path: root/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-bookclub-tapas--bookclub-tapas--maddie-sullivan--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

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All right, take it away. Okay, am I, are we live?

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Yes, we're live. Oh man, holy moly.

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Oh, that's surreal. Hi everyone. Oh man.

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Ah, so excited to be here. So good to see all of you. Okay.

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So, should we just go ahead and get right into it?

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Yeah, let me, let me see here. So I have.

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Yeah, I see, I see some, I see some questions coming in.

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Perfect. I am going to show my share my screen real quick.

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We have currently currently we have

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a sort of a dross thing going.

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And so I just wanted to, while we're waiting

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for some more stuff to come in,

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I just wanted to sort of idle on this buffer here.

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If you increase your font size slightly,

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that might be even nicer.

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Yes, absolutely, gladly. Whoa, okay. There we go.

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All right, the first question

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was looking for examples of files in book club style.

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The person says, that seems to be related

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to what I've been doing,

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but coming from different influences. Yes, yes.

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So I included a, included a,

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Let me see, I'm just looking at the IRC here

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and smiling at all the people. So, yes, I provided a link.

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So I think that an excellent.

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So I have gone ahead and provided

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the get the link to the repo

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and I'm going to go ahead and post that again.

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So this should serve as a full example

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of what a just sort of standard book club file looks like.

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And if anyone has like specific questions

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about anything in particular,

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they would love to see my sort of like walkthrough

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and narrate like specifically, you know, any place in this file

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that they would like to see me sort of like go over live,

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I would be super happy to do that.

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So I have the whole, you know, more or less complete

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book club file for Squint pulled up here.

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Yeah, I have my vision laid out,

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which has my initial sort of goal.

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you know, the background and the vision sort of combined

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to lay out what my general sort of goal is.

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I just realized, let me kill my stream there.

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There we go. All right. There's another question.

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The product of a tapa like squint.org

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would be pure gold for an agent like Cloud Code.

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Have you experimented with providing an agent with a final output

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and letting it chew through to-dos?

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That would be a really excellent question.

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I actually just kind of recently

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got into Clawed in particular.

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I played quite a bit with GPT and

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and a lot of 8 billion parameter local models.

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And I was never super impressed.

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It always felt like I was just sort of wrangling

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to get it on the same page,

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whether as a result of sycophantism

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or really just not having enough parameters

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in order to understand the context of what's going on.

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Cloud has completely changed my perception

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of what an LLM can do or not.

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It makes autonomy not seem like a total fever train.

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I have definitely been curious about

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how an LLM would react to book club files.

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I think that, yeah, especially like,

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I've been daydreaming a little bit about,

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you know, having it generate scratch artifacts

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or suggesting, you know, changes to the format.

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It's like, yeah, the fact that

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this is all like, you know, like super,

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The goal and the hope for all of this

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is that we're being verbose about our thinking anyway.

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This is sort of how, by default,

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deep reasoning kind of works.

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I actually think that I totally agree.

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It would be a great fit.

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I have yet to personally do it,

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because I've always been just

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a little bit wary about, like, you know...

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Well, if I'm writing a program,

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I want to write it, you know?

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People often talk about, like, you know,

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oh, I just want to hand off

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the boring parts to Claude.

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But the thing is, if I'm writing an e-list,

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I find the whole thing to be kind of fun.

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be super, um, it would be super interested in, you know,

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just sort of as a point of exercise,

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like seeing what it's capable of.

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Because I think, I really do think

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that this would be kind of an ideal environment.

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It is kind of close to, you know,

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native-ish, how LLMs think.

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There's also, like, you know, of course,

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the, um, the privacy angle.

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I don't necessarily want to provide

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a whole bunch of code verbatim that I intend to GPL3.

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But I believe that Claude kind of has a better policy

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in terms of what does and does not become training data.

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I'll have to look into Claude in particular

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because I feel like that would be my target for it.

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But yeah, I think that's definitely onto something.

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I've definitely thought about this.

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I've definitely been really curious about this.

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Next question, do you think every Tapa

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should have its own book club file as well?

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Or would you rather keep just one book club file

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in the top of the project?

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So I think that I definitely would advise

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that each Tapa have its own book club file.

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The reason being is because I find that for me personally,

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the way that my brain kind of works

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is that out of sight, out of mind is very literal for me.

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I find that I find that. What am I thinking of?

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Sorry, I just saw that I got an email

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and I'm like, yeah, okay, cool.

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Case in point, right? We are at case in point, you know,

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out of sight, out of mind. Yes, no, absolutely.

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Yeah, no, exactly. I, um, I'm definitely quite ADHD

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and it works for my advantage

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because it provides all sorts of versatility.

