path: root/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-open-mic--open-session--participants--main.vtt

WEBVTT

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All right, so yes, we have a little bit of time

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while we are waiting for the dev track to finish,

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and we could just declare this as a break,

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or if anyone's got any interesting last-minute stuff,

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you can come and share it here,

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where Karthik is also hanging out.

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I think every time I read one of your long blog posts,

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Karthik, I'm like, mm, life goals.

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Someday I want to write something with nice diagrams

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and, you know, deep Emacs interestingness.

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I have not yet gotten the hang of even using avy

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to nearly the extent that you do.

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But yes, I have, I have always looked

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at your diagrams very longingly

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and wondered how you make them.

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With a lot of sweat and cursing, unfortunately.

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It's all very nice. Yeah.

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And I, I, I've seen your interactive SVGs,

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which is just wizardry. I have no idea how you do that.

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You can hover over different elements in the SVG

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and do interesting things.

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Yeah, so it turns out if you just think of them as XML,

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which Emacs will let you

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because you can just control C, control C,

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and it'll switch back to text mode, right?

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Then you can be like, oh, yeah, I can work with this

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using the DOM Emacs list library.

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And then you can add title elements to it to get the hovers,

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or you can add hyperlinks.

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So in fact, the emacs-conf schedule

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is very naturally generated from emacs-lisp itself,

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because there was no way I was going to handle

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two track schedules by hand.

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And that's just SVG so that you can then have the hovers.

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The important thing is that when you're exporting it to HTML,

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it has to be an inline SVG to get the fancy behaviors.

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If you're linking it in as an image, then it doesn't work.

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It has to be inline. So for example, for my org mode,

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I have my exports for images checked first if it's an SVG.

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And unless I have an attribute

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on it that says, no, just link to it because it's large and not interactive,

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it actually inlines all of that markup

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into the exported HTML, if that makes sense.

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That does, that does make sense.

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It's a little less mysterious now.

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On the plus side, once it is in there as inline HTML,

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well, inline, you know, it's an inline markup,

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you can actually play around with it

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using JavaScript or CSS. That's really neat.

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I had a question about some other SVG wizardry I've seen you do.

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You have these SVGs that grow, right?

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Like they accumulate elements, almost like a slideshow.

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Am I remembering that correctly? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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I started using that for one

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of the EmacsConf presentations.

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Well, the one EmacsConf presentation

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I've done in recent history,

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because it's nice to be able to add things gradually, right?

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Especially as you're giving a presentation.

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And that's also done with Emacs Lisp.

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What I do is, first I make the image, and then in Inkscape,

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I can group together the elements

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that I want to appear at the same time.

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And then I can use Emacs to, I think I just changed the,

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I just add some CSS to them to make them dimmer.

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and you just iterate through the different groups in that level,

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and you write out the intermediate SVG files,

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and then you can use Inkscape

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to convert them into PNGs if you want,

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like images of each step

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that are in PNG format instead of SVG.

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But the basic idea is you group

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the elements together that you want in one step,

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and then you can manipulate it

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using the Emacs DOM.EL library,

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because it's just an XML document.

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So you can say, all right, hide everything or have everything visible

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and then remove the last one or something like that, you know, iterated.

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Show them one at a time and then write your resulting document object model

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to a new file each step. Do you have, that makes sense.

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So do you just write the e-list,

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like is this on a case-by-case basis?

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Like every time you need to do this,

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do you write fresh e-list to step through the SVG this way?

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Or do you have some kind of package

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or library to do this more?

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Let me go see if this is the one.

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It's probably just buried in my config.

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If I do it again, I'm sure I will find another thing

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that I've completely forgotten about

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and therefore have to recode or fix or whatever.

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But let me go see. Can you see my screen? Yep. OK.

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So, oh, yeah, yeah, this one. Nice, I remember that one.

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OK, so we get this SVG, and then this animateSVGPaths

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is just a function I have. It takes the file name.

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It makes an output there. It adds one path back at a time.

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And it just creates a lot of these numbered frames.

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So as you can see here,

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I'm just saying, OK, take the whole thing.

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And then I think, yeah, maybe I said it like,

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you know, take the whole thing,

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make everything transparent,

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and then one at a time, make them opaque

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and save that, save that to the frame, to the image.

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So this theoretically is a somewhat reusable function

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that takes the SVG and just fills the directory with it.

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What's the order in which it reveals things?

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Top to bottom or bottom to top, it's whatever the SVG has.

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And so if you're grouping things together,

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you can rearrange things in Inkscape.

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If you've given them IDs,

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which I have another function for in Emacs list

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that just highlights something

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and lets me put an ID for it,

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then you can rearrange them yourself

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by looking at the markup, I guess.

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Or I think I actually have some code also

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that will rearrange the path

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based on a list of IDs that I give it.

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and sequence so this one is animating

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one element at a time here

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um it's kind of like interesting effect

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but for larger things like for this one

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i can split this up into groups

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because i don't want to necessarily animate them letter by letter and that one

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Oh yes, this is the function that I have

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for identifying the paths

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and it highlights it and then it asks me for a name.

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And this is the one that reorders it.

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So I can say, this is the sequence

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that I want it animated in. And it will, yeah, good.

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So you don't actually need Inkscape at all, right?

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Because you have an elisp function

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that will let you assign the order interactively.

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Yeah, so if you're doing just all the elements one after the other,

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Inkscape is helpful for combining the different shapes,

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well, breaking it apart,

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because when I get the PDF and I convert it,

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it's like one big element that has a very complex path.

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And if I want to animate it element by element,

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I have to break it apart

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and then recombine it so that, you know, so that this O looks like it's hollow

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instead of like a circle.

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So there's a little bit of Inkscape

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cleaning up before then,

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but I really dislike the mouse heavy stuff of Inkscape

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for assigning IDs and things like that.

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I haven't quite gotten the hang of it.

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So this is what it looks like

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before you group the elements together

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and you combine paths,

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which is what you have to do Inkscape for,

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because I can't make sense of the numbers in Emacs someday.

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So just combine, combine, combine. But once it's there,

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I don't like having to set the ID in this

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object properties on the right side,

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because there's a lot of clicking.

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press escape and tab and tab, it's not reliable.

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So that's why I have this function

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and it lets me identify the paths and animate them

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from within Emacs, because Emacs is a text editor.

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Yeah, in name only, but anyway.

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So the groups, if you've already assigned groups in Inkscape,

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Then when you run it through this function in Emacs,

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you can assign an ordering to the groups,

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the order in which it will be revealed.

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Yeah. What I did was I gave it all IDs.

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So I gave each group an ID.

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And then when I have the ID, I can say, you know, maybe when I group it,

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I'm doing it in a bit of a haphazard way,

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not grouping the first thing first,

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and then the second thing, and the third thing.

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So it's a bit of a mess.

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And this one just resorts it by, I think,

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just looking everything up, storing it,

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and then putting it back in order.

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I probably have the code for this somewhere,

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and if it's not, it's in the source code.

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There should be a source.

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Yes, so this is an org source for this post,

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and if it's not in there, then it should be in my config,

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the definition of this function.

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We are to pass. Here we are. Yeah, there you go.

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So there, it just, it takes it, it looks for it,

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and it adds it to the first layer.

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Okay, you've just explained the magic,

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which makes it less magical,

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but also something I could try. Yeah, this is interesting.

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Yeah, S2G is surprisingly powerful. Yeah, I know.

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I know it can do a lot more

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than what we typically use it for.

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So you also had this feature where, I think you used CSS,

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where if you mouse over something in the SVG,

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something is highlighted in your webpage.

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Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Like in the organizer's notebook.

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So I have a draft schedule here.

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Yeah, we've been doing all this stuff live, that schedule,

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where if you have, let's pick someone's talk.

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Oh, yeah, highlight.

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I think, oh, maybe it's the other way around.

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I need to put this stuff here first. Oh yeah, okay.

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So you'll notice here how if I add some JavaScript,

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it takes a look at what's in the URL.

