learning Japanese, by the way. And I tell you,

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there's no way I could have retained so much if I had not written Japanese out, the characters. So

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this is critical. Writing is critical. And their ideas, when they're externalized,

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you see it while you're writing it, there's a physical action, you feel the proximity to your

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ideas, what you're doing. So typing, yes, it is also physical. But for me, it's one step away from

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writing down. For me, that's going to make you laugh. I was also studying Japanese and I do have

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my own kanji that allows me to do my practice. So please don't look at it. If you're going to pause

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this video and check what I've written, you will be sorely disappointed because those are just

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collection of verbs. But this is how I practice my kanji as well. And it's been amazing. This is,

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you know, it is such a wonderful usage, because if you try learning kanji,

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just by seeing them and not putting them in your hand or embedding them in your hands,

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it's so complicated to do so. Oh, we have more things in common than I imagined. Okay.

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Yeah. So we happen to have someone in the room currently. Jack, I believe, is their nickname.

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Do you have a question? And do you want to maybe unmute yourself to ask the question?

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You are more than welcome to do so now. I might actually need to unmute you. Actually,

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I can't. Can you unmute yourself and ask the question if you want to?

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I'm just trying to get my headset set up. I'm having the similar struggle with this issue of

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handwriting my notes because that's the easiest way for me to write them quickly. It's also very,

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it does help me retain the information better. But then getting them back into org mode. I'm

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about to start experimenting with some of the iPad apps like Notability and GoodNotes to see

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if that can work or if I can use Apple Notes for that as well. My interests are probably similar

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to yours. I'm studying computer science, and I have two kinds of notes that are very difficult to

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transcribe. Mind maps, which is often the way I take class notes because it's a good outlining

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form. But the handwriting recognition blows if you're part of the expression. And equations,

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particularly involving proof steps for formal semantics. And I'm wondering if you have any ideas

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about mind mapping in particular and getting those incorporated from handwritten notes. I hate using

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the mind mapping tools that are available. I find that that replaces the bad methods that

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I use. It replaces the bad memory generation from typing with a bad memory generation for mind

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mapping. But if you have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them. Actually, I have used mind mapping

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tools. I use something called function maps, where you not only have interlinking relationships,

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this also has what is the relationship, what is the nature of relationships. All that I've been

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drawing it on my laptop screen. So that helps me internalize that. So I do not convert it into

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any other digital format. I leave it as a picture because every time I read it, but in the digital

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format itself, when you have new understanding, you can actually add another object and interlink

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them and add the relationship. So it's a lot easier if it's on this. But on a piece of paper,

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drawing a mind map and or function map and editing it and moving things around becomes a problem.

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So I find that doing it on a device and retaining it as such, not converting it into a free mind or

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any of those kind of XML or anything like that, doesn't help me at all, or a plan TML even. But

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I find that I leave it as such in the digital format. You can select it, like a lasso select,

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move it around and add new objects or remove it or shade it. You can do all those good stuff,

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if it is remaining in the same way. So I like it to be that way. Yeah, I've done that as well

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on the iPad. I'll use Nebo or something like that to give me a good way of rearranging the mind map

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directly in the iPad, exporting it as a JPEG and linking it to other notes documents that I have.

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But I do wish I had a better way of extracting the keywords that come out of it and having

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those searchable. But I get it. Okay, the answer is no, I don't have any. I usually link the live

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document itself into org mode. So for example, OneNote. OneNote colon and the entire... I just

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click on that and it goes, opens the exact document that I want and I can add more to it.

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I do something very simple.

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All right, folks, I'm really sorry for interrupting you, but we are getting close to time.

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Thank you so much for joining. We have four people on the scene right now, which is amazing.

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You can continue talking about this and people can still tune in. The link to the BBB room

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is still available on Bala's talk. You go to EmacsConf 2022, you go to the talk of Bala and

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you'll find the link at the top of the page. You can come in the room and chat with Bala some more.

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But for us on the stream, we're going to move on to the next talk in about 40 seconds.

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So Bala, thank you so much for taking all the time answering all the questions. And thank you,

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Gag, also for coming and asking also lovely questions. I suppose it was really good.

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Yeah, thank you. It was great seeing you. Sorry, I'm rushing because I'm being pressed for time.

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And I will see you both whenever I see you. OK, bye bye everyone.

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See you. Bye bye, Leo. Take care.

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Actually, I'm not sure. We are probably getting the next talk started currently,

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so you can probably still hear me on the stream, but it's going to take about

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three seconds. I'll see you after.

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OK, we are now off air. Thank you so much, Bala, for taking the time to answer all the questions.

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Thank you. Ciao.

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Yeah, I think no one is left in a BBB room, so I think people are probably not going to show up.

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So you've earned your well, your rest for tonight.

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OK, thanks.

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Mine will not come before a long time. I still have about seven hours to stream.

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Oh, my God. OK.

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All right. Well, thank you so much, Bala. See you next time.

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Thanks. Have a good day and I'll catch you soon. OK.

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Sure. Bye bye.

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Bye bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Bye.