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This is another great advantage of book club.

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If you have an ADHD mind like I do where, you know,

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You love jumping around and working on

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all sorts of different pieces simultaneously.

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You don't like sitting down

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and doing the same thing all day

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unless it really latches onto you.

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You know, you can pivot and you don't do anything.

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It really rewards the fact that you can pivot.

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So I find that to be really excellent.

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But to go back to the original a question,

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I would definitely recommend,

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at least in my circumstance,

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I find it to be incredibly useful

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to have each tapa be its own book club file

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rather than to have a unified file

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that holds all of your tapas. You can definitely do this,

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especially if you're using org

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to organize it hierarchically.

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It's just sort of a matter of preference

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and style at that point.

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So long as you're making a clear distinction between your tapas,

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that's the main thing

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that I would recommend no matter what,

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because the whole hope that I have is that

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you have a sort of separation of focus

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between the different you know,

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the different focuses of your different tapas,

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they really should ideally feel like different programs

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so that you're not, you know,

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getting over yourself, getting ahead of yourself.

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I think that, you know, on that basis,

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I would probably default to recommending

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that tapas have their own separate book club files,

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because ideally they should kind of be different

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sort of independent but related thoughts.

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But at the same time, I mean, like, you know,

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this is coming from someone

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who like has a billion small, like, you know,

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I had one giant org file for a long time

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and then realized that really didn't work for me.

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So now I have a billion tiny ones.

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So depending upon how you feel about, you know,

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should I have one really big org file

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or a bunch of really little org files?

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I feel like that more or less gives your answer.

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I think it's whatever works best for you.

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I know that far and away what works best for me

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is having separate files. No matter what, you should have

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separation of concept though.

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But however you do that is, you know,

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is best your judgment call.

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Next question, how do you build habits

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when it comes to documentation?

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I tend to produce lots of documentation in one go,

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then effectively forget to do it for long periods of time

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and end up playing catch up,

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which results in a loss of precision,

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as you alluded to in your talk.

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In a work setting, when something goes on fire

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or priorities change, it can be hard to keep discipline.

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Would love your thoughts. Thanks. Yes, absolutely.

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So what I tend to do is I don't

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So really, so far, what I've been doing

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is that I haven't been making a conscious priority

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of writing documentation at all.

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And if that sounds contradictory

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to the talk, that is correct.

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What I mean by this is that I go about

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is that when I'm writing code,

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when I'm writing, you know, drafts of my functions,

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the way that I tend to approach this,

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the way that I really emphasize the approach for it,

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is that I want to focus first and foremost

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on sort of like just writing down

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what my internal monologue is

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for what I'm doing for that pass working on the file.

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So my document takes ultimate

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Distance of dark is ultimately a property

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from the fact that I am writing

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what I'm doing as I'm doing it.

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And it's more or less just I'm just

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mashing out the stream of consciousness

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of what's going on inside my head as it's happening.

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So if we go down and we take a look at,

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yeah, so let's go ahead and take a look back at the macro.

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Yeah, really, this is kind of cheating,

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because mostly I would consider this to be self-documenting,

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but we all kind of know that

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that in and of itself is a slippery slope.

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That's not great. Because it's like, I could believe

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that this would be self-documenting

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if this was a three-liner.

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It is not. which, you know, also goes to show me

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that this needs to be splitting into its own topos.

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I intend to, you know, write a Tapa that's a sort of,

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that's a sort of like macro builder

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that automatically, you know, does the gensims for you.

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Something along the lines of

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what's the common Lisp macro for that called?

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It's like, There's some common list faculty

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that does automatic Jensen binding.

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I can't quite remember what it's called.

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A prior version of this talk had my live coding that,

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but that ended up sort of distracting

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from what I kind of wanted to nail out and focus on.

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But really kind of what I do is that,

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let me see here if I can find some sort of,

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Yeah, so I have in my research section

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sort of layout like what the quirks of all this sort of are.

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I think my development focuses contain

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a little bit of what could be ultimately

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considered to be documentation.

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Yeah, as I'm looking through all of this,

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I'm kind of realizing that like,

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you know, yeah, there's stuff

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that I'm into documentation here,

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but it's all a little ad hoc.

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You know, I would, in part,

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the design of this particular tapa

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is arguably not currently,

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but is going to be simple enough such that

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a doc string is sufficient for documentation.

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That is not the case currently.

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All right, next question is,

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how do you write examples and tests?

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I think that you mentioned that during the talk,

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but I couldn't find them on a very quick look

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at your org file in the Squint repo.

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My use of the word test was a little bit creative.

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It's my validation of the code that I've written.

