path: root/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-zettelkasten--zettelkasten-for-regular-emacs-hackers--christian-tietze--answers.vtt

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Yes. All right. Take it away. Thank you, Christian. Thank you, too.

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If you could have the pad open at the same time,

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you can read the questions.

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Or I can start reading some to you while I'm here.

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Oh, no. I can read them.

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I was wondering whether I should maybe copy them into a new buffer.

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So they are also on screen. Increase the font size a bit.

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So I'm trying to do this on the fly.

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Maybe a bad idea. Let's see.

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Of course, you're going to capture it

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into your Zettelkasten then. Is that what's happening?

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Well, I can start you off.

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The first question is, I wonder what they use for the fancy animations.

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I was thinking about this because that's the first question

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and I was thinking about this

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while I copied this stuff over.

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What part is the fancy part?

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I can recommend books, like if anyone wants to have book recommendations

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for how to make presentations with PowerPoint-like software

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in a very simple way, we taught this at university.

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was it now, some 15 years ago,

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to students to make animation abuse

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where everything was flashy and typed in or something.

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Don't do this, but instead do a couple of very simple tasteful things

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like fading through colors like filmmakers do, right?

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Fading through black to make a scene cut

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or just fade between things, the fanciness.

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Presentation software stack, the fanciness.

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I didn't dial fanciness up,

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I just resorted to a very simple fade animations,

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like fading stuff in and wipe, I think, for text effects.

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That was it, more or less.

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And for the lines, maybe the lines are fancy.

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I was using Apple Keynote because I'm fastest with that,

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but I also usually, we taught this workshop with PowerPoint

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and I think the LibreOffice stack got much better with that

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as well in the recent years,

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but I haven't tried that in a long time

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to like fiddle around and find all the knobs to dial.

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Because the Apple presentation thingy has this nice feature

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where you draw an arrow with a tip,

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and then you have a special animation for line drawing,

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which is only available for line art.

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And then it draws the arrow that moves around like that.

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So yeah, presentation stack, Apple Keynote,

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probably not of interest for anyone here.

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I usually don't use plain text presentation stuff, right?

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So I tried this, I tried this with markdown presentations,

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slidey things, org presentation.

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It's always not enough control for the fiddly things

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that I'm interested in to make the experience great.

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So I wonder what are the fancy animations.

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And the stack, the stack is Apple Keynote, sorry.

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Okay, that's enough. Thank you for capturing.

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Are you not a fan? Okay. You saw this in the recording.

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Why on earth is autofill mode not enabled? I don't know.

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I thought it is the default, but apparently it isn't.

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I could also use visual line mode.

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It's built in as well, right? Visual line mode.

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It's so weird to be in this vanilla setup

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and not have all my key bindings

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and my normal stuff ready, so.

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I am not a fan of using asterisk headings in org mode.

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It's interesting to see how people have different styles of writing org content.

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Am I not? What exactly? What did I do?

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And nodes, just open one of these.

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Okay. I could see how you could, in examples like this,

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use org-mode to read-only.

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Why? How you could use org-mode to use headings for this,

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because it's an outliner first and foremost,

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so outlining is very natural.

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But when I do in my personal setup,

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I also have this what's called start indentation thingy.

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enabled, so that means that everything

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would be indented one level from the start.

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So I would probably fiddle around

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with that to not get like crazy.

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But also, I don't see, I don't see,

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like really see when I look at this,

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I didn't see a potential to create subheadings,

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I mean, or even headings.

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The only heading here is the title,

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like in my perception of this node,

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and it's one, It's two lists.

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You could group these in headings.

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I didn't. That's right. Where's another one?

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I opened the autosave file because I'm stupid.

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OK. So this one could also be probably subdivided.

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But I'm also not sure.

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I'm also not sure if I would gain anything structurally

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if I do it like this because then I'm in a structural level

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and the stuff that just flows naturally

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as a sequence of text paragraphs,

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this here, it's not disconnected.

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It wasn't meant to be under organism

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and I need to create a new same level thing

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to say, hey, these are, I don't know, details or whatever.

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So that's maybe the real reason.

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I'm fine with writing snippets that are self-contained

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and essentially one or two or three or five or whatever,

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how many paragraphs,

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but it's not like, it's always an outline form.

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So I don't resort to this.

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My onSettle custom is usually written in Markdown.

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So I use subheadings for actual headings

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to subdivide like I would subdivide an essay

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or an article, blog post.

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But that's the mode of writing that I'm in here.

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It's like blog post writing.

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I wouldn't start with four headings for this.

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So I'm not doing that. That's a thing.

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Okay, I guess I'm going to read the questions,

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but I'm going to stop copying them in because I lose time.

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I want to reply to you, folks.

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Didn't see a need for a rack constructor.

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Thank you for capturing this. Next question.

NOTE Can you use org files and all its features inside Denote?

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Can you use org files and all its features inside Denote?

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Yes. Like this is, this is an org file

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and Denote uses org headings instead of,

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with Markdown, you get YAML front meta.

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And with org, you get these attributes,

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value attribute thingies

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that are then the metadata for the node.

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So yeah, the answer is yes. You get everything and on top,

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a small layer of a link, link management.

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That's all there is.

NOTE Where or how do you like to capture fleeting notes?

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Next question is, where or how do you like to capture fleeting notes?

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Oh, fleeting notes. If you say fleeting notes,

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you also need to say non-fleeting notes

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and figure out what these are.

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And when you say non-fleeting notes,

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and fleeting notes exist, because it's a distinction,

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and there's something on both sides of this distinction.

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If you say there's a distinction, there are two sides,

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maybe you want to subdivide the non-fleeting notes further,

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because, well, it's a non-fleeting note

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isn't very descriptive. So what else do you say there?

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And people have said a couple of things

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to define non-fleeting nodes, for example, permanent nodes.

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I guess that's a Sonke Ahrens,

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permanent nodes is the most popular.

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Let's stay with that, stick with that.

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So if you have permanent nodes and fleeting nodes,

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now we have two types of nodes. The thing is, in books,

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the only, when we would talk about note-taking

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and you would ask me, hey Christian,

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how do you take fleeting notes?

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I imagine the discussion would be in German

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because that's how people usually talk to me.

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I would pull out a book,

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this is Object-Oriented Software Engineering,

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interesting book by Iva Jacobson or Iva, Iva,

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I'm not sure because, you know,

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it's an English or American person.

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And inside I have these fleeting notes like these

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are actual paper notes square what are these three by something inch

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American standard size I guess

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and A6 minus the tariff part

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from from another notepad these are notes i took engagement notes

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if you will like engagement notes

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because the margins of the book don't suffice to take

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and this is related to i need more space so this is more space

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these are fleeting

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and as you see I have them in my pile of books

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right next to me in the shelf

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and folded them in this piece of paper,

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labeled it with the author because I lost them.

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couple of times they just fell out

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when I reached for the book

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and this is an envelope I shove it into the book

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and then forget about processing the book again

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for five or ten years. So what do I do with fleeting notes?

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I do fleeting notes on paper or if I'm using an e-reader

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maybe with an e-reader software annotation tool

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but fleeting in the most like simple non contrived sense,

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fleeting notes are meant as engagement notes

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and then you do something with them

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or like I just showed you,

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you don't because life's short, right?

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Time runs out, then you need to forget,

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then you need to remember

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how to restructure everything in your head

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to make sense of the notes again

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because they were fleeting,

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they were just little scribbles and it's

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It's basically ballast or waste.

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I'm just carrying this with me for years

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and maybe never get around to using these.

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But also, I put stuff on there, maybe I do.

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It doesn't hurt to keep them in there.

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It's just an odd collector's habit I can't get rid of.

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fleeting notes, I just capture them wherever

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and then either I process them or try to throw them away

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or forget about them

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because they're in some inbox file on a smartphone

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and then, you know, they might as well not exist,

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they're just there to engage me during the reading

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and if I don't process them in time,

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meh like, chance is up, it sucks

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Next question, like fleeting notes, permanent notes.

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I'm not going to talk about these

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unless someone asks a question.

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Zettelkasten feels like a very cagey approach

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to note-taking and knowledge management.

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Doesn't it restrict one to think in certain ways

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rather than what feels natural to someone?

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Well, yes, but so does wearing underwear, right?

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A bit of personal revelation.

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When I'm working from home, I'm wearing pants.

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You don't see them, but I don't need to.

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But I'm also kind of self-restricting myself in a way

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because there's a window,

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it's dark outside, and I'm well lit.

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And if I just stand up and have no pants on,

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I don't care that much what the neighbors like 10, 20 meters across think.

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your mileage may vary then, right?

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So there are restrictions that make sense

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to get to some point in your day-to-day life.

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And in the case of Zettelkasten,

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I try to tell people the shortest story possible

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to convey a story there, but also not to cage them in

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with 20 definitions of different notes.

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Because all that matters is try to move your thinking

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into an environment where you can write,

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where you feel comfortable writing,

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and where you can keep this stuff.

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Because I do feel comfortable with a pencil and paper.

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But what I just showed you, this might as well never have happened.

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Something has changed in my brain.

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most likely, when I engaged with a book like this.

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As far as publications and writing is concerned,

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this might as well not exist in my life,

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because I didn't do something with it.

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I mean, I was reading the book probably on a commute back then, on the train.

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I didn't take notes on the computer right away.

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So if you feel caged in,

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that may be a sign that you went too far on the,

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I need to do this, I need to do that stage,

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and lose some of the playfulness.

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There needs to be playfulness

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inside of the whole procedure, otherwise it...

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If you don't enjoy doing it, you won't be doing it.

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And if you don't do it, then you don't get a benefit.

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And it's just another chore in your life.

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Then rather not do it.

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So try to avoid the feeling of caginess

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and do whatever you want with it

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as long as you try to give your best.

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That's the cage that you will benefit from

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like really trying maybe not trying hard

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but trying in earnest to produce

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something that you can read in a year in a week whatever

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and then make sense of it like that's that's that's the minimum bar and the rest

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If you find yourself writing for hours on end,

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during the nights, during the weekends,

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whatever, and can't stop,

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then you can tackle more of the prescriptions, let's say.

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But everything I showed to you

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was there are three essential things,

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and the rest is just add-ons.

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Add-ons to inspire you to think in certain ways,

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but you don't have to do them. You can scratch all of this.

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You just need to write to think,

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and then you need to connect

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to make the thinking happen in an organic way.

