path: root/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-buttons--linking-personal-info-with-hyperbole-implicit-buttons--mats-lidell--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

NOTE Introduction

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Yes. Okay. Hi, everyone. We are back now, and I'm with Mats. Hi, Mats.

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Hi. How are you doing?

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I'm fine. How are you?

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I'm doing great as well. As the talk goes by,

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I keep warming up, and this is a very nice feeling. I look absolutely big

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with this down jacket, but it works, and I'm not going to question it.

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You do know, for the people coming every year to AMX Conf, that I do try

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to look dashing, but I also need to be warm, because this year,

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we are doing it in December and not in November.

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Okay. So, Mats,

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how about you start reading questions? I believe you've got one already.

NOTE So with one line of code you can create custom hyperbutton types that are live in any Emacs buffer. Is that right?

00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:45.719
I got one question already. Yes. The question is, so with one line of code,

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you can create custom hyper button types that are live in an AMX buffer.

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Is that right? Yes. The short answer is yes.

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Maybe I should use the presentation and go into here.

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Let's see if I can find it.

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No. Read it wrong. So, here, the field macro allows you, in principle, to,

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in one line, define a hyper button, starting with the starting delimiter

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and an end delimiter, and then there's this mapping

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to whatever functionality should sort of come out of pressing that button.

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So, that was significantly more than just a yes. Thank you.

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I'll be glad we put your screen up so that you can answer this.

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So, people, just to remind you, so we do have the pad to answer the pad

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to ask you questions over there. We are, let me check

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how much time we have for this Q&A. We have until 15 of the next hour,

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which leaves about 20 minutes, but right now we only have one question.

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So, people on ISE, if you could place questions in the pad. Right.

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Sorry, I'm managing multiple things at the same time.

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Is there anything else you wanted to talk about? Anything else?

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Because, you know, to let people know,

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we do ask speakers to submit pre-recordings to us

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because it makes our life much easier on the day

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of the recording at EmacsConf, on the day of the conference at EmacsConf,

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because this way we can get away with not having

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to worry about live presentation catching fires and not, oh,

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I cannot share my screen, my microphone is not working.

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So, not only is everything working today inside the BBBO room,

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but Matt also sent a pre-recording. So, that's great.

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I got another question. Oh yes, go, but please, I'm down in the background.

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Let me jump over to the second question.

NOTE Is there a good way to share common patterns for links other than the ones that you shared? shall those be PRs to your repository?

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The second question is, is there a good way to share common patterns

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for links other than the ones that you shared?

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Shall those be pull requests to your repository?

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Okay, let me think. Those should not be pull requests to our repository

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because these are your patterns, your links.

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That's something you would share like that I'm showing here.

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Could even be like you're sharing maybe the pattern, how this

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button looks, but maybe the implementation could in principle be different.

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So, the one you're sharing with might put their information

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in some other storage that might be accessed using the same information,

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or maybe just placed in some other part of the file system.

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So, the only good way to share it would be like to send it over email

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or some other message to someone else. Share it some way.

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First question. I like the link to evaluate calc expressions.

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Any way to get the outcome into the buffer and not just in the message window?

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I mean, that will be up to the sort of the implementation of the function

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that you would use in the bottom. I mean, the function that

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is evaluated could do anything really. So, that was just an example

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to show that you could, you don't have to be a link that you actually go

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to some new place. It can just be some computation or whatever. So,

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that's just trying to show that you shouldn't be limiting yourself

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to just thinking about links. It can be computing anything.

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It's really the thing about Elisp really. It's just when people ask you,

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you know, when they come from outside of Emacs and they ask you,

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can your function do this? The answer is more often than not, yes.

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Can you write it in Elisp? Yeah, I might need

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to look at the documentation a little bit, but I'll be able to do it.

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And, you know, calc does have the ability to paste the result

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when you're not calc used as a library, but calc the node.

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When you type something in it and you press Y,

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it will paste it into the buffer, which means that there is the ability

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to communicate between calc and the buffer you're currently in. So,

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it's probably just a matter of doing Ctrl-H-K-Y inside the calc mode,

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checking which function is running, and just putting this at the end

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of the button, and voila, there you go.