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And if so, then it can highlight a specific thing

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using just, maybe CSS might be it.

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Actually, I think it's JavaScript setting the CSS style on it.

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But yeah, you can play around with CSS.

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See, this one has a slightly darker,

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slightly thicker background. So SVGs are great for that.

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And if you inspect it,

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which I don't think I have shared here,

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but if you inspect it, I will share my inspect.

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I have too many windows open,

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so I don't want to share my whole thing.

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But one of these, oh, I don't even know which, how do I find, okay,

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it's the developer tools window.

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Do I even have developer tools? Oh, I can't see it. OK.

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If you inspect the page on the developer thingy,

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then it will show the SVG element. Yeah.

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And unfortunately, I can't share it easily right now.

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Maybe just say inspect. Oh, this is actually, I think,

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how also the individual talks have current ones, right?

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So I just have this image over here,

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and then you just have that one,

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that specific talk styled differently.

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How did you generate this SVG,

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the one showing the schedule?

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Oh, okay, okay. Emacs. Book, book, book, book.

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Emacs publish, I think. Let me share it. Emacs conf pub.

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One of these windows. Okay, let's see.

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Slow down, look at all the windows.

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Okay, I'm just gonna share the whole screen.

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Screen two, no, screen one. All right, and okay.

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I think this is the one. Is it sharing my screen?

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It is not sharing my screen. I'm going to try this again.

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Okay. All right. So, the schedule. The schedule.

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This is the actual function

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that creates the SVG rectangles for the talks.

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Oops. My screen share ended. Let me do that again.

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All right, and as you can see,

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it's just a little bit of math for the X, the Y,

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we color it differently

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depending on whether I'm making the schedule for the public view.

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So we just, you know, do we do developer, development talk

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or general talk as colors,

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or if I want to color it for the backstage view,

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I can keep track of the talk's status.

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Anyway, so SDG track takes the track

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and all the talk information,

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and it makes all the little rectangles.

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And this is the thing that adds a little hover

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for the times and titles as well.

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So, Emacs's API for dealing with this is actually pretty good.

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Oh, and of course, I have a hook here that modifies it.

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You can just run through a different function,

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different functions to tweak it.

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So I could say, okay, color it in case my time constraints are,

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you know, not being met.

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And then I can paint about this somewhere.

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And the nice thing about this

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is it's actually, it's, you can, hang on a second, let me do this carefully.

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All right, here you go.

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It's super nice to be able to refer to it within Emacs itself

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because Emacs has SVG support.

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So this is, for example, the organizer view

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inside an org mode file. And it just has all those SVGs.

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It don't have the hover things,

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because it's just an image in it.

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But yeah, SVGs, Emacs, awesome. Oh, that's very cool.

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You're actually drawing the rectangles from scratch.

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It took a little bit of figuring out,

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especially since I realized

00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:49.679
I wanted horizontal on the wiki pages

00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:51.359
so that it fits on people's screens,

00:17:51.360 --> 00:17:56.039
but I wanted vertical in my organized review

00:17:56.040 --> 00:18:09.199
so that I don't have to keep tilting my head sideways.

00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.359
and this is the code for that.

00:18:12.360 --> 00:18:19.439
See, I'm just directly adding G nodes for groups

00:18:19.440 --> 00:18:23.199
or A nodes for the hyperlinks and rep as well.

00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:27.319
I think the SVG library also has functions

00:18:27.320 --> 00:18:31.079
for adding rectangles and things like that,

00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:32.359
but sometimes I vaguely remember

00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:34.999
sometimes you can't return the node that I'm expecting.

00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:40.559
So, it's okay to just use the DOM functions directly.

00:18:40.560 --> 00:18:46.079
And then the whole thing gets SVG printed afterwards.

00:18:46.080 --> 00:18:54.079
So I can just say SVG printed, and then it's good to go.

00:18:54.080 --> 00:18:57.719
Let me see. Actually, do I have SVG?

00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:05.679
Let's schedule for track SVG.

00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.799
It's a shame that you can't visually interact

00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:11.559
with parts of an SVG in Emacs the way you can in Emacs.

00:19:11.560 --> 00:19:16.799
Oh, some people have some interesting experiments with that.

00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:18.839
I haven't dug into it much,

00:19:18.840 --> 00:19:21.639
but people have figured out how to use the mouse events

00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:26.199
and then figure out what the, like there's LEC draw, right?

00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:30.159
So lecdraw is a package that lets you draw SVGs

00:19:30.160 --> 00:19:33.039
and you can drag things and whatever. So that's very cool.

00:19:33.040 --> 00:19:37.159
And there's also an org related package

00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:43.439
that lets you visualize your schedule as boxes.

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.639
I'd like, yeah, that's a thing also.

00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:46.919
So people have experimented

00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:49.439
with mouse interaction and it's cool,

00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:51.919
but I haven't had the brain space to do that yet,

00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.479
but it would be nice. Yeah, you're right.

00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.079
I remember using easy draw

00:19:58.080 --> 00:20:01.999
and being surprised at what it can do.

00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.119
The only thing I think I discovered

00:20:05.120 --> 00:20:10.279
is that it ends up creating lots of new SVGs,

00:20:10.280 --> 00:20:13.079
kind of the way that you do

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:14.959
when you show elements one by one,

00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:19.079
you are essentially creating one SVG for each state,

00:20:19.080 --> 00:20:24.439
one full SVG for each intermediate state of the presentation, let's say.

00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.479
That's kind of what ELEasyDraw does.

00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:30.839
And I thought that's not good for performance.

00:20:30.840 --> 00:20:33.039
And it is kind of on the slow side,

00:20:33.040 --> 00:20:37.359
if you compare it to like Inkscape or anything else.

00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:40.959
But yeah, what it can do is pretty amazing.

00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:44.559
you can dynamically modify an SVG object,

00:20:44.560 --> 00:20:48.399
and it will automatically get updated in Emacs,

00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:52.519
which is a technique that I use a lot in FFNS in subbed.

00:20:52.520 --> 00:20:57.559
So for example, if I have waveform show all in this,

00:20:57.560 --> 00:21:03.239
it will, like, it's very easy to just move one element, for example,

00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:08.519
or make an element larger or smaller.

00:21:08.520 --> 00:21:13.279
And that's the... It might be pretty efficient, I don't know,

00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:20.199
but I'm certainly not like writing it to disk each time and reloading it.

00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:25.519
Eric and I demoed in 2020 EmacsConf for Dungeon Mode Works,

00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:29.399
where we demonstrated, you know, showing parts of the map

00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:31.649
and then, you know, different characters

00:21:31.650 --> 00:21:33.839
have different abilities that show,

00:21:33.840 --> 00:21:36.599
that allow you to see different dungeon features.

00:21:36.600 --> 00:21:38.799
And then if your last character,

00:21:38.800 --> 00:21:42.719
you know, of that class or race dies,

00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.479
then you suddenly can't see

00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.759
secret doors or whatever anymore.

00:21:46.760 --> 00:21:48.719
And so just make that disappear

00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:50.559
between one turn and the next

00:21:50.560 --> 00:21:54.919
is just working with just simply update the SVG

00:21:54.920 --> 00:21:57.679
and there goes the screen. No, no, no bus, no bus.

00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:01.559
It's pretty awesome. So this is an example

00:22:01.560 --> 00:22:07.159
of how I'm using it to kind of show where we are in the, in the track.

00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:09.639
And then here's mouse, mouse interaction, right?

00:22:09.640 --> 00:22:21.359
I can change my timestamp right from there. Which is fine.

00:22:21.360 --> 00:22:28.079
So, I'm curious how this works exactly.

00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:31.799
To effect any kind of change in the SVG,

00:22:31.800 --> 00:22:36.239
you have to use the DOM library, right? Yes.

00:22:36.240 --> 00:22:39.319
Okay, so, but that means that it's going to be,

00:22:39.320 --> 00:22:43.639
anytime you make a change, it's going to read in the XML,

00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.999
convert it to an Elisp DOM, right?

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.919
And then you modify that tree.