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Otherwise, you get a storage that's very hard to navigate

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and doesn't grow well. Thanks. Yeah, you're welcome.

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I'm not writing another show. Yeah. Oh, combine the forums.

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Like it's a Zettelkasten anonymous group there.

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Like everyone's struggling.

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Everyone's struggling and it's okay to like,

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I'm feeling like stuck at this and that.

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And then other people will be able to relate.

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I can promise. How does it denote, question mark maybe,

00:15:10.280 --> 00:15:11.639
compared to org-roam?

00:15:11.640 --> 00:15:18.559
Roam research was setting a new trend of connectiveness

00:15:18.560 --> 00:15:21.119
because you could create recursive structures with links

00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.199
and everything is linkable.

00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.439
And it's like you put every sentence in its own org heading

00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.679
and then link to all the headings possibly

00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:31.039
and then transpile them so you can expand in place

00:15:31.040 --> 00:15:32.239
where you would link to.

00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:34.959
I think this was the approach at least.

00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:38.479
So this was a very interesting transclusion, not transpile.

00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:41.919
Transclude the contents, like move them in right then and there

00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:45.839
and not navigate to another page. It was interesting.

00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:47.439
It never made sense for me

00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.239
when people told their stories of how they used it.

00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.439
I guess you can use this tool for a lot of purposes,

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:59.199
but the prevailing story of the Rome style note-taking tools

00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:01.879
was like, just dump everything in it.

00:16:01.880 --> 00:16:04.439
And garbage in, garbage out still holds.

00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:07.559
I do keep my personal journal away

00:16:07.560 --> 00:16:10.279
from my Zettelkasten nowadays

00:16:10.280 --> 00:16:12.799
because I want to not restrict myself

00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:14.399
when I feel the urge to journal,

00:16:14.400 --> 00:16:18.919
when I want to capture something that, for example, my 15-month-old baby daughter does.

00:16:18.920 --> 00:16:21.239
Like, first time she pulled a chair

00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:22.679
out of another room to the next room

00:16:22.680 --> 00:16:25.479
just to create a ladder to then climb onto another thing.

00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:27.439
It just was, okay, this is now the time

00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.839
to take note of this. in her life, like you were this

00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.159
and that many months old when you did this.

00:16:33.160 --> 00:16:35.359
So we have some reference parts. And I could put this kind

00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:37.399
of factual information, et cetera, custom,

00:16:37.400 --> 00:16:42.199
but also, like, what if I have a toothache or whatever,

00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:47.479
and just want to gather data for whatever reason?

00:16:47.480 --> 00:16:52.119
I don't know. Like this kind of personal stuff.

00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:55.639
That's too much of the non-useful stuff

00:16:55.640 --> 00:16:58.199
in a tool that I want to use to think.

00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:00.479
I do see the appeal there.

00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:04.039
But anyway, the org-roam, like that's a roam part.

00:17:04.040 --> 00:17:05.879
You can watch a lot of videos

00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:07.159
on that to get a feel for this.

00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.559
Org-roam adopted this to make the connection easier

00:17:10.560 --> 00:17:13.479
and replicate features. As I said, porting tools

00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:16.399
that exist into Emacs, very nice pastime.

00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.079
A lot of people do this for a lot of things,

00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:20.359
but it's not a thinking environment.

00:17:20.360 --> 00:17:22.319
It's just another tool to take notes in

00:17:22.320 --> 00:17:25.279
that behave weirdly with links or interestingly with links.

00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:29.159
And Denote does do even less.

00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:31.199
It only offers you a couple of shortcuts

00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.799
to help you find files quickly.

00:17:33.800 --> 00:17:37.679
It does, like you see in the bottom here in the mode line,

00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:40.519
it does just show square brackets D

00:17:40.520 --> 00:17:44.359
instead of the whole ID, which would be rather long.

00:17:44.360 --> 00:17:48.399
So you have a buffer list that is bearable and works.

00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:51.439
You can read this and find the title quickly.

00:17:51.440 --> 00:17:56.199
Things like that, Denote does things like that.

00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.219
Oh, I closed the wrong.

00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.639
Denote does things like that very well,

00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:02.559
but it gets out of your way otherwise.

00:18:02.560 --> 00:18:04.079
Just a couple of conventions

00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:06.239
to get stuff into your file system.

00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:08.839
I'm not sure if Org-Roam now,

00:18:08.840 --> 00:18:11.199
what's the current state there?

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.399
Do they do ID generation out of the box?

00:18:13.400 --> 00:18:18.319
Is there a standard popular convention or whatever?

00:18:18.320 --> 00:18:19.879
not sure, didn't follow,

00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:21.759
but I'm very happy that org-roam still exists

00:18:21.760 --> 00:18:25.039
because I think porting tools into emacs is very cool,

00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:27.559
I guess next question,

00:18:27.560 --> 00:18:31.839
I noticed that the wikipedia link you wrote

00:18:31.840 --> 00:18:40.279
was typed wrongly, oh no garbage in, garbage out,

00:18:40.280 --> 00:18:45.079
I think garbage in, garbage out, garbage well spotted

00:18:45.080 --> 00:18:47.199
how do you do that oh I typed it

00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.679
I typed it from yeah right i didn't

00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:53.359
i didn't paste this right yeah yeah

00:18:53.360 --> 00:18:55.879
this janitorial tasks that's the umbrella term

00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:56.839
how do you deal with this

00:18:56.840 --> 00:18:59.560
like if you put stuff like this into into your notes

00:18:59.560 --> 00:19:05.759
you hopefully get a 404 code from wikipedia

00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:07.559
because the page doesn't exist

00:19:07.560 --> 00:19:11.999
let's not check um you get a 404 and then you could write a tool

00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:13.799
that checks all the links periodically

00:19:13.800 --> 00:19:17.199
and tells you about broken links like a broken link checker

00:19:17.200 --> 00:19:19.679
that then looks up maybe automatically

00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:21.919
the last good version on archive.org

00:19:21.920 --> 00:19:23.319
and then the Wayback Machine

00:19:23.320 --> 00:19:26.879
and then corrects the link with the archived version

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.479
because the live one is gone like this happens all the time on the internet

00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:31.919
and even if you don't mistype

00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:35.879
you could you know things go out of out of order so

00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:42.599
What do you do with that? You need to automate this.

00:19:42.600 --> 00:19:45.119
I'm not clicking every link manually.

00:19:45.120 --> 00:19:49.279
I have like, what's it now, 11,000 notes or something.

00:19:49.280 --> 00:19:51.999
This is not a thing that humans are good at.

00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:52.919
I'm not good at this.

00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:55.359
I will never finish anything else if I do this manually.

00:19:55.360 --> 00:19:57.079
So write a tool, write a script,

00:19:57.080 --> 00:19:58.719
get a script from the interwebs.

00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.919
There are tools like this plenty that can do it.

00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:06.319
And then you just need to do the wiring.

00:20:06.320 --> 00:20:07.599
and that should help.

00:20:07.600 --> 00:20:09.759
You could automate this in Emacs, of course, right?

00:20:09.760 --> 00:20:12.479
For every file in my node directory,

00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:14.359
look if there's a link inside

00:20:14.360 --> 00:20:16.119
and then check the URL or whatever.

00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:18.319
Also works for inter-node connections.

00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:21.239
This could also break if you rename files or remove files

00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:23.959
and don't use a denote function,

00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.879
which I believe takes care of backlinks and forward links

00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:28.639
and keeps them organized.

00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:31.399
If you do this manually on another device,

00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:38.119
out of denote, out of Emacs, in Vim, I don't know, then yeah, mistakes happen

00:20:38.120 --> 00:20:39.959
and you need to deal with mistakes

00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:44.359
and heal and create scar tissue there in some way

00:20:44.360 --> 00:20:48.279
so write janitorial tools to do that it's also,

00:20:48.280 --> 00:20:50.679
i'm mentioning the term janitorial tools

00:20:50.680 --> 00:20:51.679
a couple of times now

00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:55.439
because that's the term that we in the forums at least

00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.199
usually talk about things like find orphaned notes,

00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.119
notes that no one links to find broken links,

00:21:02.120 --> 00:21:07.479
clean up references reformat nodes, stuff like this.

00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:10.039
Find large nodes and then suggest them

00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:11.799
to the user to break them up.

00:21:11.800 --> 00:21:14.180
Like these are tasks that you can do mechanically,

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:21.719
but also it's better if you use a tool to get started,

00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:27.519
otherwise you waste a lot of time.

00:21:27.520 --> 00:21:35.199
Next question, when I complete, next long question.

00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:39.239
I'm going to copy this over because maybe

00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.399
When I completely reworked my configs from two years ago,

00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.839
I also tried some of these packages for making nodes,

00:21:44.840 --> 00:21:47.119
but none of them actually fit my purpose,

00:21:47.120 --> 00:21:51.919
because I do not like the idea of splitting up my ideas.

00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:53.279
I'm writing prose.

00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:55.639
I collect material, reading lists, and so on

00:21:55.640 --> 00:21:57.519
in just one big file. Everything fits in.

00:21:57.520 --> 00:22:00.879
In this notebook file, I do archiving from time to time.

00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:02.399
I search these files in Finder

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.439
to find old notes I would like to go back to.

00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:06.119
So if I write a paper,

00:22:06.120 --> 00:22:09.199
it's basically an extract from my old notes

00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.719
that only have one structure.

00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:17.959
when I took them time structures my thought and my notes

00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:20.359
but they would get lost if I split them up in a network

00:22:20.360 --> 00:22:22.799
like structure like a wiki etc custom my two cents

00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:32.239
by the way I work on legal sociological topics

00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:37.439
i'm a lawyer by training you know Luhmann was a german german style

00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.999
weird sociologist

00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:43.999
and sociology studies are like the first four semesters at university,

00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:48.639
where a lot of, I don't know any of the terms in English,

00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.999
a lot of these things were theories

00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:52.999
in the loosest and broadest sense.

00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.439
Some were just models of how things might behave,

00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:57.999
but nobody knew because they were not empirically backed.

00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.119
Some were empirically backed,

00:23:00.120 --> 00:23:01.959
and then also there was some sense making.

00:23:01.960 --> 00:23:03.599
And then also in sociology,

00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:08.999
you have some structure analysis of,

00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.239
like demographics and things like that.

00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:15.559
So very, very hard fact and statistics heavy things.

00:23:15.560 --> 00:23:20.639
So broad topic. And there's a lot of interconnections.

00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.599
I can see the approach here.

