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WEBVTT


00:00:03.639 --> 00:00:04.140
[Speaker 0]: Again, second only live Q&A of the day.

00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:06.339
So, things are still a bit rusty,

00:00:07.859 --> 00:00:08.360
but believe me, by the end of the morning,

00:00:11.719 --> 00:00:12.219
we will be well-oiled machinery.

00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:13.940
So, hi Marcus, how are you doing?

00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:15.860
[Speaker 1]: I'm fine, Thank you.

00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:20.020
[Speaker 0]: I really liked, most people might have

00:00:21.680 --> 00:00:22.180
forgotten, but you started your presentation

00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:26.340
with the, in a very dark room and with this

00:00:29.200 --> 00:00:29.340
typical note of dry German humor that I

00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:30.900
particularly liked.

00:00:33.900 --> 00:00:34.280
[Speaker 1]: Whereas I told you we're born without humour

00:00:38.040 --> 00:00:38.300
so any sense of humour is the result of very

00:00:38.559 --> 00:00:39.059
hard work.

00:00:43.840 --> 00:00:44.280
[Speaker 0]: Well I can confirm therefore that your work

00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:46.600
is evident in this particular remark.

00:00:50.379 --> 00:00:50.879
So as we did before and perhaps this time

00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:54.320
more punctiliously, terrible adverb,

00:00:57.660 --> 00:00:58.100
that's why I'm an English major we will be

00:01:00.220 --> 00:01:00.420
taking questions first from the pad and then

00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:03.740
we'll be moving on to people in the BBV room.

00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:05.540
Let me just check if we have some people.

00:01:06.220 --> 00:01:06.720
We do have some people.

00:01:08.720 --> 00:01:08.860
All right, so Markus, I'm gonna ask you the

00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:11.200
questions in the pad unless you have

00:01:12.100 --> 00:01:12.600
something to remark first.

00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:15.060
[Speaker 1]: Yes, oh no, no, I don't have nothing to

00:01:17.680 --> 00:01:17.800
remark. I mean, only that we're coming to the

00:01:19.940 --> 00:01:20.200
end of the term here, and I think in the

00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:24.140
paper that I wrote, I expressed doubt that

00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:25.560
Emacs was good for beginners,

00:01:31.220 --> 00:01:31.720
but I've now gone back to an interactive

00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:34.020
notebook in the class without Emacs,

00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:37.500
and I've just missed it terribly the whole

00:01:38.940 --> 00:01:39.220
term. And I think I saw you walk too,

00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:40.540
so that's kind of interesting.

00:01:41.660 --> 00:01:42.160
That's it.

00:01:43.320 --> 00:01:43.580
[Speaker 0]: Right. All right, well,

00:01:44.860 --> 00:01:45.040
let's get started with the questions because

00:01:47.440 --> 00:01:47.940
I'm a little worried that we might acquire

00:01:50.140 --> 00:01:50.580
debt because of the time that we have.

00:01:52.900 --> 00:01:53.040
And just to be clear, so that you also know

00:01:54.360 --> 00:01:54.479
the time at which we're supposed to be

00:01:56.979 --> 00:01:57.240
finishing, the next talk here on this track

00:01:59.060 --> 00:01:59.560
is supposed to be at 10.40,

00:02:01.240 --> 00:02:01.740
which is in 13 minutes from now.

00:02:02.720 --> 00:02:03.220
All right, with that said,

00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:04.500
starting with the first questions.

00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:07.300
What tools do you use for making your slides?

00:02:08.940 --> 00:02:09.440
They are very nice and I concur.

00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:18.180
OrgReveal?

00:02:22.100 --> 00:02:22.600
[Speaker 1]: I use OrgReveal. It's a package,

00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:26.380
OrgReveal. I don't have the link right now,

00:02:31.160 --> 00:02:31.560
but it's an org mode package where You create

00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.400
some meta information and I think it's

00:02:39.660 --> 00:02:39.900
basically JavaScript, JavaScript package that

00:02:41.120 --> 00:02:41.620
will work from a bunch of different

00:02:49.300 --> 00:02:49.540
platforms, but it works particularly well

00:02:51.620 --> 00:02:52.120
from Emacs. So you use that a lot.

00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:55.440
[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah, I think it is definitely

00:02:56.720 --> 00:02:57.120
interacting with JavaScript in the background

00:02:58.620 --> 00:02:59.120
and it makes for a very clean presentation

00:03:01.240 --> 00:03:01.380
right from Emacs. I mean,

00:03:04.180 --> 00:03:04.340
it's not opened in Emacs unless you use a web

00:03:06.180 --> 00:03:06.480
browser in Emacs that supports such

00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:09.400
compositing but it's pretty convenient and I

00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:10.780
recommend looking into it.

00:03:19.040 --> 00:03:19.540
[Speaker 1]: I'm just going to share the URL here.

00:03:20.900 --> 00:03:21.400
So if anybody's interested.

00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:24.140
[Speaker 0]: Right, and we'll be putting all the links

00:03:25.440 --> 00:03:25.600
right now. So obviously right now,

00:03:27.740 --> 00:03:28.180
Marcus is writing inside of his own Emacs,

00:03:28.940 --> 00:03:29.340
but we also have the pad.

00:03:30.760 --> 00:03:31.020
We'll make sure that you have all the links

00:03:32.020 --> 00:03:32.520
accessible a little bit later.

00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:34.340
Okay, moving on to the next question,

00:03:34.860 --> 00:03:35.360
why MDPI?

00:03:40.140 --> 00:03:40.520
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, well that's a little bit of a longer

00:03:42.100 --> 00:03:42.600
answer, kind of boring I suppose.

00:03:44.180 --> 00:03:44.680
So when I came here to the US,

00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:47.960
I used to teach a lot of graduate courses and

00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:49.280
I had to suddenly teach a lot of

00:03:49.960 --> 00:03:50.460
undergraduate courses,

00:03:52.940 --> 00:03:53.100
which partly motivated this move because it

00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:55.640
made me realize, as I said in the

00:03:57.660 --> 00:03:58.020
presentation, how little the students

00:03:59.280 --> 00:03:59.780
understand of the underlying infrastructure

00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:01.920
and how important it is for them to work with

00:04:05.940 --> 00:04:06.440
an IDE that doesn't make coding especially

00:04:09.020 --> 00:04:09.140
convenient, but that teaches them a lot of

00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:10.840
the stuff on the side,

00:04:12.580 --> 00:04:13.080
you know, while still presenting a very

00:04:16.880 --> 00:04:17.380
smooth environment, which developers

00:04:21.899 --> 00:04:22.120
appreciate as well. So I came here and I used

00:04:24.320 --> 00:04:24.520
to publish like 4 or 5 research papers per

00:04:25.640 --> 00:04:26.140
year, but I didn't have the time.

00:04:28.260 --> 00:04:28.760
So I was contacted by MDPI.

00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:34.340
And it's 1 of those research paper mills,

00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:37.160
which seem to be springing up where authors

00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:40.840
can, really the institutions of the authors

00:04:42.100 --> 00:04:42.560
have to pay so that they can publish,

00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:44.440
right? So it's not really,

00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:46.400
and I checked them out and they seem to be

00:04:47.260 --> 00:04:47.680
proper peer review publishing,

00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:49.120
but to be absolutely sure I said,

00:04:49.960 --> 00:04:50.460
well, you can have my article,

00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:52.540
but of course for free,

00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:55.080
I'm not going to pay for you to publish it.