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I more or less tend to do a,

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I tend to try and write really small functions

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and have really aggressive validation

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by just making sure that, like, you know,

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when I chain functions in the REPL,

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each step of them produces results

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that are really quite immediately and self-verifiably seen.

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Now, this isn't a great excuse to not use a test suite,

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but it's gotten me pretty far.

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What I mean by tests is that in the research sections,

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what I've done is, so I've created a sort of tested

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in the sense that I have created

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a really highly representative case

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of the way that the program ultimately ought to behave.

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In doing so, I created a sort of embedded domain language

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that I have termed animal houses.

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And Animal Houses is a sort of markup language

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that has rather simple rules.

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This here is the entirety of the spec for Animal Houses.

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Grammar or anything, but like, it is more or less.

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Breadth of everything that needs to be known

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about how animal houses works.

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And I've created animal houses because it is an ideal

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and incredibly simple circumstance.

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For how to go about as needed tests.

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For how squint ultimately ought to work in practice.

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So when I'm doing research,

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what I do is I take the text of animal houses,

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and I will go ahead and insert it into a buffer.

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And I'll just create an analog buffer.

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I just called it a woo.

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And then what I'll do is in my research sections, I will write

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Like I'll write like step-by-step

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like instructions on how to go about with a REPL-driven detection

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using animal houses. So it does squint pass label

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to width restriction correctly.

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The tests conducted here indicate that it does not.

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And then I link to a development focus.

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that um effectively acts as my bug report

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or sorry my uh you know my bug for um

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my bug listing for this particular problem

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that I've identified

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I lay out some criteria of how to

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go about using the REPL to um

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you know I identify what I believe

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is sort of like the quarantined area

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that I found for the bug

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and then test is that I will go about

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engaging with narration

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the step-by-step of how I produce

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the circumstances around the bug

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until I ultimately narrow all the way in

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and arrive at a conclusion.

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Something's going on with the screen share.

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I can see your screen but

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the server cannot see your screen updating.

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Sorry. Oh, no. Maybe you stop switching.

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Yeah, and then we just redo it again. Thank you.

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Yes, absolutely.

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Thanks to someone who noticed the buffer time,

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the time in the load line was not updating.

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Okay, let's try that again. Now it's updating. Gotcha.

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I hope that wasn't going on for too, too long.

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Hopefully what I was saying

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wasn't completely indecipherable. Let me see here.

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Yeah, this is the sample text for animal houses.

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This is the spec, not a formal grammar,

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but it is more or less the whole of the spec

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that you need to write a parser for animal houses.

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Most of the tests around Squint involve

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writing sort of ad hoc parsers for animal houses.

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Just when I have it in its own buffer, you know,

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I find more or less it's an excellent way

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of going about testing

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in an ad hoc sort of REPL driven manner.

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that I just sort of write regular

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that pull out the pieces of the sections of buffer

19:43.800 --> 19:49.439
that represent the different fields and data types

19:49.440 --> 19:51.599
in association with the animals

19:51.600 --> 19:54.879
and the houses to which they belong.

19:54.880 --> 20:00.319
And then when I am engaging in research,

20:00.320 --> 20:03.559
Um, you know, what, what my research section is,

20:03.560 --> 20:05.079
is I'm ultimately just sort of like

20:05.080 --> 20:06.399
laying out, like, you know,

20:06.400 --> 20:10.239
I'm sort of thinking to myself, is this working right?

20:10.240 --> 20:11.319
I feel like, like, I feel like

20:11.320 --> 20:14.639
there's something here, something in this area.

20:14.640 --> 20:16.919
And I'll, you know, ask myself, well,

20:16.920 --> 20:20.199
kind of like, what is it, you know, what am I looking for?

20:20.200 --> 20:22.519
And then nail down, how am I going

20:22.520 --> 20:24.439
to go about looking for it?

20:24.440 --> 20:30.559
The process of working with the REPL

20:30.560 --> 20:34.319
to sort of pin down like what exactly is going on

20:34.320 --> 20:36.119
and come to a conclusion

20:36.120 --> 20:44.519
on completely jumping out of order.

20:44.520 --> 20:47.799
Have you experimented in like whisper.el

20:47.800 --> 20:49.759
for doing speech to text

20:49.760 --> 20:51.999
as you think out loud into your book club?

20:52.000 --> 20:56.799
Now I am. I love that idea. That is awesome.

20:56.800 --> 21:00.039
Yeah, no, I love that.

21:00.040 --> 21:04.839
Even with, I only have a CPU, no GPU on mine,

21:04.840 --> 21:08.039
it does capture things a lot faster.

