path: root/2024/info/guile-after.md

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<div class="transcript transcript-mainVideo"><a name="guile-mainVideo-transcript"></a><h1>Transcript</h1>

[[!template text="""Hello everyone. I'm Robin Templeton,""" start="00:00:00.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and I'm going to talk about Emacs Beguiled""" start="00:00:03.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and recent progress on the Guile-Emacs project.""" start="00:00:05.766" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""First of all, if you're not familiar with Guile,""" start="00:00:13.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""it's an implementation of the Scheme programming language,""" start="00:00:16.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which is a dialect of Lisp,""" start="00:00:19.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and in the same family as Emacs Lisp,""" start="00:00:22.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and Guile is GNU's official extension language.""" start="00:00:24.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The goal of the Guile-Emacs project""" start="00:00:28.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""is to use Guile as the basis for Emacs's Lisp support.""" start="00:00:30.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It has two main components:""" start="00:00:34.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""a new Emacs Lisp compiler built on top of Guile,""" start="00:00:37.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and a variant of Emacs""" start="00:00:41.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in which the built-in Lisp implementation""" start="00:00:42.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""is entirely replaced with Guile Elisp.""" start="00:00:45.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We expect the combination of these two projects""" start="00:00:49.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to have several benefits. One is improved performance.""" start="00:00:52.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Another is increased expressiveness for Elisp""" start="00:00:57.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and making it easier to extend""" start="00:01:00.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and experiment with the language.""" start="00:01:04.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Finally, it will reduce""" start="00:01:07.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs's reliance on C for two reasons.""" start="00:01:08.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile will be responsible for the language implementation,""" start="00:01:12.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""so Emacs will no longer have to include a Lisp interpreter.""" start="00:01:16.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It will also become possible""" start="00:01:21.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to implement much more of Emacs in Lisp""" start="00:01:23.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""than is currently feasible.""" start="00:01:25.683" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Of course, this raises the question of""" start="00:01:29.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""why Guile is suitable for this project.""" start="00:01:31.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""And we chose Guile for a few reasons.""" start="00:01:34.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile is primarily a Scheme implementation,""" start="00:01:36.683" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but it also has built-in support for multiple languages""" start="00:01:39.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""using its compiler tower.""" start="00:01:42.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""To add support for a new language to Guile,""" start="00:01:43.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""you only have to write a compiler""" start="00:01:46.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""from the source language to Tree-IL,""" start="00:01:50.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which is essentially a low-level,""" start="00:01:52.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""minimal representation of Scheme.""" start="00:01:55.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""All of Guile's compiler optimizations""" start="00:01:58.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""occur at the Tree-IL layer or lower,""" start="00:02:01.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""so you don't need to worry""" start="00:02:04.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""about the lower-level details of the compiler""" start="00:02:06.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""when initially implementing your language.""" start="00:02:09.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile also has some Lisp features""" start="00:02:12.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that are very rare in Scheme implementations.""" start="00:02:14.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""For example, it has a nil value""" start="00:02:18.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that counts as both false and an empty list,""" start="00:02:20.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""just like in Elisp,""" start="00:02:23.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and it also has a version of the Common Lisp Object System""" start="00:02:25.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and its metaobject protocol, which is called GOOPS.""" start="00:02:30.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The idea of Guile-Emacs has a pretty long history,""" start="00:02:37.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""going back at least three decades.""" start="00:02:40.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""There have been about""" start="00:02:43.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""half a dozen previous implementation attempts.""" start="00:02:44.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But the current iteration began with""" start="00:02:48.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""a series of six Summer of Code internships:""" start="00:02:49.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Daniel Kraft's in 2009,""" start="00:02:52.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and then my internships from 2010 to 2014.""" start="00:02:56.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""My basic implementation strategy""" start="00:03:01.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""was pretty straightforward.""" start="00:03:03.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""I implemented a core subset of Elisp,""" start="00:03:05.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which was enough to run some batch mode programs""" start="00:03:07.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""outside of Emacs.""" start="00:03:10.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""In Emacs, I modified the garbage collector""" start="00:03:12.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and the data structures for Lisp objects""" start="00:03:15.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to use their libguile equivalents.""" start="00:03:18.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""I replaced Emacs' Lisp evaluator""" start="00:03:23.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""with the one provided by Guile Elisp.""" start="00:03:26.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""After a little over a year of work,""" start="00:03:32.