[Speaker 0]: Again, second only live Q&A of the day.
So, things are still a bit rusty,
but believe me, by the end of the morning,
we will be well-oiled machinery.
So, hi Marcus, how are you doing?
[Speaker 1]: I'm fine, Thank you.
[Speaker 0]: I really liked, most people might have
forgotten, but you started your presentation
with the, in a very dark room and with this
typical note of dry German humor that I
particularly liked.
[Speaker 1]: Whereas I told you we're born without humour
so any sense of humour is the result of very
hard work.
[Speaker 0]: Well I can confirm therefore that your work
is evident in this particular remark.
So as we did before and perhaps this time
more punctiliously, terrible adverb,
that's why I'm an English major we will be
taking questions first from the pad and then
we'll be moving on to people in the BBV room.
Let me just check if we have some people.
We do have some people.
All right, so Markus, I'm gonna ask you the
questions in the pad unless you have
something to remark first.
[Speaker 1]: Yes, oh no, no, I don't have nothing to
remark. I mean, only that we're coming to the
end of the term here, and I think in the
paper that I wrote, I expressed doubt that
Emacs was good for beginners,
but I've now gone back to an interactive
notebook in the class without Emacs,
and I've just missed it terribly the whole
term. And I think I saw you walk too,
so that's kind of interesting.
That's it.
[Speaker 0]: Right. All right, well,
let's get started with the questions because
I'm a little worried that we might acquire
debt because of the time that we have.
And just to be clear, so that you also know
the time at which we're supposed to be
finishing, the next talk here on this track
is supposed to be at 10.40,
which is in 13 minutes from now.
All right, with that said,
starting with the first questions.
What tools do you use for making your slides?
They are very nice and I concur.
OrgReveal?
[Speaker 1]: I use OrgReveal. It's a package,
OrgReveal. I don't have the link right now,
but it's an org mode package where You create
some meta information and I think it's
basically JavaScript, JavaScript package that
will work from a bunch of different
platforms, but it works particularly well
from Emacs. So you use that a lot.
[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah, I think it is definitely
interacting with JavaScript in the background
and it makes for a very clean presentation
right from Emacs. I mean,
it's not opened in Emacs unless you use a web
browser in Emacs that supports such
compositing but it's pretty convenient and I
recommend looking into it.
[Speaker 1]: I'm just going to share the URL here.
So if anybody's interested.
[Speaker 0]: Right, and we'll be putting all the links
right now. So obviously right now,
Marcus is writing inside of his own Emacs,
but we also have the pad.
We'll make sure that you have all the links
accessible a little bit later.
Okay, moving on to the next question,
why MDPI?
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, well that's a little bit of a longer
answer, kind of boring I suppose.
So when I came here to the US,
I used to teach a lot of graduate courses and
I had to suddenly teach a lot of
undergraduate courses,
which partly motivated this move because it
made me realize, as I said in the
presentation, how little the students
understand of the underlying infrastructure
and how important it is for them to work with
an IDE that doesn't make coding especially
convenient, but that teaches them a lot of
the stuff on the side,
you know, while still presenting a very
smooth environment, which developers
appreciate as well. So I came here and I used
to publish like 4 or 5 research papers per
year, but I didn't have the time.
So I was contacted by MDPI.
And it's 1 of those research paper mills,
which seem to be springing up where authors
can, really the institutions of the authors
have to pay so that they can publish,
right? So it's not really,
and I checked them out and they seem to be
proper peer review publishing,
but to be absolutely sure I said,
well, you can have my article,
but of course for free,
I'm not going to pay for you to publish it.
And so that's what they did.
They invited me and I submitted the paper and
it was a very good process.
That was a very, it was a good peer review
critique. So I changed the paper quite a bit.
It's still not a great paper.
It's just a small case study.
That's the kind of thing that you have a lot
in medical research where also people don't
have a lot of time to do research,
proper research, which takes a very long
time. And so that's why MDPI.
And they are in the most of the relevant
citation indices. So they are reputable
enough. I mean, normally I would say for
anybody who does anything like this,
you might not even want to bother with the
journal these days anymore.
You just go straight to ArcSci,
put out your preprint.