21:08.040 --> 21:12.199
And because it actually saves the recording to a WAV,

21:12.200 --> 21:14.239
or I guess you can configure it,

21:14.240 --> 21:16.959
in case it doesn't recognize something well,

21:16.960 --> 21:20.799
you can go back and check it. That's nice.

21:20.800 --> 21:24.319
I like that more than a straight speech-text thing.

21:24.320 --> 21:27.439
I've been mulling over the idea

21:27.440 --> 21:30.959
of having a keystroke save into a background buffer

21:30.960 --> 21:33.399
so that even when I'm looking at something else,

21:33.400 --> 21:37.919
I can dictate into my equivalent of the book club file.

21:37.920 --> 21:41.759
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.

21:41.760 --> 21:44.719
So you can be scrolling through documentation on, like,

21:44.720 --> 21:48.079
you can be scrolling through documentation on one screen

21:48.080 --> 21:49.799
and you can be musing to yourself about,

21:49.800 --> 21:52.479
like, you know, is this supposed to work this way?

21:52.480 --> 21:57.319
Like, you know, like, what in terms of, like,

21:57.320 --> 21:59.799
you know, like, I see this function.

21:59.800 --> 22:01.279
It sounds like it's what I'm looking for.

22:01.280 --> 22:03.399
I don't know if the types are quite right.

22:03.400 --> 22:05.679
I don't understand. It's named what I'm looking for,

22:05.680 --> 22:07.319
but I don't know what it's taking in.

22:07.320 --> 22:09.439
You can reason through all of this.

22:09.440 --> 22:10.599
You're not even writing into the buffer

22:10.600 --> 22:14.119
that you're working with. That's actually so cool.

22:14.120 --> 22:17.279
Or you can type into the org capture process

22:17.280 --> 22:21.039
so that it can pick up an annotation automatically.

22:21.040 --> 22:24.719
Sorry, annotation is the link to the thing,

22:24.720 --> 22:26.159
whatever you're looking at.

22:26.160 --> 22:32.999
Oh, that's super cool. Yes. No, I actually really love it.

22:33.000 --> 22:36.119
I haven't, you know, hooking this all up to Org Capture at all.

22:36.120 --> 22:58.639
I actually really love that idea in of itself. Yeah.

22:58.640 --> 23:01.119
Or a capture will give you a lot of capture options.

23:01.120 --> 23:03.159
Like you can capture to your currently

23:03.160 --> 23:11.039
clocked in, uh, heading. So then it just files your note

23:11.040 --> 23:12.919
in the right place automatically.

23:12.920 --> 23:19.199
Absolutely. I love that. Let me see.

23:19.200 --> 23:22.279
I'm actually like writing a note to try that out.

23:22.280 --> 23:25.159
I'm definitely going to have to do that.

23:25.160 --> 23:36.039
Like the flexibility of that in particular sounds just perfect.

23:36.040 --> 23:38.239
I'd like to finish typing noises

23:38.240 --> 23:39.679
and then we can ask the next question

23:39.680 --> 23:41.239
for which there is one.

23:41.240 --> 23:45.839
The question is, what is the largest project

23:45.840 --> 23:48.479
in terms of team size you had the chance to consult

23:48.480 --> 23:51.079
and introduce the book club tapas concept?

23:51.080 --> 23:53.199
And what has been your experiences with these setups,

23:53.200 --> 23:56.279
implying larger applications or solutions

23:56.280 --> 23:57.319
that company is working on?

23:57.320 --> 24:01.959
So yeah, probably the largest application.

24:01.960 --> 24:05.879
So I have, It's been interesting.

24:05.880 --> 24:08.879
So in regards to this, the largest,

24:08.880 --> 24:10.119
I would say two people

24:10.120 --> 24:12.719
in a couple of different circumstance.

24:12.720 --> 24:20.079
So it's the pair of us working in a startup context.

24:20.080 --> 24:24.439
And then, you know, we both have

24:24.440 --> 24:25.799
like rather technical backgrounds.

24:25.800 --> 24:27.479
We can both more or less, you know,

24:27.480 --> 24:33.639
You know, sort of reason about particularly excite,

24:33.640 --> 24:37.199
especially as we've been building up top us is that,

24:37.200 --> 24:39.559
you know, well, we're both rather technical.

24:39.560 --> 24:42.679
You know, I'm definitely software engineering sort of end.

24:42.680 --> 24:47.359
And, you know, this partner is more.

24:47.360 --> 24:50.999
I mean, he's done all sorts of different engineering,

24:51.000 --> 24:54.039
but none of it in a, like, especially software context.