00:04:57.200 --> 00:04:57.700
And so that's what they did.

00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:01.160
They invited me and I submitted the paper and

00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:02.240
it was a very good process.

00:05:04.280 --> 00:05:04.540
That was a very, it was a good peer review

00:05:06.400 --> 00:05:06.760
critique. So I changed the paper quite a bit.

00:05:07.640 --> 00:05:07.940
It's still not a great paper.

00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:09.320
It's just a small case study.

00:05:11.880 --> 00:05:12.100
That's the kind of thing that you have a lot

00:05:14.580 --> 00:05:14.800
in medical research where also people don't

00:05:17.280 --> 00:05:17.720
have a lot of time to do research,

00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:19.480
proper research, which takes a very long

00:05:21.020 --> 00:05:21.520
time. And so that's why MDPI.

00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:24.660
And they are in the most of the relevant

00:05:27.280 --> 00:05:27.780
citation indices. So they are reputable

00:05:30.700 --> 00:05:30.920
enough. I mean, normally I would say for

00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:33.060
anybody who does anything like this,

00:05:36.200 --> 00:05:36.420
you might not even want to bother with the

00:05:37.260 --> 00:05:37.640
journal these days anymore.

00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:39.260
You just go straight to ArcSci,

00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:41.620
put out your preprint.

00:05:44.380 --> 00:05:44.540
And in fact, what will happen if you're on

00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:46.440
ArcSci, if somebody finds it interesting,

00:05:49.400 --> 00:05:49.900
they're going to reach out to you to capture

00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:54.280
your paper and have it published under their

00:05:55.800 --> 00:05:56.120
heading. Oh yeah, actually the other reason

00:05:58.260 --> 00:05:58.660
why I wanted MDPI is because there were open

00:05:59.480 --> 00:05:59.980
access from the start.

00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:02.660
And I really like, if you go to the paper,

00:06:03.820 --> 00:06:04.200
I really like the way it's presented.

00:06:07.120 --> 00:06:07.340
So I looked at a few papers and I thought

00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:12.140
it's a really nice online access,

00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:13.980
online open access solution.

00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:17.220
That's the long answer,

00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:17.720
sorry.

00:06:20.660 --> 00:06:21.060
[Speaker 0]: No, that was perfectly fine and you provided

00:06:23.400 --> 00:06:23.760
many details so it was far from a boring

00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:25.420
answer, let me reassure you.

00:06:26.820 --> 00:06:27.100
Moving on to the question,

00:06:28.900 --> 00:06:29.120
we only have about 8 minutes left so I'd like

00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:31.500
to finish those 2 questions and let people in

00:06:33.960 --> 00:06:34.460
the audience speak. So do you think immersion

00:06:37.060 --> 00:06:37.500
can be achieved on teaching other students

00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:38.600
with different backgrounds?

00:06:41.680 --> 00:06:42.180
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, that's a really good question.

00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:48.380
I had actually a discussion last night with

00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:49.920
my wife in bed about this,

00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:52.860
about the use of textbooks which are famously

00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:55.840
non-immersive because they're consumed away

00:06:58.140 --> 00:06:58.640
from the class. Very rarely you sit in class

00:07:00.100 --> 00:07:00.540
like people used to do and read something

00:07:01.960 --> 00:07:02.420
together. Maybe they did that in English.

00:07:04.200 --> 00:07:04.700
And that is of course instantly immersive.

00:07:06.300 --> 00:07:06.700
But in computer science,

00:07:07.680 --> 00:07:08.180
many other topics, psychology,

00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:10.300
you know, biology and so on,

00:07:11.820 --> 00:07:12.260
you cannot get immersion,

00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:14.240
at least not in a lecture theater.

00:07:16.760 --> 00:07:16.960
You get it in a lab because people solve the

00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:18.920
problem and then they're immersed in it.

00:07:20.500 --> 00:07:20.680
So, but my answer would be,

00:07:22.580 --> 00:07:22.680
yes, I can think totally immersion can be

00:07:25.260 --> 00:07:25.540
achieved anywhere, but what you have to do is

00:07:29.180 --> 00:07:29.500
you have to not lecture and you have to let

00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:31.640
students do work as you go along.

00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:33.840
So I used to lecture quite a bit because I

00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:38.220
was an insecure young professor and just read

00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:41.400
all my slides and my notes as I used to use,

00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:43.540
as everybody uses to when they start.

00:07:45.660 --> 00:07:46.100
But as I went along, I realized,

00:07:47.860 --> 00:07:48.240
you know, I've got such a grasp of the topic

00:07:50.660 --> 00:07:51.080
that I really everything I do now is prepared

00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:53.720
in Emacs in an interactive way so I start

00:07:55.120 --> 00:07:55.480
saying a few words and then the students

00:07:57.840 --> 00:07:58.000
immediately we get to work and they seem to

00:07:59.640 --> 00:07:59.840
love that because in most of the other

00:08:01.460 --> 00:08:01.680
classes people just talk at them they take

00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:03.500
their stuff home and work at home,

00:08:04.640 --> 00:08:05.140
which is of course is super.

00:08:06.220 --> 00:08:06.680
But most of the students,

00:08:08.320 --> 00:08:08.600
if they have, in at least in a liberal arts

00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:10.220
college, they have 5 other classes,

00:08:13.200 --> 00:08:13.520
they do not take a lot of time to do the work

00:08:16.389 --> 00:08:16.880
at home. So it's, you know,

00:08:18.420 --> 00:08:18.840
yeah, It's kind of different.

00:08:19.820 --> 00:08:20.020
It's kind of risky, yeah,

00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:22.360
but the main point I was trying to make is

00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:26.740
Emacs and Org Mode really helped me to boil

00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:29.220
that interactive session down to something

00:08:30.320 --> 00:08:30.800
that will work in the classroom.

00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:32.559
I don't have to jump around between

00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:33.740
platforms. For example,

00:08:35.659 --> 00:08:35.799
this term, and I didn't use Emacs in the

00:08:36.419 --> 00:08:36.919
class with the students,

00:08:39.740 --> 00:08:40.240
I had to render using a package.

00:08:42.169 --> 00:08:42.299
It's actually a very nice package called,

00:08:45.620 --> 00:08:46.100
what's it called? Ox, what's it called?

00:08:50.020 --> 00:08:50.520
Ox, Ox IPNB. It's called Ox IPNB.

00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:53.360
So what it does is it renders in the usual

00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:55.580
way with Emacs, Org Mode does,

00:08:58.580 --> 00:08:58.700
renders interactive notebook files in

00:09:00.560 --> 00:09:01.060
Jupyter. And that took me a lot of time.

00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:03.840
And I immediately noticed as soon as the

00:09:05.680 --> 00:09:06.180
teacher has to fight platforms themselves,

00:09:09.520 --> 00:09:09.920
they take the ball off the immersion task,

00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:12.340
you know, to keep the student on the problem.

00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:18.560
[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, go on, please.

00:09:22.340 --> 00:09:22.840
Yeah. I was going to remark that.

00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:23.260
[Speaker 1]: So yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

00:09:24.760 --> 00:09:25.120
I suppose it might be MIT style.