00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:55.839
Yeah, you keep the DOM, like, well, in this case, for example,

00:22:55.840 --> 00:23:00.879
I'm actually constructing it using Emacs list objects directly.

00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:02.959
If you were working with an external SVG,

00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:05.199
you would parse it first, yes,

00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:07.919
using XML parse file or something like that.

00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:11.999
and then you would have it in memory.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.559
When you insert the image,

00:23:14.560 --> 00:23:18.519
you insert the list document object model that you have,

00:23:18.520 --> 00:23:21.199
and then any changes you make to that document object model

00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:25.519
automatically get updated in the image somehow.

00:23:25.520 --> 00:23:33.559
Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. I'll show you the code. Yeah.

00:23:33.560 --> 00:23:38.079
So I was under the impression

00:23:38.080 --> 00:23:40.096
that there's a round trip to XML involved

00:23:40.097 --> 00:23:42.298
to do anything like to go from displayed

00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:46.079
to in-memory to in-memory modified back

00:23:46.080 --> 00:23:47.839
to display all around trip.

00:23:47.840 --> 00:23:52.959
Yeah. So let me see where's my thing that changes it.

00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:59.079
So when it's the time.

00:23:59.080 --> 00:24:06.999
It's probably some kind of hook that I'm listening to here.

00:24:07.000 --> 00:24:12.879
Playback position hook. Oh, it's this update current bar.

00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.999
All right, so what update current bar does

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.319
is it moves the bar to the right place.

00:24:19.320 --> 00:24:21.159
And you see here how this SVG,

00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.719
I'm actually just reading it off the text property

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:28.279
so that I know which one is the current one in the overlay.

00:24:28.280 --> 00:24:31.399
I remove the old one, just the element.

00:24:31.400 --> 00:24:34.279
I don't have to mess around with the image.

00:24:34.280 --> 00:24:35.599
I removed the old one for some reason,

00:24:35.600 --> 00:24:36.839
just to make sure, I guess.

00:24:36.840 --> 00:24:38.879
You can actually just update the attribute on it.

00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:42.919
Oh, I think this is just so that I don't have to worry

00:24:42.920 --> 00:24:45.519
about whether there is one or there isn't.

00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:47.959
And then I add a bar at the right position

00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:52.519
and then it makes that little animated sweeping thingy.

00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:55.959
So you see how I'm not recreating the SVG at this point.

00:24:55.960 --> 00:25:02.559
I'm just getting it from the overlay.

00:25:02.560 --> 00:25:07.479
Yeah, that's very interesting. I wonder what it's doing.

00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.919
what it's actually doing under the hood when you run SVG removal.

00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:19.439
Yeah, I don't know, too. I think it's RSVG is tied

00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:32.039
into the display engine, so to speak. Yeah, that it is.

00:25:32.040 --> 00:25:33.919
But RSVG, the library,

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:39.199
can only deal with actual SVGs, right, like XML SVGs,

00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:43.119
but we're dealing with the ELISP DOM of an SVG.

00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:47.559
So the display engine can re-enter the LISP.

00:25:47.560 --> 00:25:49.519
I do know that the display engine

00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:51.839
can re-enter the LISP engine,

00:25:51.840 --> 00:25:53.599
so I think that may be the answer.

00:25:53.600 --> 00:25:58.759
Yeah, you can just SVG insert image the object itself.

00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:01.879
So here, for example, SVG create just creates,

00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:04.239
it actually just creates a DOM model.

00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:06.599
So this is Lisp, and it's not,

00:26:06.600 --> 00:26:09.079
it doesn't get printed to string representation or anything.

00:26:09.080 --> 00:26:13.239
And then you can SVG insert image,

00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:15.159
or you can set the display and, you know,

00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:20.719
and use pass it like as an SVG image.

00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.599
SVG image gives you an image object

00:26:22.600 --> 00:26:24.679
if you want to do the like the regular

00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:31.199
sort of display thingy. Actually, that one says it turns it

00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.399
into a string representation.

00:26:34.400 --> 00:26:36.719
Or at least maybe that's just how it gets retrained.

00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:38.559
Anyhow, some kind of magic happens,

00:26:38.560 --> 00:26:39.919
but I don't have to worry about it.

00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:44.119
It just stays on my side. Yeah, but I was thinking about it

00:26:44.120 --> 00:26:49.599
because I expect that if it's converting to XML all the time, every time you make a change,

00:26:49.600 --> 00:26:52.119
then that's going to be the bottleneck

00:26:52.120 --> 00:26:58.119
for any kind of heavy interactive SVG editing or modification in Emacs.

00:26:58.120 --> 00:27:01.199
The kind that ELEasyDraw does.

00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:03.839
But maybe if we make it compelling enough,

00:27:03.840 --> 00:27:07.279
then the folks upstream can say, all right,

00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:10.239
like the way that JSON got a lot faster.

00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:13.359
Who knows? Maybe we can get that to be faster too. Yeah.

00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:19.199
I see a lot of potential for better UIs in Emacs

00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:22.719
with using SVGs. Yeah.

00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:26.319
Nicolas Rougier has all those experiments, right?

00:27:26.320 --> 00:27:30.159
Yeah, but all of those, I think, are bound by the limitations

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.599
of how deeply SVGs are embedded in the display engine,

00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:36.359
because that's kind of what we're discussing.

00:27:36.360 --> 00:27:38.479
We want to avoid going to XML,

00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.479
I mean, going from XML to Elisp DOM

00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:44.839
to modified Elisp DOM back to XML.

00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:50.079
We want to avoid that round trip. Yeah, for sure.

00:27:50.080 --> 00:28:04.799
Or make that as fast as possible, yeah.

00:28:04.800 --> 00:28:11.919
Does anyone else have anything they want to share?

00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:13.919
I've always got stuff I can share,

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:17.639
but I pretty happily defer. I've already seen what I made.

00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:28.759
Karthik? Oh, I'm a fly on a wall here. I'm not.

00:28:28.760 --> 00:28:32.199
Okay. I didn't come in with the intent to share anything.

00:28:32.200 --> 00:28:34.239
Yeah. How about you, Sacha?

00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:37.999
Do you have other stuff you haven't shown off recently?

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:39.839
Aside from all the panicking

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:42.599
about getting EmacsConf together this year?

00:28:42.600 --> 00:28:45.399
I just wanted to bring it up.

00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:50.359
Yeah, let's see, what do I have in my recent, like, fiddled with?

00:28:50.360 --> 00:28:53.999
So I have a project called...

00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.879
I have a project called Ufta, which is a little bit fun.

00:28:56.880 --> 00:29:00.159
Let me pull it up here before I share.

00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:08.959
You can see my messy, messy desktop. Okay, there it is.

00:29:08.960 --> 00:29:21.519
And that's supposed to want a shell. Probably that one.

00:29:21.520 --> 00:29:29.119
And we'll just bootroot. keeping in mind that graphics

00:29:29.120 --> 00:29:33.399
is going to end in about five minutes. Ooh, perfect.

00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:38.959
That'll keep me from from being my normal long-winded self.

00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:47.239
Have you already made contact with Emmanuel? I was not.

00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:50.159
Okay, I'm going to quickly do a check in.

00:29:50.160 --> 00:30:00.119
Okay, sounds good. Did you hear back from him?

00:30:00.120 --> 00:30:01.039
Assume that's a yes.

00:30:01.040 --> 00:30:04.399
All right, I'll go ahead and share screen here

00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:08.879
and just take a look, a very brief look at this.

00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:16.719
Assuming I can present. I had a question for Sacha.

00:30:16.720 --> 00:30:22.399
I had a question for Sacha and you, Corbin.

00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:28.759
Hello. Yeah, you're good. Go for it. Yeah, yeah.

00:30:28.760 --> 00:30:33.319
So in past years, in the EmacsConf,

00:30:33.320 --> 00:30:36.799
there was a talk by someone,

00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:40.999
usually John Wheatley, or I think Philip last year,

00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:44.079
about new developments in Emacs.