00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:25.359
I'm not going to defend Zettelkasten

00:23:25.360 --> 00:23:30.519
so that you in the end become a Zettelkasten aficionado

00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:33.639
or whatever I mean, if it works, fine, more power to you like

00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:37.919
reminds me of Twyla Tharp's like the shoebox approach

00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:39.159
or whatever it was called

00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:41.959
where she just dumped everything inside

00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:44.759
for her next project like an idea box,

00:23:44.760 --> 00:23:47.279
like real physical things like oh, I want to, I don't know,

00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:50.079
like this weird 8-bit do controller inside

00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:54.639
and then eventually she would spread out everything she collected,

00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:59.599
newspaper clippings and I don't know, maybe toenails or some weird stuff,

00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:01.879
I don't know what she actually put there

00:24:01.880 --> 00:24:03.359
and then make sense of this

00:24:03.360 --> 00:24:08.319
and think of something of putting these sorted pieces into context

00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:12.759
and if you just dump stuff into a notebook file

00:24:12.760 --> 00:24:20.199
and then rework the stuff, yeah, fine

00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:22.639
One answer is Zettelkasten is great for mathematics.

00:24:22.640 --> 00:24:25.239
Or maybe you can have... Oh, next question.

00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:31.439
Sorry, I jumped. So my answer is, this was not a question,

00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:34.799
and I'm happy for you. So that's still an answer.

00:24:34.800 --> 00:24:38.639
Next question. How Zettelkasten is useful

00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:42.519
for highly mathematical STEM academic fields

00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:44.839
like computer science or engineering fields,

00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:48.879
like when studying a STEM field?

00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.999
I need to unpack the acronym again maybe for the audience.

00:24:53.000 --> 00:24:58.199
M is mathematics. Engineering is E.

00:24:58.200 --> 00:25:02.519
Science and tech, tech, techno,

00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:05.599
I don't know, maybe technical. I could look this up, right?

00:25:05.600 --> 00:25:09.839
STEM, what was STEM again? I'm doing a bad job.

00:25:09.840 --> 00:25:12.079
Science, technology, engineering, mathematics.

00:25:12.080 --> 00:25:16.479
Okay, so probably technology is the computer stuff.

00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:17.159
Yeah, STEM.

00:25:17.160 --> 00:25:19.399
Dear audience, that's science, technology,

00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:22.999
engineering, mathematics, academic fields.

00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:24.799
What should we make notes of?

00:25:24.800 --> 00:25:27.199
The important bits are interconnected in a hierarchy,

00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:28.199
usually chapters of a book.

00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.639
Yes, someone did the job of making the order

00:25:31.640 --> 00:25:33.559
out of the chaotic findings

00:25:33.560 --> 00:25:35.919
that people did over hundreds of years for you.

00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:39.479
That's an order. But there are also many textbooks.

00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.759
So opinions may vary. The presentation may vary.

00:25:42.760 --> 00:25:48.279
Some textbooks may click with you,

00:25:48.280 --> 00:25:59.359
while others stay opaque, and you can't get into the meat.

00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:04.599
Sorry, I'm just typing the answer right now.

00:26:04.600 --> 00:26:13.319
Copying information to another box is not, yeah.

00:26:13.320 --> 00:26:17.719
Yeah, let's see what the first answer is.

00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.559
Someone posted that Zettelkasten is great for mathematics,

00:26:21.560 --> 00:26:22.919
incredible for computer science.

00:26:22.920 --> 00:26:25.439
With OrgBabel you can have living source code, yes,

00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:26.719
that you can execute from the node,

00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:28.479
also true for a formula,

00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:35.239
and LaTeX in interspersing of images and SVGs.

00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:37.119
You can even use Agda if you want to.

00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:39.279
Ah, I think I know who typed the answer.

00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:42.999
Hello, Oliver. If you want to have living proofs in your nodes,

00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:47.719
even inline LaTeX is in here. That's, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:58.959
quote the sentence as is and add, yeah, add something,

00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:01.319
maybe your own summary.

00:27:01.320 --> 00:27:02.959
I would suggest add your own summary

00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:11.299
because we're looking at the etherpad, right?

00:27:11.300 --> 00:27:14.639
Maybe I just copy this over so you can all the either

00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:30.879
pets indentation is missing with what Org is doing.

00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:36.999
And the answer was probably submitted by Oliver

00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.479
just in case someone wants to see

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:47.679
who that could have been with the Acta reference

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:49.799
because nobody uses Acta,

00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:55.999
nobody in the world maybe so Acta is just a yeah

00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:01.319
let's say it's good for proofing the code that you type

00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:04.399
as you type it in the compilation set very weird

00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:07.199
if you've never heard of this so check that out

00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:13.839
so question was how Zettelkasten is useful for these kinds of things

00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:16.119
yeah it sounds like in these kinds of fields

00:28:16.120 --> 00:28:18.359
that you only deal with facts

00:28:18.360 --> 00:28:24.719
that's also kind of sort of true for psychology where you have a lot of

00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:29.639
and also law where you at least in at least in German

00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:33.759
and our style of law where you have a lot of where you have thick books of law

00:28:33.760 --> 00:28:38.599
and very very little records,

00:28:38.600 --> 00:28:41.479
that's not the right phrasing,

00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:48.239
where you don't rely on the ruling as much as you do in, for example, the USA,

00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:53.919
where you need to be aware of every court ruling to then put stuff into context

00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.999
and all of this is like the current how you do law.

00:28:59.000 --> 00:29:01.039
I don't know.

00:29:01.040 --> 00:29:04.039
I'm not a lawyer and also not good at this in English.

00:29:04.040 --> 00:29:04.839
So, sorry.

00:29:04.840 --> 00:29:08.159
If I don't find the cool words and technical terms,

00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.079
you probably all know.

00:29:11.080 --> 00:29:12.639
What do you do with these kinds of things?

00:29:12.640 --> 00:29:14.719
You need to collect a lot of stuff.

00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:17.559
Like the previous questionnaire mentioned,

00:29:17.560 --> 00:29:19.719
hey, I'm just copying stuff over

00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.119
and then I have a good time and can write about this

00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:24.119
and create prose in the end.

00:29:24.120 --> 00:29:26.519
Like with mathematics, you can't.

00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:36.719
You can't do a lot when you're still working on the foundations.

00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.599
Like, what do you want to do there?

00:29:38.600 --> 00:29:41.959
You don't innovate there. You just need to learn the stuff.

00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.799
Typing things out and creating your own organization

00:29:45.800 --> 00:29:49.519
of how things are connected there,

00:29:49.520 --> 00:29:52.079
that's where the depth of processing increases,

00:29:52.080 --> 00:29:53.839
like the actual depth of processing

00:29:53.840 --> 00:29:57.759
so that it takes more effort

00:29:57.760 --> 00:30:01.399
and affects more parts of your brain, basically,

00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:03.919
which then helps with remembering stuff.

00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:12.759
I'm trying not to go into a 10 minute tangent here, but

00:30:12.760 --> 00:30:18.439
If you've ever tried to memorize stuff with flashcards

00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:20.879
and you put a, I don't know, coffee stain

00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:24.559
or a weird scribble or spilled something on one of these cards,

00:30:24.560 --> 00:30:26.639
actual physical cards there,

00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.119
this card now has another piece of information

00:30:29.120 --> 00:30:32.519
that is actually important

00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:36.119
because it makes the card stand out

00:30:36.120 --> 00:30:41.279
more and more worthy of being remembered

00:30:41.280 --> 00:30:42.639
because now one of these cards

00:30:42.640 --> 00:30:44.679
has this coffee circle thingy

00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:46.959
and all the others don't so this one stands out

00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:49.079
and this may actually improve

00:30:49.080 --> 00:30:51.519
how you learn this particular fact

00:30:51.520 --> 00:30:57.839
that you want to remember or memorize

00:30:57.840 --> 00:31:00.839
Similar, like what kind of principle

00:31:00.840 --> 00:31:04.439
do people postulate is at play here?

00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:06.399
Again, last time I went into

00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:08.079
this kind of stuff was at university,

00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:11.719
so I'm not sure if there's something new

00:31:11.720 --> 00:31:15.319
in the field of flashcard learning.

00:31:15.320 --> 00:31:18.919
I'm not aware of anything, let's say.

00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:23.279
And the idea back then that we spread

00:31:23.280 --> 00:31:25.360
and that was taught to us was like this.

00:31:27.540 --> 00:31:32.599
That more information and more context and more stimuli

00:31:32.600 --> 00:31:34.759
and making things more interesting,

00:31:34.760 --> 00:31:39.340
that's what makes it memorable.

00:31:39.341 --> 00:31:43.799
if you go for a walk and then associate things with places.

00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:47.359
Going for a walk is a different activity

00:31:47.360 --> 00:31:48.839
than imagining going for a walk.

00:31:48.840 --> 00:31:52.079
It's also different from not doing anything

00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:54.399
and just sitting in your chair

00:31:54.400 --> 00:31:56.519
and relaxing because you're not engaged.

00:31:56.520 --> 00:31:58.919
You're losing, like you're using

00:31:58.920 --> 00:32:01.959
a bit of your brain matter to do the work

00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:04.399
while the rest of your body is stagnant.

00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:07.759
You don't smell anything different.

00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:09.239
You don't hear, see, feel on your skin,

00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:11.399
everything's constant,

00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:15.239
like you're in a, what are these called?

00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.639
These chambers where you're locked

00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.479
into very salty water, I think.

00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:24.639
Floating chambers, so sensual deprivation chambers.

00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.519
You're depriving yourself of a lot of sensual input

00:32:29.520 --> 00:32:31.519
if you just try to really focus

00:32:31.520 --> 00:32:33.479
into everything with your head.

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:34.999
If you engage more of your body,

00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:36.007
if you engage more of your senses,

00:32:36.008 --> 00:32:37.674
then you have an easier time there.

00:32:37.675 --> 00:32:40.590
What does it have to do with this answer?

00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:46.799
My answer would be the value is in rephrasing,

00:32:46.800 --> 00:32:51.799
in making your own connections eventually.

00:32:51.800 --> 00:32:56.439
I don't know, the foundational laws of geometry,

00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:58.119
there's no room for innovation,

00:32:58.120 --> 00:33:00.159
but there's maybe a room for association.

00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:03.759
Like, hey, I remember this, like, if you can't figure out

00:33:03.760 --> 00:33:09.759
what the name of a certain axiom, lemma, whatever it is, and it has a name,

00:33:09.760 --> 00:33:12.679
adding your own story to the note doesn't hurt.

