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WEBVTT

00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:04.160
okay so the first question is what is an

00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:05.680
example of a car

00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:08.800
a package currently in

00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:12.160
a non-elpa repo that does not work well

00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:13.759
with Emacs

00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:18.000
well one of them is s dot el

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:19.760
and this is what made me aware that

00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:21.920
there was an issue here that caused

00:00:21.920 --> 00:00:25.760
problems well s.e.l

00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:29.439
is a beautifully written package

00:00:29.439 --> 00:00:31.279
that appears to be very useful for

00:00:31.279 --> 00:00:32.800
people

00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:36.320
and there's just one thing wrong with it

00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:39.520
it gobbled up the name space

00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:43.680
of symbols starting with s dash

00:00:43.680 --> 00:00:47.039
and I was shocked to discover that

00:00:47.039 --> 00:00:49.440
somebody who had not coordinated with

00:00:49.440 --> 00:00:51.760
the Emacs developers at all

00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.360
had implemented a package using such a

00:00:55.360 --> 00:00:56.800
short prefix which

00:00:56.800 --> 00:00:59.760
isn't the right way to do things oh by

00:00:59.760 --> 00:01:01.520
the way the questions have moved off the

00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.000
screen this is no good I can continue

00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:05.360
answering this one

00:01:05.360 --> 00:01:08.880
but I'll be stuck when this one is over

00:01:08.880 --> 00:01:12.159
anyway so uh

00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.040
and I was told that there was nothing I

00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:16.560
could do about it

00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:19.920
that so many users packages were using

00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:22.960
swl and thus essentially using that

00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:24.240
definition

00:01:24.240 --> 00:01:28.080
of the s dash star symbols

00:01:28.080 --> 00:01:31.360
that any attempt to use them

00:01:31.360 --> 00:01:34.720
publicly or privately for anything else

00:01:34.720 --> 00:01:38.079
would lead to horrible problems

00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:41.680
and I don't like that

00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:45.520
I decided I wanted to do something

00:01:45.520 --> 00:01:49.040
a so that that wouldn't happen again

00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:52.320
and b to make it unhappen

00:01:52.320 --> 00:01:55.119
in that case well the way to make it

00:01:55.119 --> 00:01:57.840
unhappen in that case is with a new

00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:02.240
symbol renaming feature the idea is

00:02:02.240 --> 00:02:05.360
you rename that file to something else

00:02:05.360 --> 00:02:09.119
and then you define an s.e.l that

00:02:09.119 --> 00:02:11.520
sets up symbol renaming and then loads

00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:13.040
the something else

00:02:13.040 --> 00:02:16.080
so it actually runs the same code it

00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:16.400
just

00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:20.879
doesn't globally define the symbols

00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:23.920
s dash whatever but they

00:02:23.920 --> 00:02:26.160
appear to work for the programs that

00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:28.319
explicitly

00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:32.640
require that require sdl

00:02:32.640 --> 00:02:36.000
or the s package so this gets the same

00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:38.080
behavior for all the programs that are

00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:40.239
using that library

00:02:40.239 --> 00:02:43.360
and uh doesn't interfere

00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.840
with the global name space at all

00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.319
however to do that we need to have a

00:02:50.319 --> 00:02:52.080
package

00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:55.360
s.e.l that isn't the same

00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.760
totally a short file that's totally

00:02:57.760 --> 00:02:58.640
different

00:02:58.640 --> 00:03:01.440
plus we've got to have the file that

00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:02.840
normally is called

00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.239
s.e.l available but

00:03:06.239 --> 00:03:10.319
uh under another name well

00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:13.040
how are we going to do that we can't put

00:03:13.040 --> 00:03:14.800
this into

00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.879
into Emacs in a nice way that

00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:21.920
won't make the uh won't make the

00:03:21.920 --> 00:03:24.560
maintainer angry

00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:26.480
of the mate to the developer of that

00:03:26.480 --> 00:03:28.159
package

00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:32.080
but we can do it with non-gnu

00:03:32.080 --> 00:03:34.640
elpa we can put those two things into

00:03:34.640 --> 00:03:36.239
non-gnu elpa

00:03:36.239 --> 00:03:38.720
without any difficulty and this shows

00:03:38.720 --> 00:03:40.720
one of the advantages

00:03:40.720 --> 00:03:43.280
we can put files we can put packages

00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:45.440
into non-gdu elpa

00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:48.400
and make changes in them now in general

00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:49.599
we wouldn't

00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:51.760
go to the effort of making big changes

00:03:51.760 --> 00:03:54.319
that's just too much to do

00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:56.400
unless something's really important but

00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:58.000
small changes

00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.120
that help things fit in are

00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:04.319
easy to do and

00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:07.120
uh okay oh so basically the recording

00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.319
didn't get anything until now I just saw

00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:13.439
a note pop up this session is now being

00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:14.319
recorded

00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:16.320
I hope it's been recorded all along it

00:04:16.320 --> 00:04:18.160
would be a shame to

00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:21.280
spoil oh good okay

00:04:21.280 --> 00:04:27.120
okay good so uh that's one of the issues

00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:30.479
uh does non-gnu eopa already exist

00:04:30.479 --> 00:04:33.840
or is this a sort of quote plan I don't

00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:35.360
know why you have to

00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:37.919
put scare quotes around the word plan

00:04:37.919 --> 00:04:40.400
it's sort of in between

00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:44.160
it's the creation of it is started you

00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:45.440
will find

00:04:45.440 --> 00:04:48.160
that there is an archive that it's

00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:51.520
possible to download packages from

00:04:51.520 --> 00:04:54.880
and there is a repository to put them in

00:04:54.880 --> 00:04:57.120
but that's not the way it's really

00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:58.560
supposed to work

00:04:58.560 --> 00:05:02.800
uh this is not supposed to be like the

00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:04.320
new elpa where there's

00:05:04.320 --> 00:05:07.280
one repo for all the packages and thus

00:05:07.280 --> 00:05:09.039
anyone who wants to edit any of them

00:05:09.039 --> 00:05:11.199
anyone that we want to have edit any of

00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:11.680
them

00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:13.280
has got to have access to the whole