24:54.040 --> 24:56.559
So like, you know, but what's been

24:56.560 --> 24:58.119
really cool about that is that

24:58.120 --> 24:59.599
especially as we've built up top us

24:59.600 --> 25:00.799
and made clear distinctions

25:00.800 --> 25:02.879
about what they ought to do, you know,

25:02.880 --> 25:04.599
he doesn't have a ton of like really,

25:04.600 --> 25:10.839
he doesn't like experience like

25:10.840 --> 25:12.479
specifically in software engineering,

25:12.480 --> 25:15.559
but because we have it all laid out

25:15.560 --> 25:17.399
in this really flexible way,

25:17.400 --> 25:20.199
he's able to pick up the ball and like,

25:20.200 --> 25:21.879
you know, like he's able to

25:21.880 --> 25:23.119
take the ball and run with it.

25:23.120 --> 25:25.279
because it's all laid out

25:25.280 --> 25:26.559
in a way that's so intuitive.

25:26.560 --> 25:28.719
Like, you know, he's able to like

25:28.720 --> 25:31.199
collaborate with me and like,

25:31.200 --> 25:33.279
you know, like, you know, run off these ideas

25:33.280 --> 25:34.919
and like really go for it.

25:34.920 --> 25:37.399
Like, you know, almost as quickly as I can,

25:37.400 --> 25:39.319
just because we've set up a structure

25:39.320 --> 25:42.159
where like all of the different pieces

25:42.160 --> 25:43.719
have these really intuitive

25:43.720 --> 25:46.399
and intrinsic and straightforward roles.

25:46.400 --> 25:47.839
And that's, that's something

25:47.840 --> 25:49.044
that's really exciting in of itself

25:49.045 --> 25:50.669
that I didn't really go over in the talk.

25:50.670 --> 25:54.359
Like a managerial perspective,

25:54.360 --> 25:56.919
this is actually a really excellent way

25:56.920 --> 26:01.199
of understanding the whole context

26:01.200 --> 26:04.799
of like what the software stack looks like.

26:04.800 --> 26:06.439
Because it's like, you know,

26:06.440 --> 26:09.119
it makes it more intuitive for developers for sure,

26:09.120 --> 26:10.719
but it makes it more intuitive for everyone.

26:10.720 --> 26:12.759
You know, it's on that basis

26:12.760 --> 26:14.839
that I can't imagine clients

26:14.840 --> 26:18.239
like just a better way at this point.

26:18.240 --> 26:22.239
Um, that was that was the other circumstance

26:22.240 --> 26:25.239
where I have been working with a partner.

26:25.240 --> 26:29.399
This has been with, um, you know, I would be, uh.

26:29.400 --> 26:31.919
You know, sort of going back and forth

26:31.920 --> 26:34.199
with someone who had hired me.

26:34.200 --> 26:40.159
Um, to, uh, like, you know, to work on contract.

26:40.160 --> 26:42.839
And I would use this to sort of go

26:42.840 --> 26:45.199
over with them about, um.

26:45.200 --> 26:51.239
Sort of get a solid idea of scope and function,

26:51.240 --> 26:57.199
do pre-planning as we're going into more specifics

26:57.200 --> 27:01.359
on what the overall look for the project

27:01.360 --> 27:03.479
and how it ought to look

27:03.480 --> 27:05.679
and how it all ought to be laid out.

27:05.680 --> 27:11.519
So there's a lot of really exciting flexibility there

27:11.520 --> 27:13.199
that I think is really cool.

27:13.200 --> 27:23.679
People will, of course, be curious

27:23.680 --> 27:25.919
about the mechanics of that collaboration.

27:25.920 --> 27:28.719
Did you get other people using Emacs in org?

27:28.720 --> 27:32.359
Were you using version control? Did you try out CRDT?

27:32.360 --> 27:33.239
How did it work?

27:33.240 --> 27:39.639
So all of this so far has been over screen share,

27:39.640 --> 27:43.679
where I would be stepping through the buffer by hand.

27:43.680 --> 27:47.839
I would love to set up some sort of an environment

27:47.840 --> 27:52.359
where I could get you know, clients and partners,

27:52.360 --> 27:53.359
like, you know, really excited

27:53.360 --> 27:54.799
about using Emacs on org.

27:54.800 --> 27:58.559
But, you know, it's, it can be a little bit to ask,

27:58.560 --> 28:00.119
I would love to see if I can, like,

28:00.120 --> 28:01.879
put together some sort of a config that,

28:01.880 --> 28:04.519
like, sands off all of this and, you know,

28:04.520 --> 28:08.079
makes this this really, you know, you know,

28:08.080 --> 28:13.759
like safety-proof sort of intuitive environment

28:13.760 --> 28:16.599
just for CRDT in particular.