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So, Matt, I don't think you have any questions at the moment.

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We're going to leave some time for people to gather more questions,

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but I think, if I'm not mistaken, I might be wrong with the,

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we changed the schedule a little bit,

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but you're the first Hyperbole talk for today,

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and as such, you are introducing people to the concept of buttons,

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which is very instrumental to Hyperbole. Hyperbole?

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I'm going to go with Hyperbole, actually.

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So, could you maybe, I know it's a big task,

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and you've also touched upon what Hyperbole was, but a lot

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of people always ask, you know, Hyperbole, Org Mode,

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I see both of them sometimes crop up at the top of the subreddit,

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and I'm not exactly sure which one is doing which.

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You're using the term links, and this speaks to me as someone who works

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in Zettelkasten Methods, so maybe

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could you, I'm asking you with a very difficult question now,

NOTE Could you differentiate Hyperbole and Org?

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could you differentiate maybe Hyperbole and Org, or try your best,

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knowing that we'll have more Hyperbole talks later in the conference?

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Well, I will not try to get into that sort of wormhole,

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because I don't think they should be compared, they're more companions, so yeah.

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It's the best way you could have answered this question, and you know,

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I'm going to remove you from this tricky situation in which I put you,

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so yes, they are complementary tool, they do some of the same thing,

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they do have different philosophy, and at the end,

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if they allow you to take notes,

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if they allow you to relate notes in different places,

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you know, it's a good note-taking system. Let's put it at this,

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let's not concern ourselves with comparison, at least Org, you know,

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the best thing about comparing is cross-pollination,

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which is made all the more easier with something like Emacs,

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because ideas from one mode can be taken and applied in another mode.

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Now, maybe not straightforwardly between Hyperbole and Org,

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but the idea can be translated at the very least.

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You did have a question, I'll answer this one very quick,

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because it's a quick one.

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Yeah, yes, you want to take it?

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I just want to quickly follow up on what you said there,

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that, ah, now I lost, I lost it, maybe come back,

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so let's jump into the question instead,

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because I got an answer, so thank you for everybody who wrote the answer,

00:08:08.240 --> 00:08:13.359
great, and the next question was, this talk is really straightforward,

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so that's probably why there aren't many questions,

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maybe Mats could talk about Hyperbole in general, while he was, aha, okay,

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that's maybe what you were trying to do here, so maybe I should,

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and the last one is, second question, last question is,

NOTE How did you present the right buffer with shortcuts at the right of your buffer?

00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.719
how did you present the lossage bar at the right of your buffer?

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A lot of people are wondering, the lossage bar, oh, well, you have

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to elaborate on what the lossage bar is. I can, although

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I do have a slight problem, my daily backup is running,

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so if my voice is crackly, I'm sorry, I can't do anything about it,

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can you hear me?

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Yeah, you're shopping up,

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but I can understand what you're saying, so that's great.

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So lossage is the stuff that you have on the right side of your screen,

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it's the commands that you're running and the key binding that you're using

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to run them, and yes, this is a mode that we ask,

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or that we provide Emacs on speakers with,

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and it's called interactive log mode, which is available on GitHub,

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which will allow you to have this pretty print on the right side of your screen,

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or whatever really, it's just a buffer.

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Yeah, and I haven't used it before doing this presentation, so it was a news

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to me, so I'm very new to using it, but it works. Well, if you move around,

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you see that, yeah.

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So for the people, we did open up the BBB chat room now,

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which means that again, if you go to the talk page for Matz,

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where this was Button, you will be able to join the BBB by clicking on the link,

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and you'll be able to ask questions right away to Matz.

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We've started a nice question about org hyperbole and stuff like this,

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but maybe we should, yes, I'm trying to save you here,

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maybe we should re-center on the buttons and what they can do,

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especially what we talked about Elisp, allowing buttons to be whatever,

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and since Matz, you have your Emacs available,

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it might be a good opportunity for you to show some of the buttons

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that you're using as well, maybe some different ones that you've presented.