And in fact, what will happen if you're on
ArcSci, if somebody finds it interesting,
they're going to reach out to you to capture
your paper and have it published under their
heading. Oh yeah, actually the other reason
why I wanted MDPI is because there were open
access from the start.
And I really like, if you go to the paper,
I really like the way it's presented.
So I looked at a few papers and I thought
it's a really nice online access,
online open access solution.
That's the long answer,
sorry.
[Speaker 0]: No, that was perfectly fine and you provided
many details so it was far from a boring
answer, let me reassure you.
Moving on to the question,
we only have about 8 minutes left so I'd like
to finish those 2 questions and let people in
the audience speak. So do you think immersion
can be achieved on teaching other students
with different backgrounds?
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, that's a really good question.
I had actually a discussion last night with
my wife in bed about this,
about the use of textbooks which are famously
non-immersive because they're consumed away
from the class. Very rarely you sit in class
like people used to do and read something
together. Maybe they did that in English.
And that is of course instantly immersive.
But in computer science,
many other topics, psychology,
you know, biology and so on,
you cannot get immersion,
at least not in a lecture theater.
You get it in a lab because people solve the
problem and then they're immersed in it.
So, but my answer would be,
yes, I can think totally immersion can be
achieved anywhere, but what you have to do is
you have to not lecture and you have to let
students do work as you go along.
So I used to lecture quite a bit because I
was an insecure young professor and just read
all my slides and my notes as I used to use,
as everybody uses to when they start.
But as I went along, I realized,
you know, I've got such a grasp of the topic
that I really everything I do now is prepared
in Emacs in an interactive way so I start
saying a few words and then the students
immediately we get to work and they seem to
love that because in most of the other
classes people just talk at them they take
their stuff home and work at home,
which is of course is super.
But most of the students,
if they have, in at least in a liberal arts
college, they have 5 other classes,
they do not take a lot of time to do the work
at home. So it's, you know,
yeah, It's kind of different.
It's kind of risky, yeah,
but the main point I was trying to make is
Emacs and Org Mode really helped me to boil
that interactive session down to something
that will work in the classroom.
I don't have to jump around between
platforms. For example,
this term, and I didn't use Emacs in the
class with the students,
I had to render using a package.
It's actually a very nice package called,
what's it called? Ox, what's it called?
Ox, Ox IPNB. It's called Ox IPNB.
So what it does is it renders in the usual
way with Emacs, Org Mode does,
renders interactive notebook files in
Jupyter. And that took me a lot of time.
And I immediately noticed as soon as the
teacher has to fight platforms themselves,
they take the ball off the immersion task,
you know, to keep the student on the problem.
[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, go on, please.
Yeah. I was going to remark that.
[Speaker 1]: So yeah, absolutely. Yeah,
I suppose it might be MIT style.
Big difference though,
my classes are very, very short,
small. So I have like between 10 and 15
students per class. 1 of the reasons why I
went to this college is because I was fed up
teaching, trying to teach hundreds of
students. Okay, sorry,
do some of your students nag you about using
VS Code? Yes, they do,
but their arguments aren't very good.
They hadn't really compared Emacs and VS
Code. And what I do, actually I use RStudio
as well, demonstrate VS Code,
RStudio and Emacs. And I think it's very easy
for them to see. And there are some videos
about that as well, how much easier it is to
get into Emacs to limit your investments to
what you actually wanna do.
When the problem with VS Code is it comes at
you with this sort of Microsoft store
ideology, like a gazillion plugins,
which if you're a developer,
you know what you want.
And I mean, it's a bit like VS Code is like
Google search for as if you were programming
in Google search, a complete waste of time.
Having said that, I've also seen some videos
with people who really know how to use VS
Code. And of course, you know,
if somebody gets on the inside of a tool and
spends upwards of a thousand hours in the
tool, they'll be great.
But that's not true for beginners.
So hold on, there's another 1.
I'm reading them, sorry.
Leo, I can see the questions,
but you may wanna turn them around.
[Speaker 0]: No, No, no, please, please,
you're free to read them.
I'm on your fasted computer.
[Speaker 1]: Some of you, too, that's the nagging.