00:33:12.680 --> 00:33:14.839
If you say, hey, this is what my grandfather

00:33:14.840 --> 00:33:18.719
taught me with wire and sticks when we tried to measure

00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.839
whatever in the sand on a vacation one day.

00:33:22.840 --> 00:33:26.199
And these kinds of things make it more memorable.

00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:31.039
And that's at least something that you could need to then,

00:33:31.040 --> 00:33:33.999
which is the ultimate purpose of STEM at university,

00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.559
then you can pass the tests. Like that's it.

00:33:39.560 --> 00:33:42.999
You either, and eventually you embody the knowledge, right?

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:44.679
If you do this stuff over and over again,

00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:45.839
then you don't need to look up

00:33:45.840 --> 00:33:47.599
how to do a certain kind of proof.

00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:50.759
And you just do the proof when you need to do the proof.

00:33:50.760 --> 00:33:53.919
But maybe you forget all the kinds of weird proofs

00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:55.079
that you encountered in your life

00:33:55.080 --> 00:33:57.159
because you only remember the 10 most weird ones,

00:33:57.160 --> 00:33:58.519
but you had 15 in your life.

00:33:58.520 --> 00:34:00.399
And what's about the, what do you do

00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.800
with the five missing ones? They just fade away.

00:34:02.800 --> 00:34:05.279
But if you capture them in some way or another,

00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:08.559
as superficial as it may be,

00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:10.479
and you still have access to this later

00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:21.799
when you need to check your personal inventory

00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:30.519
of mathematical proofs so my answer would be

00:34:30.520 --> 00:34:33.119
let's type in my answer

00:34:33.120 --> 00:34:46.199
on either pad would be I'm not able to type.

00:34:46.200 --> 00:34:52.599
Sorry. My answer would be this.

00:34:52.600 --> 00:35:05.239
Foundational knowledge is important for tests mostly

00:35:05.240 --> 00:35:13.300
and eventually becomes your inventory of skills.

00:35:23.200 --> 00:35:25.879
Synth programming, like I don't need to look up for loops,

00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:29.519
I just do for loops and that's it, right?

00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:32.999
But still, I do have notes about for loops, I think,

00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:34.839
in different languages, like Python,

00:35:34.840 --> 00:35:37.679
the, what is it called, list comprehension.

00:35:37.680 --> 00:35:39.919
I'm not using Python, but it's so quirky.

00:35:39.920 --> 00:35:42.879
It's quirky and I captured this on a note

00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:45.879
because I needed to get myself used to the pieces

00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:48.159
and I needed to look at the syntax anyway,

00:35:48.160 --> 00:35:50.719
and then this is that part and this goes there.

00:35:50.720 --> 00:35:55.799
And I did this work, like this separation stuff on a note

00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:01.159
to then do the work with more engagement,

00:36:01.160 --> 00:36:04.599
like engage more so I can remember more later.

00:36:04.600 --> 00:36:06.079
I don't remember all the details,

00:36:06.080 --> 00:36:08.079
but I do remember there were different parts,

00:36:08.080 --> 00:36:09.519
and then I can look up the note.

00:36:09.520 --> 00:36:12.799
And it helps me refresh my memory rather quickly,

00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:15.399
because it's written by me for me

00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:17.199
in a way that I'm writing these notes

00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:18.599
for 15 years or something.

00:36:18.600 --> 00:36:27.119
16, at least, 16 years or something.

00:36:27.120 --> 00:36:30.439
So it's much better than looking, especially now,

00:36:30.440 --> 00:36:31.759
it's much better than going to the web

00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:33.399
and doing a web search for the same topic,

00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:37.199
because I will probably not get the useful resource

00:36:37.200 --> 00:36:40.199
that I relied on some eight years ago anyway,

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:41.599
but some garbage instead,

00:36:41.600 --> 00:36:44.919
maybe AI generated stuff, I don't know.

00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.319
So I have my personal copy of this

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:50.639
and it's not just copying the thing into a box,

00:36:50.640 --> 00:36:51.759
like from one box into another,

00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:53.879
from the public internet box into my own buffer,

00:36:53.880 --> 00:36:56.399
that's a custom that's closer to me,

00:36:56.400 --> 00:36:58.559
like a fridge is closer to my kitchen

00:36:58.560 --> 00:37:01.359
and where I want to eat when I'm hungry

00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:02.399
than going to the supermarket

00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.279
or out into the wild and hunt animals,

00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:06.199
like this is all about proximity

00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:10.759
and also brought about ownership, like I own these notes

00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:13.199
and I still take responsibility

00:37:13.200 --> 00:37:14.599
for what I put on them to some degree

00:37:14.600 --> 00:37:15.959
like sometimes they're really bad

00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.319
and I want to distance myself,

00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:23.919
but still yeah, so that's it, I'm just I'm leaving,

00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:29.639
I'm not typing this out, I'm leaving copy box fridge,

00:37:29.640 --> 00:37:32.119
there was a term for this, wait a second,

00:37:32.120 --> 00:37:38.839
setup custom fridge can be fridge-like buffer of knowledge

00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:48.079
I'm just, let me just try to copy this note verbatim into the etherpad

00:37:48.080 --> 00:37:51.879
and then see whether you folks can do something with it.

00:37:51.880 --> 00:38:00.959
The formatting. See appendix A. I am doing this here.

00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:10.319
Appendix A. I'm not going to read this,

00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:13.679
but then you have a FridgeLab buffer of knowledge.

00:38:13.680 --> 00:38:16.839
Local link in the supply chain. That was the term.

00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:18.199
Didn't remember that one.

00:38:18.200 --> 00:38:28.119
It's at least a local link in supply chain.

00:38:28.120 --> 00:38:36.079
Also, engagement doing the work of not copying,

00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:38.439
but rephrasing, organizing,

00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:46.399
but sometimes also just typing the stuff in

00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:51.759
that's how people romanticize learning a basic

00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:54.999
like there were magazines with a lot of code listings

00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:58.839
and they just typed the code it was quite some effort

00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:00.879
you eventually got better at this

00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:03.799
but you did do mistakes and then you needed to correct

00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:06.799
and look through the source code carefully to spot the typo

00:39:06.800 --> 00:39:11.839
That's apparently virtue, at least people claim it's a virtue.

00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:15.759
I don't deny it's a virtue because I went through the same kind of crap

00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:20.919
and I believe it strengthened my character, for sure, but still.

00:39:20.920 --> 00:39:26.639
Maybe it's not that useful, but maybe it is. I don't know.

00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:27.759
There's studies I remember,

00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:30.519
but I don't remember any interesting results.

00:39:30.520 --> 00:39:32.839
It's not like it's a 10x improvement

00:39:32.840 --> 00:39:36.959
of recall if you type this, but it may be significant.

00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.319
Just check it out for yourself. I'm not sure.

00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:40.959
Next question, sorry.

00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.639
In your experience, would you say that you reuse most of your nodes?

00:39:45.640 --> 00:39:47.959
Watching your demo, I thought that more nodes you create,

00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:51.279
the less you might reuse them. Yes, that's true.

00:39:51.280 --> 00:39:54.879
I have 11,000 nodes or something,

00:39:54.880 --> 00:39:57.239
and I don't use 11,000 nodes every day.

00:39:57.240 --> 00:39:59.879
I can only use a fraction of them.

00:39:59.880 --> 00:40:06.439
But let's say you have the Feynman Darling nodes,

00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:08.479
then you would probably use these.

00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:11.479
Imagine you have the same 12 Darlings for a year.

00:40:11.480 --> 00:40:15.559
Then you use these 12 thingies for one year more often.

00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:17.919
than most of your other nodes,

00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:19.999
because these become your entry points

00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:21.999
into what's in my Zettelkasten today.

00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.559
These become your entry points

00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:24.999
of what do I want to work on today?

00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.719
These become your, where can I put

00:40:27.720 --> 00:40:29.199
the weird stuff that I just found?

00:40:29.200 --> 00:40:31.119
Does it stick to any of these surfaces?

00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:33.719
Entry point into the process.

00:40:33.720 --> 00:40:41.839
But let's say, five years later,

00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:45.399
maybe these 12 Feynman darlings were your darlings

00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:47.719
during university studies for STEM field,

00:40:47.720 --> 00:40:49.479
where you had a hard time figuring out

00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.479
how the technical system works for your benefit.

00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.279
And then five years later, you're in a job and you don't need all of them

00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:00.799
because your subject matters from university, they're gone.

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.119
you're not at a day job and you have different darlings

00:41:03.120 --> 00:41:04.319
whatever your day job is

00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.399
maybe you're a mathematician at an insurance company

00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:14.319
so you will probably have insurance related domain darlings pouring in

00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:18.119
and some academic darlings falling off the bandwagon

00:41:18.120 --> 00:41:21.119
because no time for these maybe other hobbies come in

00:41:21.120 --> 00:41:25.919
like i didn't have anything related to child Rearing,

00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:28.999
bearing is when you produce them

00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.199
and put them into the wild, right?

00:41:30.200 --> 00:41:34.639
Rearing is when you let them grow up, I don't know

00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:36.959
Like when you have children and make them not die

00:41:36.960 --> 00:41:42.039
and get larger and do stuff, right?

00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:44.079
I did have a couple of things in advance, but

00:41:44.080 --> 00:41:47.919
That was not a daily concern. Now it is.

00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:50.999
Now I'm a father and that's a new concern in my life.

00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:54.599
Getting things done also tackled this, right?

00:41:54.600 --> 00:41:56.239
If you remember getting things done, everyone,

00:41:56.240 --> 00:41:58.559
you had areas of responsibility.

00:41:58.560 --> 00:42:00.999
It's a new area of responsibility and you could represent,

00:42:01.000 --> 00:42:06.599
sorry, you could represent these in your Zettelkasten,

00:42:06.600 --> 00:42:10.239
if you find that you can spell out your areas of responsibility

00:42:10.240 --> 00:42:12.799
well, then you can see, well, I've learned something new,

00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:14.719
can I become a better person

00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:16.879
in one of my core areas of responsibility?

00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:18.679
Yes or no? Why not?

00:42:18.680 --> 00:42:21.279
Then you will use these more than the other notes.

00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:25.159
Like the weird thing you found last month.

00:42:25.160 --> 00:42:29.079
Last month, you will probably not reference that weird thing every day.

