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+WEBVTT
+
+00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.079
+You sound great. And on the stream, my eyeball says it looks
+
+00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:08.239
+great with Leo doing the streaming. So I say let's dive right
+
+00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.639
+in. You got a long, huge line. And in order to be a little more
+
+00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:16.279
+dialectical, I'll be reading the questions. So first
+
+NOTE Q: which-key was a third-party package for a long time. Is there work to bring any other popular packages into core Emacs for Emacs 31+? (magit, counsel, etc)
+
+00:00:16.280 --> 00:00:18.559
+question, which key was a third party package for a long
+
+00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:21.879
+time? Is there work to bring any other popular packages into
+
+00:00:21.880 --> 00:00:25.399
+the core of Emacs for Emacs 31 plus, like Magit or Counsel?
+
+00:00:25.400 --> 00:00:30.279
+Uh, right. I already answered that one on the, as you can see,
+
+00:00:30.280 --> 00:00:33.999
+uh, right. Yeah. Do you want to quickly read the answer so
+
+00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.439
+that everyone, I just can read it out again. Um, as far as I
+
+00:00:38.440 --> 00:00:41.159
+remember, the one package that was being discussed just
+
+00:00:41.160 --> 00:00:43.999
+around the time that the Emacs 30 branch was cut was macro
+
+00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:47.599
+step. That's the package that was like, does an overlay, uh,
+
+00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:51.479
+replaces a macro with the macro expansion using overlays.
+
+00:00:51.480 --> 00:00:53.799
+So you don't have to pop up another buffer, modified,
+
+00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:57.599
+modified current buffer. But we didn't manage to address
+
+00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.759
+all the concerns in time for the Emacs 30 cuts and I believe
+
+00:01:00.760 --> 00:01:03.799
+it's sort of stagnated around that but it might be picked up
+
+00:01:03.800 --> 00:01:07.399
+anytime someone mentions it on Emacs Devil again. Another
+
+00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:11.519
+package question mentioned was Magit. That's a constant
+
+00:01:11.520 --> 00:01:14.959
+discussion regarding Magit. And actually, from the top of
+
+00:01:14.960 --> 00:01:19.039
+my head, I can't recall if Magit is on NonGNU ELPA or GNU ELPA
+
+00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.999
+right now. It's still on NonGNU ELPA.
+
+00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:29.039
+For those who don't know, only packages which are in ELPA are
+
+00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:33.039
+considered for addition, considered to be added to the
+
+00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.119
+Emacs core, to be bundled along with Emacs. And then there's
+
+00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:40.519
+another totally parallel discussion about having a sort of
+
+00:01:40.520 --> 00:01:43.519
+fat Emacs distribution, I call it fat Emacs distribution,
+
+00:01:43.520 --> 00:01:48.119
+where Emacs comes with a lot of ELPA packages or the
+
+00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:55.039
+pre-installed by default. Part of Emacs itself. Yeah.
+
+00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.159
+Maybe I could jump in with an active listening style,
+
+00:01:59.160 --> 00:02:03.359
+you know, kind of follow up question almost. You know, I
+
+00:02:03.360 --> 00:02:07.159
+understand the kind of different repositories. We have
+
+00:02:07.160 --> 00:02:13.799
+things that aren't maintained by GNU at all, you know, most
+
+00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.919
+notably MELPA. And then we have kind of NonGNU ELPA, which
+
+00:02:17.920 --> 00:02:21.639
+is sort of an entryway project where it's not necessarily
+
+00:02:21.640 --> 00:02:24.759
+curated, but there'll be some advice given, which you can
+
+00:02:24.760 --> 00:02:28.159
+take or leave. And that's the repository where anything
+
+00:02:28.160 --> 00:02:32.519
+that was the newer repository that represents, you know,
+
+00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.319
+help, you know, help, help supplied from GNU. And then
+
+00:02:36.320 --> 00:02:41.319
+there's the, actually the GNU, the GNU ELPA, what most of us
+
+00:02:41.320 --> 00:02:46.479
+are used to calling just ELPA. And that's what you're
+
+00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:50.839
+talking about there when you say,
+
+00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.959
+I mean, all packages on ELPA are officially considered to be
+
+00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:56.959
+part of Emacs, they're licensed under the same conditions
+
+00:02:56.960 --> 00:03:00.359
+as Emacs itself, same license, same everything. And
+
+00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.719
+they're more likely to be, to drop, to kind of be dropping
+
+00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:07.839
+patched. Oh yeah, it's time for this to move to core. Is that
+
+00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.559
+right? They have the legal conditions for that to be done.