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""at the end of the 2014 internship,""" start="00:03:34.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""I ended up with a fully functional prototype of Guile-Emacs.""" start="00:03:37.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It used Guile Elisp alone as its Lisp implementation""" start="00:03:44.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and was completely compatible with Emacs functionality""" start="00:03:48.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and with external extensions.""" start="00:03:53.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""One caveat was that performance was pretty bad,""" start="00:03:56.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""because I was focused on correctness,""" start="00:03:59.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as well as ease of integration with the Emacs C code.""" start="00:04:03.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But it was nonetheless a major milestone for the project.""" start="00:04:07.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Let's take just a moment to look at Guile-Elisp.""" start="00:04:11.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""For starters, we have access to Guile modules.""" start="00:04:19.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If we call Guile's <i>version</i> function,""" start="00:04:23.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we can see that we're running under Guile 3.0.""" start="00:04:25.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We have access to some of the numeric tower""" start="00:04:30.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""via the arithmetic functions. We also have multiple values.""" start="00:04:33.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We have to be careful to use Guile's <i>values</i> procedure here,""" start="00:04:39.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""not the CL library's,""" start="00:04:43.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but you can see that this works properly""" start="00:04:46.683" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""rather than being an emulation.""" start="00:04:48.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Finally, we have tail call elimination.""" start="00:04:51.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Naturally, we're going to use factorial to demonstrate it.""" start="00:04:54.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If <i>n</i> is zero, return the answer,""" start="00:05:02.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""else recurse with <i>n</i> less one and <i>n</i> times <i>a</i>.""" start="00:05:05.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Of course, this definition works correctly,""" start="00:05:14.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but it gets more interesting""" start="00:05:16.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""if we communicate the answer with an error,""" start="00:05:18.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in order to look at a backtrace.""" start="00:05:25.100" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""You can see here that there are""" start="00:05:29.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""no calls to <i>fact</i> visible in between""" start="00:05:32.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the request to evaluate""" start="00:05:35.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and the error communicating the answer.""" start="00:05:37.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""That's because this tail call""" start="00:05:42.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""has been optimized into effectively a goto.""" start="00:05:44.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""This is essential for any kind""" start="00:05:48.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of serious functional programming.""" start="00:05:54.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""That's a peek at Guile-Elisp.""" start="00:06:00.116" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""In 2015, I left university to go work on web technologies,""" start="00:06:03.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and the project was dormant for a very long time.""" start="00:06:08.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But that's been changing recently.""" start="00:06:11.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""During the last few months,""" start="00:06:13.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""I've been working with Larry Valkama""" start="00:06:16.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to rebase Guile-Emacs""" start="00:06:17.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""onto the development branch of upstream Emacs,""" start="00:06:20.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""including the past decade's worth of upstream development.""" start="00:06:24.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""What we've ended up with is a series of""" start="00:06:29.683" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""rebases onto different versions of Emacs.""" start="00:06:34.267" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The older ones tend to work pretty well.""" start="00:06:37.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The newer ones have increasingly bad problems""" start="00:06:39.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""where they haven't been properly adjusted""" start="00:06:46.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for changes in the Emacs implementation.""" start="00:06:49.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But we do have by now a version of Emacs 30""" start="00:06:52.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which boots correctly""" start="00:06:56.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and can be used for interactive debugging,""" start="00:06:57.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as well as the ability to bisect the revisions of Emacs""" start="00:06:59.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and find out where regressions were introduced.""" start="00:07:06.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Our immediate goal is of course to complete the rebase.""" start="00:07:10.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""At the same time,""" start="00:07:14.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we want to improve Guile Elisp's performance""" start="00:07:16.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to at least be competitive with ordinary Emacs Lisp.""" start="00:07:20.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Just to characterize the performance situation,""" start="00:07:24.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile Elisp is usually about half""" start="00:07:29.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as fast as ordinary Elisp,""" start="00:07:32.766" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""while Guile Scheme is quite often""" start="00:07:34.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""an order of magnitude faster than ordinary Elisp,""" start="00:07:37.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and that's based on micro benchmarks""" start="00:07:41.350" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""like the Gabriel benchmarks.""" start="00:07:43.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But there's clearly a lot of room""" start="00:07:46.233" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to improve our compiler's output.""" start="00:07:50.900" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If you want to mark your calendars,""" start="00:07:53.350" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we're expecting to have a usable version of Guile-Emacs 30""" start="00:07:56.