00:09:25.760 --> 00:09:26.140
Big difference though,

00:09:27.620 --> 00:09:27.900
my classes are very, very short,

00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:30.060
small. So I have like between 10 and 15

00:09:32.080 --> 00:09:32.180
students per class. 1 of the reasons why I

00:09:34.800 --> 00:09:35.080
went to this college is because I was fed up

00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:36.940
teaching, trying to teach hundreds of

00:09:40.120 --> 00:09:40.580
students. Okay, sorry,

00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:42.520
do some of your students nag you about using

00:09:43.260 --> 00:09:43.460
VS Code? Yes, they do,

00:09:44.800 --> 00:09:45.300
but their arguments aren't very good.

00:09:48.420 --> 00:09:48.740
They hadn't really compared Emacs and VS

00:09:51.300 --> 00:09:51.800
Code. And what I do, actually I use RStudio

00:09:53.560 --> 00:09:53.860
as well, demonstrate VS Code,

00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:01.060
RStudio and Emacs. And I think it's very easy

00:10:02.440 --> 00:10:02.840
for them to see. And there are some videos

00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:05.020
about that as well, how much easier it is to

00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:08.520
get into Emacs to limit your investments to

00:10:09.520 --> 00:10:09.820
what you actually wanna do.

00:10:11.680 --> 00:10:11.840
When the problem with VS Code is it comes at

00:10:13.780 --> 00:10:14.280
you with this sort of Microsoft store

00:10:16.780 --> 00:10:17.280
ideology, like a gazillion plugins,

00:10:18.340 --> 00:10:18.840
which if you're a developer,

00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:20.140
you know what you want.

00:10:23.620 --> 00:10:24.120
And I mean, it's a bit like VS Code is like

00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:27.940
Google search for as if you were programming

00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:30.820
in Google search, a complete waste of time.

00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:33.280
Having said that, I've also seen some videos

00:10:35.900 --> 00:10:36.180
with people who really know how to use VS

00:10:37.040 --> 00:10:37.420
Code. And of course, you know,

00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:41.180
if somebody gets on the inside of a tool and

00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:44.480
spends upwards of a thousand hours in the

00:10:45.340 --> 00:10:45.840
tool, they'll be great.

00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:47.580
But that's not true for beginners.

00:10:50.280 --> 00:10:50.780
So hold on, there's another 1.

00:10:51.820 --> 00:10:52.320
I'm reading them, sorry.

00:10:54.920 --> 00:10:55.420
Leo, I can see the questions,

00:10:57.500 --> 00:10:58.000
but you may wanna turn them around.

00:11:00.520 --> 00:11:00.720
[Speaker 0]: No, No, no, please, please,

00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:01.560
you're free to read them.

00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:02.900
I'm on your fasted computer.

00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:04.600
[Speaker 1]: Some of you, too, that's the nagging.

00:11:05.660 --> 00:11:06.100
I teach simple programming at a vocational

00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:07.700
school, and even after showing the students

00:11:09.060 --> 00:11:09.520
Vim, Vim, of course, is a contender,

00:11:10.760 --> 00:11:11.260
and now I'm telling them I prefer Emacs.

00:11:14.060 --> 00:11:14.260
They still all choose VS Code as their

00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:17.460
editor. Well, okay, what I did is mandatory.

00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:19.140
I didn't let them choose.

00:11:21.740 --> 00:11:21.980
That's what I did. And I thought that was

00:11:23.300 --> 00:11:23.800
quite risky, but in the end,

00:11:26.140 --> 00:11:26.400
it turns out that the best students loved it

00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:28.580
and keep using Emacs in their jobs.

00:11:32.140 --> 00:11:32.640
I hear that now. The students in the middle

00:11:35.640 --> 00:11:35.860
were probably the ones who would pick VS Code

00:11:37.900 --> 00:11:38.400
because every tutorial they see,

00:11:40.240 --> 00:11:40.440
they learn a lot through YouTube and so

00:11:41.760 --> 00:11:42.260
everything they see is in VS Code.

00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:44.180
If there were more tutorials in Emacs,

00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:45.600
I'm trying to make some,

00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:47.620
then of course that would be different.

00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:53.940
But I think it's partly brainwashing and

00:11:55.680 --> 00:11:55.840
partly, of course, the other reason is there

00:11:59.820 --> 00:12:00.320
is no online Emacs. They use VS Code Dev,

00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:02.460
right? And that's, of course,

00:12:04.640 --> 00:12:05.140
they use an online cloud solution.

00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:07.040
Like most of the students in the high school,

00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:09.360
I teach Python in the high school right now,

00:12:11.460 --> 00:12:11.600
and the students only get Chromebooks that

00:12:13.660 --> 00:12:14.160
are completely cut down to nothing.

00:12:16.920 --> 00:12:17.420
They cannot have Linux on their Chromebooks.

00:12:19.540 --> 00:12:19.900
So what are they supposed to do?

00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:21.580
Their only choice really is Repl.

00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:24.240
Repl.com is a possibility for them to do

00:12:27.040 --> 00:12:27.540
that. But, you know, or they use code spaces,

00:12:29.060 --> 00:12:29.560
which is VS Code in GitHub.

00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:32.660
[Speaker 0]: Marcus, sorry for the interruption.

00:12:33.820 --> 00:12:34.040
We only have about 2 minutes left.

00:12:35.140 --> 00:12:35.380
So if you could take 1 question,

00:12:36.260 --> 00:12:36.760
that would be great. Sorry.

00:12:37.800 --> 00:12:38.100
[Speaker 1]: So. I'm observing the same behavior.

00:12:39.620 --> 00:12:40.080
Any more tutorials will be most welcome.

00:12:43.260 --> 00:12:43.660
Yes, I I'd love to. I spent the rest of my

00:12:45.980 --> 00:12:46.100
days on this earth making Emacs tutorials if

00:12:49.016 --> 00:12:49.267
[Speaker 0]: tutorials if I can.

00:12:49.518 --> 00:12:49.769
[Speaker 1]: I can. Thank you. DMAX Thank you.

00:12:50.540 --> 00:12:51.040
Approach to handling EDA.

00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:52.700
Oh yeah, with white data sets.

00:12:58.440 --> 00:12:58.940
Well, that's a good point.

00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:03.260
[Speaker 0]: So Markus, I don't want to put you under too

00:13:06.180 --> 00:13:06.680
[Speaker 1]: answer the question. The handling EDA,

00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:08.760
I don't know, if you look at the comments,

00:13:09.560 --> 00:13:09.960
I think these are on YouTube,

00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:11.340
right, at some point, Leo?

00:13:12.380 --> 00:13:12.600
[Speaker 0]: much pressure to Oh yes,

00:13:13.580 --> 00:13:13.860
they will definitely be on YouTube.

00:13:14.440 --> 00:13:14.540
answer the

00:13:15.420 --> 00:13:15.580
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to question you asked about the

00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:17.560
EDA, that's too long to go into right now,

00:13:20.740 --> 00:13:21.100
plus my cat is here. So I'm going to answer

00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:22.620
that in the comments, all right?

00:13:23.660 --> 00:13:24.160
Start up the conversation.

00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:27.800
Yes, I'm going to post that in the comments

00:13:27.980 --> 00:13:28.480
as well.

00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:31.500
[Speaker 0]: Sure, but Also, just to be clear,

00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:32.640
Marcus, you're going to continue the

00:13:35.320 --> 00:13:35.440
discussion. It's just a stream that will be

00:13:36.880 --> 00:13:37.160
moving on to the next talk in about 50

00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:39.380
seconds. Marcus, feel free to keep answering

00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:40.760
questions inside this room.