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So if people want to join, that would be a great opportunity

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to ask your questions. We have about 20 more minutes of Q&A,

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and if we don't have any more people showing up

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and no more questions on the pad, we can also go on a little break,

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and I would appreciate this, but I'm also happy to stay.

00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:52.479
Yeah, I understand the interest, but there are more talks coming up

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in related to hyperbole, and I haven't prepared any cool stuff.

NOTE Working with different support systems

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What I could mention that I think is cool, I will not demo that,

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but I work as a programmer, and then I have different support systems,

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which have these strings, identifiers that may be linked

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to different information, like a ticketing system, for instance,

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that would do bugs. It could be like a novel text string

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that identify your bug or your ticket, and it's an internal tool,

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so no one else can support that, but by using hyperbole,

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I can write my own interpretation of that string

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and get that to work as a button, so I can easily

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from the code or from some notes link directly into that ticketing system.

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So that's the point I'm trying to make with this talk is

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that it's useful for setting up your own environment

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that only you really know about and how you want to navigate

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with your information, and it's not about trying to force some type

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of work stream upon anybody. It's more like giving you the opportunity

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to streamline your own workflow instead.

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I think the remaining talks about hyperbole will be more focused

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on all the features. It's a multi-functional package

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with a lot of different stuff in it,

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so I could not give justice to it in just doing some quick demos.

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It won't show all the things you can do.

00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.639
Yeah, but I'm going to say for someone saying

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that you couldn't do justice to the topic,

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you've done a very fine job, so do not worry about this.

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It's funny, I was listening to you describe this, the

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buttons really, but when

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you think about it, you could have forgotten about the buttons

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and really remembered about Emacs and would make as much sense as well,

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because Emacs as a whole, the Elisp stuff behind it allows you

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to do whatever interface you want very easily,

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and the buttons really enshrines the interface type of things really,

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because you just have a button that is running code.

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It's no longer, oh, you need to go to

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the end of the parenthesis, the end of the sex,

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and you need to evaluate it. There's something more interactive about it,

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which feels closer to your user interface as a result to this,

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but I've already blabbered enough.

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We do have someone with a microphone in the VBB chat,

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so does this person want to unmute themselves

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and ask a question, maybe?

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I think I have some very knowledgeable person about hyperbole in the chat.

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Yes, I didn't want to spoil it, but I'm not sure if they're going

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to unmute themselves, so I don't want to put too much pressure on them.

00:14:00.760 --> 00:14:03.519
Can you guys hear me? We can, yes.

00:14:03.520 --> 00:14:09.879
Hi, Bob. Hi, long time fan of hyperbole.

00:14:09.880 --> 00:14:12.919
You might want to cue people in on a joke here,

00:14:12.920 --> 00:14:14.599
because I'm not sure if anyone knows who you are.

NOTE Bob Weiner

00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:19.879
I wrote hyperbole, and Matt's my co-maintainer on it,

00:14:19.880 --> 00:14:23.159
so really exciting to have the first talk here.

00:14:23.160 --> 00:14:26.879
I think I just wanted to mention two things.

00:14:26.880 --> 00:14:28.879
Maybe you could show a little key series,

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just type one out dynamically and show how simple that is,

00:14:33.880 --> 00:14:39.639
and then talk about the UKIPA daily journal,

00:14:39.640 --> 00:14:45.479
right? Time-stamped journal that was originally org mode,

00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.479
and I think you're now using Hyperbole's K-outliner,

00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:56.319
so maybe mention doing that. Okay.

00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.959
Something that's more than one key sequence, please.

00:14:59.960 --> 00:15:09.199
Do a couple operations that you do a lot of or that are interesting,

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all in one.

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So the key series is like a keyboard macro,

00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:20.879
so it's not limited to one key sequence,

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but any series of key sequences can be strung together

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just like that with nothing else,

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and then you activate it the same way as any other button, right?

00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:38.079
Yes, but you're putting me on the spot here,

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because now I have to remember, actually, how to write these things.

00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:46.079
You just write it the way you would type it.