00:05:13.280 --> 00:05:15.440
thing for one thing

00:05:15.440 --> 00:05:18.560
some packages will make

00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:21.840
an arrangement with the developers

00:05:21.840 --> 00:05:25.120
and they'll assure us that they will

00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:27.039
do things as things should be done and

00:05:27.039 --> 00:05:28.400
then we'll

00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:32.080
have their repo copied automatically

00:05:32.080 --> 00:05:35.919
or in other cases say

00:05:35.919 --> 00:05:38.160
copied manually with a little checking

00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:40.160
every so often

00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:43.199
uh and then uh in

00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:46.400
other cases we'll need to have our own

00:05:46.400 --> 00:05:49.440
repo for a particular package

00:05:49.440 --> 00:05:52.479
but we shouldn't have a single repo for

00:05:52.479 --> 00:05:54.400
all the packages we should have a repo

00:05:54.400 --> 00:05:55.919
for each package

00:05:55.919 --> 00:05:57.840
so that the people working on that can

00:05:57.840 --> 00:06:01.120
get access to modify it

00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:04.319
this has to be finished setting up

00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:06.080
and we're still working out the

00:06:06.080 --> 00:06:07.680
procedures

00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:11.039
for instance for making the arrangements

00:06:11.039 --> 00:06:14.400
with the developers of a package so that

00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:15.440
we can

00:06:15.440 --> 00:06:18.840
we hope uh entrust its development to

00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:20.400
them and

00:06:20.400 --> 00:06:24.800
rely on them directly

00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:26.560
and there may be more that needs to be

00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.840
worked on

00:06:29.840 --> 00:06:36.639
oh there's so many questions

00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:39.280
well I hope you the third question is

00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:40.880
what are the benefits

00:06:40.880 --> 00:06:43.680
I hope that people now see the benefits

00:06:43.680 --> 00:06:46.240
I've described them

00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:49.599
uh next question is it possible to work

00:06:49.599 --> 00:06:51.440
with the melba team

00:06:51.440 --> 00:06:54.720
to integrate that into Emacs

00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.440
no because the goal doesn't make sense

00:06:59.440 --> 00:07:03.759
melba the way it's done does not belong

00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.199
inside Emacs in any sense well first of

00:07:07.199 --> 00:07:08.560
all it can't literally be

00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.280
inside Emacs we don't have copyright

00:07:11.280 --> 00:07:13.280
assignments for that code

00:07:13.280 --> 00:07:18.160
and to get it would be unfeasible

00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:20.560
but we're not asking for copyright

00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:21.520
assignments for

00:07:21.520 --> 00:07:25.280
non-gnu elpa so that's

00:07:25.280 --> 00:07:27.599
you might wonder could melpa be merged

00:07:27.599 --> 00:07:31.440
with non-venue elpa the problem is

00:07:31.440 --> 00:07:35.039
melpa doesn't modify the packages

00:07:35.039 --> 00:07:38.240
it's just a place to find releases of

00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:41.360
packages wherever they happen to be

00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.800
and they put packages in with

00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:48.319
only a little bit of checking

00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.520
so no we there are a lot of packages

00:07:51.520 --> 00:07:51.919
that are

00:07:51.919 --> 00:07:55.280
in melpa that we'd like to get into

00:07:55.280 --> 00:07:58.479
non-canoe elpa I don't know the names of

00:07:58.479 --> 00:08:00.800
most of them but I expect most of them

00:08:00.800 --> 00:08:04.160
would be fine to have but they've got to

00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:08.560
be looked at one by one

00:08:08.560 --> 00:08:12.000
there are some rules for non-glpa

00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.479
and the only way to check them is to

00:08:14.479 --> 00:08:18.000
check them on one package at a time

00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:22.160
and that's going to take effort

00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.039
now with the people who work on melba

00:08:25.039 --> 00:08:26.080
want to get involved

00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:29.440
of this that would be great

00:08:29.440 --> 00:08:32.800
I haven't tried asking them first we've

00:08:32.800 --> 00:08:33.919
got to get this thing

00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.599
set up I doubt they would want to

00:08:37.599 --> 00:08:40.479
but if they said yes that would be

00:08:40.479 --> 00:08:44.159
wonderful

00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:48.399
uh any thoughts of packages being

00:08:48.399 --> 00:09:00.959
added I'm afraid

00:09:00.959 --> 00:09:05.440
um

00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:07.200
I'm afraid any thoughts of packages

00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:08.959
being added as

00:09:08.959 --> 00:09:11.040
some url I don't know anything about but

00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:13.120
it talks about open source

00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:16.800
which means I'm very unlikely to have

00:09:16.800 --> 00:09:17.680
much

00:09:17.680 --> 00:09:20.959
in common with whatever they say about

00:09:20.959 --> 00:09:24.080
either licensing or

00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:27.760
what's right and wrong uh

00:09:27.760 --> 00:09:29.959
but this seems to be something about

00:09:29.959 --> 00:09:31.920
disregarding licenses

00:09:31.920 --> 00:09:35.680
altogether well that is basically

00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:39.360
asking to lose there are reasons

00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.360
why we developed gnu licenses to release

00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:45.600
software why we have criteria

00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:48.320
for which licenses make a program free

00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:49.519
software

00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.640
if the program doesn't carry a license

00:09:52.640 --> 00:09:55.519
or if it carries a non-free license that

00:09:55.519 --> 00:09:56.080
program

00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.760
is not free software now you can

00:09:59.760 --> 00:10:02.839
maybe get away with disregarding that

00:10:02.839 --> 00:10:04.800
fact uh unless

00:10:04.800 --> 00:10:07.600
somebody an author or publisher stops

00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:08.959
you

00:10:08.959 --> 00:10:11.360
but we're not going to take we're not

00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:12.399
basically going to

00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:15.200
disregard the question of whether the

00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:16.399
software we

00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:19.040
recommend to people really is free

00:10:19.040 --> 00:10:21.360
software or not

00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:24.560
that's basically uh