00:42:29.080 --> 00:42:32.359
Natural process. But it's there.

00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:34.799
And eventually you get back to something,

00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.999
and then you serve access to this like that's the that

00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:43.599
and whatever this changes like going through these processes

00:42:43.600 --> 00:42:51.399
change you if I if I spend a month getting nerd sniped on

00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:56.679
I don't know chocolate manufacturing or something

00:42:56.680 --> 00:43:00.759
then I don't need this ever these things ever again most likely

00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.999
but going through the procedure of

00:43:03.000 --> 00:43:06.199
becoming the master chocolate manufacturer of my town,

00:43:06.200 --> 00:43:10.159
at least in theory, will do something with me

00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.719
when I encounter the next topic.

00:43:12.720 --> 00:43:14.959
I will think of chocolate manufacturing.

00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:17.359
I wouldn't have thought of chocolate manufacturing before.

00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:18.919
In fact, I didn't think about chocolate

00:43:18.920 --> 00:43:21.719
manufacturing yesterday. I just made this up on the spot.

00:43:21.720 --> 00:43:23.679
What does this say about me today?

00:43:23.680 --> 00:43:26.159
Maybe because we were out of chocolate,

00:43:26.160 --> 00:43:30.279
maybe because I don't know,

00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:33.159
maybe there's nothing that looks like chocolate here

00:43:33.160 --> 00:43:36.359
I don't know so it just came up and now it's there

00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.159
and things have changed for the better,

00:43:39.160 --> 00:43:41.359
for the worse, I don't know but they've changed

00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:43.719
and that's the real takeaway there

00:43:43.720 --> 00:43:44.959
where do you put the effort?

00:43:44.960 --> 00:43:48.759
where do you want to put the effort? and will it pay off?

00:43:48.760 --> 00:43:54.479
maybe if not, then maybe spend the time on something else

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.119
like don't try to exactly customize something you hate

00:43:57.120 --> 00:43:59.519
just to I don't know,

00:43:59.520 --> 00:44:04.479
do your due diligence if you don't want to

00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:06.719
because then you'll hate the process

00:44:06.720 --> 00:44:15.279
that's worse than not using nodes a lot next questions,

00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.719
how are nodes structured and accessed

00:44:17.720 --> 00:44:20.639
when the nodes grow from 10k to 100k nodes?

00:44:20.640 --> 00:44:22.119
yes, that's a field of exploration,

00:44:22.120 --> 00:44:25.919
I mean that the lower realm there I don't know anybody

00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:32.359
who's using a hyperlinked 100k node archive.

00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:37.239
I do know people who have a lot of text files

00:44:37.240 --> 00:44:38.919
like the Evernote style

00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.799
they capture everything and put the verbatim copy into their stuff

00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:47.519
and then they have a lot more items of course

00:44:47.520 --> 00:44:51.359
but these don't really count,

00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.599
these are like web clippings of websites themselves

00:44:54.600 --> 00:44:58.119
I've read how many hundreds of websites today

00:44:58.120 --> 00:45:02.919
I could have captured everything automatically,

00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:07.119
but they wouldn't, like the files there, the clippings,

00:45:07.120 --> 00:45:10.559
they wouldn't have contributed

00:45:10.560 --> 00:45:12.439
anything meaningfully to my knowledge base,

00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:14.479
because I'm not thinking about the stuff,

00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.399
I'm thinking about the stuff that I'm spending time on.

00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:18.839
What about that?

00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:20.639
Yeah, how are nodes structured and accessed

00:45:20.640 --> 00:45:22.919
when the nodes go from one to 100k?

00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:31.399
I will imagine that it becomes a matter that's speculation.

00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.759
We'll see. My speculation is this.

00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:40.639
it's going to be self-similar, like Mandelbrot images,

00:45:40.640 --> 00:45:43.199
where you have recursive patterns.

00:45:43.200 --> 00:45:46.519
First, you have a couple of nodes.

00:45:46.520 --> 00:45:49.759
You can leave through them digitally or physically easily.

00:45:49.760 --> 00:45:52.559
And then eventually, you need to rely on structures

00:45:52.560 --> 00:45:54.079
or some kinds of entry points,

00:45:54.080 --> 00:45:55.679
which we usually call structures,

00:45:55.680 --> 00:46:03.359
thanks to Sascha. Perfect. Thank you.

00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:04.799
And the clue there is,

00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:10.159
Eventually, you have hundreds or maybe thousands,

00:46:10.160 --> 00:46:12.359
not hundreds or thousands, of structure nodes.

00:46:12.360 --> 00:46:13.959
And then you have the same problem

00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.039
that you had on the lower base layer.

00:46:16.040 --> 00:46:19.199
And now you will probably look for another tool.

00:46:19.200 --> 00:46:22.759
But there is nothing else that's not also a structure node

00:46:22.760 --> 00:46:25.799
but is structuring other structures mostly

00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.119
instead of structuring the low-level nodes.

00:46:28.120 --> 00:46:31.719
But this distinction, I want to point out, doesn't pay off.

00:46:31.720 --> 00:46:34.879
it seems like it doesn't pay off

00:46:34.880 --> 00:46:37.319
to say hey i have these foundational permanent nodes

00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.759
and then i have these meta nodes

00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:40.519
these these maps and structures

00:46:40.520 --> 00:46:42.759
and then i have these super mega structures

00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:44.159
which are not permanent

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:45.519
which are not structures which are not

00:46:45.520 --> 00:46:47.919
I don't know this doesn't seem to pay off

00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.079
because eventually there is another level and another level

00:46:51.080 --> 00:46:53.519
and also sometimes you want to talk

00:46:53.520 --> 00:46:56.159
about a structure as a data point

00:46:56.160 --> 00:46:58.079
like hey I did this writing project

00:46:58.080 --> 00:47:00.159
once it was really cool link to writing project

00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:04.959
and the writing project is a table of contents huge hierarchy or whatever.

00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:06.959
Is it not a link to a thing?

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.759
Back then you get into all these weird academic questions

00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:12.799
about the nature of links

00:47:12.800 --> 00:47:17.719
and there's no gold at the end of that rainbow, let's say.

00:47:17.720 --> 00:47:21.159
At least I've never seen anyone come back with any gold.

00:47:21.160 --> 00:47:24.199
I've seen people come back with very long faces

00:47:24.200 --> 00:47:26.559
and sadness in their eyes

00:47:26.560 --> 00:47:31.239
because all the effort, all the metadata was for naught.

00:47:31.240 --> 00:47:32.919
So, how do you do this?

00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.119
You figure out, when you get to 10k,

00:47:36.120 --> 00:47:37.759
you will probably have figured,

00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:40.839
and if you do 10k, not like web clippings,

00:47:40.840 --> 00:47:42.759
but really like you did put in effort to get there

00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:46.879
and type everything yourself in one way or another

00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:47.999
you would have figured out something

00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.599
that kind of sort of works for you around that milestone.

00:47:52.600 --> 00:47:53.439
And then I believe in you,

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:58.839
you will be equipped to get to 20k, 30k,

00:47:58.840 --> 00:48:00.799
because you feel comfortable in your notes.

00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.399
And then you can expand further.

00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:03.719
And it will probably look different

00:48:03.720 --> 00:48:06.639
for someone in STEM fields than for an artist.

00:48:06.640 --> 00:48:09.079
Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

00:48:09.080 --> 00:48:14.639
Maybe a fine arts artist would woodcrafter,

00:48:14.640 --> 00:48:17.359
maybe these kinds of folks will have different structures

00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:22.519
and rely more on visuals, schemas,

00:48:22.520 --> 00:48:28.559
whole part relationships, whereas mathematicians may not.

00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:31.359
but I don't know, I don't know, we need to compare

00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:33.639
and this will be the interesting like

00:48:33.640 --> 00:48:36.159
if the internet survives and we all survive

00:48:36.160 --> 00:48:40.239
and also Zettelkasten as an idea sticks on

00:48:40.240 --> 00:48:43.039
I hope we can have this discussion

00:48:43.040 --> 00:48:44.839
every year in five years, in ten years

00:48:44.840 --> 00:48:50.039
and then see how people transparently evolve

00:48:50.040 --> 00:48:55.159
their gardens, their processes, their note-taking systems

00:48:55.160 --> 00:49:00.319
next question not a question but i would be very interested

00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:01.559
in your thoughts on this video

00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:07.039
by westenberg okay it's it's this is not spam

00:49:07.040 --> 00:49:13.959
i i don't uh there's joe westenberg's uh youtube channel

00:49:13.960 --> 00:49:15.319
why i deleted my second brain

00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:22.679
a journey back to real thinking uh

00:49:22.680 --> 00:49:30.319
I think I didn't watch the video but read an article.

00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.360
Not sure where. Let me check my Zettelkasten.

00:49:34.383 --> 00:49:36.215
It's not on screen sharing. That was stupid.

00:49:36.216 --> 00:49:48.239
I'm probably not going to watch it right now with everyone here,

00:49:48.240 --> 00:49:53.479
so my thoughts on deleting and stuff like that.

00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:58.679
I do remember there was a very cleverly written, well-written post

00:49:58.680 --> 00:50:02.719
and the claim was, from my perspective,

00:50:02.720 --> 00:50:04.919
and that's not doing the work of

00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:13.199
It's not doing the work of the author justice.

00:50:13.200 --> 00:50:19.839
But the shortest summary is that there seems to be false contradiction,

00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:24.759
where the contradiction stems from how the opposite side,

00:50:24.760 --> 00:50:27.079
the note taking, the deliberate note taking,

00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:28.159
taking a lot of notes,

00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:31.479
all the notes every time, stuff, like how this is presented.

00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:34.639
I would say this is more on the collecting

00:50:34.640 --> 00:50:36.519
and not on the connecting side of things.

00:50:36.520 --> 00:50:42.119
So like I mentioned for the, some 30 minutes ago

00:50:42.120 --> 00:50:45.039
when I talked about Roam, Roam Research.

00:50:45.040 --> 00:50:47.439
If you start your day with a daily note,

00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.679
journal style, and then branch out from there,

00:50:50.680 --> 00:50:53.759
you do at least have time as a structure

00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:57.039
that helps you to organize what you put in.

00:50:57.040 --> 00:50:59.319
But also, it can get very messy

00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:01.239
and very weirdly interconnected,

00:51:01.240 --> 00:51:04.239
like this meme of the with a guy

00:51:04.240 --> 00:51:10.919
standing in front of a board

00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:14.439
with all these lines connecting things

00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:17.239
and just, you know, with the madness in his eyes

00:51:17.240 --> 00:51:23.439
you can do a lot of stuff in there.