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""out sometime next spring.""" start="00:08:00.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We're also going to put some effort""" start="00:08:03.116" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""into either extracting old work""" start="00:08:05.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""or doing new work that could be contributed upstream.""" start="00:08:09.100" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""On the Guile side, we'll probably start out with""" start="00:08:12.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""optimizing the dynamic binding facilities,""" start="00:08:16.750" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which are used very seldom in Scheme,""" start="00:08:21.233" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but are used all the time in traditional Lisp dialects.""" start="00:08:23.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""On the Emacs side, we'll be working initially""" start="00:08:27.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""on abstracting away the details of the Lisp implementation""" start="00:08:31.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""where they're not relevant.""" start="00:08:35.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""And that will clean up the Emacs code base a bit.""" start="00:08:37.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It'll make it easier to integrate Emacs and Guile Elisp.""" start="00:08:40.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It will probably be helpful for anyone""" start="00:08:45.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""who is working on ordinary Elisp on their own.""" start="00:08:47.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We're also going to be adding new features to Emacs Lisp.""" start="00:08:51.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We've seen a few of them already.""" start="00:08:57.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The numeric tower, tail call optimization,""" start="00:08:59.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Common Lisp compatibility.""" start="00:09:02.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We're also going to provide access to Fibers,""" start="00:09:04.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which is a Guile library based on ideas from Concurrent ML""" start="00:09:07.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that provides much more powerful facilities""" start="00:09:12.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for concurrent and parallel programming""" start="00:09:15.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""than what Emacs currently offers.""" start="00:09:18.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""This plan meets Guile-Emacs' basic goals,""" start="00:09:24.666" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and it's work that we could maybe get integrated upstream""" start="00:09:32.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in a reasonable amount of time.""" start="00:09:36.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But it's also worth considering what more we can do,""" start="00:09:38.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and what effect Guile-Emacs might have on Emacs""" start="00:09:42.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""if it becomes simply Emacs.""" start="00:09:46.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""For context, the amount of C code in Emacs""" start="00:09:50.666" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""has increased by around 50% in the last decade,""" start="00:09:54.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and now it constitutes around a quarter of the code base.""" start="00:09:57.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""C can be a bit of a barrier""" start="00:09:59.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to customizing and extending Emacs.""" start="00:10:06.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""For example, there are about 1500 C subroutines.""" start="00:10:11.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Around 500 are used in C code,""" start="00:10:15.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as well as available to Lisp code,""" start="00:10:19.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and being written in C means""" start="00:10:23.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that they can't be practically redefined.""" start="00:10:25.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""The use of C can become a barrier to extending Emacs""" start="00:10:28.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""or customizing its behavior.""" start="00:10:34.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We might consider writing""" start="00:10:36.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as much of Emacs as possible in Lisp.""" start="00:10:39.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""One way to speed up this process""" start="00:10:42.916" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""would be to provide a Common Lisp implementation for Guile.""" start="00:10:46.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Note that between Guile Elisp and Guile Scheme,""" start="00:10:49.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we have all of the essential ingredients""" start="00:10:54.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for a Common Lisp environment. We can also share code""" start="00:10:57.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""with other Common Lisp implementations""" start="00:11:03.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""such as SBCL and SICL.""" start="00:11:06.016" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Overall, the duration of the project""" start="00:11:10.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""will be better measured in months rather than years,""" start="00:11:13.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""despite Common Lisp's reputation""" start="00:11:16.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for being a large language.""" start="00:11:19.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""This could have multiple uses, of course.""" start="00:11:21.216" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It could be a model for future improvements to Elisp,""" start="00:11:24.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""because Elisp and CL can interact directly without problems.""" start="00:11:29.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""And it would be very easy for Elisp""" start="00:11:34.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to borrow language features from Common Lisp.""" start="00:11:38.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But for the purpose of a C to Lisp transition,""" start="00:11:41.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""it would also provide us with instant access""" start="00:11:46.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to a huge number of high-quality libraries""" start="00:11:50.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for things that""" start="00:11:52.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile is not necessarily equipped to deal with,""" start="00:11:54.850" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""such as access to low-level Windows APIs,""" start="00:11:58.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as well as lots of other libraries,""" start="00:12:01.