00:10:24.560 --> 00:10:27.519
blindfolding yourself to the legal

00:10:27.519 --> 00:10:29.120
situation of the software you're

00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:30.480
distributing

00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:33.519
it's a terrible idea uh if they

00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.920
disregard our licenses they will hear

00:10:35.920 --> 00:10:38.640
from us about it

00:10:38.640 --> 00:10:40.959
and if you want to contribute to the

00:10:40.959 --> 00:10:42.720
free world

00:10:42.720 --> 00:10:46.320
put free licenses on your code

00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.640
and choose good ones to get this

00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:50.000
information

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.440
look at gnu.org slash licensing

00:10:53.440 --> 00:10:57.120
in particular slash licenses

00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:59.839
and one page that input that's important

00:10:59.839 --> 00:11:01.120
is license

00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:05.040
dash recommendations.html

00:11:05.040 --> 00:11:07.360
that's where we advise you on what

00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.279
license we would recommend you use

00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:11.360
depending on the circumstances

00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:15.600
there's also license dash list dot html

00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:20.160
which describes a lot of licenses and

00:11:20.160 --> 00:11:22.160
says which ones are free

00:11:22.160 --> 00:11:25.040
which ones are compatible with the new

00:11:25.040 --> 00:11:26.160
gpl

00:11:26.160 --> 00:11:28.640
it's really important to use only gpl

00:11:28.640 --> 00:11:31.519
compatible licenses

00:11:31.519 --> 00:11:34.320
so that the various programs can be

00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:35.519
combined together

00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:40.720
or linked and

00:11:40.720 --> 00:11:43.120
you can also get other information about

00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:44.240
gnu licenses

00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.040
and the reasons why they are written the

00:11:47.040 --> 00:11:55.279
way they are

00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:03.200
oh sorry I don't see the next question

00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.600
oh why do I insist on using per and

00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:07.519
purrs

00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:11.680
uh I'm not happy with using

00:12:11.680 --> 00:12:14.959
they which is a plural pronoun with a

00:12:14.959 --> 00:12:17.440
singular antecedent

00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.480
it's bad because it causes

00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.800
confusion that is completely gratuitous

00:12:24.800 --> 00:12:28.639
many sentences become a lot of work

00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:33.200
to parse and understand if you

00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:36.480
add that ambiguity that source of him of

00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:39.839
regular ambiguity now

00:12:39.839 --> 00:12:42.720
I do not accept the demands of other

00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:43.680
people

00:12:43.680 --> 00:12:47.519
in regard to changing my grammar

00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.800
you can try to convince me but

00:12:50.800 --> 00:12:54.240
no one is entitled to give me orders

00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:55.440
about that

00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:58.880
or state their desires and expect

00:12:58.880 --> 00:13:03.200
obedience not for me and not from you

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:06.560
or anyone we are all

00:13:06.560 --> 00:13:09.839
equally entitled to decide

00:13:09.839 --> 00:13:13.200
how we will speak and how we won't speak

00:13:13.200 --> 00:13:18.000
now I've spelled out all of these points

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.880
in a file called stolman.org

00:13:22.880 --> 00:13:30.120
articles slash

00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:31.600
genderneutrality.html

00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:33.760
of course this is not a gnu project

00:13:33.760 --> 00:13:36.000
policy

00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:46.839
it's my own personal ideas on the

00:13:46.839 --> 00:13:53.920
subject

00:13:53.920 --> 00:13:57.120
if any of you feels offended

00:13:57.120 --> 00:14:01.040
by my referring to you with a singular

00:14:01.040 --> 00:14:04.320
gender neutral pronoun feel free

00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:07.680
to ex contact me privately

00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:10.720
and explain to me your reasons

00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:14.000
I will pay attention to them I'll

00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.639
think about them assuming that they're

00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.399
not something I've already

00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:24.079
considered and decided to dismiss before

00:14:24.079 --> 00:14:27.760
but you must not speak to me as if I had

00:14:27.760 --> 00:14:30.240
no business not obeying you because

00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:30.800
that's

00:14:30.800 --> 00:14:34.320
rude and it is not likely to convince me

00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:40.720
to change my mind

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.240
I believe it is not actually

00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.320
of stating offense to anyone

00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:50.560
and the fact that somebody disagrees

00:14:50.560 --> 00:14:52.880
with me does not mean I'm wrong

00:14:52.880 --> 00:15:00.720
but I always can be wrong

00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.560
when you wrote that you could add a

00:15:02.560 --> 00:15:05.680
package to non your new elpa

00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:07.120
are you implying that you would add

00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:09.199
packages with or without package

00:15:09.199 --> 00:15:11.120
maintainers knowledge

00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.279
of course the packages we would

00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.000
we would distribute in this way are free

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:19.519
software

00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:21.920
everyone is entitled to redistribute

00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:22.720
them

00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.560
and everyone is also entitled to modify

00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:26.959
them

00:15:26.959 --> 00:15:29.199
and redistribute them that's part of the

00:15:29.199 --> 00:15:31.680
meaning of free software

00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:35.040
I have been unable to understand

00:15:35.040 --> 00:15:38.320
how there came to be an idea

00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:42.560
that those who redistribute packages

00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:45.600
have some idea to be mere

00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:49.360
some obligation to be near mirrors

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:54.480
and not modify things themselves

00:15:54.480 --> 00:15:58.560
well if a package is

00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:01.440
being maintained by developers who are

00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.440
cooperating with us

00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.240
we'll normally just leave it to them

00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:07.360
after all

00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:10.079
we have lots of other work to do they

00:16:10.079 --> 00:16:10.399
are

00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.000
clearly experts on the packages they've

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:15.600
developed

00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.399
let's leave it to them if they make that

00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:22.800
sort of arrangement with us but

00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:26.480
that's up to them we can't insist that

00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.120
anyone make an arrangement with us

00:16:29.120 --> 00:16:30.720
but since those programs are free

00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.279
software anyone c is

00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:36.639
free to redistribute them and we will do