+
+00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.039
+Everything's necessary from a paperwork standpoint. I
+
+00:03:15.040 --> 00:03:17.959
+mean, but other than that, there's not really a big
+
+00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:21.159
+difference between GNU ELPA and NonGNU ELPA. It's
+
+00:03:21.160 --> 00:03:23.839
+really just the main thing is this copyrights notice. So if
+
+00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:28.519
+you want to add a package to ELPA, to GNU ELPA, then all
+
+00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:32.359
+significance contributors have to have signed the FSF
+
+00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:36.399
+copyright assignment and the package script, actually the
+
+00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:41.519
+ELPA build script, checks if the copyright lines are all
+
+00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.879
+attributed to the Free Software Foundation.
+
+00:03:43.880 --> 00:03:52.119
+But that's not going to attach, right? So because that's not
+
+00:03:52.120 --> 00:03:57.799
+in place, it'd be a lot more work to merge it to core. I didn't
+
+00:03:57.800 --> 00:04:01.039
+hear the beginning. Nevermind. I think I understood. You
+
+00:04:01.040 --> 00:04:05.559
+made your point well. Okay. All right, moving on to the
+
+00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:06.466
+second question.
+
+NOTE Q: Any way to get the goodness of Emacs for android with this other stuff?
+
+00:04:06.467 --> 00:04:08.279
+When thinking about using Emacs on
+
+00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.279
+Android, I started realizing all the other software I also
+
+00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.279
+want on it. For example, PDF Tools wants a small additional
+
+00:04:15.280 --> 00:04:18.519
+Emacs-specific program to be installed on, and notmuch
+
+00:04:18.520 --> 00:04:21.359
+obviously wants notmuch. Any way to get the goodness of
+
+00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:25.639
+Emacs for Android with this other stuff, using either Nix OS
+
+00:04:25.640 --> 00:04:29.279
+or Guix or nix-on-droid to make an APK with extra stuff? Are you
+
+00:04:29.280 --> 00:04:34.439
+familiar with this topic? Absolutely not. The extent to
+
+00:04:34.440 --> 00:04:39.319
+which I have used Emacs on Android was entirely
+
+00:04:39.320 --> 00:04:43.719
+demonstrated in this video, I think. In my previous video. I
+
+00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:48.719
+mean, I know it does a few scrolling stuff, but I have no idea
+
+00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:52.719
+how external stuff, because I mean, Android is, it's a Unix
+
+00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:55.439
+or it's a Linux based system, but it's really heavily
+
+00:04:55.440 --> 00:05:01.439
+modified to the preferences of Google, which includes not
+
+00:05:01.440 --> 00:05:04.719
+being able to have your own software on it. Yeah,
+
+00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.799
+definitely. All right, moving on to the next question. Does
+
+00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:12.239
+package-vc... Oh, no, that's fine. I mean, you can't answer
+
+00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:15.199
+all the questions. I mean, it wouldn't be fun for me
+
+00:05:15.200 --> 00:05:15.753
+otherwise.
+
+NOTE Q: Does package-vc download a tarball from the specified git repository or clone the repository itself?
+
+00:05:15.754 --> 00:05:17.919
+Does package-vc download a tarball from the
+
+00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.759
+specified Git repository or clone the repository itself?
+
+00:05:21.760 --> 00:05:25.439
+It clones the repository. That's the VC part in the name.