00:30:44.080 --> 00:30:48.679
Yes, and that is kind of at the whim

00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:50.079
of the Emacs developers,

00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:56.919
whether that is included in the in the conference.

00:30:56.920 --> 00:30:59.679
It's kind of up to the, you know, how busy folks are

00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.879
and whether somebody can follow up the time to prepare it.

00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:07.119
I see. Yeah, I noticed that there wasn't one for this year.

00:31:07.120 --> 00:31:09.999
And I know of at least one improvement

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.359
or one change to Emacs.

00:31:12.360 --> 00:31:17.559
It's small, but I'm guessing it's very crucial

00:31:17.560 --> 00:31:20.359
for a certain class of Emacs users.

00:31:20.360 --> 00:31:24.239
And I can talk about that, just that one thing.

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:29.719
But you can, you can, you can go right.

00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.599
So I can't share anything and we've got about one minute.

00:31:32.600 --> 00:31:39.719
So have that. Okay. Um, so the change is that, uh,

00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:41.919
in the development version of Emacs,

00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:46.919
sorry, child frames are now supported

00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:53.679
in terminal in the terminal.

00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:56.519
And I suspect that not many people know about it yet,

00:31:56.520 --> 00:32:03.839
but basically this means something like Corfu is going to work fine

00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:05.479
when you're running Emacs in a terminal,

00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:14.159
as well as pause frames or anything that shows like a little pop-up window

00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:19.159
that previously did not work in Terminal Emacs.

00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:27.519
That's it. That's the update. Cool.

00:32:27.520 --> 00:32:29.359
Okay, there I have a share screen button.

00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:31.999
We'll see if I think we're just about to cut away,

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:34.919
but I'll go ahead and see if I can get this going.

00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:36.679
I'll just share my whole screen

00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:39.599
and this will be a little ugly as it comes in.

00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:44.359
So this is a project that I think is a little bit fun.

00:32:44.360 --> 00:32:47.519
It's called Oopda. And basically what this does,

00:32:47.520 --> 00:32:49.759
you can see it on my source site,

00:32:49.760 --> 00:32:55.159
that's sr.ht tilde mplscorewin slash Oopda.

00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:59.599
O-F-D-A, and this is a very simple approach

00:32:59.600 --> 00:33:04.639
to using an org file as a replacement for SQLite.

00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:12.239
It's very simple, but it does support like a dot style path and notation.

00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:16.319
So you can get at deeply nested data

00:33:16.320 --> 00:33:19.159
and just gives a little,

00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:24.159
there's a shell script wrapper that comes with it.

00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:26.319
All right.

00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:32.759
Theoretically, this is the Q&A for the graphics talk.

00:33:32.760 --> 00:33:38.079
Oops, I have to unmute over here. Sorry.

00:33:38.080 --> 00:33:52.999
All right, I had a little audio bleed through,

00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:02.399
my apologies, can you still hear me?

00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:03.719
All right, I'm gonna guess,

00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.759
because I still see us live on the screen

00:34:05.760 --> 00:34:12.839
that we're still live. All right, so I'll just press on.

00:34:12.840 --> 00:34:18.599
So what we're looking at here is a project called Upta.

00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:21.239
Here's the Emacs Lisp source port.

00:34:21.240 --> 00:34:23.199
You can see it's not real impressive

00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:24.759
even with all of its boilerplate.

00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:27.399
It's under 200 lines of code.

00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:30.599
And this is kind of a proof of concept,

00:34:30.600 --> 00:34:34.999
giving us the ability to use a org.org file

00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:38.279
as a flat file database. The intention here is to get

00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:40.439
a kind of transition from SQLite,

00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:44.239
which is using a flat text file as a database,

00:34:44.240 --> 00:34:48.879
to being able to have more of a literate database

00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:52.759
where we can intermix documentation about the data

00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:54.119
with the data itself,

00:34:54.120 --> 00:34:57.599
and then by giving a path on the command line.

00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:02.199
I'll go back to the README, just take a look at that.

00:35:02.200 --> 00:35:05.239
And you can see there's a couple of kind of examples here

00:35:05.240 --> 00:35:11.319
where we're, here we would be querying a path.

00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:15.479
We can also provide a value

00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:20.039
and that'll set data into the file.

00:35:20.040 --> 00:35:23.119
It also has an optional first parameter

00:35:23.120 --> 00:35:26.319
to specify the specific org file by default.

00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:29.399
It looks for a file called data.org.

00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:34.279
And of course that can be used inside Emacs as well,

00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.799
although the value of that may be a little bit limited

00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:39.799
compared to more sophisticated

00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:41.799
technologies like org-element.

00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:43.839
This is not an implementation

00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:47.159
that mirrors all of org-element

00:35:47.160 --> 00:35:50.079
or any of the more complex functionality of org.

00:35:50.080 --> 00:35:52.919
It's really as simple as possible proof of concept

00:35:52.920 --> 00:35:57.679
to just to be able to kind of work

00:35:57.680 --> 00:35:59.559
with the data inside an org file

00:35:59.560 --> 00:36:01.679
and get it back out on the command line.

00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:07.839
So we'll see if we can make it work here.

00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.479
Corwin, could you increase the font size?

00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:27.199
I surely will. All right. How's that?

00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:30.999
That's my picture. Yeah. Okay. Cool.

00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:39.159
So, let's see if we do have a, well, we can probably make it.

00:36:39.160 --> 00:37:00.839
Let's do this.

00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:05.159
All right, and then in theory, this just works.

00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:42.199
So we'll cut.

00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:45.840
So we'll just create a data file called data.org.

00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:50.239
Make sure that works. Looks reasonable.

00:37:50.240 --> 00:38:13.079
Let's try adding some data to it. Hmm, not so happy.

00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:17.559
Okay, let's try it the hard way.

00:38:17.560 --> 00:38:21.079
I'll come back over here to my usage

00:38:21.080 --> 00:38:23.199
and we'll just try running it.

00:38:23.200 --> 00:38:37.319
Is Emacs, is finding Emacs really the issue?

00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:41.199
It seems to me it's not, it's not liking my path.

00:38:41.200 --> 00:38:44.079
It's not finding out that I do EO and PWD.

00:38:44.080 --> 00:38:49.519
It wants it to be on the log. I see.

00:38:49.520 --> 00:38:54.119
So I may have to even mess with that further,

00:38:54.120 --> 00:38:55.359
but we'll just try it.

00:38:55.360 --> 00:39:04.839
So this should retrieve the value if it works.

00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:17.119
Oh, and let's take a take a simple

00:39:17.120 --> 00:39:47.319
Yeah, add-to-list takes a symbol.

00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:52.639
We're going to have issues with bash quoting,

00:39:52.640 --> 00:39:58.559
so you should escape the quoting side.

00:39:58.560 --> 00:40:27.719
Gotcha. You're kidding.

00:40:27.720 --> 00:40:36.560
I'm not letting go. Whoa. That might work.

00:40:36.600 --> 00:41:02.159
I got my parents right. Never demo live. How exciting. OK.

00:41:02.160 --> 00:41:13.079
Without batch, though, we may not get our output. OK.

00:41:13.080 --> 00:41:20.320
Well, that's as far as I'm going to take it.

00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.959
I should have prepped a demo environment.

00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:26.879
I wasn't really prepared to demo. No worries.

00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:30.719
Couple of questions about this feature.

00:41:30.720 --> 00:41:37.799
The first question is, do you use it? I do use it, yeah.

00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.279
I should have gotten onto the environment

00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:45.599
where I'm using it. It's a little messy.

00:41:45.600 --> 00:41:47.079
It gets into another project

00:41:47.080 --> 00:41:48.839
that's way too complicated to get into.

00:41:48.840 --> 00:41:53.079
Yeah, but what kinds of things do you use it for?

00:41:53.080 --> 00:41:56.999
It's sort of hard to answer

00:41:57.000 --> 00:41:59.159
that without getting into my other project,

00:41:59.160 --> 00:42:02.919
but essentially I've got a web development tool chain

00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:05.759
that is kind of a web-based REPL

00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.919
that is kind of a literate compute environment, if you will,

00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:13.119
allowing me to use a bunch of virtual machines

00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:19.079
as one big computer. That project is called Ghost Wheel.