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""such as interfaces to GUI toolkits""" start="00:12:05.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for a variety of operating systems.""" start="00:12:10.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""At a certain point, this has technical advantages.""" start="00:12:13.866" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If most of Emacs is written in Lisp,""" start="00:12:20.566" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""then we could consider using Guile Hoot""" start="00:12:24.216" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to compile Emacs to WebAssembly,""" start="00:12:27.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""making it available perhaps in web browsers""" start="00:12:29.683" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""or on systems with the WebAssembly System Interface.""" start="00:12:33.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But it would also be a great victory""" start="00:12:37.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for practical software freedom.""" start="00:12:41.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""That's the idea that Freedom One,""" start="00:12:43.050" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the freedom to study and modify programs,""" start="00:12:45.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""should not just be legally and technically possible,""" start="00:12:48.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but should be actively encouraged""" start="00:12:51.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""by our computing environments.""" start="00:12:53.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs is really one of the archetypal examples of this,""" start="00:12:57.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but we can and should go further.""" start="00:13:00.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""When Emacs is implemented primarily in Lisp,""" start="00:13:03.216" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the entirety of the system""" start="00:13:08.400" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""will be transparent to examination""" start="00:13:11.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and open to modification.""" start="00:13:14.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Every part of Emacs will be instantaneously inspectable,""" start="00:13:16.083" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""redefinable, and debuggable.""" start="00:13:21.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""This will be a fundamental change""" start="00:13:25.016" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in what is possible to do with Emacs extensions.""" start="00:13:28.283" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""For example, one experiment I'd be interested in""" start="00:13:32.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""is using the Common Lisp Interface Manager""" start="00:13:37.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as the basis for Emacs's user interface.""" start="00:13:40.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Screwlisp is giving a talk about McCLIM later today,""" start="00:13:43.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but for present purposes,""" start="00:13:48.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""just think of it as a super-powered version""" start="00:13:53.250" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of Emacs's concept of interactive functions.""" start="00:13:55.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It would be a pretty long-term project""" start="00:13:58.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in Emacs as it currently exists,""" start="00:14:02.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but it would be almost trivial""" start="00:14:04.800" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""if Emacs were customizable at the lowest layers via Lisp.""" start="00:14:06.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We'll certainly be looking at the practicality""" start="00:14:12.650" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of these kinds of changes""" start="00:14:19.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as we continue developing Guile-Emacs.""" start="00:14:20.966" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Finally, how can you get involved""" start="00:14:25.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""with and support Guile Emacs?""" start="00:14:30.033" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""One way to help is just by trying it out""" start="00:14:32.500" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and letting us know what your experiences are like.""" start="00:14:35.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""There will be a snapshot available""" start="00:14:37.816" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""on the Codeberg project site""" start="00:14:41.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of the version that I'm using to give this presentation.""" start="00:14:44.266" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""It will be available both as a Guix package""" start="00:14:47.000" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and as a portable tarball. This will be more interesting""" start="00:14:51.133" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""as we get closer to a complete rebase.""" start="00:14:55.933" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We're also always happy to talk to potential contributors""" start="00:15:00.366" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""or potential collaborators from other projects.""" start="00:15:06.533" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""We can always use bug reports,""" start="00:15:12.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and we're interested in what kind of features""" start="00:15:16.450" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""people actually want to see in Guile-Emacs.""" start="00:15:18.883" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Guile-Emacs is also being developed""" start="00:15:21.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""by a small worker cooperative,""" start="00:15:25.300" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""so donations are a pretty direct way to support the project.""" start="00:15:27.916" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If you do nothing else, I recommend going to the website""" start="00:15:33.200" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and subscribing to our mailing lists""" start="00:15:37.166" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""so that you can keep up with news on the project.""" start="00:15:40.733" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""If you're watching this at EmacsConf,""" start="00:15:45.600" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""there will be a Q&A session immediately following this,""" start="00:15:47.333" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and thanks for watching!""" start="00:15:50.483" video="mainVideo-guile" id="subtitle"]]

</div>

Captioner: sachac and robin

<div class="transcript transcript-qanda"><a name="guile-qanda-transcript"></a><h1>Q&A transcript (unedited)</h1>