00:13:42.280 --> 00:13:42.780
You also have people, we're going to check

00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:44.540
aside with the stream,

00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:46.280
we have a number of people in the room.

00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.300
You can see them on the left on the button

00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:51.360
who are probably going to unmute themselves

00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:52.580
and ask you questions.

00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:54.440
So feel free to stay in the room,

00:13:56.680 --> 00:13:57.100
answer as lengthy as you want the questions

00:13:58.520 --> 00:13:58.700
because that's more content for us and we

00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:01.640
love it obviously. But it's just that I

00:14:03.640 --> 00:14:03.760
personally will be leaving to take care of

00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:04.860
the rest of the talks.

00:14:06.660 --> 00:14:06.880
So, Markus, do you have any last words before

00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:07.740
we move on?

00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:09.680
[Speaker 1]: No, just thank you for this wonderful...

00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:11.080
I'm going to copy this.

00:14:13.100 --> 00:14:13.280
I don't think I listened to the talk by

00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:15.200
Sascha yet, but I'm going to do that because

00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:18.080
I really want to copy this conference format.

00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:19.860
I think that is the conference format of the

00:14:21.420 --> 00:14:21.820
future, using volunteers to put together

00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:23.100
conferences. So I can't wait.

00:14:24.560 --> 00:14:24.720
Nobody wants to come to Batesville where I

00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:25.840
am, but thank you so much.

00:14:26.680 --> 00:14:27.180
That was really super professional.

00:14:27.540 --> 00:14:28.040
I love that.

00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:32.420
[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay, we are almost perfectly on time.

00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:35.420
I think we caught up about 1 or 2 seconds

00:14:36.820 --> 00:14:37.200
into the last sentence you said but otherwise

00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:38.960
we were splendidly on time.

00:14:39.760 --> 00:14:40.260
So thank you so much Marcus.

00:14:42.940 --> 00:14:43.140
[Speaker 1]: You're welcome. So I wanted to say a little

00:14:46.160 --> 00:14:46.660
bit about that question about handling EDA.

00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:52.960
[Speaker 0]: Can you see the chat on the left?

00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:54.720
Because people have started asking questions

00:14:55.680 --> 00:14:56.180
on the left. Can you see the chat?

00:14:56.366 --> 00:14:56.866
[Speaker 1]: I mean I used email. Sorry,

00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:00.820
[Speaker 0]: So you've got multiple avenues for questions.

00:15:01.093 --> 00:15:01.166
[Speaker 2]: You can

00:15:01.880 --> 00:15:02.380
[Speaker 0]: still answer questions in the chat.

00:15:03.540 --> 00:15:03.760
[Speaker 1]: sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm just going to go into

00:15:04.740 --> 00:15:05.240
that. Yeah, that's fine.

00:15:06.420 --> 00:15:06.760
[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll need to go now.

00:15:08.260 --> 00:15:08.560
So Marcus, have a great day and I'll probably

00:15:08.860 --> 00:15:09.360
see you later.

NOTE Start of section to review

00:15:11.780 --> 00:15:12.280
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, thank you. Sorry.

00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:15.620
Bye bye. There was a question about the,

00:15:17.280 --> 00:15:17.560
I wanted to ask the answer the question about

00:15:21.380 --> 00:15:21.760
EDA, large data sets. So,

00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:24.660
I mean, I teach undergraduate now,

00:15:27.600 --> 00:15:28.100
so there's a limited number of courses,

00:15:32.100 --> 00:15:32.360
like where I use, actually have big data

00:15:35.860 --> 00:15:36.100
issues. And I mean I'm not saying that I'm

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:38.760
not that I don't run into performance issues

00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:40.580
with Emacs. I obviously do.

00:15:43.380 --> 00:15:43.680
But like the performance issues in Emacs are

00:15:45.440 --> 00:15:45.780
comparable to performance issues for example

00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:49.580
when using R. In R everything is in memory So

00:15:52.200 --> 00:15:52.700
you are limited to the available,

00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:56.020
what is it, 2 gigabyte or whatever memory of

00:15:57.720 --> 00:15:58.180
your computer. So you would have to find

00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:00.360
other infrastructure solutions anyway.

00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:05.860
The advantage of using Emacs is that I can,

00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:07.620
within 1 Org Mode file,

00:16:09.780 --> 00:16:10.280
connect to an external database.

00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:13.840
I can even, as probably most of you know,

00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:17.860
I can even use it as a text-based web browser

00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:20.640
if I want to. So I could look at individual

00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:26.780
files. And the other point of EDA of course

00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:30.640
is that you're not supposed to look at the

00:16:32.760 --> 00:16:33.260
tables. You're supposed to get the basic

00:16:40.800 --> 00:16:41.300
frame of your data. Is there a header?

00:16:43.540 --> 00:16:43.780
What's the approximate size and stuff like

00:16:45.720 --> 00:16:45.980
that? And then you're supposed to import it

00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:47.580
into a data frame ideally,

00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:51.260
at least in portions. And I don't think,

00:16:56.040 --> 00:16:56.260
yeah, so that's it. But the full answer is

00:16:59.720 --> 00:16:59.980
that I have not done big data analysis in

00:17:01.780 --> 00:17:02.280
Emacs. So that's actually a really nice

00:17:05.900 --> 00:17:06.099
extension. I'm going to write that down as a

00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:08.260
thing to talk about in some future talk.

00:17:10.319 --> 00:17:10.819
Okay, so ADA with big data.

00:17:13.579 --> 00:17:13.940
Even though interesting would be to know what

00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:16.560
kind of size of data you're actually talking

00:17:18.800 --> 00:17:19.300
about. So I don't know,

00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:25.940
what is it, upwards of 1 terabyte or

00:17:27.099 --> 00:17:27.520
something like that, I don't know.

00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:29.020
That'd be interesting to know.

00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:34.940
Haven't done that in class.

00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:40.460
So there's another question.

00:17:42.840 --> 00:17:43.020
Proportion of students that you think would

00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:44.820
keep on using Emacs after your course?

00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:46.000
That's not a difficult question,

00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:47.880
because as I said, I have very small classes.

00:17:48.760 --> 00:17:49.200
I've been here since 2 years.

00:17:51.040 --> 00:17:51.540
So I'm in touch with almost all the students.

00:17:54.280 --> 00:17:54.760
In fact, I'm getting them work after school.

00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:55.980
So that's really cool.

00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:00.660
And everybody who took to Emacs really

00:18:03.540 --> 00:18:03.900
seriously, so probably about 25% or so keep

00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.160
using Emacs after, afterwards.

00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:08.360
I mean, even in the job,

00:18:09.580 --> 00:18:10.080
right, in the professional field.

00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:13.080
Who, those who keep using Emacs after the

00:18:14.760 --> 00:18:15.180
course, I think the number is greater,

00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:16.920
but I have not followed up on that.

00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:23.140
I have to, my guess is more than half,

00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:25.360
I would say, half or more than half.

00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.880
Oh, Aaron, thank you so much.

00:18:31.220 --> 00:18:31.320
That's very sweet. But I didn't think the

00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:32.300
presentation was great.

00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:33.840
I was thinking about redoing it,

00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:35.700
but this is actually the first take.

00:18:38.360 --> 00:18:38.860
It was late, I had lots of other stuff to do.

