path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-rust--an-experimental-emacs-core-in-rust--troy-hinckley--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

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Okay, so I'm going to look at some of the questions showing up

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in the etherpad we got here.

NOTE Q: Have you considered using CRDTs to share buffers between threads and merge any concurrent edits automatically?

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It says, have you considered

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using a CRDT to share buffers between threads and merge any

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concurrent edits automatically? So I have looked at that.

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And the problem with CRDTs is that even though they give you a

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mathematically correct answer when you're trying to merge

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two conflicts, it's not always a useful answer. Like, it's

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not coherent. If you have two things trying to edit the same

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thing, there's no good way to resolve that. And so they

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really work well when you have two people working live, both

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editing the same document, because they can fix any

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particular issues like that, like you would with Google

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Docs. But you have different packages that aren't aware of

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each other, and you're going to run into problems. And so

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this is something, if you read from the Xi editor, which was

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one of the first ones to use CRDTs, in the retrospective, he

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talks about how they had this problem, where the CRDTs They

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give you an answer, but it's not always an answer that's

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useful. And so I feel like locks at least are going to make it.

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It's not going to be as efficient if you have a whole bunch of

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packages, but I don't imagine there's going to be a ton of

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those. It can actually, I think it'll be more useful in

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practice.

NOTE Q: Why hosted on GitHub? GitHub is nonfree. Is it possible to report bugs/send patches without using GitHub?

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I host on GitHub because that's what I know.

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If there's a way to host it on somewhere else, I'd be

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interested in doing that. If you're interested in setting

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patches without using GitHub, you could always send an

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email. I'm more than happy to accept email patches.

NOTE Q: Do you think it's possible to achieve 100% compatibility with current Emacs code?

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Do you think it's possible to achieve with the current Emacs

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code? I do. I think, I think you can do that. Um, like I said,

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there's a couple things inside there that are intentional

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breaks with existing Emacs code. And some of those being

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like functions are immutable. As well as having data shared

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switch between different threads, which means there's

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going to be some copying going on. So there's going to be

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subtle things that are going to be different. And we've

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really got to think about those intentionally, but I'm

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really going for bug compatibility with GNU Emacs so that

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you can take an existing Elisp package and just run it and it

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just works, 'cause I think that's one of the big strengths of

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the Emacs ecosystem is the millions of lines of Elisp that

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people have written.

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Um, So I'm not, okay...

NOTE Q: so you're re-implementing elisp in rust? have you considered using a more modern lisp, such as scheme? [11:03]

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So since you're re-implementing Elisp and

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Rust, have you considered using more modern Lisp such as

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Scheme? So I'm not re-implementing Elisp and Rust. I'm

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re-implementing the C in Rust. In fact, I would like to make

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more of the core that's written in C in Elisp instead of C or

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Rust, because then it's actually introspectible. There's

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a talk by Tom Tromney that he gave a while ago about Emacs

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should be Emacs Lisp. I kind of like that philosophy,

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that as much of it as should be Elisp as possible, and we

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should only have C or Rust or some systems level language for

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really low-level stuff. Using a more modern LISP such as

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Scheme. I know there's, I mean, there's two talks, I think,

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in this conference about using Scheme inside Emacs. And I

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looked at this at one point about what if you wrote it inside

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Common LISP, because that's also has some really low level

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details. And then you could go from Elisp down to Common

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Lisp. But the problem is, is under the hood, you still need a

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systems language. You can't, you still need either C or Rust

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or something underneath the Common Lisp to implement the

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primitives. And so it's not going to give you just two

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languages, you know, you'll have three. You'll have the

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elisp, common lisp, and C under the hood. And so in this case

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we just have the two. We have the Elisp and the rest.

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All right that's all the questions I see there. Let

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me go look at... Okay,

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so I see into the chat.

NOTE Q: Do you have specific features from the Rust compiler that are missing (or are nightly-only) that you would take advantage of?