00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:27.839
But at a certain point, it gets hard

00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.799
to also get out of your own head, let's say.

00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:33.079
If you do it in this kind of style,

00:51:33.080 --> 00:51:35.679
it can get hard to get off your own head.

00:51:35.680 --> 00:51:39.919
And one litmus test that you may find enjoyable

00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:41.119
if you struggle with this

00:51:41.120 --> 00:51:46.199
is to publish more. Because having access

00:51:46.200 --> 00:51:49.199
to a very deeply interconnected web of stuff

00:51:49.200 --> 00:51:52.919
thoughts, ideas, notes, wisdoms, whatever

00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:55.079
very deeply connected,

00:51:55.080 --> 00:52:02.359
like not a pile, yarn, wool, what's the ball?

00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:06.519
Ball of yarn? No, that's boring.

00:52:06.520 --> 00:52:09.239
Let's say like you have a lot of yarn

00:52:09.240 --> 00:52:11.519
and then you just create chaos and entropy

00:52:11.520 --> 00:52:13.239
and can't untangle it. It's a very tangled mess.

00:52:13.240 --> 00:52:15.479
So it's a very dense, dense thingy

00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.639
that's now its own kind of structure. Like if you have this

00:52:18.640 --> 00:52:21.519
And in your head, when you think about your notes,

00:52:21.520 --> 00:52:24.639
you may have some interesting pathways there.

00:52:24.640 --> 00:52:28.999
But you need to serialize and put into a linear order

00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:30.079
in order to communicate.

00:52:30.080 --> 00:52:32.799
Otherwise, people cannot follow your thought.

00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:36.119
it's a pity because we still rely

00:52:36.120 --> 00:52:39.159
on the book style of writing

00:52:39.160 --> 00:52:42.639
and also hypertext which is making navigation easy

00:52:42.640 --> 00:52:47.439
but not telling a story easier in our modern times

00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:49.999
but we still rely a lot on books

00:52:50.000 --> 00:52:54.199
which take take a lot of intertwined stuff,

00:52:54.200 --> 00:52:58.759
put it into one order so you can read from start to finish.

00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:01.319
But then, in order for you to make sense of this,

00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:02.439
you need to chop it up,

00:53:02.440 --> 00:53:04.439
associate with things you already know,

00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:07.159
and then attach things and create a new kind of structure

00:53:07.160 --> 00:53:08.399
through the narrative,

00:53:08.400 --> 00:53:11.079
because it's only one kind of presentation

00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:12.079
that's given to you.

00:53:12.080 --> 00:53:14.919
And there may also be different kinds of presentations,

00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:16.599
like I also mentioned for the STEM fields,

00:53:16.600 --> 00:53:18.359
where you have different textbooks

00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.199
from different eras of mathematics foundations,

00:53:21.200 --> 00:53:24.140
and then you see, hey, this one clicks, this one doesn't.

00:53:24.120 --> 00:53:27.879
Why? It's the same stuff, but they present it differently.

00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:30.639
And the presentation matters. The presentation matters.

00:53:30.640 --> 00:53:33.119
And if you only deal with the chaos,

00:53:33.120 --> 00:53:34.399
the weird entanglement,

00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:36.479
if you capture everything and anything,

00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:41.239
how many, I don't know, how many hairs you lost that day or whatever.

00:53:41.240 --> 00:53:43.559
If you capture everything in there,

00:53:43.560 --> 00:53:45.119
you don't create the kind of value

00:53:45.120 --> 00:53:47.159
that is linearizable into thought,

00:53:47.160 --> 00:53:49.599
which also makes reading your own stuff later,

00:53:49.600 --> 00:53:55.839
maybe unbearable, maybe at least hard and making sense.

00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:57.719
Now we come back to one of the earlier questions,

00:53:57.720 --> 00:54:00.399
like, why do I not use outlines?

00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:03.039
Because OrgNode allows me to do outlines.

00:54:03.040 --> 00:54:06.319
Well, I try to write my notes as blog posts,

00:54:06.320 --> 00:54:09.599
very short blog posts, microblogging, if you will,

00:54:09.600 --> 00:54:11.439
paragraphs, a couple of paragraphs.

00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.279
Maybe it's also more nested because it's a huge topic.

00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:16.199
It's a complex topic. That also happens.

00:54:16.200 --> 00:54:18.039
But then it's more like an article,

00:54:18.040 --> 00:54:21.279
a long blog post, or an essay,

00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:26.279
but never just vomiting thought out onto the page,

00:54:26.280 --> 00:54:28.559
because then you will get back to the note

00:54:28.560 --> 00:54:31.199
and you will find, hey, there's a lot of vomit.

00:54:31.200 --> 00:54:36.759
But you never follow this kind of phrase with nice.

00:54:36.760 --> 00:54:40.880
I enjoyed reading that. It's always me.

00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:43.239
Oppressing because of its mass,

00:54:43.240 --> 00:54:46.279
it's also getting in the way of having new ideas

00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:48.719
because whatever is there and you need to tangle it

00:54:48.720 --> 00:54:52.759
and then you lost your new genuine idea,

00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:56.319
this can also happen.

00:54:56.320 --> 00:55:00.759
So I'm not sure what the Westenberg video contains,

00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:03.799
but the sentiment there of deleting everything,

00:55:03.800 --> 00:55:06.999
it makes sense if you find yourself in a situation

00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.359
where you don't have a productive system.

00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:13.199
and the notes from 2009 in my own Zettelkasten

00:55:13.200 --> 00:55:15.159
aren't of the highest quality standards

00:55:15.160 --> 00:55:17.959
I rewrite most of them when I encounter them,

00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:23.399
but I can still use a couple as is and sometimes they're just garbage,

00:55:23.400 --> 00:55:28.119
but as Luhmann said garbage like trickles to the ground

00:55:28.120 --> 00:55:34.599
and forms a nice sediment layer there in the septic tank of your thought machine,

00:55:34.600 --> 00:55:36.439
your thought thinking environment.

00:55:36.440 --> 00:55:40.319
But clear water separates and then rises to the top

00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.439
and that's what you work with.

00:55:42.440 --> 00:55:47.759
it's never going to be 100% useful. But if it's 90% garbage

00:55:47.760 --> 00:55:51.479
and if the water is, if the septic tank is never clearing,

00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:54.399
then you probably need to start

00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:55.559
over and rethink your approach.

00:55:55.560 --> 00:55:57.319
Maybe there was just too much garbage,

00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:01.559
too much toxic waste in there, whatever that means, right?

00:56:01.560 --> 00:56:07.839
So I do understand this, but also I would say

00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:11.479
maybe maybe they tried to do too much with a different mindset

00:56:11.480 --> 00:56:24.839
and it just didn't click and then they,

00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.199
you know next question is there a danger?

00:56:27.200 --> 00:56:41.959
also, wait a second, answer do not probably a lot of collection,

00:56:41.960 --> 00:56:52.359
not a lot of stinking in the Zettelkasten to some purpose.

00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:58.700
Usually. Conflation was the word I was fishing for.

00:56:58.701 --> 00:57:02.840
Usually posts videos like this.

00:57:02.841 --> 00:57:10.090
Conflate note taking as a dumping ground

00:57:10.091 --> 00:57:22.174
for stuff with something that is valuable in the long term.

00:57:22.175 --> 00:57:27.599
Also if this was our dear friend Westenberg

00:57:27.600 --> 00:57:30.439
I think the note count also was higher,

00:57:30.440 --> 00:57:33.519
but I might confuse them with someone else.

00:57:33.520 --> 00:57:36.959
The note count was way higher than mine. Note count.

00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:41.239
But then also, you know, there's the sign

00:57:41.240 --> 00:57:44.159
of going for quantity in...

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:47.719
just capture anything, like capturing,

00:57:47.720 --> 00:57:48.799
that's not the bottleneck.

00:57:48.800 --> 00:57:52.479
The bottleneck is finding, making connections happen,

00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:55.919
having thoughts and working on problems

00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:57.279
you really want to solve in the long term.

00:57:57.280 --> 00:57:59.159
So next question.

00:57:59.160 --> 00:58:02.359
Is there a danger that with the settled custom process,

00:58:02.360 --> 00:58:05.679
that the process gets a bit in the way of the content?

00:58:05.680 --> 00:58:12.279
yes, especially if you do it like old school style

00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:14.639
if you find that your handwriting sucks

00:58:14.640 --> 00:58:16.079
and you want to type things

00:58:16.080 --> 00:58:19.199
on a typewriter like that kind of process

00:58:19.200 --> 00:58:20.479
definitely gets in the way

00:58:20.480 --> 00:58:21.759
that's going to be your bottleneck

00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:24.679
you can't find black paper

00:58:24.680 --> 00:58:30.759
and put it into your typewriter and then like that's not the speed of thought

00:58:30.760 --> 00:58:35.959
that's the speed of, I don't know, my long deceased grandmother

00:58:35.960 --> 00:58:54.479
but yeah it's not like a strive for speed of thought tools

00:58:54.480 --> 00:59:00.439
not needing a typewriter

00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:10.519
and then next step reduce ritual reduce rituals and ceremony

00:59:10.520 --> 00:59:15.239
What I mean by that is if you find yourself doing the same moves

00:59:15.240 --> 00:59:16.799
or similar moves over and over again,

00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:19.439
but they don't contribute

00:59:19.440 --> 00:59:23.479
to having more cool ideas per week, then maybe ditch these,

00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:26.639
apart from the day timestamp,

00:59:26.640 --> 00:59:28.479
having a title, hashtags, and content,

00:59:28.480 --> 00:59:32.399
and also being very, very careful about quoting my sources.

00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:35.639
I don't do much with my et cetera.

00:59:35.640 --> 00:59:37.679
I cannot give up quoting my sources

00:59:37.680 --> 00:59:39.399
because then I'm plagiarizing, stealing,

00:59:39.400 --> 00:59:41.879
forgetting where I get ideas from and confuse.

00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:44.599
And I get out because I'm aware of the problem there.

00:59:44.600 --> 00:59:47.599
I'm also not trusting my own notes anymore.