00:42:19.080 --> 00:42:23.719
And so in order to show off the homepage,

00:42:23.720 --> 00:42:30.359
So on this page, you can see the list of machines,

00:42:30.360 --> 00:42:34.759
and then you'll also see there's these state indicators.

00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:38.439
And right now, as a matter of fact,

00:42:38.440 --> 00:42:41.239
what I've been hacking on

00:42:41.240 --> 00:42:44.879
is trying to get support for org tables.

00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.759
Right now, I support only changing all of the data

00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.959
within some heading, subheading, or whatever.

00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:55.079
What I'd like to be able to do is specify,

00:42:55.080 --> 00:43:01.079
using org table fm syntax, the particular row column.

00:43:01.080 --> 00:43:03.839
So find a particular named table,

00:43:03.840 --> 00:43:06.559
find a particular row, you know,

00:43:06.560 --> 00:43:08.639
column one, you know, row two, column one,

00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:11.919
and then set the value from the command.

00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:18.359
Currently, I just use it for very simple stuff.

00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:20.519
I don't really want to show that off.

00:43:20.520 --> 00:43:23.599
I've got another page that lists all of the DNS names

00:43:23.600 --> 00:43:26.159
that are associated that are hosted on Ghostwheel.

00:43:26.160 --> 00:43:29.319
And so I use that to add items to the list.

00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:40.439
Does it make sense? Yeah, it sounds useful.

00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:47.279
So one thing that I would like,

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.479
I guess it's easy enough to write,

00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:58.799
but is a tool exactly like this

00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:03.839
where I can query my org files from the command line?

00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:06.879
Yeah, that's exactly what it says.

00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:14.599
Yeah, but it's going to be more

00:44:14.600 --> 00:44:23.319
like a database query where, you know, I say select, select all headings where, you know,

00:44:23.320 --> 00:44:27.279
that contain this string or that have this tag, right?

00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:38.519
The kinds of things that you can do with org-ql from outside, from inside Emacs, right?

00:44:38.520 --> 00:44:41.119
To be able to do those from the command line with,

00:44:41.120 --> 00:44:48.279
I'm going to invoke SQL here, like SQL SELECT statements,

00:44:48.280 --> 00:44:50.519
but it doesn't have to be that syntax, right?

00:44:50.520 --> 00:44:52.519
Just that capability.

00:44:52.520 --> 00:44:57.079
Yeah, I can see that being useful as a command line tool.

00:44:57.080 --> 00:44:59.399
And I don't even care about write,

00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:02.399
like the ability to write or manipulate the file.

00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:11.799
Just query. the command line that sounds yeah yeah exactly

00:45:11.800 --> 00:45:15.159
to be able to dig a piece of data out of an org file as well

00:45:15.160 --> 00:45:18.359
for my purpose it's very useful to be able to replace it

00:45:18.360 --> 00:45:20.999
because then i can deal with submit the form you know

00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.999
and that might be like a sign up form

00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:29.159
and then i just add the user add up an entry into the org file

00:45:29.160 --> 00:45:35.239
for that user right what it doesn't do is a relational data

00:45:35.240 --> 00:45:40.559
So everything, it's essentially a document data store.

00:45:40.560 --> 00:45:53.959
Like a Mongo kind of. True. So over on IRC, ScrewLisp asks,

00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:57.279
what does it mean to query an ARC file?

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.679
Is the data in a table? Is it in an ELISP nested list view

00:46:01.680 --> 00:46:06.559
of a table that has a name in ARC?

00:46:06.560 --> 00:46:10.639
And my answer to that is that if you ever used RQL,

00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:14.199
written by Alpha Papa,

00:46:14.200 --> 00:46:18.039
then that's the kind of thing I'm talking about.

00:46:18.040 --> 00:46:23.119
So, you query based on one of a set of attributes.

00:46:23.120 --> 00:46:30.599
And these attributes are anything that's recognized by ARC.

00:46:30.600 --> 00:46:35.239
For example, the to-do status, the dates,

00:46:35.240 --> 00:46:40.399
the outline path, the headings, a full text search.

00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:43.479
There are several more.

00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.079
The presence or absence of certain properties.

00:46:46.080 --> 00:46:50.879
using any combination of those if you want to dig down

00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:52.759
and find some data in an art file.

00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:56.079
That's the kind of query I'm talking about.

00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:58.239
It is somewhat equivalent

00:46:58.240 --> 00:47:02.359
to being able to write SQL queries

00:47:02.360 --> 00:47:09.719
where you match on things just for your art files.

00:47:09.720 --> 00:47:21.199
Okay. I think we might have figured out our problem.

00:47:21.200 --> 00:47:38.839
It was DOS encoding. See if that works.

00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:47.879
I switched the development track over

00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:53.559
to just watching the gen track since I couldn't find it.

00:47:53.560 --> 00:47:57.359
Also, Eludo wants to mention

00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:00.799
the Emacs Carnival theme for December.

00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:02.359
Yes, the people of Emacs,

00:48:02.360 --> 00:48:04.119
of which you are all very awesome.

00:48:04.120 --> 00:48:05.519
Thank you so much for your patience.

00:48:05.520 --> 00:48:08.159
Today has been very interesting.

00:48:08.160 --> 00:48:13.359
But yes, at some point we can show that too.

00:48:13.360 --> 00:48:17.199
And we can basically wrap up anytime we like

00:48:17.200 --> 00:48:19.279
or hang out for as much time as we like also.

00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:23.279
okay so this is okay at least i got

00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:24.519
as far as a working demo here

00:48:24.520 --> 00:48:26.439
so now you can kind of see what's going on um

00:48:26.440 --> 00:48:31.599
and i'll just wrap that into uh

00:48:31.600 --> 00:48:40.959
into a little prettier output

00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:53.159
And you can see that it modified the value.

00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:59.479
So it's pretty darn simple.

00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:06.159
Again, all it's doing is completely replacing all of this content

00:49:06.160 --> 00:49:11.679
with whatever new value is given as its final argument

00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:14.879
after naming the data path.

00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:23.439
So the one refinement we can do just to get a little more complex example going.

00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:32.759
We'll deepen our structure a little bit. And try that.

00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:38.799
So here now we'll say test two.

00:49:38.800 --> 00:49:47.639
And we can take a look at the data file

00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:51.599
and see that it has adjusted that

00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:55.959
because test2 was completely unique, that worked fine.

00:49:55.960 --> 00:50:00.519
If that were not the case,

00:50:00.520 --> 00:50:02.599
we would have had to specify the path

00:50:02.600 --> 00:50:17.679
using dot notation like this. And that's pretty much it.

00:50:17.680 --> 00:50:20.759
It took me much longer to figure out

00:50:20.760 --> 00:50:23.759
why it wasn't just working than it did to demo it.

00:50:23.760 --> 00:50:29.239
And again, what I really like about this program,

00:50:29.240 --> 00:50:31.639
besides the fact that I find it quite useful

00:50:31.640 --> 00:50:34.639
to just be able to stuff values into an org file

00:50:34.640 --> 00:50:36.439
from the command line using shell script,

00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:41.279
is what I really like about this

00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:45.999
is that it's a whopping 190 lines of code,

00:50:46.000 --> 00:50:47.919
including all the boilerplate.

00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:55.759
And I will share the project into the chat.

00:50:55.760 --> 00:51:02.199
So, Corwin, you're not using org-element for this, are you?

00:51:02.200 --> 00:51:06.799
No. Yeah, that's a great question.

00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.839
Let's just dig a little into the code here.

00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:21.039
Or maybe it would be more fun to actually

00:51:21.040 --> 00:51:26.719
So the only real requires here, I do use cl-lib mostly.

00:51:26.720 --> 00:51:33.159
I'm directly using the macros from org.

00:51:33.160 --> 00:51:36.879
Particularly, I'm extremely fond of this function.

