path: root/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-llm--emacs-editors-and-llm-driven-workflows--andrew-hyatt--main.vtt

WEBVTT captioned by amitav

NOTE Introduction

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Hi, I'm Andrew Hyatt.

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I'm going to talk to you today about Emacs and AI,

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and where things are right now

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in the world of Emacs and AI,

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via large language models,

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and where things might be going,

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and what it means for the future of Emacs.

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I think what we're seeing with Emacs is interesting.

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We've seen a lot of different things

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come around in the past year,

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in the past several years.

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There's lots of different solutions.

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But in the past year, things have been very interesting.

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I think there's new and interesting questions

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about what does it mean to use Emacs?

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What does it mean to use any editor?

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I'm going to be talking about Emacs,

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and I'm going to show you various Emacs packages

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as demonstrations of these ideas.

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But there's the general question of

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what does it mean to use any editor, not just Emacs?

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What does it mean to do work?

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And I think the industry in general is facing these challenges

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of we don't really know where things are going to end up,

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but we do know the direction they're going.

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Emacs is a reflection of that.

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I think the answer for Emacs might be

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a little bit different than everything else,

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but I do want to show you what's out there

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so we can explore what are the possibilities

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of Emacs, AI, and generally how we get things done.

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Thanks. Let's dive right into it.

NOTE Copilot

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We're going to start by showing you

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some things that are pretty well integrated,

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that look a lot like what you see in Emacs

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and fit in with the kinds of editing

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that you normally do in Emacs.

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So this is just kind of like, it's well integrated.

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So we're going to talk about Copilot and Semext.

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Copilot is by Microsoft via GitHub,

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and Semext is just my personal demo,

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but they're both showing you, you know,

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this kind of thing. Let's start with Copilot.

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Let's try out Copilot on just a standard bit of Elisp.

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We're going to write a Fibonacci function.

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Let's try out Emacs on a standard bit of Elisp.

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We're going to write a Fibonacci function.

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And you can see like as soon as we even start typing it,

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we get everything as a completion.

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So you can just press Tab here,

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and you've just completed

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a significant bunch of Emacs Lisp code.

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It will do this no matter where you are.

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So, pretty useful. It will just keep suggesting things.

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Do you want to do this?

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I'm not sure.

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But it usually is offering pretty reasonable things.

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So you could do this with code,

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of course, any code.

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You don't really even have to have a mode for it, right?

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That's kind of the beauty of AI is that

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you don't need any Emacs functionality for this,

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except for Copilot.

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It doesn't need to know the structure of your code.

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It doesn't need anything except for the text itself

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and whatever AI integration that this is.

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We can look at, you can do the same thing with Org-mode.

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So we could say create, no,

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how about let's, let's do, you know, spring cleaning.

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It's actually the fall, but still we'll say spring cleaning.

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And it'll start suggesting things that, you know,

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maybe at first, it doesn't really know what to do to

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clean up all code.

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It thinks I need to clean up code, but no,

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this is going to be actual, you know,

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clean hood over range. Clean out pantry.

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These are all really reasonable suggestions.

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You just keep going here.

NOTE Semext

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I'm going to demonstrate Semext,

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which is a package I have on GNU Elpa,

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that is designed to integrate AI in a very Emacs-like way.

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And so what you could do is you could do a

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semext-search-forward.

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The UI looks just like other Emacs commands,

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but you can search for anything.

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There's really no way to express what I'm about to,

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what I'm trying to demonstrate

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in Emacs's normal search commands.

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You could really ask for anything.

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And it takes a little while, which is not Emacs-like,

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but everything else is sort of like

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it's designed to be like Emacs,

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except way more powerful.

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You don't need any mode to be active for this.

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You  just need the library

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and an AI provider of some sort, either locally

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or, you know, your favorite cloud provider.

NOTE Integrated AI experiences: gptel, ellama, chatgpt-shell, etc.

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Now we're going to move on to a different way

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of interacting with AI and Emacs.

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This way is less like the normal editing experience.

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So you lose some familiarity. However, in exchange,

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it is a lot more powerful.

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And there's a whole suite of these tools.

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I'm going to demonstrate gptel,

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which is the most popular one.

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But there are many.

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And I think different people have

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their own preferences of what they like to use.

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We're going to try now something

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that is a step away from just editing.

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And we're going to, I'm actually using gptel.

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There are several packages that are going to be

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doing the same sort of thing as I'm going to show you.

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gptel has sort of become the most popular one.

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So that's why I'm showing that to you.