00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:49.479
Yeah, I see it.

00:15:49.480 --> 00:16:00.079
Okay, so let's see. So the key series is between these braces and...

00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:05.159
And you could leave out the quote marks if you don't...

00:16:05.160 --> 00:16:07.639
Maybe I can skip that as well.

00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:09.559
So here's the key series.

00:16:09.560 --> 00:16:10.919
Let's see what's happening.

00:16:10.920 --> 00:16:12.999
Do I go to the 10th folder or not?

00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:16.119
Boom, I got there. Yeah, it worked.

00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:23.159
Bob, great. So you can name them and then reuse them,

00:16:23.160 --> 00:16:29.119
and so it's sort of like you've got this toolkit that you can embed

00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:31.919
in all these different modes that you have in Emacs,

00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:34.639
and you just carry it with you.

00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:38.759
It's not like a whole mode unto itself that you always have to use.

00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:46.599
Yeah, so in this example here with the field, you can,

00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:52.119
instead of having like this path string here,

00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.359
you can have a key series as well.

00:16:54.360 --> 00:17:01.399
But to the other point, also, Elisp is available,

00:17:01.400 --> 00:17:02.959
but this is even more available

00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.959
because you don't even have to code using Elisp.

00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:09.079
So that's the point also with this, the fill and the file macros.

00:17:09.080 --> 00:17:11.879
You should make it even simpler.

00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:15.519
And if you just know how to type some command,

00:17:15.520 --> 00:17:18.679
you can use the key series together with this

00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.359
to get some functionality out of this.

00:17:21.360 --> 00:17:26.399
I think one of the things we've taken to saying about Hyperbole

00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.239
is it's kind of the lightest hypertext markup

00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.159
that you can have, as you saw there, right?

00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:37.519
I mean, there were just braces, and all of a sudden,

00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:40.999
it's a live hyper button. So we've tried to strip away

00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.879
having to write stuff like HTML or even all the drawers

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.519
and stuff like that, and we've tried to make it so that you know,

00:17:47.520 --> 00:17:51.439
even all the like drawers and the property markup in org mode,

00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:57.679
and just provide very, very simple sort of syntactical things similar

00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.679
to what Elisp does, so that you can get a lot of power

00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.999
and put buttons everywhere, but not have to recognize a lot of syntax

00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.639
or use a whole bunch of keys on your buttons.

00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:16.039
It's pretty interesting,

00:18:16.040 --> 00:18:16.679
by the way.

00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:17.959
I'm sorry I have to do this,

00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:20.519
but we only have about five more minutes in the Q&A before we need

00:18:20.520 --> 00:18:24.039
to move on to the next talk. But don't worry, you've had a little test

00:18:24.040 --> 00:18:27.079
of Hyperbole right there, and you'll have more over the weekend.

00:18:27.080 --> 00:18:30.319
We've had a lot of Hyperbole talk this year, which is amazing.

00:18:30.320 --> 00:18:33.559
You know, we usually have a lot of talk about org, but this year

00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:37.479
is truly the one where we also have a similar amount of Hyperbole talk,

00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:42.399
which is amazing to see. Obviously, I am more of an org guy,

00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.679
but I see so many parallels between the two, so many bridges

00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:50.319
that could be built as well, and it's amazing to see the amount of passion

00:18:50.320 --> 00:18:53.439
that goes into this. Usually I deal with people who are passionate about org,

00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.719
but to see that there's a similar amount of passion on the Hyperbole side

00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:58.279
of things is truly amazing to me.

00:18:58.280 --> 00:19:04.799
I think we had one more question in the pad, if you can take it, Matt.

NOTE Do the links/buttons created in hyperbole (like that one with the url) get exported on org-mode files too? (like when exported to html)

00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:10.639
Yeah, the last here is, does the links buttons create in Hyperbole,

00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:16.159
like the one with the URL get exported on org mode files too,

00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.999
like when exported to HTML?

00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.039
Oh, tricky question.

00:19:21.040 --> 00:19:31.519
I mean, these implicit buttons, they are just like the patterns.