00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:41.279
I'd love to see this just promoted to promoted

00:51:41.280 --> 00:51:43.559
somewhere deeper into Emacs proper,

00:51:43.560 --> 00:51:47.639
so that I don't have to load all of the org macros

00:51:47.640 --> 00:51:50.239
to get to this particularly useful one,

00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:54.679
which just tells me whether ignoring whitespace

00:51:54.680 --> 00:51:59.639
a string has any characters, has greater than zero length.

00:51:59.640 --> 00:52:04.439
Isn't that just string blank B?

00:52:04.440 --> 00:52:08.999
So this is a little different.

00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:14.799
This deals with... I may struggle to remember the details,

00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:20.999
and it's possible that the non-org specific version

00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:23.519
has even been improved or I didn't use it correctly,

00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:29.479
but I believe my experience was it didn't handle new lines, for example, quite the same way.

00:52:29.480 --> 00:52:38.519
So getting into what this actually does,

00:52:38.520 --> 00:52:43.879
most of the program is finding the relevant part of the file.

00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:49.079
You'll see that we start out by doing a depth-based search,

00:52:49.080 --> 00:52:51.959
capture the value that we're looking for.

00:52:51.960 --> 00:52:58.119
And then finally, we widen the buffer

00:52:58.120 --> 00:53:01.799
and keep handling the case where we might be being called

00:53:01.800 --> 00:53:05.839
from within Emacs in a narrowed buffer.

00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:11.079
This is another what should be documented at the top.

00:53:11.080 --> 00:53:13.919
So that is obviously going to load org.

00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:21.399
Just double-check that. Yeah, it is going to load org.

00:53:21.400 --> 00:53:30.039
And we can see that because it didn't find the function.

00:53:30.040 --> 00:53:40.399
until I loaded Org and then it did when I did C-h f

00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:44.999
to get definition of a function.

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:51.719
So, widen the buffer and then I just start looking for the search.

00:53:51.720 --> 00:53:55.399
You can see I'm doing simple regular expression based searches here.

00:53:55.400 --> 00:54:01.719
Looking for lines, ultimately, that start with a star.

00:54:01.720 --> 00:54:05.119
That was a little simpler format

00:54:05.120 --> 00:54:07.759
that didn't quite work out.

00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:25.719
So I'm searching for, here this is a little tricky,

00:54:25.720 --> 00:54:28.839
but I'm searching for a number of stars

00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:30.839
equal to the depth that I want.

00:54:30.840 --> 00:54:33.439
The depth that I want being calculated

00:54:33.440 --> 00:54:38.039
based on the number of dots that were in the query string.

00:54:38.040 --> 00:54:47.159
from there, you know, kind of skipping some stuff, right?

00:54:47.160 --> 00:54:49.599
Once we find our starting position,

00:54:49.600 --> 00:54:53.239
then we're going to have to find the end of that,

00:54:53.240 --> 00:54:57.679
the section that we're going to read or replace.

00:54:57.680 --> 00:55:12.959
Text a tiny bit smaller. So I checked org-string nwp,

00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:20.079
and it's the same as string blank p.

00:55:20.080 --> 00:55:26.319
exactly the same code or the same result?

00:55:26.320 --> 00:55:30.399
No, it's the same result. Well, it's the same check,

00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:34.519
but string blank p will return a match object,

00:55:34.520 --> 00:55:35.999
like a string match object,

00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:39.119
whereas the org version will return the string itself

00:55:39.120 --> 00:55:46.159
if it finds a match, as in if it's blank.

00:55:46.160 --> 00:55:48.319
I don't remember that.

00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:51.079
As a Boolean check, they are the same.

00:55:51.080 --> 00:55:54.159
If you use it as, you know, is it blank or not.

00:55:54.160 --> 00:56:02.679
So, um, yeah, I've talked for way longer.

00:56:02.680 --> 00:56:04.119
I thought I literally thought

00:56:04.120 --> 00:56:05.319
this would be a five minute thing.

00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:08.399
I'm not sure if there are any questions on it,

00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:10.239
but just to simply answer your question.

00:56:10.240 --> 00:56:11.719
No, it doesn't use org element.

00:56:11.720 --> 00:56:23.759
This is pure regex based work.

00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:26.919
So, the advantage of not using... Right.

00:56:26.920 --> 00:56:32.679
So, the advantage of not using arg element

00:56:32.680 --> 00:56:37.439
is that you don't have to load arg or arg element, right?

00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.039
And so, it's going to be faster.

00:56:39.040 --> 00:56:45.359
And it's going to be faster both because you don't have to load arg element

00:56:45.360 --> 00:56:51.079
and because you don't have to run arg element, like the arg parser.

00:56:51.080 --> 00:56:52.879
But on the other hand,

00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:58.439
you end up loading all of org anyway.

00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:02.679
So at that point, it might just be better

00:57:02.680 --> 00:57:05.039
to use org element because it's more robust.

00:57:05.040 --> 00:57:07.919
For example, if you have a bunch of leading stars

00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:09.959
inside a source block or something,

00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:11.599
you don't want to misclassify that.

00:57:11.600 --> 00:57:16.639
Matter of fact, I believe I had to do some flossing with it

00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:18.879
to deal with not just that,

00:57:18.880 --> 00:57:21.439
but drawers and things like that.

00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:25.879
right yeah so at the end of the day

00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:28.039
that was just an extra 10 or 20 characters

00:57:28.040 --> 00:57:31.039
in the regular expression so i just shrugged and wrote them

00:57:31.040 --> 00:57:36.799
you can see there are a number of i

00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:40.279
i happen to like writing regular expressions

00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:42.479
and find them relatively readable so

00:57:42.480 --> 00:57:46.719
So it didn't bother me doing that.

00:57:46.720 --> 00:57:49.239
I've also done a bunch of work with org-element

00:57:49.240 --> 00:57:51.439
with the dungeon project,

00:57:51.440 --> 00:57:53.759
which of course uses that extensively

00:57:53.760 --> 00:57:57.079
to pull data out of tables and so on.

00:57:57.080 --> 00:58:01.319
And indeed, I think that may ultimately be my solution.

00:58:01.320 --> 00:58:06.199
I've been kind of distracted on a side quest

00:58:06.200 --> 00:58:09.959
to improve the org-table-fm parser.

00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:14.279
There's a post on my blog about the work that I've done there,

00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:19.359
and recently started talking to Ihor,

00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:20.839
the new org maintainer,

00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:27.579
who took over in the last year or so from Bastien.

00:58:27.580 --> 00:58:32.159
Just about what it would take to pick that up,

00:58:32.160 --> 00:58:34.279
or at least get it to a point

00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:35.679
where somebody else could work on it.

00:58:35.680 --> 00:58:39.599
It's pretty dense right now.

00:58:39.600 --> 00:58:59.919
So this thing is a bit of a monster,

00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:01.799
but at the end of the day,

00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:06.919
our goal is to extend the syntax,

00:59:06.920 --> 00:59:12.519
is to be able to use this Org Table FM syntax

00:59:12.520 --> 00:59:14.439
in other contexts.

00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:18.519
So if you haven't looked at board table FM,

00:59:18.520 --> 00:59:21.399
these I bar or these I markers

00:59:21.400 --> 00:59:26.039
are telling us to look for the table separator.

00:59:26.040 --> 00:59:29.759
So positioning based on the location of a table separator.

00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:34.439
I find that a little bit brittle

00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:38.679
just because it's really easy to go in and decide,

00:59:38.680 --> 00:59:42.919
oh, it'll look better with an additional line separator in there.

00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:48.039
And then all of these formulas break everywhere.

00:59:48.040 --> 00:59:49.919
So it would be a little more fun

00:59:49.920 --> 00:59:53.399
to have at least variables in there.

00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.159
And that's kind of part of the scope.

00:59:56.160 --> 01:00:04.119
If we look, and here you get kind of a hint

01:00:04.120 --> 01:00:06.639
of the new syntax I'd like to support,

01:00:06.640 --> 01:00:12.559
things like $star, $underscore.