00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:41.839
that

00:16:41.839 --> 00:16:45.519
have you ever used vi or vim or

00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:52.079
evil mode no

00:16:52.079 --> 00:16:53.920
are there any plans to implement

00:16:53.920 --> 00:16:56.800
security considerations in non-gnu

00:16:56.800 --> 00:17:00.720
elpa uh we probably

00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:02.959
should and this will have to be

00:17:02.959 --> 00:17:04.959
implemented

00:17:04.959 --> 00:17:08.559
but at the moment

00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.000
developer Emacs maintainers will copy

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:13.280
packages

00:17:13.280 --> 00:17:18.160
into it and so as long as they are

00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:20.160
verifying the packages and getting the

00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:22.480
packages from the right place

00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:25.199
that will take care of the security once

00:17:25.199 --> 00:17:25.919
there is

00:17:25.919 --> 00:17:30.160
when with automatic copying in

00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:33.200
will have to do something to

00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:35.200
make sure that we're fetching the

00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:40.320
packages securely

00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:43.360
and uh some of you might be interested

00:17:43.360 --> 00:17:44.000
in

00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.080
helping to design and implement this

00:17:46.080 --> 00:17:48.000
system

00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:52.559
uh what distro do I use

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.720
uh well which distro of gnu slash linux

00:17:56.720 --> 00:17:58.000
do I use

00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:03.520
I use tree scale

00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:07.200
I haven't tried most of the free distros

00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:10.080
and the reason is it's not crucial that

00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:11.120
I do so

00:18:11.120 --> 00:18:13.520
we don't need me to rate the various

00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:14.799
free distros on

00:18:14.799 --> 00:18:17.520
practical questions because anyone can

00:18:17.520 --> 00:18:20.000
do that as well as I can

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.400
and so you can tell people what

00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:27.760
you think of using them for me what's

00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:29.360
important to me

00:18:29.360 --> 00:18:32.400
is to inform people of the difference

00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:34.160
between the free distros

00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:36.799
and the non-free distros making sure

00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:38.799
people are aware that if you

00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:42.000
install a non-free gnu slash linux

00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.600
distro you'll get a free operating

00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:46.720
system with

00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.919
non-free stuff in various quantities

00:18:49.919 --> 00:18:54.160
added thus you will not reach freedom

00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:56.240
although you you'll make a lot of

00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:57.520
progress compared

00:18:57.520 --> 00:19:01.039
with using for instance windows or

00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:03.919
mac os or whatever vicious thing it

00:19:03.919 --> 00:19:06.160
might be

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.559
I'd like to I'd like to people to be

00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:09.760
aware

00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:12.799
of this next step towards

00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:14.720
getting freedom for yourself and your

00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.160
own computing

00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:24.480
so that you can do that if you want to

00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:29.039
uh

00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.360
so who gets to make the final decision

00:19:31.360 --> 00:19:32.799
regarding

00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:36.640
non-gnu elpa the

00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:39.200
emax maintainers are going to be in

00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:40.960
charge of this

00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.480
but because it's not

00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.760
just a technical decision it has with

00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:51.360
only technical consequences

00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:54.960
but in general unless there's some

00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:57.760
severe problem with the package we will

00:19:57.760 --> 00:20:03.600
want to put it in

00:20:03.600 --> 00:20:06.400
and I expect most packages won't have a

00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:07.440
problem

00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:09.919
and we can just put them in when we get

00:20:09.919 --> 00:20:11.679
to them

00:20:11.679 --> 00:20:15.919
won't the elpa link to non-free sites

00:20:15.919 --> 00:20:17.600
like github

00:20:17.600 --> 00:20:20.799
uh it's a mistake to talk about a

00:20:20.799 --> 00:20:25.760
non-free site

00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:29.120
because a site is not a program

00:20:29.120 --> 00:20:32.159
a program is either free or non-free and

00:20:32.159 --> 00:20:32.960
we have

00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.480
clearly stated criteria for that in

00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:39.679
gnu.org philosophy slash

00:20:39.679 --> 00:20:43.039
free dash sw.html we have the free

00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.360
software definition

00:20:45.360 --> 00:20:51.919
but a site well their programs on it

00:20:51.919 --> 00:20:54.000
but it doesn't make sense to ask whether

00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.120
the site is

00:20:55.120 --> 00:20:58.000
free or not it's too simplistic a

00:20:58.000 --> 00:20:58.880
question

00:20:58.880 --> 00:21:02.000
to have a meaningful answer now one

00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.679
thing you can ask about is does the site

00:21:05.679 --> 00:21:08.799
send javascript to the user's machine

00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.760
to the user's browser and if so is that

00:21:11.760 --> 00:21:12.960
javascript

00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:17.120
non-free well github

00:21:17.120 --> 00:21:19.919
does send non-free javascript for some

00:21:19.919 --> 00:21:21.200
operations

00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.240
so we consider it unsatisfactory as a

00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.159
repository

00:21:26.159 --> 00:21:29.600
but uh that doesn't mean linking to it

00:21:29.600 --> 00:21:33.360
for is a bad thing to do regardless of

00:21:33.360 --> 00:21:34.720
what the purpose is

00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.640
for instance if the purpose is to refer

00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.240
to some things

00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.799
that you can access without running the

00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:42.880
non-free javascript

00:21:42.880 --> 00:21:47.200
then it's okay for that purpose

00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.480
so if now that you understand the

00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:52.559
details of this issue

00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:54.880
you think that there is a problem with

00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:55.919
the

00:21:55.919 --> 00:22:00.080
link to camel there's

00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:03.679
sorry a link in camel dot html

00:22:03.679 --> 00:22:06.799
well report it to

00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:10.880
uh bug gnu emax reported as an Emacs bug

00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:14.159
but do think about the criteria I've

00:22:14.159 --> 00:22:15.840
just said because maybe it's not a

00:22:15.840 --> 00:22:18.000
problem

00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:21.840
is it okay to use the gnu of pharaoh gpl

00:22:21.840 --> 00:22:24.559
for emax packages

00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:28.880
yes it is

00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:31.120
uh which is your favorite programming

00:22:31.120 --> 00:22:32.080
language

00:22:32.080 --> 00:22:35.200
if lisp which variant

00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.400
well I don't exactly have a