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Does it features from the Rust compiler that are missing

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that way you would take advantage of? Oh, that is a great

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question. Um, there's a handful of them. Uh, I should've

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written down a list of these. One of them is Polonius, which

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is the new borrow checker because we're trying to be used

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lifetime to track our objects. We often run into situations

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where we've kind of got a hack around things because the

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limitations with the borrow checker. And so I have a whole

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bunch of like notes inside there about where. A better

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Polonius would help inside there and help ease some of the

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issues. Another thing is enum variances types, because

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right now we have an object which is defined as a big enum that

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had all the possible objects, but if we want to have a subset

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of those objects or just pass in one of those objects, we've

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got to define a new struct. And so we have a whole bunch of

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boilerplate code to define that all out. And if we had

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variances types, that would make the code a lot easier.

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Another one is the allocator API. Right now we're kind of

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working around it, but ultimately we're going to need our

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own allocator. And the allocator API is still nightly only.

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So there's a couple more. I'll look at that more, but that's a

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great question.

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Let's see.

NOTE Q: Can remacs be reused?

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Okay. I see a question you might not have noticed just asking

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about reuse of Remacs. Oh, yes, so I have reused some of Remacs

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code, and some taken, like I mentioned, taken some of their

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ideas, but ultimately we're using a different model

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because under the hood in Remacs, everything is just defined

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as an opaque external type that's defined inside Emacs and

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so it just pulls those in interacts with those and passes

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them back into C. We're trying to see what we can do if we

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say okay we're not going to take the same... So they're bound to

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the implementation details of Emacs, and we don't want to do

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that. We've re-implemented all the core types

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ourselves. So that means that we can't just take the

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Remacs code one for one and use it in our project, but we can

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take a lot of their ideas. I've spent some time reading

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through their documentation, different things about how

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they approached strings and GC

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and different stuff like that.

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Looks like all the questions.

NOTE Q: What are you thoughts on the GUI layer. Any plans on how to reimplement it?

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Okay, so another question. What are your thoughts on the GUI

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layer? Any plans on how to reimplement it? This is something

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I've thought a lot about, but I still don't have a solid plan

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for. I'm not really a GUI person. I mostly work with

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low-level. And so my two thoughts is you can go the GTK route.

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There's Rust bindings for that. That's well understood.

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It's got a good support. But there's also some interesting

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projects to try and do GUI in Rust, native Rust, and have it

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use Rust idioms and stuff like that. And so those are things

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like Druid and there's eGUI and a bunch of those that are that

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way. And I've never used one of them, but I'd be interested to

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try that out first and see how well does this work and how well

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supported is this doing a Rust-first GUI.

NOTE Q: If money could fix the problem, how much would it cost to ship this with feature parity before 2026?

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If money could fix the problem, how much would it cost to ship

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this with feature parity before 2026? Ooh, in a year. Uh,

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that's a good question. Even if we had the money, it would

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take more than just me, even if I was working on it full time.

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Um, I don't know. That's a good question.

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I would think it would take a team

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of at least a handful of people to get this

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shipping within one year. Because there's still a lot of

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work to do. And even once you have everything implemented,

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there's a lot of bug finding and smoothing it out so that it

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runs as well as Emacs, which has been, you know, battle

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tested for a long time.

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Um, okay, so this might be a good moment for me to break in and

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just say that we've got about 10 minutes left before we

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resume new talks on on both tracks. Of course, we're happy to

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keep this. This chat open and keep the recording going here,

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which will share after the conference as long as as long as

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there's discussion here. Thank you.

NOTE GObject implementation

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GTK project has

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automatic binding with a framework called GObject

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introspection, which is what I'm using for gypsum project.

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Probably Rust has a G object implementation, which you can

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use. Yeah, I know it has some GTK bindings. Um, I'm not sure if

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it's specifically GObject, but that's a good path

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because I feel like the problem

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with the Rust GUIs is that they're all

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very new. And so, you know, everything works in a demo, but

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you need something that can work across all different

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devices and all different platforms and have really good

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support and good accessibility and stuff like that.

NOTE Q: elisp is implemented in c, so if you're not implementing elisp in rust, are you using/keeping the c implementation of elisp?

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All right, Elisp is implemented in C. So if you're not

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implementing Elisp in Rust, we're keeping the C

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implementation of Elisp. So let me see if I can do a better job

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of explaining this. So inside Emacs, you have about a

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million lines of Elisp. And underneath that, you have the C,

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which is the primitives everything's implemented yet. And

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so we're keeping all of the Elisp, and we're just taking that

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C layer and replacing it with Rust. And so when you call a

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built-in function, it's calling into a Rust function

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instead of a C function under the hood. So all the Elisp stays

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Elisp, but the C becomes Rust.