[[!template text="""All right. Hey, thanks for bearing with us there. We had a""" start="00:00:00.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""couple of bumps in the road, a cross between a couple of""" start="00:00:08.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""different versions of our program that we deliver here,""" start="00:00:11.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""different ways that we bring this stream together between""" start="00:00:13.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the recorded content that that speakers are putting""" start="00:00:17.960" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""together in advance in the live content, such as what you're""" start="00:00:22.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""seeing right here. So thanks go to Sacha and Leo, and""" start="00:00:26.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""everybody behind the stages gluing it all together. And""" start="00:00:31.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we're back here now, and I'm speaking with Robin, who us""" start="00:00:34.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""ready to take on some of your questions and address some of""" start="00:00:40.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the comments over here on the etherpad. If you want to jump in""" start="00:00:42.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""there, there's links in the chat. And thanks so much, Robin,""" start="00:00:46.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for your talk. And it's also been a pleasure chatting with""" start="00:00:51.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""you just a little bit over the last couple of months on IRC.""" start="00:00:54.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Yeah, absolutely. Great meeting you.""" start="00:00:57.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""All right. All right, everyone. I think I am streaming now.""" start="00:01:33.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""So let's look at it. Let's see. I see the IRC scrolling. So""" start="00:01:37.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""let's see where that's going. Yes, the Common Lisp is what I""" start="00:01:42.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""thought would piss people off. And because it's not part of""" start="00:01:47.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""either community, but I think it would be a good compromise""" start="00:01:50.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""for building a Lisp into a language that's more suitable for""" start="00:01:54.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""building large systems like the kind that we are building in""" start="00:01:57.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs today. I also left out an important part of the talk,""" start="00:02:01.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""which is part of the motivation for transitioning from C to""" start="00:02:07.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lisp. And that's the performance characteristics""" start="00:02:12.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""fundamentally change when you get a modern and high""" start="00:02:15.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""performance Lisp system involved. it starts getting less""" start="00:02:19.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""practical to just call out to C to speed up every operation.""" start="00:02:23.560" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Among other things, you lose the ability to use more""" start="00:02:27.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""advanced control structures, like the limited""" start="00:02:31.560" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""continuations. And you also have to pay the overhead of""" start="00:02:34.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""calling out to our foreign function. So it gets to be an""" start="00:02:40.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""increasingly better deal to optimize your list""" start="00:02:43.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""implementation and provide ways for building faster list""" start="00:02:47.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""programs, such as type annotations, once you've gotten""" start="00:02:52.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""over a certain threshold of performance.""" start="00:02:55.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: About fibers: My understanding is that the problem with making Elisp concurrent is that none of the data structures (buffer, cons, vector, window etc) are concurrency-safe.  How do fibers help with this?""" start="00:03:01.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""I'm going to look at the pad. Here we go. The first question is""" start="00:03:01.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""about fibers and whether they help with making Elisp""" start="00:03:07.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""concurrent in terms of its data structures. Yes, that's""" start="00:03:12.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""absolutely correct. Fibers by themselves do not provide""" start="00:03:18.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""thread safety for any of the existing Emacs data""" start="00:03:23.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""structures. What they are useful for is building things""" start="00:03:26.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that don't use Emacs data structures, say a network client""" start="00:03:32.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that reads input from a stream or in scheme, a port or a stream""" start="00:03:38.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""instead of a buffer. And we can also take a look at options for""" start="00:03:44.560" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""making more Emacs features concurrency safe or thread""" start="00:03:49.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""safe. For example, we could introduce the idea of a thread""" start="00:03:54.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""local buffer that didn't require locks for sharing between""" start="00:03:58.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""different threads. And I'm not sure how that would develop,""" start="00:04:03.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""but I'm sure the Emacs maintainers already have some ideas""" start="00:04:09.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""in this direction. Fibers will basically provide a""" start="00:04:12.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""high-performance system that you can use apart from""" start="00:04:17.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""ordinary Emacs-less constructs.""" start="00:04:22.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: Do you have a rough idea of how much of Guile is written in C?""" start="00:04:28.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""Let's see. We have another question. Emacs is roughly 25% C.""" start="00:04:28.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""How much of Guile is in C?""" start="00:04:34.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Well, part of my point about C is not so much that there, well,""" start="00:04:38.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""obviously, I phrased it a little provocatively, but the""" start="00:04:45.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""problem is not so much that there is C, but that there is so""" start="00:04:50.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""much C involved in every single layer of the application.""" start="00:04:54.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""So, for example, we're limited in our ability to use tools""" start="00:05:00.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""like limit continuations, which can be used to express""" start="00:05:04.560" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""buffer local variable binding in a few dozen lines, because""" start="00:05:08.