00:18:44.440 --> 00:18:44.700
I think what I'm more interested in than

00:18:46.760 --> 00:18:47.260
papers is probably this idea of making

00:18:50.860 --> 00:18:51.020
Emacs-based data science videos because there

00:18:51.840 --> 00:18:52.120
aren't many out there.

00:18:53.100 --> 00:18:53.600
Most of the people who do,

00:18:56.980 --> 00:18:57.240
and computer science, most people who do that

00:18:59.060 --> 00:18:59.240
are not either developers and certainly not

00:19:01.640 --> 00:19:02.080
teachers. So I think that's a good idea.

00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:03.740
I'm gonna pick that up.

00:19:15.040 --> 00:19:15.540
So to do more Remax based data science videos

00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:20.200
Is there anything else?

00:19:22.260 --> 00:19:22.360
More people. There are some people here in

00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:23.300
the room still.

00:19:25.600 --> 00:19:26.100
[Speaker 2]: If you do a PSVL on work.

00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:31.140
What? Or wiki. What's my YouTube channel?

00:19:35.720 --> 00:19:36.220
[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you the,

00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:38.520
I've got a bunch of different YouTube

00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:40.720
channels. I'm going to put them in the

00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:43.240
comments to my talk. Hold on,

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:46.500
the 1 where I have the latest Emacs videos,

00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:48.740
you find my name, there's nobody in the world

00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:51.060
with my name. So if you look for Gerten Krag

00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:55.740
on YouTube, then you will find it.

00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:00.320
[Speaker 2]: But I got a bunch of them.

00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:01.940
Hold on, I'm going to give you the...

00:20:19.540 --> 00:20:20.040
[Speaker 1]: My channel. Okay, This 1 has only got a few

00:20:23.800 --> 00:20:24.300
videos. But so there's 1 with a lot more.

00:20:32.220 --> 00:20:32.720
Few recent videos. And I'm going to post

00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:41.320
more. Other ones in the comments of this

00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:44.340
video. Okay, what else?

00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:51.140
I'm trying to find my way back to the button.

00:20:58.980 --> 00:20:59.200
Okay, cool. Oh, yes, thank you.

00:21:01.220 --> 00:21:01.500
I will. That's very good.

00:21:02.780 --> 00:21:03.120
Thank you so much. Of course,

00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:05.940
I use Vork. I hadn't even thought of it.

00:21:14.640 --> 00:21:15.140
Very good. It's interesting,

00:21:17.520 --> 00:21:18.020
that's something that comes to my mind.

00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:19.700
When I was a young student,

00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:24.020
right, people who used Emacs and the web

00:21:25.420 --> 00:21:25.920
wasn't particularly large.

00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:29.440
So the volunteers would automatically make

00:21:30.920 --> 00:21:31.420
videos but not for commercial purposes.

00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:34.740
Now you have an army of people who make

00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:37.700
commercial videos and the videos are usually

00:21:40.560 --> 00:21:41.040
good for the first 10% of every content,

00:21:42.340 --> 00:21:42.540
but as soon as it gets a little more

00:21:44.620 --> 00:21:44.760
difficult, they either don't know what to do

00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:48.600
anymore or they don't do it because it's not

00:21:50.820 --> 00:21:50.980
commercially viable. The number of people who

00:21:53.520 --> 00:21:53.680
move on is gets smaller and smaller and

00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:55.740
smaller. So there's no commerce anymore.

00:21:57.340 --> 00:21:57.840
But when I was a student,

00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:00.980
pretty much all the documentation everywhere

00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:02.380
was created by volunteers,

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:04.840
just like this conference or like anything in

00:22:09.320 --> 00:22:09.480
org mode. And that doesn't seem to be much of

00:22:12.260 --> 00:22:12.760
a trend anymore, but maybe we can resurrect

00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:22.500
it. So, yes, I'm definitely going to

00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:25.840
contribute to that. Multiple people are

00:22:30.540 --> 00:22:31.040
typing here. Oh, sorry.

00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:36.180
Yes. Thank you so much.

00:22:40.760 --> 00:22:40.920
I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna rectify that in

00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:45.260
the comment. Having said that,

00:22:49.320 --> 00:22:49.820
I am not 100% sure that I didn't lie here.

00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:52.760
May just be because I didn't have much time

00:22:53.860 --> 00:22:54.340
to put the presentation together.

00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:56.820
And it's perfectly possible that that's

00:22:59.280 --> 00:22:59.780
actually Google slides and not all reveal.

00:23:02.120 --> 00:23:02.320
In the classroom when I present and just do

00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:04.100
lectures, I always do reveal,

00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:07.900
but most of the time I do a tree slide.

00:23:10.520 --> 00:23:10.840
That's the quickest way to do it for me.

00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:15.060
So, so presentation. Hold on,

00:23:16.080 --> 00:23:16.580
Let me just copy this 1.

00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:20.820
Make sure that this doesn't get lost.

00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:23.200
Thank you so much for that.

00:23:25.600 --> 00:23:26.100
And presentations in class.

00:23:29.820 --> 00:23:30.320
I use sometimes org-present,

00:23:32.360 --> 00:23:32.860
but there are issues with the font sometimes.

00:23:36.560 --> 00:23:36.960
I use Treeslide most of the time and Org

00:23:44.220 --> 00:23:44.720
[Speaker 2]: tool.

00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:46.780
[Speaker 1]: Reveal. But this 1 is my top Of course,

00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:49.140
this is not org, so forget about that.

00:24:07.720 --> 00:24:08.220
Okay. Yeah, so you can send me your,

00:24:11.680 --> 00:24:12.160
you've got my email, I think,

00:24:13.780 --> 00:24:14.060
on the end, if you're interested in following

00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:16.360
up or letting me know about your stuff.

00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:18.220
It might be interesting to,

00:24:19.840 --> 00:24:20.060
I don't know, might be interesting to put

00:24:21.540 --> 00:24:22.040
together a conference or a little seminar

00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.000
just for educators.

00:24:38.770 --> 00:24:39.025
DF is still typing, I'm waiting.

00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:39.780
I'm waiting.

00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:46.420
[Speaker 2]: Actually, our mod maintainer,

00:24:51.860 --> 00:24:52.280
Bastian, was talking about the possibility to

00:24:53.620 --> 00:24:54.120
have just an Org Mod conference.

00:24:59.020 --> 00:24:59.200
But the question is, is it worth making a

00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:02.940
[Speaker 1]: A whole separate 1 what?

00:25:04.740 --> 00:25:05.020
[Speaker 2]: whole separate 1? A whole separate org

00:25:09.100 --> 00:25:09.600
[Speaker 1]: Oh, I see. Yeah, probably would be.

00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340
Actually.

00:25:13.660 --> 00:25:13.940
[Speaker 2]: dedicated conference. It's just like you see

00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980
how EmacsConf is well done.

00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:19.440
So it's like creating anything that as good

00:25:25.040 --> 00:25:25.540
[Speaker 1]: Yes. No, I think that's a good idea.

00:25:26.120 --> 00:25:26.620
Yeah, I mean.

00:25:30.100 --> 00:25:30.480
[Speaker 2]: as tricky. I mean, Okay,

00:25:32.560 --> 00:25:32.920
it's anywhere, like half of Emacs is anywhere

00:25:36.380 --> 00:25:36.880
remote. So it's almost the same.