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.760
favorite variant but

00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:45.120
when I designed Emacs lisp I

00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:47.520
did the best thing I could think of at

00:22:47.520 --> 00:22:48.799
the time

00:22:48.799 --> 00:22:52.559
subject to the need to keep it small

00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:55.520
for the first few years it was important

00:22:55.520 --> 00:22:56.960
for gdu Emacs

00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:59.840
to run in a machine which could only

00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:00.799
give it half

00:23:00.799 --> 00:23:04.480
a meg of user space

00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:06.559
so there are a lot of constructs that

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.200
clearly were desirable to include

00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:12.320
that I left out because we could

00:23:12.320 --> 00:23:16.880
make it work without them

00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.960
and then a lot of those have been added

00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.640
since because

00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:23.200
it's been a long time since we needed to

00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:40.960
keep Emacs so rigorously small

00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.240
um someone is

00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:47.679
asking about the

00:23:47.679 --> 00:23:51.360
fsf's repository project well

00:23:51.360 --> 00:23:54.400
we agreed that there would be another

00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:55.440
virtual machine

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:59.919
running one of those for the gnu project

00:23:59.919 --> 00:24:15.840
but that's as far as the discussion went

00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:20.480
question 17 is extremely insulting

00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:25.600
I have not engaged in sexual harassment

00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:28.720
don't expect me to plead guilty to such

00:24:28.720 --> 00:24:28.960
a

00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:32.640
nasty claim

00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:35.600
people have been accusing me of many

00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:36.799
things

00:24:36.799 --> 00:24:39.919
some of which are

00:24:39.919 --> 00:24:43.120
basically mole hills and some of which

00:24:43.120 --> 00:24:46.559
are false so

00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.640
uh I'm not going to give them

00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.840
anything I have been bullied in a

00:24:53.840 --> 00:24:56.400
horrible way

00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:59.679
that was wrong

00:24:59.679 --> 00:25:02.720
I would like the bullies to apologize to

00:25:02.720 --> 00:25:03.520
me

00:25:03.520 --> 00:25:06.320
and when I see that they're not bullying

00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:08.960
I will forgive them

00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.279
I would like to have conversations with

00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:14.799
them if any of the mole hills

00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:17.840
annoyed someone I'm happy to talk

00:25:17.840 --> 00:25:20.880
with her and thus

00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:31.120
uh help help resolve things with peace

00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:35.120
and my opinion on

00:25:35.120 --> 00:25:39.200
quote diversity within

00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:42.720
Emacs well Emacs is

00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.679
never going to be diverse it is extended

00:25:45.679 --> 00:25:46.480
in

00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:49.760
one language Emacs lisp

00:25:49.760 --> 00:25:53.279
well I don't know uh we did have an idea

00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:55.840
of implementing extensibility using

00:25:55.840 --> 00:25:58.400
scheme and the hope was that guile

00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:01.120
could be integrated with Emacs that

00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:02.960
turned out to be difficult it may be

00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.279
impossible but in principle

00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:07.520
it might be a good thing that would be a

00:26:07.520 --> 00:26:11.039
small amount of diversity

00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:14.960
but it's not that important

00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:16.960
what I think is really important for

00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:18.880
developing Emacs

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.799
is to make it do word processing

00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:27.039
I sometimes use libra office

00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:30.080
and yeah I can make it do things

00:26:30.080 --> 00:26:32.799
it has features for wysiwyg which are

00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:34.880
very nice

00:26:34.880 --> 00:26:38.000
but it's in other regards

00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:40.400
it's not Emacs and it doesn't have the

00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.400
abilities of Emacs

00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:45.600
and it should

00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:48.400
so I urge people to work on extending

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:49.039
Emacs

00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:51.600
in that direction adding the features

00:26:51.600 --> 00:27:13.600
that a word processor has to have

00:27:13.600 --> 00:27:16.640
the last question I can answer is

00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:21.679
18 but yes it's a very sad thing

00:27:21.679 --> 00:27:24.960
how many companies

00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.399
insist on using non-free software

00:27:28.399 --> 00:27:33.200
well I would get a different kind of job

00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.799
that's a decision I made many years ago

00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.320
early in the gnu project

00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:42.799
I decided I would not first I would not

00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.679
get a job developing non-free software

00:27:47.679 --> 00:27:50.960
and later on I decided

00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.880
once I could stop using non-free

00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:57.120
software that is once we had

00:27:57.120 --> 00:28:00.799
a gnu slash linux system that we could

00:28:00.799 --> 00:28:08.320
switch over to and uh

00:28:08.320 --> 00:28:11.679
oh wait I thought I thought magic wand

00:28:11.679 --> 00:28:16.240
time meant it was time to stop

00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:21.039
but now I rather ask the question

00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:27.760
uh

00:28:27.760 --> 00:28:32.480
so what do you do well if I were you

00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:35.679
I'd probably not work for any of those

00:28:35.679 --> 00:28:37.440
companies

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:39.679
if I needed to make money I'd get a job

00:28:39.679 --> 00:28:40.799
but I get some

00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.840
other kind of job

00:28:43.840 --> 00:28:48.080
that didn't involve using software

00:28:48.080 --> 00:28:51.039
I would or that let me choose the

00:28:51.039 --> 00:28:53.600
software I would use

00:28:53.600 --> 00:28:56.880
but I would live cheaply you know the

00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.000
less you spend

00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.640
the less you need to make and the more

00:29:00.640 --> 00:29:01.120
time

00:29:01.120 --> 00:29:04.720
you can take away from your paid work

00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:07.200
and the more flexibility you have in

00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:08.640
which paid work

00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.039
you can do being in a position

00:29:13.039 --> 00:29:16.399
to say no to avoid being

00:29:16.399 --> 00:29:23.679
desperate to say yes

00:29:23.679 --> 00:29:27.440
uh strengthens your position

00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:31.200
and you need that one way you can help

00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.279
do that is by

00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:36.559
not having children now that is a

00:29:36.559 --> 00:29:38.960
tangent but it can't be denied that

00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:41.760
raising children is very expensive I