00:59:47.600 --> 00:59:51.159
would not be trusting my own notes anymore

00:59:51.160 --> 00:59:53.919
i need to properly cite so then i can see hey

00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:56.559
this block has no quotations that's mine

00:59:56.560 --> 01:00:00.559
and i can trust this it's not like hey this is maybe mine

01:00:00.560 --> 01:00:04.039
maybe this is a verbatim quote from a book like this

01:00:04.040 --> 01:00:05.799
is not helping that's a ceremony

01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:09.039
that's paying off in the long term also

01:00:09.040 --> 01:00:11.319
so that when you write something

01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:15.159
you have all the sources at hand

01:00:15.160 --> 01:00:17.279
that's a useful ceremony title

01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:20.799
is just a way of summarizing the content

01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:25.119
do it like an excerpt, right?

01:00:25.120 --> 01:00:26.919
you have the whole content, that's your etc.

01:00:26.920 --> 01:00:29.879
do a short summary, that may be your introduction.

01:00:29.880 --> 01:00:33.239
So have a way to quickly get a glimpse of the relevance

01:00:33.240 --> 01:00:35.919
before having to read the whole settle

01:00:35.920 --> 01:00:38.719
when you encounter it years from now.

01:00:38.720 --> 01:00:41.319
And then have a one, that's one sentence summary,

01:00:41.320 --> 01:00:44.159
and then have an even more condensed form that's a title.

01:00:44.160 --> 01:00:45.679
The title is basically your API,

01:00:45.680 --> 01:00:49.359
the interface for you and your nodes.

01:00:49.360 --> 01:00:54.879
And it needs to uphold some kind of contract.

01:00:54.880 --> 01:00:57.319
And if it just is, like, this is my second note,

01:00:57.320 --> 01:01:00.239
that's not useful. This is just a technical limitation

01:01:00.240 --> 01:01:02.839
because you can't have the same file name twice.

01:01:02.840 --> 01:01:05.639
That's not going to be useful.

01:01:05.640 --> 01:01:09.519
But if you give yourself the permission to take time

01:01:09.520 --> 01:01:12.919
of titling your notes in one way and also changing titles,

01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:16.199
because you will know from writing introductions

01:01:16.200 --> 01:01:18.679
the further you get along,

01:01:18.680 --> 01:01:22.279
the more and more you need to rewrite your introductions

01:01:22.280 --> 01:01:24.639
because your understanding changes same for titles

01:01:24.640 --> 01:01:28.319
titles don't always stay consistent or constant

01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.079
that's why I don't link by title, because I would then need

01:01:31.080 --> 01:01:34.279
to go through my node archive and also need to go to

01:01:34.280 --> 01:01:39.999
my node archive and need to correct all the links

01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:44.039
that's a janitorial task I like to not do, if I can

01:01:44.040 --> 01:01:49.759
So answer here, less ceremony, fewer ceremonies, plural.

01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:54.359
Try to only do the minimum possible, minimum viable thing.

01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:57.599
And using Emacs and D-Node, you get a lot of defaults.

01:01:57.600 --> 01:01:58.719
And then you need to worry

01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:01.199
not about IDs and tags that much,

01:02:01.200 --> 01:02:04.159
or where to put them and how to put them.

01:02:04.160 --> 01:02:06.439
You can omit keywords. You can leave keywords out.

01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:08.159
They don't scale anyway.

01:02:08.160 --> 01:02:12.079
But they may be interesting as a way to group,

01:02:12.080 --> 01:02:19.959
but also Sascha from zettelkasten.de, from our website,

01:02:19.960 --> 01:02:23.279
Sascha also found that, I believe, he,

01:02:23.280 --> 01:02:28.119
structures win in the long term.

01:02:28.120 --> 01:02:30.719
Manual created hubs and overviews

01:02:30.720 --> 01:02:34.639
win over machine generated lumps.

01:02:34.640 --> 01:02:37.959
Because you need to reorient yourself

01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:42.239
in the search results all the time.

01:02:42.240 --> 01:02:45.679
That's not as useful as having a pathway

01:02:45.680 --> 01:02:49.559
through your nodes that you can follow.

01:02:49.560 --> 01:02:52.039
It may not be a pathway through all of your nodes, of course,

01:02:52.040 --> 01:02:56.159
but it may be a pathway from entry point into some topic.

01:02:56.160 --> 01:03:01.839
That's why some things are essential and others aren't.

01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:06.239
And the essential stuff, try to do it quickly, get better at it,

01:03:06.240 --> 01:03:08.799
practice the movements, then they get out of the way,

01:03:08.800 --> 01:03:10.919
and then you can focus on having ideas

01:03:10.920 --> 01:03:12.119
and typing them at speed of thought,

01:03:12.120 --> 01:03:15.239
more or less, and then you're good.

01:03:15.240 --> 01:03:20.639
I hope. Wishing you all the best. Next and last question.

01:03:20.640 --> 01:03:24.519
How do you navigate looking at all posts with a certain text?

01:03:24.520 --> 01:03:26.679
This might be an emacs, already new to emacs.

01:03:26.680 --> 01:03:28.679
I just may have answered this.

01:03:28.680 --> 01:03:40.159
How do you navigate looking at all posts with a certain text?

01:03:40.160 --> 01:03:42.959
Let me go to my actual node archive.

01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:55.919
and then php no language learning ah

01:03:55.920 --> 01:03:59.319
this is not my setup I'm very clumsy

01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:03.119
I'm sorry, I don't know swift language learning

01:04:03.120 --> 01:04:28.465
ah that's that's a boring one php By this time, I could have also,

01:04:28.466 --> 01:04:35.299
ah, there's the model. This would be an entry point

01:04:35.300 --> 01:04:39.159
into my PHP atom molecule organism learning journey

01:04:39.160 --> 01:04:43.159
where I tried to practice, what's visual line mode, sorry,

01:04:43.160 --> 01:04:48.919
where I tried to practice this atom molecule thing on something new.

01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:51.879
I haven't used PHP in a long time

01:04:51.880 --> 01:04:59.199
and found that I wasn't, yeah, you can see it on the screen also

01:04:59.200 --> 01:05:01.439
like language primitives are the atoms,

01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:08.759
I think molecules are more like idioms or patterns that are PHP special in PHP

01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:10.599
and different in other languages in Python

01:05:10.600 --> 01:05:13.759
would be list comprehension that's in a molecule

01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:16.319
and but also you can make a point for hey,

01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:18.519
this comprehension is more like a syntactical thing,

01:05:18.520 --> 01:05:23.439
no no get out of here, like the for loop is the syntactical atom

01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:25.039
and the molecule is using the for loop

01:05:25.040 --> 01:05:26.559
with weird other stuff

01:05:26.560 --> 01:05:28.199
to then make the list comprehension happen.

01:05:28.200 --> 01:05:33.679
That's my argument there, okay? So what do we do with this?

01:05:33.680 --> 01:05:38.519
I use this as an entry point if I want to see,

01:05:38.520 --> 01:05:41.639
hey, what kind of stuff did I take notes on

01:05:41.640 --> 01:05:43.439
to get a better understanding

01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:45.239
on multiple levels of the language.

01:05:45.240 --> 01:05:47.479
And project structure conventions

01:05:47.480 --> 01:05:49.319
and usually another language

01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:53.239
that I use more here would be, but I can't remember now.

01:05:53.240 --> 01:05:57.479
Funny, right? I can't remember how I would need to look,

01:05:57.480 --> 01:05:58.959
but I think I'm too clumsy in Emacs

01:05:58.960 --> 01:06:00.639
to do it live on camera, sorry.

01:06:00.640 --> 01:06:05.759
But the organisms part here would also be like my own inventions,

01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:06.559
let's say in code,

01:06:06.560 --> 01:06:11.119
like my own discoveries where I found that in Swift, for example,

01:06:11.120 --> 01:06:13.359
you can express things on the type level

01:06:13.360 --> 01:06:15.639
in a very sexy way sometimes.

01:06:15.640 --> 01:06:19.439
And then I would put these there as well.

01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:20.959
So these are also,

01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:26.559
There are organisms to discover in the language reference,

01:06:26.560 --> 01:06:30.599
but there are also organisms to discover in the world,

01:06:30.600 --> 01:06:32.559
and then they are your own inventions,

01:06:32.560 --> 01:06:36.519
discoveries, more or less. And that's a sign of mastery.

01:06:36.520 --> 01:06:38.719
If you work more on these things,

01:06:38.720 --> 01:06:40.959
then you don't need to worry

01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:42.399
about the basics of the language anymore.

01:06:42.400 --> 01:06:46.239
So I can use this as an entry point

01:06:46.240 --> 01:06:51.039
to get into things that are very PHP-esque.

01:06:51.040 --> 01:06:54.359
When do I need this? When I want to talk about PHP,

01:06:54.360 --> 01:06:55.359
like I do now.

01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:59.359
Why do I show this when the question is about tags?

01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:10.919
Because if I search for... Which one do I take?

01:07:10.920 --> 01:07:22.719
Let's try grep. php. Yep, grep exited the anomaly.

01:07:22.720 --> 01:07:28.039
Dang, why? Option requires an argument.

01:07:28.040 --> 01:07:36.159
Yes, eshell is there.

01:07:36.160 --> 01:07:43.919
So let's just use rg, ripgrep and then ripgrep for php.

01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:50.879
And you see I get, I can do filenames only, right?

01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:56.599
Let's not worry. I get a lot of, let's just scroll up.

01:07:56.600 --> 01:08:03.239
I get a lot more hits here for the PHP tech,

01:08:03.240 --> 01:08:06.759
which is only about PHP specific things,

01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:09.559
not about anything that I do in PHP.

01:08:09.560 --> 01:08:15.279
Like, I don't know, I don't take Laravel or Filament,

01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.879
which are frameworks, libraries in PHP,

01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:21.199
the Zend library or whatever, I don't know many.

01:08:21.200 --> 01:08:23.199
Like I wouldn't take everything

01:08:23.200 --> 01:08:26.999
and anything that is related to the php ecosystem

01:08:27.000 --> 01:08:28.399
with the php hashtag.

01:08:28.400 --> 01:08:30.679
Why? Because then the tag becomes useless.

01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:33.439
I only tag things that are about the language.

01:08:33.440 --> 01:08:39.159
Like how do I pass variables to php includes that's php related.

01:08:39.160 --> 01:08:44.879
And you see these are... I'm still not at the top.