00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.200
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Well, I suppose at this point,

00:25:41.260 --> 00:25:41.580
I don't know if that's what you mean,

00:25:44.820 --> 00:25:45.040
Org Mode is probably what attracts people to

00:25:46.620 --> 00:25:47.060
Emacs in the first place.

00:25:50.540 --> 00:25:51.040
Like, I suppose Org Roam is the,

00:25:54.140 --> 00:25:54.600
maybe the biggest 1 for people even outside

00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:58.040
of computer science. I use Org.ROM

00:26:07.380 --> 00:26:07.560
for everything. I think the maintainer or

00:26:08.660 --> 00:26:09.140
maybe the creator of Org.MODE

00:26:11.460 --> 00:26:11.740
has claimed and said for many years that Org

00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:14.220
Mode itself doesn't actually necessarily need

00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:16.940
Emacs. You can have it as a completely

00:26:18.160 --> 00:26:18.660
separate application as well.

00:26:20.600 --> 00:26:21.020
But for a number of reasons,

00:26:23.300 --> 00:26:23.440
I don't like that. I really like the idea to

00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:30.660
[Speaker 2]: why- The current strategy is that It has to

00:26:33.420 --> 00:26:33.580
be Emacs because the configurability is 1 of

00:26:34.700 --> 00:26:35.140
the strong points anyway.

00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:35.800
[Speaker 1]: have it inside Emacs. The reason That's true.

00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:37.620
[Speaker 2]: You cannot make a separate application.

00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:39.800
[Speaker 1]: No, that's true. I was going to say that.

00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:41.460
The thing is you use the flexibility.

00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:43.220
Plus, you also use the,

00:26:45.800 --> 00:26:46.080
I don't know if that's the right word,

00:26:48.380 --> 00:26:48.760
but you use there's something about the free

00:26:52.420 --> 00:26:52.600
ideology of Emacs that is what attracted me

00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:56.260
to it in the first place when I was younger

00:26:59.620 --> 00:27:00.120
and that I find even more important now.

00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:03.480
So what they say the community aspect,

00:27:08.600 --> 00:27:08.800
the reason, the main reason why Python is so

00:27:12.620 --> 00:27:13.120
big today, really. So yeah.

00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:17.860
[Speaker 2]: But in terms of going out of Emacs,

00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:21.300
it's org syntax that is supposed to be like

00:27:22.760 --> 00:27:23.260
breaking out of Emacs.

00:27:28.340 --> 00:27:28.540
Yeah. So like there's a plan to lay out the

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:30.920
actual standard document so that you can

00:27:32.040 --> 00:27:32.540
register the format officially.

00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:34.760
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think I've heard that too.

00:27:36.060 --> 00:27:36.560
I've not followed up on it much.

00:27:38.820 --> 00:27:39.320
I don't know what the,

00:27:40.760 --> 00:27:41.260
I mean, that probably would,

00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:43.780
it would very likely, if you do that,

00:27:45.060 --> 00:27:45.380
it would at least for a short time,

00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:47.660
strengthen org mode and weaken emacs.

00:27:50.380 --> 00:27:50.880
I don't know what other examples,

00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:54.680
if there are other examples of applications

00:27:57.560 --> 00:27:57.840
pulled out of IDEs like that.

00:27:58.940 --> 00:27:59.440
I'm not aware of any others.

00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:02.660
[Speaker 2]: Actually, people are trying to make

00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:04.920
three-seater drama, people are trying to make

00:28:05.740 --> 00:28:06.120
like some external parsers,

00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:10.320
a lot of them. And a lot of stuff is done on

00:28:11.820 --> 00:28:12.320
mobile part, like Android,

00:28:13.820 --> 00:28:14.320
iOS, especially recently.

00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:18.980
So things that are Emacs independent are

00:28:22.940 --> 00:28:23.040
[Speaker 1]: Okay, yeah. I have no doubt that there is a

00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:26.620
[Speaker 2]: demanded. Especially in the environment,

00:28:27.540 --> 00:28:28.040
like every time.

00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:30.680
[Speaker 1]: demand. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get into that

00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:35.020
very much. I have some of my students have 0

00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:36.900
affinity with computers.

00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:39.900
They really don't know their way around their

00:28:43.820 --> 00:28:44.320
computers at all. And so for them,

00:28:50.980 --> 00:28:51.440
It is quite important to learn how to find

00:28:56.380 --> 00:28:56.520
your way around Emacs because it's like a

00:28:57.320 --> 00:28:57.820
little operating system,

00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:00.300
but it's not. It's an operating system

00:29:03.460 --> 00:29:03.960
without much of the obscurity.

00:29:07.760 --> 00:29:07.960
And the alternative to that would be to

00:29:10.040 --> 00:29:10.520
simply let them work only on the command

00:29:11.980 --> 00:29:12.480
line, which is another possibility.

00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:16.160
But, you know, there of course you are

00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:20.520
limited with regard to if you want to swap

00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:23.500
languages. So for example,

00:29:25.900 --> 00:29:26.000
quite often I find myself in the situation I

00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.780
teach data science in R and Python and in

00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:31.520
Emacs org mode I can demonstrate both of

00:29:34.600 --> 00:29:35.100
these side by side in the same file.

00:29:38.200 --> 00:29:38.700
And that's a great advantage.

00:29:42.040 --> 00:29:42.540
Not to overburden the students when they are

00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:45.100
at the beginning with things that you don't

00:29:47.120 --> 00:29:47.620
want them to necessarily learn about.

00:29:50.560 --> 00:29:51.000
And plus the thing what I like as a graduate

00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:54.400
student when I stepped onto Emacs was that it

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:00.140
was infinite possibilities to lose myself in

00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:03.060
Emacs and you know go on and learn more stuff

00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:06.340
about it. But it's such a long time ago that

00:30:09.860 --> 00:30:10.360
I barely dare to mention it anymore.

00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:12.880
[Speaker 2]: For command line, actually,

00:30:16.820 --> 00:30:17.080
it's since the Jupyter notebooks and that

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:19.380
Google thing they are running.

00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:23.820
It's getting so popular that it's clear that

00:30:26.600 --> 00:30:26.760
command line is just losing in popularity in

00:30:31.420 --> 00:30:31.920
[Speaker 1]: well, yes and no. I mean,

00:30:32.860 --> 00:30:33.360
[Speaker 2]: this. Yeah, of course,

00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:38.400
Not the usage. People are still using it,

00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:38.900
obviously.

00:30:40.520 --> 00:30:41.020
[Speaker 1]: I mean, in Google Colab,

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:43.620
only the paid version allows you to go to the

00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:45.460
terminal and use the command line.

00:30:48.140 --> 00:30:48.580
But of course, the traction,

00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:50.140
and I think that's kind of interesting,

00:30:54.560 --> 00:30:54.680
1 of the reasons why IPython or any of the

00:30:56.780 --> 00:30:56.960
Jupyter notebooks are so cool is because you

00:30:59.440 --> 00:30:59.940
can use a lot of shell commands from the

00:31:04.620 --> 00:31:05.100
IPython shell. There's a whole bunch of magic

00:31:06.460 --> 00:31:06.960
commands which are quite powerful.

00:31:09.620 --> 00:31:10.120
The 1 that comes to mind is a time,

00:31:11.820 --> 00:31:12.320
the time command, for example,

00:31:13.580 --> 00:31:14.080
you know, it gives you a really nice,

00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:16.800
performance, quick performance check.