00:19:31.520 --> 00:19:35.319
So the pattern will of course be exported to HTML,

00:19:35.320 --> 00:19:37.439
but you will not be able maybe

00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:43.519
to do something there unless you're watching the HTML within Emacs,

00:19:43.520 --> 00:19:50.199
so the sort of Hyperbole machinery would be available, if that makes sense.

00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:58.359
I mean, yeah, it's possible. It depends what the encoding is,

00:19:58.360 --> 00:20:03.999
what the encoding is, but we do have an outliner mode, the K outliner

00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:10.439
in Hyperbole as well, and that has a single command export to HTML.

00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.879
So if you've embedded URLs in there,

00:20:13.880 --> 00:20:19.519
you would see them just like if you embedded them in org mode,

00:20:19.520 --> 00:20:25.559
and potentially the org exporter, if you just write a raw URL,

00:20:25.560 --> 00:20:30.119
will also encode it for you when you export it.

00:20:30.120 --> 00:20:35.039
There's other Hyperbole buttons in there. Yeah, but the functionality that

00:20:35.040 --> 00:20:38.159
is by clicking on that button will not be exported.

00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:44.079
Well, it's like you can try printing the button, I'm not sure. No amount

00:20:44.080 --> 00:20:46.479
of clicking on it is actually going to trigger an action.

00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:51.639
I might be wrong though. Sorry, I mean printing on paper,

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.799
it's a very confusing terminology that we're using right there, not printing

00:20:55.800 --> 00:20:56.759
in a terminal.

00:20:56.760 --> 00:21:02.359
One cool thing if you use the Hyperbole export to HTML is

00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:07.519
that you can expand and collapse your trees in the HTML.

00:21:07.520 --> 00:21:10.439
I don't think you can do that with the org export right now.

00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:15.999
But Bob, you're going to show something about that tomorrow, right?

00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:21.319
I don't think it's in this presentation because I'm- Oh, it's not

00:21:21.320 --> 00:21:25.079
in the presentation, okay. On the org side of the house this time,

00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:32.879
but it'll be in a different one about Hyperbole some other time. All right,

00:21:32.880 --> 00:21:36.199
so we have about two minutes until we need to go to the next talk,

00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.479
but thank you so much, Matz, and thank you so much, Bob,

00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:41.839
also for showing up and giving us a taste of what is probably going

00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:44.759
to follow up tomorrow. I can't remember, I think your talk is

00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:51.599
in the afternoon, right, Bob? Correct, about 1 p.m. EST. Yeah, so

00:21:51.600 --> 00:21:56.959
in about 22 hours, 23 hours. I'm trying my best to give you times

00:21:56.960 --> 00:21:59.119
which are time zone independence,

00:21:59.120 --> 00:22:01.839
so I'm sorry if I'm missing the mark a little bit,

00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:04.679
but hopefully this would be useful for many people. But otherwise,

00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.719
just check the schedule and you'll be able to get everything. All right, well,

00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:09.999
thank you so much, Matz, for answering so many questions

00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:12.839
and for your presentation as well. I feel like it was good

00:22:12.840 --> 00:22:16.599
to have your presentation before Bob's one tomorrow,

00:22:16.600 --> 00:22:22.039
because focusing on the one aspect of Hyperbole, the buttons, and linking it

00:22:22.040 --> 00:22:26.119
to Elisp, linking it to interactivity, linking it to UI, I think is going

00:22:26.120 --> 00:22:29.239
to prime people to then understand fully what Hyperbole,

00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:34.319
or what are the capabilities of Hyperbole, beyond this, or inspired by this.

00:22:34.320 --> 00:22:37.199
So thank you so much. Thanks, Matz. Thank you.

00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:38.599
Great.

00:22:38.600 --> 00:22:42.519
All right, and we are going live with the next talk in about 30 seconds.

00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:45.519
I think we're going to close the BBB room,

00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:49.759
because nobody has showed up otherwise. So I will see you both later.

00:22:49.760 --> 00:22:50.599
Bye-bye.

00:22:50.600 --> 00:22:54.000
Bye-bye.