28:16.600 --> 28:18.879
I love the idea of like, you know,

28:18.880 --> 28:21.479
sort of like spawning CRDT

28:21.480 --> 28:24.159
so that like, you know, the two of us can,

28:24.160 --> 28:27.559
you know, type SPAC and ideas

28:27.560 --> 28:31.239
and sort of like draft together on, you know,

28:31.240 --> 28:33.559
especially like the glue code tapa

28:33.560 --> 28:35.639
for a larger software stack.

28:35.640 --> 28:38.399
like collaborating on that over CRDT

28:38.400 --> 28:43.399
or having folks step through Tapas and,

28:43.400 --> 28:45.599
you know, unfold them and like, you know,

28:45.600 --> 28:46.719
point to a particular thing.

28:46.720 --> 28:49.159
And it's like, you know, like, what's, what's this?

28:49.160 --> 28:50.119
What's the clock here?

28:50.120 --> 28:52.239
It looks like we're spending a lot of time

28:52.240 --> 28:54.519
and I would like to get a little bit clearer

28:54.520 --> 28:56.319
of an idea of like what exactly we're doing here.

28:56.320 --> 29:01.319
back up a little bit because the stream just disconnected

29:01.320 --> 29:02.759
and reconnected from the audio.

29:02.760 --> 29:06.599
So, please repeat just the last sentence.

29:06.600 --> 29:11.959
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, so I would like, you know,

29:11.960 --> 29:18.239
I love the idea of, yeah, like, you know, collaborating on,

29:18.240 --> 29:20.519
especially like on the glue code.

29:20.520 --> 29:23.839
tapa for a particular software stack, you know,

29:23.840 --> 29:26.159
having the both of us use CRDT

29:26.160 --> 29:27.719
to type into it simultaneously,

29:27.720 --> 29:30.159
I think that would be super cool.

29:30.160 --> 29:33.679
I also really love the idea of, you know,

29:33.680 --> 29:38.159
having a client or partner, you know,

29:38.160 --> 29:41.479
thumb through individual tapas in the stack.

29:41.480 --> 29:45.639
And then like, you know, like, look at and be like,

29:45.640 --> 29:47.879
well, we seem to have time on this recently,

29:47.880 --> 29:51.759
can you give me like, some clarification on like,

29:51.760 --> 29:55.519
you know, what, what this part is and how it's, you know,

29:55.520 --> 29:57.559
what it means for the whole

29:57.560 --> 30:00.799
and sort of like what, you know, what it represents

30:00.800 --> 30:02.599
in terms of how all of this is going to come together.

30:02.600 --> 30:06.439
I think that would be super cool. I love the idea of that.

30:06.440 --> 30:11.679
I would even consider like, you know, if not Emacs proper,

30:11.680 --> 30:17.119
I would love like, you know, maybe a, a web-based org parser.

30:17.120 --> 30:21.399
for, you know, even on just a read-only version

30:21.400 --> 30:25.399
of the document where, you know, clients and partners, yeah,

30:25.400 --> 30:26.879
just sort of thumb through with it

30:26.880 --> 30:28.199
and then chat with questions.

30:28.200 --> 30:34.159
Make the, you know, screen sharing for, you know,

30:34.160 --> 30:36.519
peer programming process

30:36.520 --> 30:41.599
just a little bit cleaner, you know, more intuitive on their end.

30:41.600 --> 30:50.399
I think that'd be super cool. I love these ideas.

30:50.400 --> 30:55.002
All right, theoretically, the big blue button is open.

30:55.003 --> 30:57.002
I think we've gotten to the end

30:57.003 --> 31:00.294
of the questions on the etherpad.

31:00.295 --> 31:03.085
If anyone else would like to join or ask,

31:03.086 --> 31:04.840
I'm gonna need a couple of minutes

31:04.841 --> 31:06.359
and then I can do closing remarks

31:06.360 --> 31:07.999
whenever people are ready.

31:08.000 --> 31:14.479
So I will meet now when people figure things out.

31:14.480 --> 31:22.039
I would also be super down if, you know,

31:22.040 --> 31:25.319
anyone was curious about hearing more

31:25.320 --> 31:28.999
about some of the projects

31:29.000 --> 31:30.799
that I was kind of rambling

31:30.800 --> 31:34.679
at the close of the talk,

31:34.680 --> 31:36.479
if people wanted to, you know,

31:36.480 --> 31:39.359
hear more about, um, some of my ideas

31:39.360 --> 31:42.799
in regards to, um, uh,

31:42.800 --> 31:45.719
what am I thinking at home with the, uh,

31:45.720 --> 31:49.759
What's it called?