+
+00:05:25.440 --> 00:05:33.719
+package-vc uses VC, the C-x v stuff. In Emacs 29, there's a
+
+00:05:33.720 --> 00:05:37.679
+new command called vc-clone, which in Emacs 31, it was
+
+00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:42.479
+actually exposed as an interactive command. And when you
+
+00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.319
+clone the repository, or when you, you can give it any URL of a
+
+00:05:47.320 --> 00:05:50.559
+Git repository or a CVS repository or subversion
+
+00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.519
+repository. Interestingly enough, most people only use
+
+00:05:53.520 --> 00:05:57.559
+Git, but anything that's, that implements this clone
+
+00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:01.519
+command for VC, and it could download it. So there's no
+
+00:06:01.520 --> 00:06:05.119
+tarballs involved. Which is also, one should emphasize,
+
+00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.879
+part of the difficulty of VC packages because when you have
+
+00:06:07.880 --> 00:06:10.759
+version control and you want to upgrade it, it might be that
+
+00:06:10.760 --> 00:06:14.399
+the upstream did a force push. For that, you make local
+
+00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:17.519
+changes and then you have to merge them upstream with the
+
+00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:21.239
+upstream changes when fetching stuff. It's one of the big
+
+00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.559
+downsides of version-controlled stuff, and I'm saying
+
+00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:26.999
+this as the guy who actually wrote package-vc. There's
+
+00:06:27.000 --> 00:06:29.719
+times to use it, there's advantages to it, but that's
+
+00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:32.959
+something you should keep in mind, why tarballs are
+
+00:06:32.960 --> 00:06:37.969
+interesting to have, in my opinion. Okay.
+
+NOTE How is the new behavior of M-q in prog-mode (prog-fill-reindent-defun or something like that) different from the behavior of C-M-q (indent-pp-sexp) in older Emacs versions?
+
+00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:39.639
+How is the new
+
+00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:42.439
+behavior of M-q in prog mode, prog-fill-reindent-defun
+
+00:06:42.440 --> 00:06:45.159
+or something like that, different from the behavior
+
+00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.799
+of C-M-q, i.e. indent-pp-sexp in older Emacs
+
+00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:52.199
+version? My apologies if indent-pp-sexp, it's really tough to
+
+00:06:52.200 --> 00:06:55.959
+read M-x commands out loud. It's not bound to
+
+00:06:55.960 --> 00:07:01.519
+C-M-q by default, I can't tell. Let me try that command
+
+00:07:01.520 --> 00:07:05.599
+out because I've never tried it, never used it before.
+
+00:07:05.600 --> 00:07:09.079
+You know, that isn't bound by default. I bind that up myself
+
+00:07:09.080 --> 00:07:11.759
+and I have that binding. I think that's, that's not right. It
+
+00:07:11.760 --> 00:07:15.119
+says so. I mean, I'm currently executing it here in Emacs and
+
+00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:20.839
+it says you can also run the commands indent-pp-sexp with
+
+00:07:20.840 --> 00:07:26.359
+M-q, C-M-q. Apparently it is. I mean, I
+
+00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:31.359
+didn't set it myself. I don't know what's up with that. to try
+
+00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:35.439
+and move it. And then each line started with points or pretty
+
+00:07:35.440 --> 00:07:37.239
+printed. I mean, the difference, the main difference
+
+00:07:37.240 --> 00:07:41.279
+between that and the command highlighted, what's the name
+
+00:07:41.280 --> 00:07:47.479
+again? I forget it all the time. The prog-mode command.
+
+00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:50.359
+prog-fill-reindent-defun is that
+
+00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:56.319
+it checks if it's in a string or not. If it's in a string or if
+
+00:07:56.320 --> 00:07:58.959
+it's in a comma, then it will refill. Otherwise, it's going
+
+00:07:58.960 --> 00:07:59.799
+to re-indent.