I teach simple programming at a vocational
school, and even after showing the students
Vim, Vim, of course, is a contender,
and now I'm telling them I prefer Emacs.
They still all choose VS Code as their
editor. Well, okay, what I did is mandatory.
I didn't let them choose.
That's what I did. And I thought that was
quite risky, but in the end,
it turns out that the best students loved it
and keep using Emacs in their jobs.
I hear that now. The students in the middle
were probably the ones who would pick VS Code
because every tutorial they see,
they learn a lot through YouTube and so
everything they see is in VS Code.
If there were more tutorials in Emacs,
I'm trying to make some,
then of course that would be different.
But I think it's partly brainwashing and
partly, of course, the other reason is there
is no online Emacs. They use VS Code Dev,
right? And that's, of course,
they use an online cloud solution.
Like most of the students in the high school,
I teach Python in the high school right now,
and the students only get Chromebooks that
are completely cut down to nothing.
They cannot have Linux on their Chromebooks.
So what are they supposed to do?
Their only choice really is Repl.
Repl.com is a possibility for them to do
that. But, you know, or they use code spaces,
which is VS Code in GitHub.
[Speaker 0]: Marcus, sorry for the interruption.
We only have about 2 minutes left.
So if you could take 1 question,
that would be great. Sorry.
[Speaker 1]: So. I'm observing the same behavior.
Any more tutorials will be most welcome.
Yes, I I'd love to. I spent the rest of my
days on this earth making Emacs tutorials if
[Speaker 0]: tutorials if I can.
[Speaker 1]: I can. Thank you. DMAX Thank you.
Approach to handling EDA.
Oh yeah, with white data sets.
Well, that's a good point.
[Speaker 0]: So Markus, I don't want to put you under too
[Speaker 1]: answer the question. The handling EDA,
I don't know, if you look at the comments,
I think these are on YouTube,
right, at some point, Leo?
[Speaker 0]: much pressure to Oh yes,
they will definitely be on YouTube.
answer the
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to question you asked about the
EDA, that's too long to go into right now,
plus my cat is here. So I'm going to answer
that in the comments, all right?
Start up the conversation.
Yes, I'm going to post that in the comments
as well.
[Speaker 0]: Sure, but Also, just to be clear,
Marcus, you're going to continue the
discussion. It's just a stream that will be
moving on to the next talk in about 50
seconds. Marcus, feel free to keep answering
questions inside this room.
You also have people, we're going to check
aside with the stream,
we have a number of people in the room.
You can see them on the left on the button
who are probably going to unmute themselves
and ask you questions.
So feel free to stay in the room,
answer as lengthy as you want the questions
because that's more content for us and we
love it obviously. But it's just that I
personally will be leaving to take care of
the rest of the talks.
So, Markus, do you have any last words before
we move on?
[Speaker 1]: No, just thank you for this wonderful...
I'm going to copy this.
I don't think I listened to the talk by
Sascha yet, but I'm going to do that because
I really want to copy this conference format.
I think that is the conference format of the
future, using volunteers to put together
conferences. So I can't wait.
Nobody wants to come to Batesville where I
am, but thank you so much.
That was really super professional.
I love that.
[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay, we are almost perfectly on time.
I think we caught up about 1 or 2 seconds
into the last sentence you said but otherwise
we were splendidly on time.
So thank you so much Marcus.
[Speaker 1]: You're welcome. So I wanted to say a little
bit about that question about handling EDA.
[Speaker 0]: Can you see the chat on the left?
Because people have started asking questions
on the left. Can you see the chat?
[Speaker 1]: I mean I used email. Sorry,
[Speaker 0]: So you've got multiple avenues for questions.
[Speaker 2]: You can
[Speaker 0]: still answer questions in the chat.
[Speaker 1]: sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm just going to go into
that. Yeah, that's fine.
[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll need to go now.
So Marcus, have a great day and I'll probably
see you later.
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, thank you. Sorry.
Bye bye. There was a question about the,
I wanted to ask the answer the question about
EDA, large data sets. So,
I mean, I teach undergraduate now,
so there's a limited number of courses,
like where I use, actually have big data
issues. And I mean I'm not saying that I'm
not that I don't run into performance issues
with Emacs. I obviously do.