00:29:41.760 --> 00:29:42.399
have heard

00:29:42.399 --> 00:29:45.559
many people say that they are

00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.080
uncomfortable with their jobs

00:29:48.080 --> 00:29:50.880
but they have to do those jobs to make

00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.240
enough money

00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:55.440
to support their children

00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.120
well think about that be aware

00:29:59.120 --> 00:30:01.520
that's likely to happen to you before

00:30:01.520 --> 00:30:06.159
you make that decision

00:30:06.159 --> 00:30:10.000
what would I

00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.279
what would I change about free software

00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.960
well since this is

00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:20.880
magic I would magically find

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:25.600
a way of showing everyone why

00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:28.000
most free software needs to be copy

00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:29.679
lifted

00:30:29.679 --> 00:30:32.480
so that our community would not

00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:34.880
basically

00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:38.640
submit to abuse by proprietary software

00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:45.919
developers

00:30:45.919 --> 00:30:49.760
of course I could go further if I could

00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:53.279
magically recruit a hundred thousand

00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.760
good programmers to do lots of work

00:30:55.760 --> 00:30:57.919
improving free software

00:30:57.919 --> 00:31:01.039
we might well if we could do this 20

00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:03.279
years ago we might have wiped out

00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:06.559
non-free systems and then we wouldn't

00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:07.200
have had

00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.320
horrible things like

00:31:10.320 --> 00:31:14.480
world wide web drm that

00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:18.000
no one has the courage to resist

00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:20.480
if they're desperately trying to get

00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:22.640
money for anything

00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.240
and if they need approval of companies

00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:29.519
of the big companies that push for drm

00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.960
uh then they don't dare even resist as

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:38.240
much as they can resist

00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:40.880
and look what happened to the world wide

00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:43.200
web consortium

00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:47.279
uh they surrendered blatantly

00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:50.399
and ignominiously by

00:31:50.399 --> 00:31:55.760
endorsing the drm system

00:31:55.760 --> 00:31:59.600
so what can you do I don't have a magic

00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:00.880
wand

00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.720
I'm a human being with the capabilities

00:32:04.720 --> 00:32:06.559
I have

00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:09.919
but the advantage of

00:32:09.919 --> 00:32:12.840
great firmness in campaigning for free

00:32:12.840 --> 00:32:14.000
software

00:32:14.000 --> 00:32:18.240
and this enables me to do things

00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:27.679
that no one else will do

00:32:27.679 --> 00:32:30.480
what tools from pre unix days do you

00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:31.519
miss

00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:34.240
well I don't I don't think about them

00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:34.880
with

00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:38.640
missing them actually but

00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:42.080
it was sort of nice to have

00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:46.240
ddt as your login shell

00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.600
so in using modern terminology

00:32:49.600 --> 00:32:52.640
because that meant at any time you could

00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:55.519
stop a program lotus debugging symbols

00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:57.519
and start examining the data in the

00:32:57.519 --> 00:32:58.799
instructions

00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:01.519
you could debug it that way and then you

00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:03.039
could even

00:33:03.039 --> 00:33:06.720
patch in instructions to continue

00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.760
running that job with the bug fixed

00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:11.600
in fact you could even do this with the

00:33:11.600 --> 00:33:13.919
system kernel

00:33:13.919 --> 00:33:16.640
so that your jobs wouldn't get lost I

00:33:16.640 --> 00:33:17.840
did that

00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:20.559
quite a few times of course sometimes I

00:33:20.559 --> 00:33:22.720
saw what was wrong and I just had to

00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:25.919
fix a piece of data but sometimes

00:33:25.919 --> 00:33:28.240
it took me a long time to figure out how

00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:29.679
to get the system to

00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:32.480
keep on going but with the work I had

00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:34.240
done

00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:39.279
I didn't want to lose that work

00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:41.600
and so one of the first features I put

00:33:41.600 --> 00:33:43.039
into gdu Emacs was

00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.760
auto save

00:33:47.760 --> 00:33:50.640
uh I'm not going to try to figure out

00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:54.320
which packages I re I actually used

00:33:54.320 --> 00:33:56.480
uh if I knew I would get hit by a bus

00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:59.039
tomorrow

00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:02.320
uh say because of a fortune teller

00:34:02.320 --> 00:34:05.039
no a fortune teller doesn't give you any

00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:06.240
knowledge it's just

00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.159
superstitious uh hand waving

00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.760
so assuming that I

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:16.480
talked that I got a reading from a

00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.879
fortune teller which is

00:34:18.879 --> 00:34:23.119
implausible enough to begin with uh

00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:25.040
that wouldn't give me any knowledge

00:34:25.040 --> 00:34:28.320
about what was going to happen to me

00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:32.879
oh by the way fortune tellers generally

00:34:32.879 --> 00:34:34.960
play back to you facts that they've

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:36.879
discovered about you

00:34:36.879 --> 00:34:40.480
together with cold reading which means

00:34:40.480 --> 00:34:43.440
they say things calculated to make it

00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.639
appear that they know

00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:49.119
more than they do or things that are

00:34:49.119 --> 00:34:52.399
uh that sound wise to anyone

00:34:52.399 --> 00:34:55.679
so you can say the same thing to

00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:58.800
uh say 100 people

00:34:58.800 --> 00:35:02.000
and 80 or 90 of them will say boy that

00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:06.480
was really accurate

00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:10.400
but what if for some reason

00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:15.119
uh about

00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:17.440
what what advice would I give for

00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:18.560
stewardship of

00:35:18.560 --> 00:35:22.079
Emacs well basically

00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:25.359
focus on

00:35:25.359 --> 00:35:28.480
keeping the community strong in

00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:29.280
defending

00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.640
freedom if you have a choice between

00:35:32.640 --> 00:35:34.400
keeping the community strong in

00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:36.079
defending freedom

00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:38.800
and getting more people to participate

00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:40.720
in the development

00:35:40.720 --> 00:35:43.839
you've got to choose the freedom it is

00:35:43.839 --> 00:35:44.400
very

00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:48.400
easy for free software projects to

00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:52.320
subordinate freedom to other criteria