+
+00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:05.679
+That's, I think, as far as I see, that's going to be the main
+
+00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.599
+difference. If we have some long comments somewhere. Let's
+
+00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:15.439
+try that out. Yeah, that's the difference. I just, you can't
+
+00:08:15.440 --> 00:08:19.679
+see it, but I did try it. Okay, good. Thank you. You did a
+
+00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.119
+wonderful job describing visually what you're doing. All
+
+00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:26.759
+right, moving on to the next question, and we have about, we
+
+00:08:26.760 --> 00:08:28.759
+have just enough time to cover the last three questions,
+
+00:08:28.760 --> 00:08:32.239
+especially because the next one, I can pretty much surmise
+
+00:08:32.240 --> 00:08:33.143
+the answer.
+
+NOTE Q: Any plans for Emacs running in iOS?
+
+00:08:33.144 --> 00:08:36.759
+Any plans for Emacs running on iOS? Probably not
+
+00:08:36.760 --> 00:08:40.319
+because it's not, I mean, as I emphasized in the video, the
+
+00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.639
+Emacs port in Android is completely free. And to my
+
+00:08:43.640 --> 00:08:45.319
+knowledge, that's not something that's currently
+
+00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:49.799
+possible with iOS. You need Xcode or something like that to
+
+00:08:49.800 --> 00:08:56.639
+build iOS stuff. So that's a big no-no. I mean, maybe Apple's
+
+00:08:56.640 --> 00:09:00.919
+going to change their mind on that one. Well, I won't be the
+
+00:09:00.920 --> 00:09:04.039
+one liaising with Apple to make sure that they do, but PR
+
+00:09:04.040 --> 00:09:07.599
+welcomes, I guess, or motivated folks welcome. Second to
+
+00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:08.647
+last question.
+
+NOTE Q: I am worried about the situation on non-free systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from here?
+
+00:09:08.648 --> 00:09:11.719
+I am worried about the situation on non-free
+
+00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.519
+systems. There was talk about the Windows and the macOS
+
+00:09:14.520 --> 00:09:17.039
+versions being as good as unmaintained. Where do we go from
+
+00:09:17.040 --> 00:09:20.399
+here? I gather that most users of Emacs are still on non-free
+
+00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:24.799
+platforms and will remain to be there. I don't know about the
+
+00:09:24.800 --> 00:09:28.279
+last point, if that's true, because there's no statistics
+
+00:09:28.280 --> 00:09:35.039
+on that matter. But the main, I mean, someone has to, I know
+
+00:09:35.040 --> 00:09:37.959
+that Corwin is involved with the Mac, with the Windows
+
+00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:43.199
+stuff. Modestly. Sure, I'd love to jump in, but I'm far more
+
+00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:45.839
+interested in your thoughts than mine. Please, please
+
+00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:51.039
+continue. Someone has to do the work. Eli uses, as far as I
+
+00:09:51.040 --> 00:09:58.719
+know, Eli's on the Windows XP system. So as long as he's doing
+
+00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.519
+that, there's going to be Windows support for one form or
+
+00:10:02.520 --> 00:10:07.959
+another, or at least DOS. All right. And now you put a quarter
+
+00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:12.439
+in me, so I'll jump right back in. That's perfect for where I
+
+00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:14.519
+guess I would take the question. To me, it's an
+
+00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:17.439
+accessibility issue. Think about it this way. Maybe that
+
+00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:23.319
+Windows XP system is what someone can afford. Likewise,
+
+00:10:23.320 --> 00:10:27.679
+from a freedom versus I have to do my job and I have to use
+
+00:10:27.680 --> 00:10:31.679
+certain technology to do my job. Maybe Emacs is what
+
+00:10:31.680 --> 00:10:35.559
+somebody can afford right? It might be the only free tool
+
+00:10:35.560 --> 00:10:37.439
+that they use and they don't have a lot of choice about the
+
+00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:40.039
+operating system that they're in most of the day. In fact,
+
+00:10:40.040 --> 00:10:42.279
+somebody could be in the situation where their computing
+
+00:10:42.280 --> 00:10:45.839
+device at work is really their internet access, right? All
+
+00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.279
+of those situations are possible. Therefore, I tend to
+
+00:10:48.280 --> 00:10:53.479
+assume they all exist and when I ask, you know, how much It
+
+00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:58.039
+definitely is concerning when we hear about kind of black
+
+00:10:58.040 --> 00:11:02.079
+holes in the brain trust of something like support for the
+
+00:11:02.080 --> 00:11:06.359
+Windows port. I feel like I've heard a lot of people
+
+00:11:06.360 --> 00:11:10.959
+answering that call, but the importance of that is that it
+
+00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:14.119
+doesn't stop echoing, right? Free software goes as long as
+
+00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.399
+there are people that are irritated enough about something
+
+00:11:16.400 --> 00:11:20.839
+to sort of come hack on it. Yeah. And the same applies to Mac
+
+00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:25.199
+OS. But I don't know any concrete details about who's
+
+00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.079
+currently working on it. I can't recollect any details on
+
+00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:29.439
+who's currently working on what.