But like the performance issues in Emacs are
comparable to performance issues for example
when using R. In R everything is in memory So
you are limited to the available,
what is it, 2 gigabyte or whatever memory of
your computer. So you would have to find
other infrastructure solutions anyway.
The advantage of using Emacs is that I can,
within 1 Org Mode file,
connect to an external database.
I can even, as probably most of you know,
I can even use it as a text-based web browser
if I want to. So I could look at individual
files. And the other point of EDA of course
is that you're not supposed to look at the
tables. You're supposed to get the basic
frame of your data. Is there a header?
What's the approximate size and stuff like
that? And then you're supposed to import it
into a data frame ideally,
at least in portions. And I don't think,
yeah, so that's it. But the full answer is
that I have not done big data analysis in
Emacs. So that's actually a really nice
extension. I'm going to write that down as a
thing to talk about in some future talk.
Okay, so ADA with big data.
Even though interesting would be to know what
kind of size of data you're actually talking
about. So I don't know,
what is it, upwards of 1 terabyte or
something like that, I don't know.
That'd be interesting to know.
Haven't done that in class.
So there's another question.
Proportion of students that you think would
keep on using Emacs after your course?
That's not a difficult question,
because as I said, I have very small classes.
I've been here since 2 years.
So I'm in touch with almost all the students.
In fact, I'm getting them work after school.
So that's really cool.
And everybody who took to Emacs really
seriously, so probably about 25% or so keep
using Emacs after, afterwards.
I mean, even in the job,
right, in the professional field.
Who, those who keep using Emacs after the
course, I think the number is greater,
but I have not followed up on that.
I have to, my guess is more than half,
I would say, half or more than half.
Oh, Aaron, thank you so much.
That's very sweet. But I didn't think the
presentation was great.
I was thinking about redoing it,
but this is actually the first take.
It was late, I had lots of other stuff to do.
I think what I'm more interested in than
papers is probably this idea of making
Emacs-based data science videos because there
aren't many out there.
Most of the people who do,
and computer science, most people who do that
are not either developers and certainly not
teachers. So I think that's a good idea.
I'm gonna pick that up.
So to do more Remax based data science videos
Is there anything else?
More people. There are some people here in
the room still.
[Speaker 2]: If you do a PSVL on work.
What? Or wiki. What's my YouTube channel?
[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you the,
I've got a bunch of different YouTube
channels. I'm going to put them in the
comments to my talk. Hold on,
the 1 where I have the latest Emacs videos,
you find my name, there's nobody in the world
with my name. So if you look for Gerten Krag
on YouTube, then you will find it.
[Speaker 2]: But I got a bunch of them.
Hold on, I'm going to give you the...
[Speaker 1]: My channel. Okay, This 1 has only got a few
videos. But so there's 1 with a lot more.
Few recent videos. And I'm going to post
more. Other ones in the comments of this
video. Okay, what else?
I'm trying to find my way back to the button.
Okay, cool. Oh, yes, thank you.
I will. That's very good.
Thank you so much. Of course,
I use Vork. I hadn't even thought of it.
Very good. It's interesting,
that's something that comes to my mind.
When I was a young student,
right, people who used Emacs and the web
wasn't particularly large.
So the volunteers would automatically make
videos but not for commercial purposes.
Now you have an army of people who make
commercial videos and the videos are usually
good for the first 10% of every content,
but as soon as it gets a little more
difficult, they either don't know what to do
anymore or they don't do it because it's not
commercially viable. The number of people who
move on is gets smaller and smaller and
smaller. So there's no commerce anymore.
But when I was a student,
pretty much all the documentation everywhere
was created by volunteers,
just like this conference or like anything in
org mode. And that doesn't seem to be much of
a trend anymore, but maybe we can resurrect
it. So, yes, I'm definitely going to
contribute to that. Multiple people are
typing here. Oh, sorry.
Yes. Thank you so much.
I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna rectify that in
the comment. Having said that,
I am not 100% sure that I didn't lie here.
May just be because I didn't have much time
to put the presentation together.
And it's perfectly possible that that's
actually Google slides and not all reveal.