00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:18.120
There's a bunch of different,

00:31:20.500 --> 00:31:20.900
I think probably close to a hundred magic

00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:22.840
commands that you can use in Jupyter.

00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:25.840
But I don't know JupyterLab too well,

00:31:28.840 --> 00:31:29.220
but I noticed that the companies that do

00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:31.080
online training, And they are usually the

00:31:34.600 --> 00:31:34.920
ones that are closest to what beginners want,

00:31:35.600 --> 00:31:36.100
especially in business.

00:31:40.780 --> 00:31:40.960
And what those companies do is they take

00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.220
JupiterLab and turn it into a presentation of

00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:44.800
their own. Another 1 is Notable,

00:31:47.380 --> 00:31:47.880
notable.io. That's another 1.

00:31:50.280 --> 00:31:50.500
They took JupyterLab and turned it into

00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:52.200
something commercial. It's boosted up a

00:31:58.680 --> 00:31:58.860
little bit. And so the shell inside the

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:01.960
JupyterLab has some of the most more

00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:03.620
important shell properties.

00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:06.000
And so people still use the command line

00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:07.600
without knowing that they use the command

00:32:12.600 --> 00:32:13.100
line. But I also like doing,

00:32:14.820 --> 00:32:15.320
how do I use org-roam?

00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:22.020
Well, I use it, I do not have not used it

00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:23.000
with the students yet,

00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:25.020
only the best students have sort of seen me

00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:29.760
use it and copied it. But I use it probably

00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:32.000
in a very naive, trivial way.

00:32:33.080 --> 00:32:33.580
I can't say that I am,

00:32:36.460 --> 00:32:36.960
that I have a very sophisticated use.

00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:39.640
I basically, I like the fact that,

00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:43.100
I mean, it's built on the original concept of

00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:44.540
the, with the German word,

00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:48.280
Zettelkasten, right? Which is that you do not

00:32:50.780 --> 00:32:50.940
have to think about a taxonomy because as you

00:32:53.620 --> 00:32:53.800
move along, your taxonomy changes all the

00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:55.580
time. You know, what you think is important

00:32:56.820 --> 00:32:57.320
at the beginning, your root node,

00:32:58.480 --> 00:32:58.940
as you go along, you realize,

00:33:00.220 --> 00:33:00.600
oh, that's not the root node at all.

00:33:02.560 --> 00:33:02.720
There's a higher level and a higher level and

00:33:04.540 --> 00:33:04.780
some of the lower levels aren't at the lower

00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:06.280
level, they're actually at the higher level.

00:33:09.960 --> 00:33:10.460
So you're beginning to create hierarchies

00:33:13.940 --> 00:33:14.280
that are out of date as soon as you create

00:33:16.260 --> 00:33:16.360
the hierarchy. So what is the idea of the

00:33:18.340 --> 00:33:18.480
tittle custom is that anything that comes to

00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:21.100
your mind you can throw in the custom the box

00:33:26.240 --> 00:33:26.540
it literally means Box of notes and That's

00:33:27.560 --> 00:33:27.740
what I appreciate about it.

00:33:32.780 --> 00:33:32.920
So I create a I create a note pretty much for

00:33:35.280 --> 00:33:35.780
anything I do, but I've only used it for

00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:38.160
about a year and a half or so,

00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:39.740
or grown, maybe a year.

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:43.700
So I can see that I'm coming up against the

00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:46.980
Zettelkasten or note box problems,

00:33:50.660 --> 00:33:50.860
which is that I've got so many notes now that

00:33:52.460 --> 00:33:52.960
unless I have clever aliases,

00:33:56.580 --> 00:33:56.680
there is a chance that I might forget that I

00:33:59.540 --> 00:34:00.040
[Speaker 2]: That's why you need meta-notes.

00:34:01.100 --> 00:34:01.600
[Speaker 1]: have a note. So I need a- Yes,

00:34:04.420 --> 00:34:04.920
[Speaker 2]: In other words, a summarization is important,

00:34:06.300 --> 00:34:06.800
no matter what system you use.

00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:09.719
[Speaker 1]: yes. But what I'm trying to say is that's a

00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:11.260
different approach than hierarchies,

00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:13.580
right? It's the same, it's the same,

00:34:15.460 --> 00:34:15.960
it's the same principle as a relational

00:34:18.219 --> 00:34:18.719
database versus a hierarchical database.

00:34:23.179 --> 00:34:23.360
Same thing. So, yeah, I've not used that.

00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:25.400
I've not really used, actually I have cut

00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:27.020
meta notes, of course I do.

00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:28.940
So notes that point to other notes.

00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:32.320
Yes, of course. I use those.

00:34:32.780 --> 00:34:33.280
I have forgotten that.

00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:38.800
I have not taught that part to the students

00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:42.840
because I do project work with the students,

00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:46.360
but there's only so much time.

00:34:47.719 --> 00:34:48.219
I'm already, I mean, already,

00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:50.980
I don't think there's any class that where I

00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:55.820
am able to use more than 30% of my material.

00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:57.620
And the reason is that when the students come

00:34:59.120 --> 00:34:59.220
to class, which is I pointed out in the

00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:01.100
video, they know so little.

00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:03.720
And most of the students,

00:35:04.680 --> 00:35:04.960
at least in liberal arts,

00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:10.280
spend just too little time outside of class,

00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:11.600
getting there, you know,

00:35:12.660 --> 00:35:13.040
drilling down into the,

00:35:14.140 --> 00:35:14.640
into the, into the infrastructure,

00:35:16.700 --> 00:35:17.060
into the work. Only, only the best students

00:35:18.820 --> 00:35:19.320
do that. The ones that really catch fire.

00:35:21.960 --> 00:35:22.280
[Speaker 2]: Don't you have something like a course

00:35:23.260 --> 00:35:23.760
project at the end?

00:35:25.460 --> 00:35:25.760
[Speaker 1]: Yes, I have course, not at the end.

00:35:27.340 --> 00:35:27.720
I use Scrum. Maybe I shouldn't,

00:35:29.140 --> 00:35:29.640
but I've used Scrum for many years.

00:35:32.440 --> 00:35:32.600
So I have course projects that start at the

00:35:35.080 --> 00:35:35.320
beginning and they do sprint reviews every 3

00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:40.640
or 4 weeks. So term end projects I find

00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:43.100
completely useless because the students do

00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:45.260
the work at the very end of the term.

00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:49.740
[Speaker 2]: By term end I mean they don't start at the

00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:51.880
end, they just report at the end.

00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:54.300
[Speaker 1]: I use the IMRAD, I use the IMRAD method.

00:35:57.720 --> 00:35:58.220
So I use IMRAD, basically IMRAD plus,

00:35:59.900 --> 00:36:00.300
plus Scrum, right? So,

00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:02.220
So the first sprint review is introductory,

00:36:02.980 --> 00:36:03.480
the research proposal,

00:36:04.540 --> 00:36:05.040
the second 1 is about methodology,

00:36:05.880 --> 00:36:06.360
the third 1 about results,

00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040
and the last 1 is their final presentation.

00:36:10.600 --> 00:36:11.100
And so that's the way I manage the projects,

00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:16.020
but that's about as much as I can do with

00:36:17.380 --> 00:36:17.680
them. It's a good idea.

00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.780
I hadn't even thought about using Org-ROM

00:36:22.640 --> 00:36:22.760
with them, but to teach them that might be a

00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:24.180
good idea, actually.