+
+00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:35.279
+Okay. And that leaves us with the last question of the day.
+
+NOTE Q: Is there a best practice on what Org to use when following emacs-latest?
+
+00:11:35.280 --> 00:11:38.159
+I'm a bit confused about what version of Org that I should
+
+00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:40.919
+write towards because there's Org in Emacs, the one that
+
+00:11:40.920 --> 00:11:44.279
+ships built-in. There's the one in ELPA. There's the one in
+
+00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:48.519
+Org, probably the Org ELPA, I assume. Is there a best
+
+00:11:48.520 --> 00:11:51.959
+practice on what Org to use when following Emacs latest?
+
+00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:58.919
+when following us latest. It depends on, I think, my rough
+
+00:11:58.920 --> 00:12:02.559
+heuristic is if you do use Org a lot and if you follow the
+
+00:12:02.560 --> 00:12:06.279
+newest features, then use the version on Elpa, because the
+
+00:12:06.280 --> 00:12:09.959
+Elpa version should be the most up-to-date one. The Org Elpa
+
+00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:14.999
+was deprecated, to my knowledge. If that seems true, please
+
+00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:18.319
+someone interrupt me before I make a fool of myself.
+
+00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:24.519
+No one's done that yet.
+
+00:12:24.520 --> 00:12:29.519
+I think a couple of years ago there were chats and then we
+
+00:12:29.520 --> 00:12:33.999
+deprecated the all contrib ELPA, but I think all the ELPA is
+
+00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:40.759
+still alive. I didn't know that about that. Okay, in that
+
+00:12:40.760 --> 00:12:44.839
+case, that relativizes how absolute my answer is.
+
+00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:49.559
+Personally, I just use the version in Emacs, which is
+
+00:12:49.560 --> 00:12:53.399
+bundled with Emacs, which is regularly updated on master
+
+00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:58.319
+whenever there's a release. But that might take maybe, it
+
+00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:03.559
+might be a short time behind the ELPA version, or the other
+
+00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:11.879
+ELPA, the Org ELPA, which we mentioned. But I'm a very light
+
+00:13:11.880 --> 00:13:16.119
+Org mode user, so please don't take my word for that one. No,
+
+00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:23.439
+and I'm happy to come to you. Yeah. I
+
+00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:27.719
+feel like we lost Leo again. OK. Well, that's all right. I
+
+00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:31.279
+wanted a bite at that, Apple. I'm a little bit. Yeah, I also
+
+00:13:31.280 --> 00:13:34.239
+describe myself as a light org user, but somehow your
+
+00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.159
+comment made me think, well, maybe I do use it just a little
+
+00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:41.719
+bit more than you, Philip.