In the classroom when I present and just do
lectures, I always do reveal,
but most of the time I do a tree slide.
That's the quickest way to do it for me.
So, so presentation. Hold on,
Let me just copy this 1.
Make sure that this doesn't get lost.
Thank you so much for that.
And presentations in class.
I use sometimes org-present,
but there are issues with the font sometimes.
I use Treeslide most of the time and Org
[Speaker 2]: tool.
[Speaker 1]: Reveal. But this 1 is my top Of course,
this is not org, so forget about that.
Okay. Yeah, so you can send me your,
you've got my email, I think,
on the end, if you're interested in following
up or letting me know about your stuff.
It might be interesting to,
I don't know, might be interesting to put
together a conference or a little seminar
just for educators.
DF is still typing, I'm waiting.
I'm waiting.
[Speaker 2]: Actually, our mod maintainer,
Bastian, was talking about the possibility to
have just an Org Mod conference.
But the question is, is it worth making a
[Speaker 1]: A whole separate 1 what?
[Speaker 2]: whole separate 1? A whole separate org
[Speaker 1]: Oh, I see. Yeah, probably would be.
Actually.
[Speaker 2]: dedicated conference. It's just like you see
how EmacsConf is well done.
So it's like creating anything that as good
[Speaker 1]: Yes. No, I think that's a good idea.
Yeah, I mean.
[Speaker 2]: as tricky. I mean, Okay,
it's anywhere, like half of Emacs is anywhere
remote. So it's almost the same.
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Well, I suppose at this point,
I don't know if that's what you mean,
Org Mode is probably what attracts people to
Emacs in the first place.
Like, I suppose Org Roam is the,
maybe the biggest 1 for people even outside
of computer science. I use Org.ROM
for everything. I think the maintainer or
maybe the creator of Org.MODE
has claimed and said for many years that Org
Mode itself doesn't actually necessarily need
Emacs. You can have it as a completely
separate application as well.
But for a number of reasons,
I don't like that. I really like the idea to
[Speaker 2]: why- The current strategy is that It has to
be Emacs because the configurability is 1 of
the strong points anyway.
[Speaker 1]: have it inside Emacs. The reason That's true.
[Speaker 2]: You cannot make a separate application.
[Speaker 1]: No, that's true. I was going to say that.
The thing is you use the flexibility.
Plus, you also use the,
I don't know if that's the right word,
but you use there's something about the free
ideology of Emacs that is what attracted me
to it in the first place when I was younger
and that I find even more important now.
So what they say the community aspect,
the reason, the main reason why Python is so
big today, really. So yeah.
[Speaker 2]: But in terms of going out of Emacs,
it's org syntax that is supposed to be like
breaking out of Emacs.
Yeah. So like there's a plan to lay out the
actual standard document so that you can
register the format officially.
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think I've heard that too.
I've not followed up on it much.
I don't know what the,
I mean, that probably would,
it would very likely, if you do that,
it would at least for a short time,
strengthen org mode and weaken emacs.
I don't know what other examples,
if there are other examples of applications
pulled out of IDEs like that.
I'm not aware of any others.
[Speaker 2]: Actually, people are trying to make
three-seater drama, people are trying to make
like some external parsers,
a lot of them. And a lot of stuff is done on
mobile part, like Android,
iOS, especially recently.
So things that are Emacs independent are
[Speaker 1]: Okay, yeah. I have no doubt that there is a
[Speaker 2]: demanded. Especially in the environment,
like every time.
[Speaker 1]: demand. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get into that
very much. I have some of my students have 0
affinity with computers.
They really don't know their way around their
computers at all. And so for them,
It is quite important to learn how to find
your way around Emacs because it's like a
little operating system,
but it's not. It's an operating system
without much of the obscurity.
And the alternative to that would be to
simply let them work only on the command
line, which is another possibility.
But, you know, there of course you are
limited with regard to if you want to swap
languages. So for example,
quite often I find myself in the situation I
teach data science in R and Python and in
Emacs org mode I can demonstrate both of
these side by side in the same file.
And that's a great advantage.
Not to overburden the students when they are
at the beginning with things that you don't
want them to necessarily learn about.