00:36:26.720 --> 00:36:27.220
[Speaker 2]: Well, for Org-ROM, actually,

00:36:32.060 --> 00:36:32.340
what I found useful during my graduate is for

00:36:34.240 --> 00:36:34.740
literature review. Yes.

00:36:37.080 --> 00:36:37.340
The other part of our program that is not

00:36:39.520 --> 00:36:40.020
about your like, noting down your thoughts,

00:36:42.340 --> 00:36:42.840
is about writing about literature notes.

00:36:44.860 --> 00:36:45.180
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's a good idea,

00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:46.060
actually. And of course,

00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:47.960
I mean, there's more stuff that they should

00:36:49.700 --> 00:36:50.140
learn, you know, like another 1,

00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:51.780
since you mentioned literature,

00:36:54.140 --> 00:36:54.640
you know, latex and Bibtech is another

00:36:57.340 --> 00:36:57.840
obvious extension of that.

00:37:01.020 --> 00:37:01.120
But that is actually a good idea because the

00:37:02.720 --> 00:37:03.080
literature is what they have the hardest time

00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:06.980
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, like when you need to read like 50

00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:07.480
papers.

00:37:12.260 --> 00:37:12.480
[Speaker 1]: with. Last term, since you mentioned that,

00:37:16.020 --> 00:37:16.220
I had a really nice experience because 1 of

00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:18.300
our librarians, our digital librarian,

00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:19.920
came along and talked to the students,

00:37:21.300 --> 00:37:21.580
and he taught me about a tool called

00:37:23.040 --> 00:37:23.540
litmap.com, which is basically,

00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:25.420
I don't know how it's implemented,

00:37:26.680 --> 00:37:27.180
but it's basically a graph,

00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:31.620
a graph representation of papers organized by

00:37:35.080 --> 00:37:35.580
citation. It's very, very cool.

00:37:38.160 --> 00:37:38.560
And the students who used to only find,

00:37:40.520 --> 00:37:41.020
I don't know, 1 paper and otherwise,

00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:44.940
of course, 15 YouTube videos and 100 blogs,

00:37:48.860 --> 00:37:49.360
suddenly started finding and reading

00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.120
scientific papers. It was only because of

00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:54.900
this presentation. So you should take the,

00:37:57.060 --> 00:37:57.560
I think, I hope that is the right,

00:37:59.060 --> 00:37:59.560
that's the right mode,

00:38:01.940 --> 00:38:02.380
litmaps. Okay, it's not litmap,

00:38:05.500 --> 00:38:05.640
it's called Litmaps. I'm gonna give you an

00:38:08.860 --> 00:38:09.000
example. I don't know if I can share this,

00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:10.240
if you can look at that.

00:38:13.140 --> 00:38:13.640
But basically you create a,

00:38:16.080 --> 00:38:16.580
1 can use 1 of your papers as a seed,

00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:18.840
and then it will create a graph,

00:38:21.260 --> 00:38:21.760
graph representation of it for you.

00:38:24.720 --> 00:38:25.220
And this is a powerful tool in itself.

00:38:27.100 --> 00:38:27.600
But what I'm saying is that the students

00:38:30.700 --> 00:38:30.860
suddenly, their use of literature and that

00:38:32.120 --> 00:38:32.620
citation goes to the roof.

00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:36.140
And I've been waiting for that for probably

00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:38.260
15 years since I've started teaching.

00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:43.400
So it's crazy. That's really cool.

00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:47.720
[Speaker 2]: So here is the same tool,

00:38:48.900 --> 00:38:49.400
it's called connected papers.

00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:53.540
It's based on the open source citation data.

00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:56.340
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I know that as well,

00:38:56.680 --> 00:38:57.180
I think.

00:39:01.240 --> 00:39:01.480
[Speaker 2]: It's actually very useful when you just start

00:39:03.680 --> 00:39:03.960
learning the topic, it's like you find 1

00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:05.800
paper, then you look into the connections,

00:39:07.900 --> 00:39:08.260
you can quickly narrow down to the most

00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:10.260
cited, the core papers on the topic.

00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:12.520
[Speaker 1]: Of course, and that is exactly their

00:39:14.640 --> 00:39:14.820
situation, you know, and they're always at

00:39:16.240 --> 00:39:16.740
the beginning. As you go on,

00:39:18.420 --> 00:39:18.680
you develop different ways,

00:39:19.640 --> 00:39:20.140
but for these complete beginners,

00:39:22.500 --> 00:39:22.680
that's a good idea. Thank you so much for

00:39:30.020 --> 00:39:30.520
[Speaker 0]: anything else?

00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:31.940
[Speaker 1]: that. Okay, guys, I've enjoyed the

00:39:33.460 --> 00:39:33.960
conversation, so you should definitely,

00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:37.940
I'm going to take some of these things away.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.280
Thank you so much for that.

00:39:45.240 --> 00:39:45.740
Have you done, Yanta, have you done org mode

00:39:47.700 --> 00:39:48.200
documentations yourself on WOC?

00:39:51.820 --> 00:39:52.120
Or do you have a sort of a favorite 1?

00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:53.600
I mean, I often on walk,

00:39:56.480 --> 00:39:56.740
I often use the documentation for code

00:39:59.440 --> 00:39:59.620
blocks. I used to when I started doing that

00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:02.800
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, because it's only on work.

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:04.260
It's not part of the manual.

00:40:05.140 --> 00:40:05.280
[Speaker 1]: for the first time. Yeah,

00:40:06.940 --> 00:40:07.440
yeah. And so I've used that a lot.

00:40:09.060 --> 00:40:09.560
[Speaker 2]: Have I done? Not really,

00:40:10.960 --> 00:40:11.460
mostly fixing the errors.

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:15.560
Okay. Yeah, I think that's a really good

00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:16.060
idea.

00:40:19.280 --> 00:40:19.780
[Speaker 1]: All right. Well, thank you very much.

00:40:22.040 --> 00:40:22.360
And it's great to be at this conference.

00:40:23.940 --> 00:40:24.440
I think I'm going to get on.

00:40:28.740 --> 00:40:29.240
[Speaker 2]: Thanks for answering all the questions.

00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:32.560
And for the talk, It was quite interesting to

00:40:35.160 --> 00:40:35.660
see our modules in actual teaching.

00:40:38.240 --> 00:40:38.560
[Speaker 1]: Yes, thank you. And I got to thank Daniel

00:40:40.600 --> 00:40:40.840
German from Canada, the 1 of,

00:40:43.580 --> 00:40:43.660
I had him on 1 of the slides because he,

00:40:45.140 --> 00:40:45.350
he inspired me to do that.

00:40:47.420 --> 00:40:47.540
And, and I wouldn't be at the conference if I

00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:49.480
hadn't contacted him and said oh here's my

00:40:50.860 --> 00:40:51.020
paper and he said oh you should come to the

00:40:52.540 --> 00:40:52.680
conference and so that's why I came to the

00:40:58.200 --> 00:40:58.480
conference. Thank you very much and as they

00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:04.104
say keep in touch. You're welcome.

00:41:04.836 --> 00:41:05.080
Okay bye-bye. You're welcome.

00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:15.820
Okay, bye-bye. Take a copy of the chat before

00:41:22.020 --> 00:41:22.360
you go, if you can. Happy weekend to just bye

00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:22.860
bye.

00:41:36.660 --> 00:41:36.840
[Speaker 2]: You are currently the only person in this

00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.340
conference.