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But let's just highlight everything and say gptel rewrite.

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And gptel basically just has a few things.

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There's different ways of thinking about this.

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With just a few very configurable menus,

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you can do a large variety of things.

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So let's give rewrite instructions.

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"Turn this into an iterative program

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instead of a recursive program."

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In Elisp, you really should not be using recursion.

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So we could say "return to be ready".

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Do we accept it?

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Yes, we accept it. Or we could iterate and say, no, no,

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that's not what we meant. We meant something else.

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Or you did something a little something wrong.

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Please fix it.

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So this is all very powerful.

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Is this editing?

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Well, it's in the editor.

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You could do this while editing, while deleting,

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you could be doing some sort of traditional editing.

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And then this, which is editing

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in the sense that it's in your editor,

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you might have to highlight

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some parts of the file and do things,

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but generally you don't even need to,

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or you go to a spot and you say, put code at this spot.

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It's kind of like editing.

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I would say it's not exactly editing,

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but it's at least something that must happen in an editor

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and it's well integrated into Emacs.

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As you can tell, it used very sort of

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modern standard Emacs UI paradigms

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and it's all written in Elisp.

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Everything is happening in Elisp here.

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So this is just very much an Emacs experience.

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It's just not exactly editing

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because the thing doing the editing

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is the AI and not you.

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You're just kind of telling it what to do.

NOTE Outside the editor

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Now we're going to go and look at a way of interaction

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that's even more powerful

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and even more disconnected from the normal editing experience.

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In fact, it's so disconnected

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that most people are using this without an editor.

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These are things like Claude Code

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or the sort of open source equivalent, Aider.

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There's a few other things that follow this pattern as well.

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But it's very interesting in the sense

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that while you can integrate these with the editors,

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and I'm going to show you an Emacs integration,

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you don't need to.

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And that's not the way most people are using them.

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And I find it very interesting that sort of

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we're going back kind of full circle where, you know,

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in the 1960s or 70s, we were using Ed from the terminal

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to edit files, but then we created editors,

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and that was a really good idea.

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It is a lot easier to edit files

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when you have an actual UI.

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But now it's 2025, and we're back in the terminal,

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and we're editing files through the terminal,

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and you know what, it's great,

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but I think it's even better with Emacs.

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On the other hand, it comes with some trade-offs,

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as you can see, as we will see.

NOTE Outside Experiences: claude-code.el, aidermacs, eca

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Okay, we're going to look at

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[audio glitch] Claude Code IDE, aidermacs, ECA.

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Last time, I didn't show you all the variants.

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I do want to show you eca, which points to,

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it is a very similar tool in what it does,

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but does have a different

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and I think better type of Emacs integration.

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All right, we're going to demonstrate Claude Code IDE,

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which is one of three Claude Code packages.

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It's a bit confusing.

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One of them will be demoed by another presenter

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at the Emacs conference, so stay tuned for that.

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Here I'm just going to give you a little taste

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of what these packages look like.

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So if we say Claude Code IDE,

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it presents us with basically

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almost exactly what you would get

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when you're running this in the terminal.

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And essentially there's a terminal interface.

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You can see that there's a vterm.

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But here we're going to say, "In scratch.el"...

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let's say what we want to happen.

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[In scratch.el, there is a fibonacci function.

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Can you add all normal elisp headers

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and footers to this file?]

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So, we just say what's going to happen,

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and this is going to do things in the background.

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It's not going to do things through Emacs.

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That said, there is an integration with Emacs,

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so that it can do things like show you these nice ediffs.

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My screen is not really wide enough

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to show you a really great ediff here,

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but you can kind of see what it's doing,

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and you can see, yeah, that looks good,

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so you could say yes, yes, accept the changes,

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and if we... Just need to revert the buffer.

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We can quit the printout of this.

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We see that it just did everything I asked it to.

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Is everything exactly right?

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Probably not. It's reasonable for a start though.

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But you could ask it to do anything.

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You could say, write unit tests for this, and it will.

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You could say, write me a suite of functions

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like Fibonacci, and it'll probably do something reasonable.

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But you can see this is not editing.

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There's nothing editing-like about this.

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That said, there is something that is editing.

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You need to give it instructions.

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You need to tell it what to do.

NOTE Org files

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And what you could do is... You could have a project.org,

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and what you could do is you could have functions.

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The way I've done things often is ....

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You could say something like,

00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:36.199
unit tests for Fibonacci. How do you spell Fibonacci?