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs has so much calling back and forth between guile and C,""" start="00:05:13.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""due to so much basic functionality being in primitive C""" start="00:05:21.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""subroutines. So that's one issue apart from the question of""" start="00:05:26.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""how much is in a particular language. To answer the question""" start="00:05:34.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""about Guile, Guile has about 165,000 lines of scheme code""" start="00:05:38.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and about 160,000 lines of C code, so it's about half and""" start="00:05:45.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""half. And that shouldn't really be surprising given that it""" start="00:05:51.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""is actually focused on low-level things like building a""" start="00:05:55.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""high-performance bytecode compiler, and a just-in-time""" start="00:06:00.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""compiler, and so on, as well as providing its own fairly""" start="00:06:05.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""rich, but still far less complete than Emacs's standard""" start="00:06:09.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""library, in terms of Ice9 and other system libraries""" start="00:06:15.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: A Common Lisp implementation for Guile sounds really cool! Is there already work on this underway?""" start="00:06:19.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""shipped with Guile. The next question is on a Common Lisp""" start="00:06:19.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""implementation for Guile, and whether work on it is""" start="00:06:24.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""underway. In fact, work on it is already underway. I've been""" start="00:06:27.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""working on it on and off in my spare time for a couple of years""" start="00:06:33.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""now. I've gotten, I think, a couple of chapters of the""" start="00:06:36.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""hyperspectin, if you want to measure it that way. But I've""" start="00:06:40.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""been focusing my work more on research and on what we need to""" start="00:06:43.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""do to have a LISP environment, a polyglot LISP environment,""" start="00:06:51.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""wherein the features of Common Lisp and Scheme and Emacs""" start="00:06:57.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lisp can all work easily and ergonomically together. So""" start="00:07:02.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""this involves things like the question of Lisps having""" start="00:07:08.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lisp1s versus Lisp2s. That is, a Lisp1-like scheme has one""" start="00:07:13.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""namespace, like every variable is a single name that can""" start="00:07:22.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""refer to one value, whereas in Lisp2s like EmacsLisp,""" start="00:07:27.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""symbols can have different definitions as functions and as""" start="00:07:32.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""variables, as well as other namespaces like property""" start="00:07:37.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""lists. So Kent Pittman has some interesting thoughts on""" start="00:07:41.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""this that I've been looking into. Another issue is the""" start="00:07:45.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""interaction between package and module systems. So I don't""" start="00:07:51.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""have really anything ready to publish just yet on this, but I""" start="00:07:57.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""have been looking into the background issues of""" start="00:08:01.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""integrating this into Guile in a useful way.""" start="00:08:05.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""And let's see, one other thing I was going to mention.""" start="00:08:08.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Okay, I've lost it. But yeah, there is some work already. And""" start="00:08:15.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""if people are interested in moving Emacs in this direction,""" start="00:08:27.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""then we'll certainly start working on it in earnest.""" start="00:08:30.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: Did switching from guile 2 to 3 give any performance benefits?""" start="00:08:34.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""Another question, did switching from Guile 2 to 3 give any""" start="00:08:34.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""performance benefits? Well, honestly, we're not really""" start="00:08:41.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""benchmarking stuff here because Guile Emacs has so much""" start="00:08:46.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""overhead from structuring the compiler to closely conform""" start="00:08:50.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to Emacs in terms of like even things as simple as metadata""" start="00:08:55.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""layout for variable information.""" start="00:08:59.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""So I haven't actually noticed a perceptual change. I would""" start="00:09:03.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""guess based on the Gabriel benchmark results that is""" start="00:09:12.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""benefited from what somewhat from Gal 3's performance""" start="00:09:15.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""improvements but for Emacs I just don't know yet and working""" start="00:09:21.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""on the compiler's code generation and lowering the""" start="00:09:27.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""overhead is going to be the thing that provides the most""" start="00:09:30.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""return for improving that aspect of Gal Emacs.""" start="00:09:33.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Let's see, I see SICL mentioned here, as well as SPCL. And it""" start="00:09:37.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""could certainly help with the implementation of""" start="00:09:54.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Commonwealth and Guile, because a lot of the basic stuff is""" start="00:09:56.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""just providing a new interface to some bit of""" start="00:10:01.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""functionality. Like the sequence library, it's mostly""" start="00:10:05.560" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""stuff that we already have through SR5 and so on. The""" start="00:10:08.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""difficult, well, not the difficult but the time consuming""" start="00:10:13.