+
+00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:45.359
+From my standpoint, I'm using it as a technical basis for
+
+00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:49.959
+dungeon mode in order to keep the game notes for the games
+
+00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:52.479
+that are made using this game engine I'm making that I talked
+
+00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.079
+about a few years ago. As soon as you said technical grounds,
+
+00:13:56.080 --> 00:13:59.319
+you definitely use it more. Right, right. So I've studied
+
+00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.159
+its internals a bit, and I have my own thoughts about this or
+
+00:14:04.160 --> 00:14:06.959
+that. But of course, I'm rolling with the punches because
+
+00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.119
+I'm just grateful that the bear dances. What an amazing
+
+00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:14.519
+thing is Org Mode. But Leo knows far more than me,
+
+00:14:14.520 --> 00:14:18.359
+conveniently having his stage right here, so he can't
+
+00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:22.359
+defend himself from this. But I've had thoughts around this
+
+00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:28.559
+space. Are you back, Leo? Yeah, sorry, I'm back. You save us
+
+00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:33.479
+all. Maybe closing remarks. I was trying to clear my throat
+
+00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:36.079
+to be very inconspicuous about me coming back, but
+
+00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.319
+apparently I was ousted. Yeah, I was trying to answer the
+
+00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:42.239
+question and I was trying to desperately save you from
+
+00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.999
+answering, Philip, because yes, the thing about Org Mode is
+
+00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:48.879
+that if you are the kind of people who tend to check out master
+
+00:14:48.880 --> 00:14:51.919
+on Org Mode, generally it's roughly pretty stable. Like
+
+00:14:51.920 --> 00:14:54.319
+when we were working with Org Element and stuff like this,
+
+00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:56.479
+Perhaps there were some elements of stability which
+
+00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.199
+weren't there quite yet, but usually now it's pretty
+
+00:14:59.200 --> 00:15:02.039
+stable. So I think that if you are really excited about
+
+00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:04.639
+contributing to Org Mode and stuff like this, I think there
+
+00:15:04.640 --> 00:15:08.199
+isn't all that many risks to just checking out Org Mode
+
+00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.999
+Master, so cloning the repository and just keeping up to
+
+00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.119
+date. Otherwise, ELPA is a fairly safe bet if you want to have
+
+00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:19.839
+the latest stable version. And we've got a question about
+
+00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:24.759
+[??] as with Emacs itself. You can follow whatever is
+
+00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:28.519
+published in your package archives or in your system
+
+00:15:28.520 --> 00:15:32.399
+distribution package manager. You can build it yourself if
+
+00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:36.839
+you want to contribute and fix bugs, add features, and so on.
+
+00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:40.399
+Yeah, and I don't think perhaps a little more with Emacs,
+
+00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:43.439
+because the features that tends to get introduced in Emacs
+
+00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:48.039
+are slightly more wild. Not wild in the sense that they are
+
+00:15:48.040 --> 00:15:50.679
+less stable, but wild in the sense that they tend to change a
+
+00:15:50.680 --> 00:15:54.119
+lot more stuff. The core of Org, at least during Bastien's
+
+00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:56.879
+maintenance ship, was very stable when you think about it.
+
+00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:59.719
+So things might change with Ihor right now in terms of how he
+
+00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:02.839
+wants to change some of the core behaviors, but it's usually
+
+00:16:02.840 --> 00:16:06.079
+pretty stable. And whether you use the latest major
+
+00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:09.159
+version, the latest minor version, things are probably
+
+00:16:09.160 --> 00:16:11.679
+going to be pretty stable. It's like you heard me while you
+
+00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:16.199
+were offline. And I do agree with that, in case you might have
+
+00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:18.319
+heard both our remarks and think we're talking different
+
+00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.439
+angles. Actually, I think we would tend to agree on this, Leo
+
+00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.759
+and I. For the record, when I'm saying, oh, I have to go keep up
+
+00:16:26.760 --> 00:16:30.719
+with org, that's because org grows behaviors that I've got
+
+00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.639
+my own. I had to figure out at some point my own way to do it, and
+
+00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:38.119
+now I'm learning how it's done, right? So I'm like, in my
+
+00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:41.279
+abstraction, blah, right? And those conversations
+
+00:16:41.280 --> 00:16:44.279
+usually end at, and somebody else took the time to figure out
+
+00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:48.039
+how to actually make Emacs do that. Go be quiet. And I do, and I
+
+00:16:48.040 --> 00:16:52.999
+do consider that under Bastien's tenure, it has been quite
+
+00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:57.039
+stable. We might notice the occasional like, oh, this
+
+00:16:57.040 --> 00:17:00.519
+highlights now and that didn't, right? But very often, very
+
+00:17:00.520 --> 00:17:03.599
+infrequently is it breaking my workflow as a user, any of it.