00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.359
and once that happens it's

00:35:55.359 --> 00:35:58.079
easy for those who don't care much about

00:35:58.079 --> 00:35:58.720
freedom

00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:00.800
such as sometimes companies that might

00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:02.640
offer you some money

00:36:02.640 --> 00:36:08.160
to purchase your soul

00:36:08.160 --> 00:36:10.560
not that there are really things that

00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:14.240
exist called souls it's a metaphor but

00:36:14.240 --> 00:36:16.560
it's an important metaphor for something

00:36:16.560 --> 00:36:18.800
important

00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:20.880
people in the community have to be

00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:24.320
thinking about freedom

00:36:24.320 --> 00:36:27.280
when they make decisions about what is

00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:31.839
wise to do

00:36:31.839 --> 00:36:36.480
the decision to devel to set up non-glpa

00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.839
has a drawback it was a compromise now a

00:36:39.839 --> 00:36:41.520
lot of people will

00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:44.560
tell you that I am uncompromising and

00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:46.240
say that that's a flaw

00:36:46.240 --> 00:36:48.720
well they're wrong I make little

00:36:48.720 --> 00:36:50.320
compromises

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:53.040
very often and occasionally I make a

00:36:53.040 --> 00:36:55.359
medium-sized compromise

00:36:55.359 --> 00:36:58.880
the compromise is in the past we wanted

00:36:58.880 --> 00:36:59.359
to get

00:36:59.359 --> 00:37:01.599
copyright assignments for the packages

00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:02.400
in gnu

00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:06.240
elpa so that we could move them into

00:37:06.240 --> 00:37:09.119
core Emacs and of course sometimes we

00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.200
move packages in the other direction

00:37:11.200 --> 00:37:14.480
that way we are where we distribute a

00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:16.160
given package

00:37:16.160 --> 00:37:18.160
is something we can decide purely

00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:20.880
technically

00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:25.200
and however make insisting on getting

00:37:25.200 --> 00:37:26.800
copyright assignments for all the

00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.640
packages in gnu elpa

00:37:28.640 --> 00:37:32.079
meant that we had to say sorry no

00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.119
we will not install that packages in

00:37:35.119 --> 00:37:38.560
packaging dewey lpa unless the

00:37:38.560 --> 00:37:41.520
authors sign copyright assignments and

00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:44.079
sometimes that's a lot of trouble

00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.520
well non-glpa

00:37:47.520 --> 00:37:50.160
won't require copyright assignments if

00:37:50.160 --> 00:37:51.520
there's a free package

00:37:51.520 --> 00:37:54.560
we can make whatever changes presumably

00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:57.200
small otherwise we would probably say

00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:00.560
we don't have time but and then

00:38:00.560 --> 00:38:04.560
put it in but it does have the drawback

00:38:04.560 --> 00:38:05.599
that

00:38:05.599 --> 00:38:07.680
we in general we won't be able to move

00:38:07.680 --> 00:38:09.119
those packages

00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.960
into core Emacs without

00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.960
getting the legal papers then that we

00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:20.160
didn't get before

00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:24.320
how do you see the future of gdu Emacs

00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:27.599
uh I don't see the future

00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:29.839
I used to say that my crystal ball is

00:38:29.839 --> 00:38:31.680
cloudy today

00:38:31.680 --> 00:38:35.680
unfortunately that has another

00:38:35.680 --> 00:38:39.040
meaning which is quite ironic uh we

00:38:39.040 --> 00:38:41.200
certainly don't want

00:38:41.200 --> 00:38:44.800
our lives to be

00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:48.480
somewhere in a cloud because

00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:51.119
that clouds your mind and then people

00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.599
start

00:38:51.599 --> 00:38:54.240
cheating you and taking advantage of you

00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:56.880
and it's horrible

00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.160
but uh I don't see the future I just

00:39:00.160 --> 00:39:02.720
can be sure from the past that there

00:39:02.720 --> 00:39:03.839
will be

00:39:03.839 --> 00:39:07.599
challenges where some of the people

00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:10.720
involved want to make a big compromise

00:39:10.720 --> 00:39:12.960
that isn't worth it

00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:16.880
and they some they may even get the

00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:18.079
impression that it's

00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:21.200
up to them well actually

00:39:21.200 --> 00:39:24.480
Emacs has appointed maintainers just as

00:39:24.480 --> 00:39:27.440
every gdu package does and they are the

00:39:27.440 --> 00:39:29.280
ones in charge of developing that

00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:30.480
package

00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.400
and this is for a good reason

00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.200
because the appointed maintainers take

00:39:38.200 --> 00:39:39.760
responsibility

00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:42.240
to carry out the gnu project policies

00:39:42.240 --> 00:39:44.079
and most important of all

00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:46.160
are the ones that make the whole system

00:39:46.160 --> 00:39:47.520
work together

00:39:47.520 --> 00:39:52.640
and the ethical standards

00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:59.920
to respect freedom and defend freedom

00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:02.240
is there any plan to move more packages

00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:04.960
from core Emacs into elpa

00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:08.480
uh I don't know uh

00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:11.440
whether there is a plan I suppose if

00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:12.720
there's a plan

00:40:12.720 --> 00:40:15.680
we probably would have done it if there

00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:16.960
had been a plan

00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.839
some have been moved I don't see this as

00:40:19.839 --> 00:40:20.319
a

00:40:20.319 --> 00:40:22.400
fundamentally important issue it's a

00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:24.160
matter of what's convenient for

00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:26.640
the users and their advantages and

00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:29.599
disadvantages to each choice

00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:32.800
what is your opinion on higher education

00:40:32.800 --> 00:40:35.760
uh requiring non-free software for

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:36.720
instance

00:40:36.720 --> 00:40:40.400
well I wouldn't I wouldn't

00:40:40.400 --> 00:40:43.440
matriculate in a school which did that

00:40:43.440 --> 00:40:50.960
unless I saw a way I could refuse

00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.960
now of course I do this

00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:57.760
because I can get away with it and

00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:00.240
therefore my doing it is extremely