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""parts are going to be all the little DSL sitcom on this path""" start="00:10:16.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""packed up inside it like pretty printing format loop and so""" start="00:10:21.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""on. It's for those high-level features that I think we could""" start="00:10:27.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""potentially share code with other Common Lisp""" start="00:10:32.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""implementations. And Common Lisp implementations do tend""" start="00:10:34.960" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to be permissively licensed, SPCL's public domain, for""" start="00:10:39.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""example, so there's no barrier to sharing code with them.""" start="00:10:43.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: Do you know if the Emacs maintainers are interested in switching to Guile as the engine for Emacs Lisp?""" start="00:10:46.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""There's another question about whether the Emacs""" start="00:10:46.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""maintainers are interested in switching to Guile as the""" start="00:10:52.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""engine for Emacs Lisp. I can't speak for the current""" start="00:10:55.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""maintainers. I can say that people have talked to previous""" start="00:10:59.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs maintainers about the whole idea, and their attitude""" start="00:11:05.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""was generally cautiously optimistic. As in, it's not""" start="00:11:10.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""something they, it's somewhat political, they didn't want""" start="00:11:15.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to get into it, but they didn't think that it was a bad idea,""" start="00:11:18.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and they wanted to know more about how it might evolve in the""" start="00:11:23.480" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""future. I can comment that Eli Zaretsky, who I believe is the""" start="00:11:25.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""current Emacs maintainer, is very concerned about""" start="00:11:31.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""cross-platform compatibility. And so if I can guess at his""" start="00:11:36.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""priorities correctly, I think that that's something that""" start="00:11:44.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we'll have to make sure is rock solid before we propose any""" start="00:11:48.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""kind of upstreaming of Gala Emacs. but in general""" start="00:11:52.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""maintainers have been cautious but curious. So I just""" start="00:11:58.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""wanted to break in and note at this point that as lives I""" start="00:12:03.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""didn't sorry I couldn't do so more gracefully while we were""" start="00:12:06.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""still on stream but I wanted to let you know that just as of 10""" start="00:12:09.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""seconds ago or so we've had to cut away into our next talk but""" start="00:12:13.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we can keep going here as long as we like. Okay, let's wrap up.""" start="00:12:17.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""There's only a couple questions left on the pad, so I'll""" start="00:12:22.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""answer those, and then I'll be available on IRC. So, the next""" start="00:12:25.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: Do you think guile-emacs will be able to use or (collaborate with) some of the other awesome projects around Emacs Lisp?""" start="00:12:30.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""question is whether Guile Emacs will be able to collaborate""" start="00:12:30.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""with projects like Gypsum and""" start="00:12:33.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the native compilation projects or the pre-scheme""" start="00:12:35.960" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""efforts. Oh, yes, that is one of the things I forgot to bring""" start="00:12:44.320" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""up in my talk. So, first of all, Gypsum is approaching a""" start="00:12:48.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""similar idea from a different direction. And we clearly""" start="00:12:53.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""have a different focus. My focus is on improving Emacs Lisp""" start="00:12:58.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and making Emacs itself better by integrating Guile Elisp""" start="00:13:03.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""and Emacs, rather than replacing eLisp or deprecating it in""" start="00:13:09.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""any way. But given gypsum's requirements, I do think that we""" start="00:13:15.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""could share a lot of code required for emulating basic Emacs""" start="00:13:20.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""functionality. And this could even become interesting if""" start="00:13:26.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we get to the point of rewriting parts of Emacs in Lisp. With""" start="00:13:29.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""respect to the native compilation effort, I'm familiar""" start="00:13:35.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""with it. I'm not that impressed with the results of it. It's a""" start="00:13:41.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""very impressive effort, but as far as I can tell, it's""" start="00:13:45.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""accelerating a bytecode interpreter that just simply has""" start="00:13:52.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""an out-of-date design, to be quite blunt. It's possible""" start="00:13:57.240" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that Emacs's JIT has ideas that Guile should adopt, like""" start="00:14:02.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""perhaps libgccjit might perhaps be better than GNU""" start="00:14:08.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lightning, which is a relatively simple JIT that Guile""" start="00:14:14.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""uses.""" start="00:14:17.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But it doesn't have to have a direct relationship to Guile""" start="00:14:17.640" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs. And as far as pre-scheme goes, I have been watching""" start="00:14:25.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Flat Watson's work on pre-scheme with great interest""" start="00:14:31.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""because Scheme 48 used to be my favorite implementation.""" start="00:14:36.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""And I do think that it could be, it's a tool that we should look""" start="00:14:40.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""at when we're thinking about moving functionality into""" start="00:14:44.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lisp and could certainly make it easier to upstream some of""" start="00:14:47.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""the work we may end up doing.""" start="00:14:53.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""All right, do we have more questions?""" start="00:14:54.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