01:00:12.560 --> 01:00:17.559
Keyword it's it's probably a half-hour talk

01:00:17.560 --> 01:00:20.879
just to get into what every single one of these would do

01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:26.319
But this post does does give some some context of that

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:35.679
And more importantly there is a as a complete test program that

01:00:35.680 --> 01:00:39.159
Worked the last time I was playing with it

01:00:39.160 --> 01:00:43.959
And this gives you complete examples

01:00:43.960 --> 01:00:48.479
of all the syntax that the work in progress does currently support.

01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:52.799
You'll see some of these items are commented out.

01:00:52.800 --> 01:00:54.359
Those aren't supported yet

01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:56.119
and before I would implement them now,

01:00:56.120 --> 01:01:04.359
especially now that we're talking in terms of trying to take org itself this direction, you know,

01:01:04.360 --> 01:01:13.539
of kind of beefing up the the TableFM format parsing

01:01:13.540 --> 01:01:16.999
so that it could be used in other contexts besides

01:01:17.000 --> 01:01:19.640
specifically within a formula.

01:01:19.640 --> 01:01:26.839
I wouldn't want to add features

01:01:26.840 --> 01:01:33.399
to it without discussing those.

01:01:33.400 --> 01:01:37.639
So this is just a simple, basically a literate test file

01:01:37.640 --> 01:01:40.439
if you want to call it that.

01:01:40.440 --> 01:01:43.239
The perhaps key improvement here

01:01:43.240 --> 01:01:49.799
is naming all of the different capture groups.

01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.119
which just, if you're working

01:01:52.120 --> 01:01:55.919
with really huge regular expressions, which this is,

01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:58.839
let me just make sure the whole pagex is right in here

01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:00.599
so we can see it, yeah.

01:02:00.600 --> 01:02:05.959
So here's the actual rewrite, scale it a little bit,

01:02:05.960 --> 01:02:14.479
so you can see it's kind of a monster.

01:02:14.480 --> 01:02:27.639
And that's all using Rx.

01:02:27.640 --> 01:02:29.519
So hopefully that looks pretty familiar.

01:02:29.520 --> 01:02:35.039
Dollars for specifying a column, at sign to specify a row.

01:02:35.040 --> 01:02:43.959
And we also have the keys.

01:02:43.960 --> 01:02:58.559
Anybody else want to show and tell?

01:02:58.560 --> 01:03:01.399
We're going to cut over to the automated introduction

01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:07.799
for the Saturday closing remarks in like four minutes.

01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:15.599
Oh, but quick, quick, quick mention of the Emacs Carnival.

01:03:15.600 --> 01:03:20.559
So the Emacs Carnival is a shared blogging theme.

01:03:20.560 --> 01:03:25.079
where lots of people write about a specific theme,

01:03:25.080 --> 01:03:26.119
and then if you write about it,

01:03:26.120 --> 01:03:28.239
you can send your link to whoever's hosting the carnival.

01:03:28.240 --> 01:03:31.679
And it's a great way to discover other people's cool stuff.

01:03:31.680 --> 01:03:35.679
So if I take presenter, hang on a second, take presenter.

01:03:35.680 --> 01:03:39.519
Oh, actually, haha, I know,

01:03:39.520 --> 01:03:41.959
I'm going to make Elladom present it.

01:03:41.960 --> 01:03:47.199
Haha, you are now in charge. Okay, take it away.

01:03:47.200 --> 01:03:49.959
So I've been using Emacs for like 46 years now,

01:03:49.960 --> 01:03:53.359
back to TECO Emacs. And as I just said in the chat,

01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:56.319
I've found that the people who use Emacs

01:03:56.320 --> 01:03:59.400
tend to be interesting people in many different ways.

01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:03.199
And so this month, I'm just saying, let's give a shout out

01:04:03.200 --> 01:04:06.399
to some of the interesting people we've met along the way.

01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:09.239
And including some of the people

01:04:09.240 --> 01:04:10.159
that are putting on this conference

01:04:10.160 --> 01:04:11.959
are some of the most interesting

01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:13.439
and helpful people I've ever met.

01:04:13.440 --> 01:04:27.919
So thank you. You're very kind. Thank you.

01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:30.679
I'll say more than that. Maybe I will.

01:04:30.680 --> 01:04:34.279
I completely agree with you and I couldn't agree more.

01:04:34.280 --> 01:04:38.839
I think that's how Sacha and Amin and Leo

01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:40.559
really dragged me into this,

01:04:40.560 --> 01:04:42.319
you know, into being a volunteer.

01:04:42.320 --> 01:04:44.599
And I really, I'm sure we'll talk

01:04:44.600 --> 01:04:46.039
about this in the closing remarks,

01:04:46.040 --> 01:04:50.199
but I can't recommend volunteering for this project enough.

01:04:50.200 --> 01:04:54.319
It's just so fun to talk backstage

01:04:54.320 --> 01:05:00.679
with the presenters I don't know.

01:05:00.680 --> 01:05:11.439
It's an extremely engaging community.

01:05:11.440 --> 01:05:12.759
It's really thoughtful.

01:05:12.760 --> 01:05:15.039
I like the way y'all are so patient and awesome

01:05:15.040 --> 01:05:19.439
and I can be just quietly having my little freak out here

01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:20.679
and everyone's fine

01:05:20.680 --> 01:05:23.879
and will even help debug things live as needed.

01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:45.499
So this is all good.

01:05:45.500 --> 01:05:48.119
Anyway, so if people want to participate,

01:05:48.120 --> 01:05:49.919
you basically write a blog post.

01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:53.159
If you don't have a blog yet,

01:05:53.160 --> 01:05:56.959
there are any number of packages in Emacs,

01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:58.479
as well as web-based services,

01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:02.039
but really, you can get something going with Emacs.

01:06:02.040 --> 01:06:05.839
or exporting to HTML and maybe even figure out RSS,

01:06:05.840 --> 01:06:08.279
or you can use a static site generator like Hugo,

01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:10.999
or you can find, if you can set up WordPress,

01:06:11.000 --> 01:06:12.119
that's another way to do it.

01:06:12.120 --> 01:06:15.079
Or you can email me your thing and I'll post it on my blog

01:06:15.080 --> 01:06:20.239
and let me know how you want to be credited for it.

01:06:20.240 --> 01:06:23.559
Anyway, so you can share your story

01:06:23.560 --> 01:06:26.879
or share your story about somebody else's story

01:06:26.880 --> 01:06:35.319
and celebrate Emacs community.

01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.079
And we can send it to George also.

01:06:39.080 --> 01:06:48.399
We'll then make links in that blog post.

01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:50.199
And on the subject of community,

01:06:50.200 --> 01:06:53.439
I also heartily recommend the IRC community on Emacs.

01:06:53.440 --> 01:06:55.919
Pound Emacs is another one of those things

01:06:55.920 --> 01:06:58.279
that I just personally can't get enough of,

01:06:58.280 --> 01:07:05.079
and I hear a lot of stories about just how it's helped people.

01:07:05.080 --> 01:07:09.119
All right, we are now having the automated introduction

01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:12.759
and then it's going to rejoin over here very soon.

01:07:12.760 --> 01:07:22.439
Hang on a second. Wow, that's going.

01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:34.399
Saturday close and let's arrange our screen nicely.

01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:38.279
All right, we made it to the end of the first day! Woohoo!

01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:40.399
Thank you for joining us

01:07:40.400 --> 01:07:42.959
for the first day of EmacsConf 2025.

01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:44.919
Feel free to spread the word

01:07:44.920 --> 01:07:48.479
because there is still another day of fun talks tomorrow.

01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:51.399
So hashtag EmacsConf and hashtag Emacs.

01:07:51.400 --> 01:07:54.239
If you do hashtag Emacs on Macedon

01:07:54.240 --> 01:07:58.239
or Blue Sky or other places, we'll probably find it.

01:07:58.240 --> 01:08:01.759
Or if I don't, you can just let me know also.