NOTE Clarifying rewriting Elisp in Rust

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So looking at the IRC chat, it feels to me like maybe there's a

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little bit of confusion around what do we mean when we say

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rewriting Elisp in Rust, right? I think there are some

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people that are like, A, we're reinventing ELISP, and

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there's other people that are like, no, we're trying to be

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byte-for-byte compatible with Rust.

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So some people are questioning your no answer on that.

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Aren't you really, maybe, is what I'm reading in there.

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Do you want to respond to that?

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Yeah, I'm trying to think about how I can make this

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clearer. So the Elisp stays Elisp. We're not changing the

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Elisp at all, or at least very minimally. We want to be able to

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take, like I said, bug compatible. So whatever works inside

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existing Emacs, you can take all the Lisp and you can run it in

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Rune and it works the same. So the Elisp stays the same. It's

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just the under the hood core that is getting replaced. And

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this in turn adds some new features such as

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multi-threading. So it's not exactly compatible, but

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you should be able to use your existing code and the Elisp will

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stay Elisp. So the idea is that anything that I've written as

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an Emacs user, my config, my custom packages, whatever it

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may be, that's all going to be valid code. If you take, you

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know, the Elisp implementation as being the C code

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and the parts of Elisp written in Elisp

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that represent opportunity space

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thinking about Rust as an implementation language...

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Okay fine. You know, you can make a semantic argument, okay

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we're re-implementing, we're creating

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an alternate implementation of Elisp

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but what Elisp is isn't the problem

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space here. That's a fixed, a given, if you will.

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Is that all right?

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That's a good way of saying it. Okay. Yeah, what you

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said makes sense. I was kind of responding to some comments,

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like I'm not sure it connected for everybody. Makes a lot of

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sense. Yeah, I wasn't sure how much I needed to expand on that

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and explain that, but I appreciate you jumping in.

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Um, okay. So if I were just going to, but...

NOTE Q: Will your Rust implementation also be able to run Emacs bytecode? Or are you implementing it at the Lisp level?

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Will your Rust implementation also be able to run Emacs bytecode or the

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implemented at the Lisp level? So I already have a bytecode

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interpreter inside there that runs the existing Elisp

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bytecode. And so that was one of the first things I did was

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bootstrap the interpreter and then bootstrap the bytecode

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engine. And so we compile, we use the... because the bytecode

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compiler is written in Emacs Lisp. So you bootstrap that

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and it gives you the Emacs bytecode. I have a bytecode

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engine that runs the bytecode. So that's already done. And

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you can potentially, on top of that, do something like the

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data compilation or a JIT. But we have both an

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interpreter and a bytecode compiler.

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And I'll just break in one more time to say with about five

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minutes left in our live time with this Q&A session, which

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we're happy to keep going as long as there are questions.

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Coming up in five minutes, we'll have a talk on color on the

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gen track. And then right here, we'll have the p-search

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talk.

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Thank you.

NOTE Q: Is it possible to bootstrap with just the bytecode interpreter?

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Is it possible to bootstrap with just the bytecode

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interpreter? So I'll have to put in a link to one of my blog

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posts. So that was my original idea was to say, I don't want to

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have an interpreter, a bytecode interpreter and a native

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compiler. I want to just have just one.

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So I'm only going to have the bytecode.

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And so that's what I did initially.

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The problem with that is, is that a bunch of the early bootstrap

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Emacs code is written with the assumption

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that it's going to be interpreted.

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This is especially true with macros,

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where you'll have a function defined,

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you'll evaluate part of the function.

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The other half of the function has macros in it

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that are not defined yet, but it doesn't matter because they

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don't get used. But with the bytecode interpreter, it

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expands all macros when it gets the function definition.