<div class="transcript-heading">[[!template new="1" text="""Q: SBCL, ...You mentioned Robert Strandh's SICL along with SBCL---does that work help with the implementation of CL in Guile?""" start="00:15:04.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]</div>[[!template text="""There's a question about SICL and SBCL. I think I answered""" start="00:15:04.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that earlier. It should help us implement Common Lisp when""" start="00:15:13.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""it comes to high-level features and the various large""" start="00:15:17.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""subcomponents of Common Lisp. Another important factor is""" start="00:15:25.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""that Guile already has decent support for the Common Lisp""" start="00:15:28.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""object system. Without that, it would be far more""" start="00:15:32.280" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""difficult. But I do expect that we can share code with other""" start="00:15:35.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Common Lisp implementations. I've personally rated""" start="00:15:41.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Common Lisp compiler code when working on Guile Hoot, for""" start="00:15:44.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""example. So there are definitely places where they can""" start="00:15:49.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""contribute.""" start="00:15:52.960" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Regarding the Hoot project and its relationship to""" start="00:15:54.040" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Galimax, it's a purely speculative thing. First of all,""" start="00:16:02.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Hoot is only tested on Scheme-to-WebAssembly""" start="00:16:11.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""compilations. I've heard some suggestions that some uses""" start="00:16:17.080" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of Tree.io may not be compatible with the Hoot compiler. I'm""" start="00:16:22.600" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""not sure if that's the case or not.""" start="00:16:26.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""But it is a complete enough project that if Emacs is, say, 90%""" start="00:16:30.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Lisp, there's only a few thousand lines of C code to""" start="00:16:41.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""implement, then it would be entirely practical to compile""" start="00:16:45.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs WebAssembly, as long as we had a back end, like one""" start="00:16:49.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""based on the browser's document object model, or some sort""" start="00:16:54.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""of graphical interface through WASI. And that may have some""" start="00:16:58.120" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""interesting applications for portability to unusual""" start="00:17:04.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""platforms. It may even bring performance advantages in""" start="00:17:07.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""cases where the WebAssembly implementation is connected""" start="00:17:11.360" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""to a tracing just-in-time compiler, because that may be""" start="00:17:18.960" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""more appropriate to the high level of dynamism the Emacs""" start="00:17:22.760" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""list has than the kind of simple template JITs that both""" start="00:17:26.840" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Emacs and Guile are using.""" start="00:17:32.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""What a fascinating point. Just to break into active""" start="00:17:34.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""listening a little so this doesn't, to you, feel like you're""" start="00:17:39.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""talking to yourself. I can see from chat and the questions""" start="00:17:44.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""still coming in, you know, comments. You know, it isn't, but""" start="00:17:46.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""I just want you to be able to hear and feel that. Yeah, great,""" start="00:17:51.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""great point there. All right. Thank you. And yes, if there""" start="00:17:55.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""are more questions, keep throwing them at me. I should""" start="00:18:00.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""probably also mention I will have to jump out myself, but the""" start="00:18:04.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""recording will automatically end when we all jump out or""" start="00:18:08.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""just drop a note anywhere, ping me, whatever. And I'll come""" start="00:18:10.800" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""along and shut off the recording and we'll trim it up before""" start="00:18:15.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""we publish it. I'm looking forward to reading through""" start="00:18:18.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""anything I do miss. Thank you. Sounds good.""" start="00:18:21.880" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""All right, I'm not seeing changes in the etherpad. So I'm""" start="00:18:30.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""going to close this in maybe 30 seconds if there are no more""" start="00:19:08.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""additions. Thanks, everyone, for the interesting and very""" start="00:19:15.000" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""pointed questions on some of the most significant areas. I""" start="00:19:21.160" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""appreciate everyone's feedback. I'm glad this provoked so""" start="00:19:26.400" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""much curiosity in people.""" start="00:19:31.920" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""Thank you, janneke.""" start="00:19:33.680" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""All right, I think we are done with the Q&A session, so I'm""" start="00:19:44.520" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""going to close this BBB and we can continue with the rest of""" start="00:19:51.440" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""EmacsConf.""" start="00:19:57.200" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]
[[!template text="""You are currently the only person in this conference.""" start="00:19:58.720" video="qanda-guile" id="subtitle"]]

</div>Questions or comments? Please e-mail [robin@terpri.org](mailto:robin@terpri.org?subject=Comment%20for%20EmacsConf%202023%20guile%3A%20Beguiling%20Emacs%3A%20Guile-Emacs%20relaunched%21)


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