path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-mcclim--elisp-and-mcclim--screwlisp--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

NOTE I would love to see the GUI interacting with the scheduling stuff

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...volume of code I've written that.

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I will do a follow-up video with the kind of synchronized

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elisp-mode stuff because that is the point of the talk. Sorry

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for talking over you. Please continue.

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sachac is saying (car kill-ring).

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Oh, yeah, so this question, they're just asking in the

NOTE Q: Or any other GUI stuff you've worked on in the past that you'd be comfortable showing?

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Scratchpad, is there any other GUI stuff I've worked on in

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the past? I guess my Toobnix channel, I was doing a bunch of

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that, so just Common Lisp development, homed around

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McCLIM. What is my Toobnix channel? If you find a Toobnix

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channel and it has a name like Screwtape, that'll

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presumably be that. So Toobnix is SDF.org's PeerTube.

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Nope, not that one.

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Sacha's got it here in the IRC. I think it's

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screwtape_channels/videos. Yeah. So the

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author of mastodon.el, which hopefully lots of us are using

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for our mastodoning, I used the name Screwtape as my

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username, and I think Wintermute said some kind of

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exasperated Emacs theme. You know what? Screw Lisp. Then

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Mousebot of mastodon.el rechristened me screwlisp. So

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sometimes you see my name written one way, and sometimes you

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see my name written the other way. I quite like it. A lot of

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people thought that I was quitting Emacs when I changed my

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name to be mainly screwlisp. I love it. That's a great story.

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Thank you. It's so great to have a name from somebody else. I

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was just thrilled. So thank you, mousebot. Everyone use

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mousebot's mode. Welcome to Green Guest. I'm with you

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there. All my kids want to choose their own names, and I'm

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just like, more power to you. I'm very glad that my parents

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picked mine for me, and that's one thing I never had to think

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about. All right, so do we have to cut short so I can go back to

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watching MPV? of the other stuff. We don't have to, but you

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are not obligated to sit here one moment more answering our

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questions than, you know, but of course, you know, we've

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talked a little before, but I, so I have a pile of questions.

NOTE Lispy Gopher Show

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You promised to come on the Lispy Gopher show. That's right.

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I have so much to say. I could, I could, I could come right on

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your show and just talk to you there, but I'm just curious.

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Talk to us a little bit about that. Tell us more about the

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program. Oh, the Lispy Gopher climate. What do we do? So it's

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hosted by the Superdimensional Fortress, SDF.org, who are

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a public access Unix mainly. They do their own little radio

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thing as well. And so I guess for a few years now, I do a weekly

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show every zero hundred hours UTC. We always start off with

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kind of climate crisis topics, because that is a climate

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crisis topic. But there's a sort of joy in that, because Kent

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Pitman, who Kent Pitman you're familiar with from the

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Pit Manual and so forth, writes a kind of climate crisis

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haiku, which we kind of lead out with, and we kind of go into

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the discussions there. Then obviously the show has- It's a

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highlight, not gonna lie. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I try and do

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these dramatic readings, but it's often stumble over.

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Actually, when Sacha was on, there was an auxiliary poem

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that happened, which was pretty interesting, too. What was

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I going to say? Then, I mean, the way we got named the Lispy

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Gopher Climate was because, broadly speaking, I like to

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talk about kind of lisp, and most of my writing for a long time

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was on the Gopher. Though I accidentally locked myself out

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of the Gopher recently, so there hasn't been an update there

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for a while. I'm kind of around the IRCs and Mastodon quite a

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bit now. Lisp, I like to use the term Lisp inclusively,

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basically. Obviously this talk, I was making the point that

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I just could go through a 1978 paper written in, and so pre-D

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machine inter-LISP, right? And it basically just worked in

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modern Emacs LISP. Somebody was pointing out to me, who

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pointed out where I was like, I don't know what PUT is in,

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in Emacs Lisp, and somebody was saying definitely there's

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put in Emacs Lisp. So I'm going to come back to the recording

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of this talk, and I'm going to just pinpoint this moment the

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next time somebody says, we need to modernize Lisp. I'm

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going to say, no, no, no, this is modern Emacs Lisp. You see,

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here's people talking about, yeah, I'm just tripping over,

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not tripping over, I'm amused by your phrase there, but

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that's exactly how I see it too. And I take your point utterly

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that, you know, this tradition of Lisp of carrying forward

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ideas. And, you know, we, you know, especially in Emacs, it

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really is like a brain trust, right? Buckets of knowledge of

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how to get some sort of work done, or, you know, how to work

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with some kind of code or some kind of data. Yeah, but I had a

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kind of, interesting experience with some great friends of

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mine, whom I love dearly. Vidak, if you're watching this,

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I'm gossiping about you people over in Australia there.

NOTE Lisp already did it

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Where people come to you with really exciting ideas that

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seem to be very cutting edge and like, you know, very much the

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current talk of the day, like you can hear in other

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programming languages, and they're telling you how they

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think you might be able to do this in Lisp. And you have to say,

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well, you know, if we go back to the late 70s, where the Lisp

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community really kind of pioneered this topic already.