01:08:44.880 --> 01:08:48.399
now i'm at the top these are a lot more findings than you could

01:08:48.400 --> 01:08:49.879
these don't fit on the screen

01:08:49.880 --> 01:08:51.919
these are three pages i believe

01:08:51.920 --> 01:08:55.039
and the note about my language learning journey was

01:08:55.040 --> 01:08:58.999
wasn't even one full page here's white space

01:08:59.000 --> 01:09:02.799
there wasn't okay right but still there's much more stuff

01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:07.479
the hashtag I don't use for navigating.

01:09:07.480 --> 01:09:10.839
I only use this, let's say, the shotgun approach.

01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:14.239
I think Sascha on our Zettelkasten blog post,

01:09:14.240 --> 01:09:16.359
don't remember which post, mentioned this as well.

01:09:16.360 --> 01:09:18.079
Sometimes you need a sniper rifle.

01:09:18.080 --> 01:09:21.319
Sometimes you need a shotgun.

01:09:21.320 --> 01:09:27.199
And the hashtag-based search would be I don't know what I'm looking for.

01:09:27.200 --> 01:09:32.959
It was PHP related. I hope I use the hashtag correctly

01:09:32.960 --> 01:09:36.879
and then kill all these nodes from my archive.

01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:38.959
The metaphor doesn't work that way,

01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:41.279
but still you get a lot of results here

01:09:41.280 --> 01:09:45.959
and you could use this as a way to filter from 11,000 nodes

01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:53.559
down to 50 or so, maybe less.

01:09:53.560 --> 01:09:58.999
And if you got this far, then you can start to do it in a mechanical way again.

01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:05.279
But wait, if you have 100 or 1000 nodes in the results there,

01:10:05.280 --> 01:10:08.279
then you can't mechanically go through all the nodes again.

01:10:08.280 --> 01:10:09.919
You can maybe skim and look

01:10:09.920 --> 01:10:11.159
for something that catches your eye,

01:10:11.160 --> 01:10:14.159
if you're lucky, and if that's the thing

01:10:14.160 --> 01:10:15.039
that works for you.

01:10:15.040 --> 01:10:21.319
but usually no, like usually the text become useless

01:10:21.320 --> 01:10:24.079
then maybe tag groups become more useful

01:10:24.080 --> 01:10:28.039
like PHP and LSP which is on screen here

01:10:28.040 --> 01:10:30.799
like then maybe the combination of two tags

01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:32.519
that reduces the search terms enough

01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:36.639
like this is basically glorified full text search

01:10:36.640 --> 01:10:41.359
where you highlight certain terms of importance that's it,

01:10:41.360 --> 01:10:44.999
I wouldn't use I wouldn't put more effort in there

01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:48.639
It's also maybe useful to group things by topic.

01:10:48.640 --> 01:10:52.399
For example, study notes like, I don't know,

01:10:52.400 --> 01:10:56.759
this is my undergrad, third semester,

01:10:56.760 --> 01:11:01.279
what do you do in the third semester, I don't know,

01:11:01.280 --> 01:11:06.399
history of philosophy of science of birds,

01:11:06.400 --> 01:11:10.959
very long course name, and then week 10.

01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:13.199
And then you assemble everything

01:11:13.200 --> 01:11:15.479
with this very technical tagging.

01:11:15.480 --> 01:11:18.239
Then you can use these folders

01:11:18.240 --> 01:11:20.999
to loosely group stuff together

01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:23.119
that happened during that week.

01:11:23.120 --> 01:11:26.519
And if you have 10 required readings and then do five of them,

01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:28.879
but they're also not closely interrelated,

01:11:28.880 --> 01:11:33.639
you will have read five to 10 different sources that you could process.

01:11:33.640 --> 01:11:36.319
You could maybe then also create an overview node

01:11:36.320 --> 01:11:38.359
as a preparation for the seminar

01:11:38.360 --> 01:11:44.799
whatever happens at university.

01:11:44.800 --> 01:11:51.199
Then the hashtag becomes just a way to group things.

01:11:51.200 --> 01:11:52.479
But once you create the structure node,

01:11:52.480 --> 01:11:55.039
you don't need the hashtags to navigate anymore.

01:11:55.040 --> 01:11:57.679
You could then maybe use the hashtags not to navigate

01:11:57.680 --> 01:12:02.919
but to to clump, to create collections,

01:12:02.920 --> 01:12:07.759
pre-assembled to some degree collections of things that exist already,

01:12:07.760 --> 01:12:09.559
get them out there and then review them.

01:12:09.560 --> 01:12:13.319
Like Twyla Tharp again, dumping all the notes on a table,

01:12:13.320 --> 01:12:15.519
all the stuff on the table,

01:12:15.520 --> 01:12:17.759
not just notes, all the clippings and so on and so on,

01:12:17.760 --> 01:12:18.959
and then making sense of them.

01:12:18.960 --> 01:12:21.639
That's what you can use a hashtag search for in the longterm.

01:12:21.640 --> 01:12:27.799
And I'm not convinced about navigational use in the longterm.

01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:31.439
which doesn't mean that it won't work for you,

01:12:31.440 --> 01:12:32.799
but I can't recommend it.

01:12:32.800 --> 01:12:34.899
I can't recommend trying to do it that way.

01:12:34.900 --> 01:12:37.882
So my answer is going to be, how do you navigate

01:12:37.883 --> 01:12:45.507
looking at all posts with certain tags? I don't.

01:12:45.508 --> 01:12:53.439
Tags are just a way to loosely group notes and stuff in general

01:12:53.440 --> 01:13:05.519
so that you can find potentially, PP, why doesn't P work?

01:13:05.520 --> 01:13:14.919
Potentially relevant pieces of information more quickly.

01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:34.959
Navigational aids. Create navigational aids

01:13:34.960 --> 01:13:38.049
things that help you navigate like this is for a week

01:13:38.050 --> 01:13:42.479
what did I say 10 of semester three

01:13:42.480 --> 01:13:44.632
uh the history of the sociology

01:13:44.633 --> 01:13:46.799
of the philosophy of science of birds

01:13:46.800 --> 01:13:51.559
or something lump things together there then you have a

01:13:51.560 --> 01:13:54.119
then you have a scratch pad to think on you do this

01:13:54.120 --> 01:13:59.279
did do this when you went to university with paper anyway, right?

01:13:59.280 --> 01:14:01.039
You would get your college book or whatever

01:14:01.040 --> 01:14:04.439
and then you would take notes and these like that location

01:14:04.440 --> 01:14:07.159
of that piece of paper in your college book

01:14:07.160 --> 01:14:09.959
in your whatever notes folder

01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:15.039
that's the important piece of information

01:14:15.040 --> 01:14:20.079
and the scratchpad, the thinking environment for this course

01:14:20.080 --> 01:14:22.679
and if you have all the other things

01:14:22.680 --> 01:14:24.679
that you ever did at your disposal as well

01:14:24.680 --> 01:14:26.839
maybe pull them in maybe pull them in

01:14:26.840 --> 01:14:28.759
and then bring them to the discussion

01:14:28.760 --> 01:14:31.479
with your professor or your teaching assistant

01:14:31.480 --> 01:14:35.199
and asking about, well, I read these five books

01:14:35.200 --> 01:14:37.159
that you recommended for this week.

01:14:37.160 --> 01:14:40.439
Thank you for recommending five whole books

01:14:40.440 --> 01:14:45.399
for one week of reading. I really enjoyed that. Long pause.

01:14:45.400 --> 01:14:50.599
And then you say, I also thought about other topics

01:14:50.600 --> 01:14:54.359
and brought them into a, I don't know, dialectic or position.

01:14:54.360 --> 01:14:58.959
What do you think about foxes in that regard

01:14:58.960 --> 01:15:01.599
and their own history and subjectivity

01:15:01.600 --> 01:15:08.639
when it comes to the bird's point of view or something, right?

01:15:08.640 --> 01:15:10.999
You can only do this if you either know this by heart

01:15:11.000 --> 01:15:12.999
because you do this a lot,

01:15:13.000 --> 01:15:15.279
think a lot about this stuff or you do this,

01:15:15.280 --> 01:15:18.799
you stumble upon this and then look for oppositions,

01:15:18.800 --> 01:15:19.959
look for certain patterns in your notes

01:15:19.960 --> 01:15:22.479
and then try to pull them in and represent them again

01:15:22.480 --> 01:15:26.239
so they actually do exist and then you can work with this,

01:15:26.240 --> 01:15:27.399
you can get on people's nerves

01:15:27.400 --> 01:15:30.959
you can write weird papers, essays

01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:33.719
and then get through your university studies quickly

01:15:33.720 --> 01:15:35.959
maybe also become an interesting columnist,

01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:39.319
I don't know, I've never been a columnist Right.

01:15:39.320 --> 01:15:44.079
I think these are all the questions.

01:15:44.080 --> 01:15:47.159
I'm going to delete the leftover ones.

01:15:47.160 --> 01:15:52.439
I hope you enjoyed some of the answers.

01:15:52.440 --> 01:15:58.159
Thank you so much. Thank you. That's a lot.

01:15:58.160 --> 01:16:02.759
We'll go back and get everything transcribed as well

01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:08.599
and then you can turn that into other articles in the future

01:16:08.600 --> 01:16:10.119
because that's how this all works, right?

01:16:10.120 --> 01:16:14.319
It all turns into writing. It all does.

01:16:14.320 --> 01:16:15.999
All the rest is garbage.

01:16:16.000 --> 01:16:20.799
I don't know why we invented anything else.

01:16:20.800 --> 01:16:23.919
It's only useful to transfer language before writing,

01:16:23.920 --> 01:16:26.279
but now you can just read.

01:16:26.280 --> 01:16:29.719
We have two people in the big blue button room

01:16:29.720 --> 01:16:33.799
who are still around, but I think they've got their, like,

01:16:33.800 --> 01:16:35.719
they don't have microphones set up.

01:16:35.720 --> 01:16:40.679
So I don't know if you want to just, like, CryptKNFL,

01:16:40.680 --> 01:16:44.339
if you want to just follow up through the etherpad,

01:16:44.340 --> 01:16:47.639
or email, I guess, in case you have further questions.

01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:50.119
But yeah, if you want to wrap up,

01:16:50.120 --> 01:16:52.799
I know it's getting a little bit late over there,

01:16:52.800 --> 01:16:55.919
you're in your time zone. Thank you so much.

01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:59.679
Yeah, all right. Thank you. You're welcome.

01:16:59.680 --> 01:17:02.719
Thanks for joining and listening.

01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:07.640
Okay, I'll wrap it up here then.