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... mentally over the next couple of days, but I can assure you

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that it will be many organizers in the background also

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working. You'll probably get to see us later on. But for now,

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without further ado, I want to say hi to Vincent.

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Hi, Vincent.

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Hi, thanks for having me.

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Yeah, and thanks for

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coming and thanks for presenting. I mean, you didn't decide

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to go first. It's mostly the time zone for you which decided

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for you because I believe you are in Japan, correctly. Yeah,

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exactly. So I'm living there now and it's very late. It's

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really funny to see everyone saying good morning in the

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chat. It's always the same for me. So personally, I'm in

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France. So for me, it's only 3 p.m. For you, it's probably 9 or

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10 p.m. if I'm correct. Already 11 here, yeah. It's already

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11, so thank you for staying up so late for us.

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And how about we just get started with the questions

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because you've just presented something

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that is very dear to my heart, which is

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writing academic paper with Org Mode, which is, for the

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record, how I got started with Org Roam and stuff like this.

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So, unless you've got anything else to add on top of your

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presentation that wasn't able to fit in, I suggest we just

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start taking questions. All right. So yeah, right now I'm

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reading the question from IRC and also from the pad. So I

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guess I'm gonna take what's already written there.

NOTE Q: I'd be interested how to start this journey of writing academic papers in Org-Roam when not having used Emacs Org-Mode yet? Thanks!

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So the first one is asking, I'd be interested in how to start this

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journey to write academic paper in org-roam when not having

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used Emacs org mode yet. So I saw this one before and I guess it

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would be possible to do that, to use Org documents only

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as the way that you are writing papers. Maybe you can

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just use that as a template that you're going to export.

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If you are familiar with LaTeX, it's going to be more useful,

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and maybe more convenient to work with inside of

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Emacs. But then I'm not 100% sure if that's... How do you say

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that? Maybe, in my opinion, the benefits of using

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org-roam in that setup is that you can link the things. For

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me, I'm using the search function for org-roam to just

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navigate between the files. So that's really some, a good

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advantage, but like, yeah, that could be, like Leo said in

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the presentation, that's some, maybe that's something you

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can start using org-mode with to write papers. So yeah.

NOTE Q: How about connecting Emacs Org-Roam to Zotero? Is that something you have experience with?

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Second question. So how about connecting Emacs or Roam

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to Zotero? Is that something that you have experience with?

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Not at all. Actually, I used briefly Zotero in the past and I

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really didn't like it or didn't really get into that. I don't

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know. But right now,

NOTE Q: Out of curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it from inside Emacs, or using a separate program like Zotero?

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I don't connect that at all. The question after, out of

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curiosity, how do you manage your bibliography? Do you do it

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from inside Emacs or using a separate program, ex: Zotero?

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Because personally, I have struggled to do it from Emacs,

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though I have wanted to for some time. So the way I manage that

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is I just have a couple of .bib files that I edit by hand, where

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I put the reference when I find them.

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And yeah, I just showed very briefly in the presentation,

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but the way.

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One of the great thing with the org reference system is that

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if you have your bibliographic files that are connected to

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that system, you can just like, you can put the link, the

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reference to the paper, like click on it from your org note,

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and then you can open the PDF. You can open the DOI link to open

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the whatever publisher page.

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So no, I don't use Zotero and I just edit bib or bib files by

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hand in Emacs.

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I was just going to add something because you know

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org-roam-bibtex is actually one of the packages that I

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developed and I got it working with Zotero because for me it

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was convenient. I was studying humanities and for me it was

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very easy to connect reference taken in my browser with

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Zotero and just post-processing them a little bit but it is

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possible to make org-roam, org-roam-bibtex and Zotero

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work together. But it's a little bit of an involved process to

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get everything working in Emacs.

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Yeah, for sure. And

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yeah, I guess the way I'm doing it, I understand the appeal

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for having it integrated in the browser. Maybe

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that's something I should look up, actually, because right

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now I just like doing it very much by hand, like going on the

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publisher page and copying the bibtex block and

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just using putting that in my file. Yes, it can be not a very

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efficient workflow on that side. But after that, you're

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having the PDF and having it inside the note.

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Yeah, it's great. Yeah. To some extent, it kind of depends on

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the reference system that is used by the field in which you

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are or the university in which you're publishing. Because

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sometimes, you know, you're going to have some basic BibTeX

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file and sometimes you're going to have better BibTeX

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files. And those are very different metadata that you need

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to reconcile. And depending on which LaTeX compiler you're

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using, be it zLaTeX[??], be it regular LaTeX, lualatex, it's

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going to be all different. So it's a whole can of worms that

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I'm not sure we want to be opening now. But if you are

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interested and if you're not too attached about getting

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everything right, it's really easy to get started with

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stuff like org-roam-bibtex. It's supposed to get you

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most of the way down to a working setup. And if you need to get

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everything working down to the comma based on your

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reference system, that's going to be a little harder. But

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it's possible. I managed to do it and many people actually

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managed to do it. Okay, anyway, so let's move on to the next

NOTE Q: How do you start a new document?