And plus the thing what I like as a graduate
student when I stepped onto Emacs was that it
was infinite possibilities to lose myself in
Emacs and you know go on and learn more stuff
about it. But it's such a long time ago that
I barely dare to mention it anymore.
[Speaker 2]: For command line, actually,
it's since the Jupyter notebooks and that
Google thing they are running.
It's getting so popular that it's clear that
command line is just losing in popularity in
[Speaker 1]: well, yes and no. I mean,
[Speaker 2]: this. Yeah, of course,
Not the usage. People are still using it,
obviously.
[Speaker 1]: I mean, in Google Colab,
only the paid version allows you to go to the
terminal and use the command line.
But of course, the traction,
and I think that's kind of interesting,
1 of the reasons why IPython or any of the
Jupyter notebooks are so cool is because you
can use a lot of shell commands from the
IPython shell. There's a whole bunch of magic
commands which are quite powerful.
The 1 that comes to mind is a time,
the time command, for example,
you know, it gives you a really nice,
performance, quick performance check.
There's a bunch of different,
I think probably close to a hundred magic
commands that you can use in Jupyter.
But I don't know JupyterLab too well,
but I noticed that the companies that do
online training, And they are usually the
ones that are closest to what beginners want,
especially in business.
And what those companies do is they take
JupiterLab and turn it into a presentation of
their own. Another 1 is Notable,
notable.io. That's another 1.
They took JupyterLab and turned it into
something commercial. It's boosted up a
little bit. And so the shell inside the
JupyterLab has some of the most more
important shell properties.
And so people still use the command line
without knowing that they use the command
line. But I also like doing,
how do I use org-roam?
Well, I use it, I do not have not used it
with the students yet,
only the best students have sort of seen me
use it and copied it. But I use it probably
in a very naive, trivial way.
I can't say that I am,
that I have a very sophisticated use.
I basically, I like the fact that,
I mean, it's built on the original concept of
the, with the German word,
Zettelkasten, right? Which is that you do not
have to think about a taxonomy because as you
move along, your taxonomy changes all the
time. You know, what you think is important
at the beginning, your root node,
as you go along, you realize,
oh, that's not the root node at all.
There's a higher level and a higher level and
some of the lower levels aren't at the lower
level, they're actually at the higher level.
So you're beginning to create hierarchies
that are out of date as soon as you create
the hierarchy. So what is the idea of the
tittle custom is that anything that comes to
your mind you can throw in the custom the box
it literally means Box of notes and That's
what I appreciate about it.
So I create a I create a note pretty much for
anything I do, but I've only used it for
about a year and a half or so,
or grown, maybe a year.
So I can see that I'm coming up against the
Zettelkasten or note box problems,
which is that I've got so many notes now that
unless I have clever aliases,
there is a chance that I might forget that I
[Speaker 2]: That's why you need meta-notes.
[Speaker 1]: have a note. So I need a- Yes,
[Speaker 2]: In other words, a summarization is important,
no matter what system you use.
[Speaker 1]: yes. But what I'm trying to say is that's a
different approach than hierarchies,
right? It's the same, it's the same,
it's the same principle as a relational
database versus a hierarchical database.
Same thing. So, yeah, I've not used that.
I've not really used, actually I have cut
meta notes, of course I do.
So notes that point to other notes.
Yes, of course. I use those.
I have forgotten that.
I have not taught that part to the students
because I do project work with the students,
but there's only so much time.
I'm already, I mean, already,
I don't think there's any class that where I
am able to use more than 30% of my material.
And the reason is that when the students come
to class, which is I pointed out in the
video, they know so little.
And most of the students,
at least in liberal arts,
spend just too little time outside of class,
getting there, you know,
drilling down into the,
into the, into the infrastructure,
into the work. Only, only the best students
do that. The ones that really catch fire.
[Speaker 2]: Don't you have something like a course
project at the end?
[Speaker 1]: Yes, I have course, not at the end.
I use Scrum. Maybe I shouldn't,
but I've used Scrum for many years.
So I have course projects that start at the
beginning and they do sprint reviews every 3
or 4 weeks. So term end projects I find
completely useless because the students do
the work at the very end of the term.