31:49.760 --> 31:53.479
Yeah, yeah, just sort of the, you know,

31:53.480 --> 31:55.439
some of the funding for passion projects,

31:55.440 --> 31:58.319
I would be interested in laying out some of the ideas

31:58.320 --> 31:59.959
about how that could work mechanically.

31:59.960 --> 32:02.559
And I think that that would be, you know,

32:02.560 --> 32:04.719
really cool for the whole ecosystem,

32:04.720 --> 32:06.719
because I think that there are definitely,

32:06.720 --> 32:09.639
you know, things that we could bang out, you know,

32:09.640 --> 32:12.919
for getting kind of all sorts of people on that model.

32:12.920 --> 32:14.519
I think that it would be really cool

32:14.520 --> 32:18.399
to to having a, you know, funding model

32:18.400 --> 32:20.239
for things that are really worth using.

32:20.240 --> 32:26.519
um and developing um the other thing is like

32:26.520 --> 32:28.199
you know just sort of um yeah

32:28.200 --> 32:31.559
just rattling off specifics on things

32:31.560 --> 32:34.960
that people could potentially vote for uh on that

32:34.961 --> 32:53.759
and in terms of specific might want to work on

32:53.760 --> 32:56.877
All right, there's a question from IRC.

32:56.878 --> 33:01.880
Sorry, I just got that. Did you address that one already?

33:01.881 --> 33:07.127
Let's see. Where is it?

33:07.128 --> 33:12.359
I will copy it from IRC. Thank you.

33:12.360 --> 33:14.319
Gotcha. Into the past.

33:14.320 --> 33:27.759
Perfect, perfect, perfect.

33:27.760 --> 33:30.679
Let me read the question out loud so it's in the recording.

33:30.680 --> 33:33.719
I guess a major pro is it has less friction

33:33.720 --> 33:35.759
as people can do a lot,

33:35.760 --> 33:39.039
maybe not everything in book lab tapas files

33:39.040 --> 33:42.639
versus having to log into gazillions of different systems,

33:42.640 --> 33:45.199
each one of them keeping a portion of the information.

33:45.200 --> 33:47.359
Did I get that viewing point right

33:47.360 --> 33:49.479
from your elaboration of the collaboration

33:49.480 --> 33:52.159
between you and your teammates?

33:52.160 --> 33:55.439
Yes. No, that's absolutely right.

33:55.440 --> 33:57.999
um because yeah like really

33:58.000 --> 34:00.519
my hope is that we can you know

34:00.520 --> 34:03.239
there's there's a lot of conflict into that

34:03.240 --> 34:13.359
we assume that a lot of um pieces of tooling

34:13.360 --> 34:14.559
and the separation between them

34:14.560 --> 34:16.439
is really sort of a necessary evil

34:16.440 --> 34:19.239
i think that you know having a system

34:19.240 --> 34:21.519
where really the complexity

34:21.520 --> 34:25.719
of engaging in all of the information

34:25.720 --> 34:29.119
relevant to the program.

34:29.120 --> 34:30.319
If it's in a format

34:30.320 --> 34:31.799
where you can just email it back and forth,

34:31.800 --> 34:33.199
break off pieces of it,

34:33.200 --> 34:35.119
work with those individually,

34:35.120 --> 34:38.759
I think that that's something

34:38.760 --> 34:40.279
that's incredibly rewarding.

34:40.280 --> 34:42.639
Something that just dawned on me

34:42.640 --> 34:44.439
that I wanted to mention

34:44.440 --> 34:46.959
that I've been daydreaming about

34:46.960 --> 34:49.399
is that in a circumstance

34:49.400 --> 34:52.079
where you have multiple developers,

34:52.080 --> 34:53.879
like, you know, across a larger team,

34:53.880 --> 34:57.359
working on a book club tapas driven project,

34:57.360 --> 35:02.559
what you can do is have, you know,

35:02.560 --> 35:04.559
a clear, you can lay out your goal,

35:04.560 --> 35:08.439
and then start splitting it to tapas from that point,

35:08.440 --> 35:11.839
and then assign each teammate their own tapa,

35:11.840 --> 35:13.279
which becomes their baby.

35:13.280 --> 35:15.639
And I really love the idea

35:15.640 --> 35:17.479
of people being able to, you know,

35:17.480 --> 35:20.319
have an idea of an interface

35:20.320 --> 35:21.599
about how all of these are

35:21.600 --> 35:22.719
ultimately come back together,

35:22.720 --> 35:26.639
but people have their own like agency

35:26.640 --> 35:27.919
over their own code base,

35:27.920 --> 35:29.119
despite the fact that they're

35:29.120 --> 35:30.479
working in collaboration.