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question. All right, so the next question asking how do you

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start a new document? There are a lot of headers you have to

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set up. Do you use a template? I'm curious if you use your

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snippets to deal with all of these LaTeX org metacommands.

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So I don't use a snippets template of any kind for that.

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Probably I should. That's actually a good idea. I'm

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probably going to look into that. No, the way I do actually is

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I just reuse some previous documents. I copy it, delete all

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the contents and adjust it until it works the way I like.

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The main issue in general after that step is to make it work

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with the template I receive and Let's say if I have some

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template that needs to work with another LaTeX compiler,

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I'm probably going to try to copy an existing file that I have

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that uses the same compiler to save me some work. But yeah,

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no, I don't use any snippet or something. Probably I should,

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but I'm just doing it the quick and dirty way to just copy some

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existing thing.

NOTE Q: What do you think of using citar with org-roam-bibtex?

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Then what do you think of citar with org-roam-bibtex? It seems

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that bibtex completion is tied to org-roam-bibtex. I don't

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know. I never really looked into citar that much. I

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don't know about that. I don't know either, so I'm not going

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to be able to help on this one.

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Because yeah, the bibtex completion is tied to the overall

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bibtex. I guess so. So what I'm interpreting, because I do,

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so BibTeX completion is the single motor that drives helm

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BibTeX and Ivy BibTeX. Perhaps there's another

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alternative now that is using the Vertico stack for

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completion. But org-roam-bibtex was interfacing with BibTeX

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completion to retrieve all the references from a bib file.

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and I assume citar would be something very similar in a way

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that it interfaces with a bib file, but I couldn't tell you

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more. I need to explore a little more and sadly I haven't

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touched any of this stack in like three years, so I'm a little

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out of touch. I guess this is what comes with leaving

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academia to go work as a corporate developer. I'm no longer

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so interested in the publishing process, even though I'm

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obviously very appreciative of people who still do, and

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especially people who use

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Yeah, same here. I definitely going to look into the citar

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package to see what's possible. Maybe can be using in some

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way that is useful for me. Yeah.

NOTE Q: Most academic journals insist that papers are formatted in their own custom LaTeX documentclass.  Does org-roam make it easy to do that?

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And if I go to the next question, so most academic journal

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insist that paper are formatted in their own custom LaTeX

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document class. Does org-roam make it easy to do that? The

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answer is no. That's mostly what I was presenting in the

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slide.

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Actually, that's also why I made the presentation, because

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if someone has a solution, I would gladly take it. No, the way

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I do it is that I have to add a... I don't have that on top of my head.

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plus. Yeah, exactly. So I just make a custom org-latex class with the

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name of the latex template. In general, I think people use

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that to redefine like stuff like section and subsection,

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but for me, I just, it shows in the slide where I just map the

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section to the same section. I just changed the name of the

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class. And this way it allows to import the, the CLS and then

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the rest is just like putting the TeX template that is

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provided either in headers, in LaTeX headers at the top or

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Yeah, or just on a LaTeX block in the body of the document if

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that's needed, for example, for the acknowledgement.

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Sometimes they need some different formatting, but no,

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it's not really easy because it needs to modify some

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configuration in Emacs to do that. Then after that, a little

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bit like manually adapt the templates into your org notes.

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So that's a little bit some upfront work to do. But once it's

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done, your notes are going to be exported exactly like the

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template and you don't have to worry about it. Yeah, it's an

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interesting topic because the thing about, on one side, you

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know, you want to have, when you're using LaTeX, it kind of

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translates into you caring a lot about the document that you

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produce. Either you care about how quickly you can turn a

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plain text document into a very nicely formatted PDF at the

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end, or, you know, you just care about the output of your

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documents, making sure that everything is properly

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formatted. We were talking about references just before,

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you know, the formatting rule for references are highly

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dependent upon the manual that you're using and, you know,

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some people really care about this. And what I found in my

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particular experience, my own personal experience

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writing for academia, was that I was more in the latter crowd

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that really cared about the output format and making sure

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everything was correct and it's really a struggle to get

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everything working especially when you're transpiling

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from Org Mode documents straight into LaTeX. You're

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obviously going to be resorting to a number of hacks to get

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everything working like Vincent just mentioned with the

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class or you're going to end up with many imported files just

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to get everything working, but really you're fighting

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against the tide if you want to get something a little

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different from what is shipping with Walmart. Maybe

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everything has gotten better since I was writing my papers,

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but generally... Kindly disagree. Yeah, go on. I kindly

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disagree. I actually, I'm surprised that a lot of template

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is so complex that you don't just change the document class,

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but also need to do something else. I'd say it's rather

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uncommon. I guess it depends on the area of your search.