01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:04.039
The prerecorded talks should be up

01:08:04.040 --> 01:08:05.639
on the talk pages already.

01:08:05.640 --> 01:08:09.119
The live talks, we'll probably actually get them up

01:08:09.120 --> 01:08:11.079
within the next week or two.

01:08:11.080 --> 01:08:13.359
I think they've already started processing,

01:08:13.360 --> 01:08:15.479
so I just had to sit down and then work with

01:08:15.480 --> 01:08:18.399
our wonderful army of volunteer captioners

01:08:18.400 --> 01:08:20.119
to get them all nicely captioned.

01:08:20.120 --> 01:08:22.439
But anyway, so the prerecorded talks

01:08:22.440 --> 01:08:23.759
are also up on YouTube,

01:08:23.760 --> 01:08:25.719
and I will eventually also upload them

01:08:25.720 --> 01:08:29.239
to TubeNix, which is a PeerTube instance.

01:08:29.240 --> 01:08:31.239
We will work on extracting live talks.

01:08:31.240 --> 01:08:32.119
If you'd like updates,

01:08:32.120 --> 01:08:35.319
please subscribe to the EmacsConf Discuss mailing list.

01:08:35.320 --> 01:08:37.279
If you've got ideas for making things better,

01:08:37.280 --> 01:08:39.479
we have so many ideas. I always end up with a very long

01:08:39.480 --> 01:08:43.359
to-do list after these things. Please add them to the pad.

01:08:43.360 --> 01:08:46.919
I'd love to hear from you on how we can make it even smoother next year.

01:08:46.920 --> 01:08:49.359
There are about 100 people watching in gen

01:08:49.360 --> 01:08:52.159
and 100 people watching in devs, which is really awesome.

01:08:52.160 --> 01:08:54.119
It's amazing to think that we can have

01:08:54.120 --> 01:08:56.959
an Emacs party for a lot of people.

01:08:56.960 --> 01:09:00.399
And we can only do this because of all the wonderful speakers,

01:09:00.400 --> 01:09:02.279
volunteers, participants,

01:09:02.280 --> 01:09:04.359
and very patient people in our lives

01:09:04.360 --> 01:09:07.079
who make it possible through all the time and support.

01:09:07.080 --> 01:09:10.039
So this year, Corwin did most of the hosting.

01:09:10.040 --> 01:09:13.439
I mean, also dropped by earlier, so that's great.

01:09:13.440 --> 01:09:17.919
I hope Leo is okay. You know, we managed.

01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:22.439
And I'm Sasha, by the way. I was running around backstage

01:09:22.440 --> 01:09:26.559
and occasionally dropping in to go on the stream.

01:09:26.560 --> 01:09:29.359
There are lots of other volunteers who are not on air.

01:09:29.360 --> 01:09:32.719
So, for example, during the proposal review process,

01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:34.319
we got a lot of wonderful comments

01:09:34.320 --> 01:09:37.759
from J.C. Hellery, Chico, and James Andrews-Howell.

01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:41.039
captions from Amitav and Rodion and other people

01:09:41.040 --> 01:09:42.879
have actually started also helping

01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:45.079
with the captions as well.

01:09:45.080 --> 01:09:49.399
So jay_bird just sent in some stuff today too.

01:09:49.400 --> 01:09:52.959
We are slowly working on getting a mirror in the EU set up

01:09:52.960 --> 01:09:55.639
so it'll be a little faster for people.

01:09:55.640 --> 01:09:58.079
So thanks to Yang3 for lending us a server.

01:09:58.080 --> 01:10:00.879
Babin and Michael and Ian and Jamie

01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:06.119
and Eeyore and Floyd Coulter have also helped out as well.

01:10:06.120 --> 01:10:08.959
Thanks to the Free Software Foundation

01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:12.679
for the mailing list, the media server, and of course, GNU Emacs itself,

01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.439
for which an astonishing amount

01:10:15.440 --> 01:10:19.319
of the scripting is done in Emacs. It's great.

01:10:19.320 --> 01:10:23.279
Thanks to Ry P for the server that we're using for OBS

01:10:23.280 --> 01:10:27.639
so that we can just VNC into it and I can manage two tracks

01:10:27.640 --> 01:10:30.799
without making my computer melt. It's great.

01:10:30.800 --> 01:10:32.879
And of course, to all the users

01:10:32.880 --> 01:10:33.999
and contributors and project teams

01:10:34.000 --> 01:10:36.119
that work on all the free software

01:10:36.120 --> 01:10:37.279
that this stuff is built on.

01:10:37.280 --> 01:10:43.639
Emacs, Org Mode, ERC, Tramp, Magit, BigBlueButton,

01:10:43.640 --> 01:10:48.239
Etherpad, IkiWiki, IceCast, OBS, The Lounge,

01:10:48.240 --> 01:10:52.959
LiberaChat, FFmpeg, OpenAI Whisper, WhisperX,

01:10:52.960 --> 01:10:55.039
the Aeneas forced alignment tool,

01:10:55.040 --> 01:11:00.279
PsyTransfer, SubEd, SubSeg, Mozilla Firefox, MPV, and Tampermonkey,

01:11:00.280 --> 01:11:02.199
and other things I probably forgot to mention.

01:11:02.200 --> 01:11:04.599
Thanks to Shoshin for the music,

01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:06.799
and thanks to people also who've donated

01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:08.679
through the Working Together program,

01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:12.559
like Scott and Jonathan and other anonymous donors.

01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:15.919
So that's a quick thanks. There's more tomorrow,

01:11:15.920 --> 01:11:18.359
but Corwin, do you have any parting words?

01:11:18.360 --> 01:11:23.559
You know, my parting words, Sacha are a thanks to you

01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:25.759
and not just a thanks

01:11:25.760 --> 01:11:27.279
for the hundreds of hours that you put

01:11:27.280 --> 01:11:29.399
into preparing this conference,

01:11:29.400 --> 01:11:32.159
you know, over the years and probably just this year,

01:11:32.160 --> 01:11:35.999
but also for all that you do for the community you are.

01:11:36.000 --> 01:11:38.759
You are a real unsung hero,

01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:42.319
even though I do hear your praises sung.

01:11:42.320 --> 01:11:43.759
They really can't be sung enough.

01:11:43.760 --> 01:11:45.879
In fact, I just this last week

01:11:45.880 --> 01:11:48.039
recommended to two different people your blog

01:11:48.040 --> 01:11:51.599
as a place to get a first introduction to Emacs.

01:11:51.600 --> 01:11:54.799
Your Emacs news is an incredible contribution,

01:11:54.800 --> 01:11:57.959
and just I want you to hear us thanking you.

01:11:57.960 --> 01:12:04.879
Thank you, Sacha. Emacs is a lot of fun,

01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.519
and Emacs people are a lot of fun,

01:12:07.520 --> 01:12:10.879
so it's all very wonderful. Yeah, we can wrap up here.

01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:15.079
People can keep hanging out if they want.

01:12:15.080 --> 01:12:21.119
I have a kiddo who is probably going to be back home soon

01:12:21.120 --> 01:12:23.559
and will pounce on me for more hugs,

01:12:23.560 --> 01:12:25.599
so I will see y'all tomorrow.

01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:29.919
uh, for more probably the same kind of stuff.

01:12:29.920 --> 01:12:32.679
Shut it down, save our energy for tomorrow.

01:12:32.680 --> 01:12:36.319
Uh, we do like to run into like hours long closing tomorrow.

01:12:36.320 --> 01:12:38.319
So we'll work on resisting that.

01:12:38.320 --> 01:12:41.559
Um, I suggest we, we look, we go get some rest

01:12:41.560 --> 01:12:43.839
and come, come back at it fresh tomorrow.

01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:47.799
Anybody else, any concerns with that or shall we go for it?

01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:50.479
Sounds good to me.

01:12:50.480 --> 01:12:53.599
If you've got ideas, pop them into the etherpad.

01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:56.600
And thank you so much for sharing this time with us.

01:12:56.640 --> 01:13:23.800
See you tomorrow.