[Speaker 2]: By term end I mean they don't start at the
end, they just report at the end.
[Speaker 1]: I use the IMRAD, I use the IMRAD method.
So I use IMRAD, basically IMRAD plus,
plus Scrum, right? So,
So the first sprint review is introductory,
the research proposal,
the second 1 is about methodology,
the third 1 about results,
and the last 1 is their final presentation.
And so that's the way I manage the projects,
but that's about as much as I can do with
them. It's a good idea.
I hadn't even thought about using Org-ROM
with them, but to teach them that might be a
good idea, actually.
[Speaker 2]: Well, for Org-ROM, actually,
what I found useful during my graduate is for
literature review. Yes.
The other part of our program that is not
about your like, noting down your thoughts,
is about writing about literature notes.
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's a good idea,
actually. And of course,
I mean, there's more stuff that they should
learn, you know, like another 1,
since you mentioned literature,
you know, latex and Bibtech is another
obvious extension of that.
But that is actually a good idea because the
literature is what they have the hardest time
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, like when you need to read like 50
papers.
[Speaker 1]: with. Last term, since you mentioned that,
I had a really nice experience because 1 of
our librarians, our digital librarian,
came along and talked to the students,
and he taught me about a tool called
litmap.com, which is basically,
I don't know how it's implemented,
but it's basically a graph,
a graph representation of papers organized by
citation. It's very, very cool.
And the students who used to only find,
I don't know, 1 paper and otherwise,
of course, 15 YouTube videos and 100 blogs,
suddenly started finding and reading
scientific papers. It was only because of
this presentation. So you should take the,
I think, I hope that is the right,
that's the right mode,
litmaps. Okay, it's not litmap,
it's called Litmaps. I'm gonna give you an
example. I don't know if I can share this,
if you can look at that.
But basically you create a,
1 can use 1 of your papers as a seed,
and then it will create a graph,
graph representation of it for you.
And this is a powerful tool in itself.
But what I'm saying is that the students
suddenly, their use of literature and that
citation goes to the roof.
And I've been waiting for that for probably
15 years since I've started teaching.
So it's crazy. That's really cool.
[Speaker 2]: So here is the same tool,
it's called connected papers.
It's based on the open source citation data.
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I know that as well,
I think.
[Speaker 2]: It's actually very useful when you just start
learning the topic, it's like you find 1
paper, then you look into the connections,
you can quickly narrow down to the most
cited, the core papers on the topic.
[Speaker 1]: Of course, and that is exactly their
situation, you know, and they're always at
the beginning. As you go on,
you develop different ways,
but for these complete beginners,
that's a good idea. Thank you so much for
[Speaker 0]: anything else?
[Speaker 1]: that. Okay, guys, I've enjoyed the
conversation, so you should definitely,
I'm going to take some of these things away.
Thank you so much for that.
Have you done, Yanta, have you done org mode
documentations yourself on WOC?
Or do you have a sort of a favorite 1?
I mean, I often on walk,
I often use the documentation for code
blocks. I used to when I started doing that
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, because it's only on work.
It's not part of the manual.
[Speaker 1]: for the first time. Yeah,
yeah. And so I've used that a lot.
[Speaker 2]: Have I done? Not really,
mostly fixing the errors.
Okay. Yeah, I think that's a really good
idea.
[Speaker 1]: All right. Well, thank you very much.
And it's great to be at this conference.
I think I'm going to get on.
[Speaker 2]: Thanks for answering all the questions.
And for the talk, It was quite interesting to
see our modules in actual teaching.
[Speaker 1]: Yes, thank you. And I got to thank Daniel
German from Canada, the 1 of,
I had him on 1 of the slides because he,
he inspired me to do that.
And, and I wouldn't be at the conference if I
hadn't contacted him and said oh here's my
paper and he said oh you should come to the
conference and so that's why I came to the
conference. Thank you very much and as they
say keep in touch. You're welcome.
Okay bye-bye. You're welcome.
Okay, bye-bye. Take a copy of the chat before
you go, if you can. Happy weekend to just bye
bye.
[Speaker 2]: You are currently the only person in this
conference.