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Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's it. It just needs CLS and

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that's all. Yeah, but it really depends on, as you said, on

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the field in which you're publishing. Some fields are a

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little more lax with their rules. And just the fact that you

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can introduce mathematic formulas kind of makes LaTeX the

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de facto for publishing math documents. But when you're

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doing humanities, they're more attached to other kinds of

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formatting. So I think things are much better, anyway,

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since I started five years ago. Oh, yeah. I have heard from

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humanities people Microsoft Word. Yes. Sadly, that's the

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format we're fighting against. Yeah. As for document,

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yeah, for LaTeX classes, it is a customization and it is the

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right way to customize this thing, that's all. I'm not sure

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why it's a hack. It's not a hack. It's an actual user

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customization. Right. So, we've got about four more

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minutes of question. Vincent, we've got a couple of Yeah. So

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I've got a little voice talking in my ear telling me that

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exactly the same thing. So we've got about two more

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questions. Vincent, do you want to field them? Sure. So, are

NOTE Q: Are you using zotra or org-ref?

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you using Zotra (sending some link) or org-ref? No, I don't.

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I've never heard of Zotra, actually. Looking that very

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briefly. That's something I'm going to have to look into.

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Apparently, the short for Zotero translator, so that might

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be something useful for me since I'm not using Zotero yet,

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maybe trying to combine. But no, I've never really tried

NOTE Q: How much of this is tied to org-roam specifically?

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these, but I will. Then the last question, how much of this is

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tied to Org-roam specifically? Not a lot. Actually apart

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from the org-roam-bibtex, I think.

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Maybe I'm mixing up stuff there. But no, not a lot actually.

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It's just the fact that I'm using that as a in my org-roam

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system. But apart from that, most of, I mean, actually all of

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the exports can be done from a normal org-note or any other

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knowledge management system that you do with org-notes. So

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no, it's not specifically tied to org-roam, just that

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that's the way I'm using it. And I'm showing it this way, but

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yeah, actually the export process can be, can be done with,

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Yes, specifically tight work room. Yeah, just confirming

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this, the only way Org Roam intervenes into this process is

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just referencing

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bibliography elements. It just kind of intercedes a little

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bit between what Org Roam usually does. But when it comes to

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the exports to LaTeX and PDF eventually, that's completely

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deferring to org exports. So, ox-latex and all of this. So,

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we are not intervening in any way into this transpiling

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format. One comment. Yeah, I don't know if I imagine it is,

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but it looked from the slides that it was our graph was it.

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Sorry, that it was? org-ref, org-ref.

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Yes. Because it is a link system for citations. Built-in

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citations, which is, there is a built-in citation system in

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:50.639
art mode. It uses, it doesn't use links. It has a special way

00:16:50.640 --> 00:16:57.359
to cite things. Yeah, because I believe, yeah, go on please,

00:16:57.360 --> 00:17:01.519
Vincent. No, I just wanted to say, in that case, I'm using the

00:17:01.520 --> 00:17:10.119
link with the cite command. I'm not using the org-roam link

00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:14.079
for the reference. I didn't really show that very

00:17:14.080 --> 00:17:17.679
carefully. But then, yeah, it's a site element that is

00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:21.639
exported. So the roam part is just like, you can access the

00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:26.519
org notes that you have attached to a reference paper. But

00:17:26.520 --> 00:17:31.879
that's it. Okay, because I was confused by why the

00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.919
bibliography is a link, why style is a link, because it is the

00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:37.239
approach org-ref uses.

00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:47.839
Ah, right. Okay, I see. Yeah, the thing is, actually I don't

00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:52.159
know why, but In my experience, using the org-roam,

00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.599
org-roam-bibtex links doesn't export or doesn't export

00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:01.999
properly. So like adding them with the org-ref-cite worked

00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.359
better. So that's, that's why I'm using these. If I may

00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:07.439
interject. If you're using org-ref-cite, you're using

00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:11.319
org-ref-for-export, which is slightly different. I'm

00:18:11.320 --> 00:18:14.039
going to interject very quickly because sadly we are a

00:18:14.040 --> 00:18:15.919
little pressed for time because we are heading into the next

00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.559
discussion. So just very quickly, if you want to continue

00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:21.279
the discussion, the BBB room is available at

00:18:21.280 --> 00:18:24.319
emacsconf-org. You can go to the talk and get the link to join

00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:27.319
the BBB. And the stream will be moving on to the next stream in

00:18:27.320 --> 00:18:30.239
about 5 to 10 seconds. So I'll see you on the other side. And

00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:36.439
thank you, Vincent. Thank you. All right, sorry for cutting

00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.839
a little abruptly. It's because we use crontabs to move to

00:18:38.840 --> 00:18:42.519
the next talk. And sadly, I don't have any leeway on this. So

00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:45.279
feel free to continue the discussion. I'll be moving on to

00:18:45.280 --> 00:18:48.639
make sure everything is working. So enjoy the discussion.

00:18:48.640 --> 00:19:00.720
Thank you very much. Bye-bye.