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Here's how we did it in the late 70s. And there's actually

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quite a kind of awkward, just kind of disjunction there. I

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mean, that's the thing, right? Where use of Emacs in

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particular use of Lisp in general will unravel somebody's

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whole big bag of wind that they've built up around why

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something has to be rebuilt and well right but that's just a

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function you know it's data so we'll probably just think

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about that as I don't know sitting in a variable.

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Oh, so that whole problem, like the elegance of a solution

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can entirely fall away once you fall back to an earlier way of

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thinking about it. And then, you know, look at the pieces

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you've carried forward the idea of the declarative

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language, right? Declaring user experience. Yeah. Once

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again, tangentially to, um, to the actual talk we've just

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watched, which I will try and follow up on as well. But one

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example was After watching me use the Common Lisp loop

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facility so much, Kent pointed out to me, hey, you know, why

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don't you try using Richard Waters' series iteration

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stuff, which was kind of lazy evaluation of series that

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Waters did. And so after criticizing Haskell for a long

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time, me kind of saying, hey, you know, I don't think this

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lazy evaluation is important. then Kent pointed out to me

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that, for example, the series, like what is it? AIM 1082 or

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something published in 1989 was Lazy Evaluation in LISP

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with series. And so I thought, well, once I realized that

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this was part of kind of almost classic LISP history to have

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lazy evaluation, I adopted series, I kind of had to rethink

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my LISP worldview to realize it did already include lazy

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evaluation, which I attributed to the late 80s. And then

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when I actually read a little bit further, lazy evaluation,

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depending on your research group, has been, was kind of

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established in the late 70s by Waters again, actually.

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Sorry for the anecdote, just kind of the interesting

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medley. Not at all.

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Yeah.

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Ellis over in the IRC has come up with a good slime about

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async. Oh, I see. So yeah,

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I guess that would work. I have to try that. OK, so you're just

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getting me reading this. They have had a stab at resolving

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our asynchronous calls thing more elegantly than me. Left

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as an exercise to the listener. It's one of the big virtues of

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something like a convention. It'll bring us together with

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other people that can kind of see past the boats in our eyes.

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Oh yeah, that's easy for me. Yeah, definitely. Hearing

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somebody else's kind of thought process from you and from

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just the past speaker who was Robin, I think, because this

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was in the morning for me, so I just kind of got up and caught

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some of Robin. Yeah, it's so great, kind of vicariously

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experiencing somebody else's Emacs usage and how it kind of

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subtly backs onto their own development flows. Yeah, so I

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really appreciate this talk. I'm constantly cribbing from

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everyone I meet. And yeah, this talk has been eye-popping,

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just watching you casually navigate Emacs, actually.

NOTE IELM

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Yeah, it's cool. Yeah, I enjoyed discovering IELM mode.

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That was going to be my other question for people. Are there

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any IELM Power users around? I could really go for an

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EmacsConf talk on IELM mode. Aha, yes. Very good. Note

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taken. Yeah. So, just thoughts for next year? Oh, well, I

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kind of want to get back onto the MPV, but thank you so much for

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this. You are cmak in the IRC, right? I am Corwin, same as you.

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So you're Corwin. There's also cmak, and I guess there are a

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few other people. Sorry that I'm tripping over the

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different people here. But you're going to come on the Lispy

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Gopher Climate later. Sure, I'm happy to. That sounds

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like fun. I always got a million things to talk about me or an

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opinion on everything. But of course, my favorite thing to

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talk about is just the huge thanks that, you know, sharing

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that, the generosity or the, you know, my appreciation for

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you and all the other members of the Emacs community that

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create talks like this and make the conference and the rest

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of the community so rich. Well, yeah, and thank you for your

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work. Sacha is just saying over in Lambda that when I say I

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want someone to give the talk, this means I'm volunteering

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to give the IELM talk. That's what I wrote down. Oh, yeah. I've

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been working for Sacha. I mean, helping Sacha with this

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conference for years. I know. No, I'm kidding. That would be

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cool. I will absolutely go to your ielm talk. I make a lot of use

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of that and could do more. Yeah, we're meant to suddenly

NOTE Q: Are we going to get a McCLIM LambdaMOO client?

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stop. But a guest over in Lambda also said, are we going to get

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a McCLIM LambdaMOO client? And I actually had all my kind of

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Moo stuff I'd written in Common Lisp, which I was thinking of

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just kind of jettisoning. But you're right, I should make

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that into a client for Common Lisp. Anyway, I'm going to hang

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up so I can keep watching the conference sounds good so we'll

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just cut away with the stream throw some music and a

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countdown uh back on give us just a second to make that on bbb

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and then i'll give you the big thumbs up thank you thank you

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recording here we'll get it all posted up uh right next to

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your awesome pre-recorded talk

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thanks again like it's been fun chatting and uh Yeah,

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definitely seeing you around in the conference channel off

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off season. So to speak, you're like, you're totally

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welcome to use our chat like it to the extent you need to IRC

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channel that's been working on great for me. It's fun to fun

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to see it.

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All right, I'm gonna hang up this thing. All right. Happy day

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flowy. Sorry, I mean, screwlisp. Oh my gosh, I have

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conference brain. Bye bye. All right, later, later.