35:30.480 --> 35:32.719
I think that it can be incredibly motivating

35:32.720 --> 35:36.079
for a team to, you know, have each person

35:36.080 --> 35:38.039
in charge of their own project,

35:38.040 --> 35:39.839
but of course it's all ultimately

35:39.840 --> 35:41.319
going to the same code base.

35:41.320 --> 35:43.199
So, you know, I think that,

35:43.200 --> 35:45.479
that a pursuit of beauty

35:45.480 --> 35:48.519
is this really solid motivator

35:48.520 --> 35:50.839
in terms of how people perceive

35:50.840 --> 35:53.959
the merits of their efforts

35:53.960 --> 35:56.479
and how that lights a fire under them

35:56.480 --> 35:58.999
to continue and keep going and dig deep

35:59.000 --> 36:00.559
when things get frustrating.

36:00.560 --> 36:02.799
When you have a personal stake

36:02.800 --> 36:03.399
in your project,

36:03.400 --> 36:06.479
I think that that's a really excellent time

36:06.480 --> 36:08.599
to really push and move forward on it.

36:08.600 --> 36:10.559
And people having ownership

36:10.560 --> 36:12.719
over this idea of their specific tapa

36:12.720 --> 36:14.999
could be a really cool way to do that

36:15.000 --> 36:15.759
in a team setting.

36:15.760 --> 36:19.999
But I pivoted off a little bit.

36:20.000 --> 36:24.559
So yes, but I absolutely did that.

36:24.560 --> 36:28.599
You know, that having a simplistic format

36:28.600 --> 36:29.999
for your information

36:30.000 --> 36:33.319
is a really solid way to have

36:33.320 --> 36:36.319
collaboration be frictionless.

36:36.320 --> 36:38.719
You have one source of information

36:38.720 --> 36:40.799
and you don't have to drown in your tooling.

36:40.800 --> 36:51.839
All right, I think you've addressed

36:51.840 --> 36:54.919
all the questions on the etherpad.

36:54.920 --> 36:56.799
And as you said, people can email you,

36:56.800 --> 36:58.439
even though the website looks like

36:58.440 --> 37:00.479
it's still not quite there yet,

37:00.480 --> 37:03.719
people can email you or ask questions

37:03.720 --> 37:05.039
to the etherpad afterwards.

37:05.040 --> 37:07.439
Is there anything else that

37:07.440 --> 37:11.039
you'd like to share or shall I wrap up,

37:11.040 --> 37:13.279
introduce myself doing the closing remarks

37:13.280 --> 37:16.959
and then try to do the closing remarks?

37:16.960 --> 37:18.839
Yes, so I have two last thoughts.

37:18.840 --> 37:21.439
Yes, no, I did just want to confirm

37:21.440 --> 37:24.319
that my email is completely working.

37:24.320 --> 37:27.199
If you want to keep up to date

37:27.200 --> 37:29.399
with the stuff that I'm working on,

37:29.400 --> 37:35.239
please shoot and I will, you know, at your request,

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I will add you to a mailing list.

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which will have intermittent updates.

37:40.480 --> 37:42.919
I'm not going to send you spam,

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but it will have updates for what I'm working on,

37:47.280 --> 37:48.599
what this all looks like,

37:48.600 --> 37:52.359
and just context for the different things

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that I'm working on.

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My website will be going up soon enough.

37:57.000 --> 38:01.119
I just got a little distracted because I'm like,

38:01.120 --> 38:05.239
oh, I'm just gonna spin up a Gux server

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and I'm gonna make it super cool

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when really I just need just

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Debian and Apache real quick, just something.

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So the website will be going up. It's just not up yet.

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And the very last thing is that

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I would really like to thank everyone

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that helped me to get here. I would like to thank you know,

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all of my, you know, I would like to thank my fiance.

38:32.320 --> 38:34.519
I would like to thank all of my friends.

38:34.520 --> 38:39.359
I would like to thank my, you know,

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my mentor and business partner, Sharon.

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I would like to thank Tracy, my therapist.

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I would like to thank my parents.

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I invited people to come watch this thing,

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and I would like to thank all of them.

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I would like to thank everyone

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who was planning on coming to this event anyway.

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The Emacs community is incredible, incredibly encouraging,

39:06.360 --> 39:09.399
incredibly kind, incredibly smart and talented.

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Y'all make Emacs what it is, and it is so cool.

39:13.720 --> 39:15.919
I would like to thank you, Satya.

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I would like to thank all of the organizers

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that made this possible.

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This thing is the coolest and it was, this was so cool.