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I don't remember. But then you could say that this is,

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you could clock it, basically. org-clock.

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What I've done is...

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You could add custom commands to Claude Code,

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and you could just say, look, here's my Org file,

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read it and do the thing that I'm clocked in as.

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And then you can write a bunch of instructions here, like,

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I like to use ert for tests. Tests should, like, whatever.

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You should just say... everything

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you need to kind of specify.

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As you get to more complicated tasks,

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it's harder and harder to give it all the context

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it needs for a task,

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and Org Mode is actually a pretty good way to do this.

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I find that this works pretty well,

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and you can even have it instruct Claude

00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:29.333
to just mark things done in your Org file

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when they're done.

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And it knows how to do this, of course.

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So, let's just clock out.

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That's one way to do things.

NOTE ECA

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So one other thing I'd like to show you is eca,

00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:52.879
which, compared to Claude Code, ECA is open source.

00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:54.239
It's very nice in that respect.

00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.839
It doesn't have to use Anthropic's models.

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You can use local models,

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but it has the advantage of integrating very well with Emacs.

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I'm not going to demonstrate it,

00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:11.159
because it works essentially the same thing you could do

00:15:11.160 --> 00:15:14.119
approximately the same kinds of things

00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:15.479
you could do with Claude Code.

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You just write what you want to happen

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and it will make it happen.

00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:21.879
It again does not do this through Emacs,

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but what it does do is

00:15:23.040 --> 00:15:25.119
it gives you a much better Emacs interface

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that's not terminal-based,

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because you're not using it through the terminal,

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or not even through comint,

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you are using it through a backend

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that is exchanging structured information

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with this process that is doing all the work.

00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:41.900
But other than that,

00:15:41.901 --> 00:15:44.519
it's the same model as Claude Code

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and projects of that nature.

NOTE Editing

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We've seen in the demos that I gave

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that there are AI experiences

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that are very natural in the world of editing.

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because they, like Copilot, just offers completion,

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it fits very well with what we all do in Emacs.

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And it's truly, yes, it's kind of a cheat in a sense

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for editing experiences,

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because it can do so much, but it's just editing.

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Whereas things like gptel and those kinds of tools,

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they are clearly in an editor and using editor,

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they're using Emacs, but they represent sort of like, well,

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you can edit for a while, then you could use these tools

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to do something that is not editing,

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this AI just changing the buffer for you. And that's fine.

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It's still... It may not be editing,

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but it's still clearly something that

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is useful to do in Emacs

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and belongs in Emacs.

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But the new tools like Claude Code and things like that

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are kind of different.

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Yes, they will get better integrated with Emacs,

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but it's not clear that they really need to.

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They can do a lot of things without editing.

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In a sense, editing is obsolete in some sense.

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For as many tasks, you don't need to edit anymore.

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And that's a nice thing.

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No one really knows when all this will end,

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how far things will go. It could be that in a decade or so,

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no one's really editing for work anymore.

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Maybe you're just writing instructions.

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You could do that with anything.

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You don't need Emacs or any special editor.

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We could all be using Notepad. That would be bad.

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But... I think it could go that far,

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but it could be that, well, for many specialized things,

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people are still using editing for certain tasks,

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but most tasks are getting fed to just...

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AI is just doing those things.

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In any case, I think it's clear that editing is diminishing,

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the need for editing itself is diminishing.

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And in such a world, It's interesting to think

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where Emacs is headed, especially in relation to

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all the other editors.

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I think people will use Emacs less.

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But I think other editors, like VS Code,

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may simply disappear or be a relatively fringe tool.

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And Emacs is going to follow its own path.

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It's very extensible. It could do anything.

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If there's one thing Emacs can do, it's adapt.

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Emacs has been around for a long time.

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It's pretty clear that Emacs will be around for a long time.

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It might be that in the future,

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editing is some sort of like an artisanal activity that we do.

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It's kind of weird to think about it.

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It's not like baking bread.

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But it is the sense that AI might be

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churning out code in the way, you know,

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the factories are turning out bread,

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but if you really want the good stuff,

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you'll have to do it yourself.

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I don't know if it'll be exactly like that,

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but it could be that Emacs survives and thrives

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in a very kind of specialized ecosystem of people

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who contribute and use it in the way

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it has survived and thrive right now.

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And I think that's a really nice way for all this to end up.

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There's the whole sense of how society will end up

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if all this happens. I don't know,

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but Emacs will be there for us when whatever happens.

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So thank you, and let's help make Emacs the best it can be

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to survive and thrive in the next decade.