00:41:00.240 --> 00:41:04.960
important to show somebody does resist

00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:08.400
I don't expect most people who support

00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:09.359
free school

00:41:09.359 --> 00:41:12.319
who advocate free software to go that

00:41:12.319 --> 00:41:13.599
far

00:41:13.599 --> 00:41:17.760
uh I published an article in the spring

00:41:17.760 --> 00:41:21.040
entitled saying no even once

00:41:21.040 --> 00:41:24.640
is helping saying no to non-free

00:41:24.640 --> 00:41:25.359
software

00:41:25.359 --> 00:41:29.040
even once because

00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:32.240
the more you do it the more you help but

00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:34.640
even doing it a little in a way that

00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:36.640
other people notice

00:41:36.640 --> 00:41:39.920
is starting to help so

00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:43.440
uh please don't think that your choices

00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:45.119
are either

00:41:45.119 --> 00:41:48.480
be as firm and stubborn as I am

00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.240
or just give up and let yourself drift

00:41:52.240 --> 00:41:56.240
helplessly as if you had no volition

00:41:56.240 --> 00:41:58.079
there are a lot of points in between

00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:00.720
there and you can surely

00:42:00.720 --> 00:42:04.079
manage to say no some of the time

00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:07.839
and show people an example of saying no

00:42:07.839 --> 00:42:11.040
some of the time for instance you could

00:42:11.040 --> 00:42:12.720
say to people

00:42:12.720 --> 00:42:15.520
you know I hate the fact that my school

00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:16.000
makes me

00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:20.400
use zoom uh so whenever

00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.240
I'm not being forced I'm not going to

00:42:22.240 --> 00:42:25.760
use it

00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:29.200
or I hate the fact that the only way I

00:42:29.200 --> 00:42:31.200
can talk to that group of people

00:42:31.200 --> 00:42:35.200
is resume but when

00:42:35.200 --> 00:42:38.400
but for anything else I will feel better

00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.079
about myself if I don't

00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:42.880
see lots of ways to say no some of the

00:42:42.880 --> 00:42:44.000
time

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.040
and yield some of the time

00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:50.960
and when you try saying no occasionally

00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:53.920
you may just develop the ability to say

00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:56.400
no more often

00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:58.800
now whether you would ever get to be as

00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:00.640
stubborn as I am

00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:04.480
I don't know but what I find is that

00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:08.480
I like the fact that I've never made

00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:12.480
this kind of compromise

00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:15.839
I feel I have a reputation to maintain

00:43:15.839 --> 00:43:19.319
nobody's forcing me but I get

00:43:19.319 --> 00:43:21.119
satisfaction

00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.319
out of maintaining out of being able to

00:43:24.319 --> 00:43:26.400
continue to say

00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:30.880
I will not

00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:34.480
you are now unmuted and that also

00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:40.480
can happen at various different levels

00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:43.520
so you can get that satisfaction

00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:46.640
of fully maintaining a refusal

00:43:46.640 --> 00:43:54.400
that applies only to certain areas

00:43:54.400 --> 00:43:57.040
citizens uh noon already let's maybe

00:43:57.040 --> 00:43:58.880
take one or two more questions and then

00:43:58.880 --> 00:43:59.599
break for

00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:03.200
the lunch break okay thank you

00:44:03.200 --> 00:44:06.000
how often do you personally use Emacs as

00:44:06.000 --> 00:44:07.440
the

00:44:07.440 --> 00:44:10.640
lowest question now uh

00:44:10.640 --> 00:44:16.640
well I use it most of the day

00:44:16.640 --> 00:44:18.880
I occasionally do use other things in

00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:20.160
fact I occasionally edit with

00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:21.599
libreoffice

00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:24.240
I occasionally use media players I

00:44:24.240 --> 00:44:25.280
occasionally

00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:29.040
uh

00:44:29.040 --> 00:44:32.480
I occasionally ssh to a machine and type

00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:34.000
some commands on it

00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:35.440
which occasionally includes running

00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:42.319
Emacs on it

00:44:42.319 --> 00:44:45.760
I read pdf files a lot

00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:47.520
would be nice if you could get those

00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:49.599
into Emacs so that I could read them

00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:52.240
with Emacs commands

00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:55.040
and I maybe even edit them with the max

00:44:55.040 --> 00:44:56.160
commands

00:44:56.160 --> 00:44:59.440
when they can be edited I use

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.960
uh journal sometimes

00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:10.079
to write on a pdf file

00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:12.160
are there any more interesting projects

00:45:12.160 --> 00:45:13.760
you have in mind over and above

00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:18.400
non-gnu elpa uh

00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.079
I can't think of one right now well

00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:25.520
there are things there are things that

00:45:25.520 --> 00:45:27.119
the gnu project needs

00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:30.560
doing there are packages that don't have

00:45:30.560 --> 00:45:32.319
maintainers or could use

00:45:32.319 --> 00:45:35.839
more maintainers uh

00:45:35.839 --> 00:45:38.880
talk with maintainers at canoe.org

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:42.000
and the assistant candusences will

00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.960
help you find a package where you can do

00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:48.400
good

00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:50.560
not for beginners though you got to get

00:45:50.560 --> 00:45:52.079
you got to learn

00:45:52.079 --> 00:45:55.599
uh a substantive substantial level of

00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.160
capacity to develop and debug programs

00:45:58.160 --> 00:45:59.440
before you can

00:45:59.440 --> 00:46:02.800
be a maintainer uh have I ever looked at

00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:04.480
maggot

00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:08.400
uh no I haven't

00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.920
but I believe

00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:14.880
work is being done to get it put into

00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:16.560
Emacs

00:46:16.560 --> 00:46:22.240
and at that point I'll give it a try

00:46:22.240 --> 00:46:25.200
I do not want to share my configuration

00:46:25.200 --> 00:46:25.760
files

00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:29.520
they're personal but

00:46:29.520 --> 00:46:33.599
how about if we end this now

00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:36.880
you are now unmuted sounds good to me

00:46:36.880 --> 00:46:38.880
thank you very much richard for joining

00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.520
in for live questions

00:46:41.520 --> 00:46:43.839
okay