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And so those weren't macros when the function was expanded,

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and therefore they got instantiated as functions, but

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they're not functions, they're macros. And so I initially

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spent a bunch of time trying to work around this, trying to

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move code around, work stuff around, refactor the code to

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try and get it to work with only bytecode interpreter. And

00:15:24.760 --> 00:15:27.039
eventually I just gave up. I said, you know what, I'm just

00:15:27.040 --> 00:15:30.039
going to write an actual interpreter to handle this because

00:15:30.040 --> 00:15:33.799
trying to handle all these lazy macros is too much work. And

00:15:33.800 --> 00:15:35.759
everything in the bootstrap is built with the assumption

00:15:35.760 --> 00:15:37.799
that you have lazy macro expansion.

00:15:37.800 --> 00:15:45.159
I'm guessing the Emacs bytecode interpreter isn't

00:15:45.160 --> 00:15:45.959
complete.

00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:52.279
So it's mostly complete. There's a handful of opcodes that

00:15:52.280 --> 00:15:55.239
aren't implemented that are pretty easy to add that I

00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.879
haven't run into. And there's some of them that are

00:15:57.880 --> 00:16:00.119
deprecated that aren't implemented, but it's essentially

00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:00.479
complete.

00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:11.999
We also provide a bytecode JIT compilation via libgcc the

00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:17.344
way Emacs currently does it. Eventually I would like to...

00:16:17.345 --> 00:16:22.919
I'm more inclined to have a proper runtime JIT than an

00:16:22.920 --> 00:16:27.399
ahead-of-time compiler like libgcc, like the current

00:16:27.400 --> 00:16:29.919
Emacs native compilation, because it allows you to take

00:16:29.920 --> 00:16:34.559
type information and actually apply that to the code, which

00:16:34.560 --> 00:17:03.959
can let you do more aggressive optimizations to it.

NOTE What would it take to bootstrap Guile in Rune?

00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.319
He said, we may either get a new Emacs with an ancient C core

00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:09.039
with a modern Lisp, or an Emacs with modern core, but stuck

00:17:09.040 --> 00:17:11.879
with ancient Elisp. So there was another project I was

00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:16.639
talking to, one of the Guile implementations, about how we

00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.119
could potentially, he was like, what would it take to

00:17:19.120 --> 00:17:24.479
bootstrap Guile in Rune, where you have both, you could have

00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.399
Elisp and Guile running inside this project. And so we've

00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:28.999
started that discussion, which I think would be, which

00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:33.999
would be interesting. But it's tricky too, because

00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:36.199
fundamentally Elisp and Guile are two different

00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:38.119
languages. They have different semantics. They have

00:17:38.120 --> 00:17:39.879
different ways of handling things. You've really got to

00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:42.479
consider both of those when you're trying to make them work

00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:42.799
together.

00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:57.319
How would you do the native module system? What would be

00:17:57.320 --> 00:17:59.799
different? We can do the same thing. We have an FFI. So I

00:17:59.800 --> 00:18:03.839
haven't looked into it a ton, but I feel like it could be

00:18:03.840 --> 00:18:06.359
similar. And I'm actually interested, there's a couple

00:18:06.360 --> 00:18:12.759
projects on GitHub right now to have an FFI written in Elisp.

00:18:12.760 --> 00:18:17.239
So you don't even need to create a separate C or Rust module,

00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:21.679
because you can actually write native modules in Rust or C.

00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.559
And so you can just have direct bindings to a C FFI written in

00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:27.799
Elisp. You don't need any C code inside there. And I think

00:18:27.800 --> 00:18:33.699
that would be an interesting approach to look at as well.

00:18:33.700 --> 00:18:35.839
Oh, Ramin. Yeah, that's right. We were talking about that,

00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:41.539
about bootstrapping Scheme.

00:18:41.540 --> 00:18:45.519
And at this point, we have broken away from, uh, from this

00:18:45.520 --> 00:18:47.399
talk, but we're continuing to record and this will all be

00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:50.439
published. I'd say, go ahead and keep going as long as you'd

00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:54.959
like in here. And, um, thanks once again for the awesome

00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.639
discussion. Thank you so much. So I'll just pay attention to

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.919
the ether pad and the chat and see.

00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.919
That sounds good. I'll keep an eye on IRC. And if there are

00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:08.559
more questions here, I'll bounce people toward the ether

00:19:08.560 --> 00:19:12.760
pad or this, uh, chat room. All right, thank you.