+
+00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:07.799
+It's interesting to me that this mirrors my experience with
+
+00:17:07.800 --> 00:17:12.679
+Emacs itself, where I think, in my perception, Emacs master
+
+00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.199
+is very stable and I might notice the slight changes between
+
+00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:21.839
+git pulls. But otherwise, in my experience, Org mode
+
+00:17:21.840 --> 00:17:24.879
+suddenly changes something, I don't know what changed or
+
+00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:29.439
+what's going on or what caused it, and it seemed... I
+
+00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.719
+perceive it as being a sudden uncontrolled change or
+
+00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:36.239
+something. I think that's apt. Right. That gets
+
+00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:40.159
+right at it. If we're following, if we're pulling for more
+
+00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.759
+pretty regularly, cronjob every night or pulling a few
+
+00:17:42.760 --> 00:17:44.639
+times a day or something like that, we're going to the
+
+00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:48.639
+internals yeah, we'll have a different experience than,
+
+00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:51.959
+you know, if we only remember to update Org once every four
+
+00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:54.759
+months. It really pays to stick with everything. And
+
+00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:59.199
+suddenly lots of things might change. Whatever broke in my
+
+00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:03.439
+own config, right? And so a lot of, like a lot of things within
+
+00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:06.759
+Emacs, but also within the free software tool chain, it's
+
+00:18:06.760 --> 00:18:09.559
+how much you're going to invent in the config, invest in the
+
+00:18:09.560 --> 00:18:14.199
+config, might limit you know, and maintaining your config
+
+00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.199
+may limit the depth of how far it makes sense for you to go with
+
+00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:21.759
+the tool at any given point in time. Actually just looked up
+
+00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:25.279
+my org config and it's four, I said four options, user
+
+00:18:25.280 --> 00:18:29.239
+options. So that's, if that's the measurements of org
+
+00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:32.119
+expertise, that's my level, it's four.
+
+00:18:32.120 --> 00:18:38.559
+That's all good then. Four of four, I'm assuming that is,
+
+00:18:38.560 --> 00:18:44.279
+right? Four of what? What was the metric there, four of like a
+
+00:18:44.280 --> 00:18:48.119
+thousand? Four out of the number of user options that Word
+
+00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:54.239
+provides. Oh, okay, I see. Four, yeah, more like 10,000. I'm
+
+00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:59.079
+there. Yeah. All right. On that note, I suggest we move to
+
+00:18:59.080 --> 00:19:00.999
+what's close because it's fairly late for me and I need to
+
+00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.119
+sleep. And Philip, I think it's pretty late for you as well,
+
+00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:07.239
+isn't it? I'm in Germany, so it's about... So it is pretty
+
+00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:09.799
+late. It's the same time zone as me. It's 11 p.m. for you.
+
+00:19:09.800 --> 00:19:16.399
+Truly, yeah. Yeah, so I suggest we both take the chance to go
+
+00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:20.359
+to bed as soon as we can. But Philip, thank you so much for
+
+00:19:20.360 --> 00:19:22.759
+both the presentation and also the answers that you
+
+00:19:22.760 --> 00:19:26.119
+provided to us and the nice little chat we had at the end. We
+
+00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:29.519
+look forward to seeing you again next year, perhaps for
+
+00:19:29.520 --> 00:19:34.159
+Emacs 31. I'm not sure. I was chatting with wasamasa
+
+00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.679
+trying to make prognostics about when Emacs 30 is going to be
+
+00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.839
+released. There's a pre-release coming soon. I should have
+
+00:19:40.840 --> 00:19:46.719
+mentioned that earlier. Well, there you go. Gone.
+
+00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:51.839
+All right. Well, thank you so much, Philip. We'll be moving
+
+00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.479
+towards close. Give us about two minutes to get set up in the
+
+00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:58.439
+other room. And Philip, we'll see you next time. Goodbye.
+
+00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:02.160
+Bye-bye. Thank you.