path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-blee--about-blee-towards-an-integrated-emacs-environment-for-enveloping-our-own-autonomy-directed-digital-ecosystem--mohsen-banan--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.199
Thank you for the talk. I mean, it was a fairly long one and we

00:00:04.200 --> 00:00:07.999
had two very distinct parts, one which dealt with a

00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:12.079
philosophy of Libre-Halaal software and then the application,

00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.279
obviously, of BISOS. So thank you so much for the

00:00:14.280 --> 00:00:17.839
presentation. Before we get started with the question, and

00:00:17.840 --> 00:00:21.799
for the record, we have about 14 minutes of question time, is

00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:25.079
there anything that you'd like to add on top of your

00:00:25.080 --> 00:00:27.759
presentation, something that perhaps would not have fit in

00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:33.399
the actual presentation format? Sure, but prior to that,

00:00:33.400 --> 00:00:37.839
félicitations à tous les Français pour le rouvrir de

00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:42.719
Notre-Dame. Thank you. I'll say thank you because I'm a

00:00:42.720 --> 00:00:48.039
Francophone and I'm also French, but OK.

00:00:48.040 --> 00:00:58.159
Yeah, so a few things have come up in various other talks,

00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:04.359
that kind of EmacsConf 2024 talks, that kind of dovetail

00:01:04.360 --> 00:01:10.599
with what I was saying. One idea was Peter Prevos's

00:01:10.600 --> 00:01:20.639
observation of working with Emacs versus working on Emacs.

00:01:20.640 --> 00:01:28.279
And I'm all for that. So the idea of BLEE is that

00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:32.599
Others can package things, and we are seeing this in the form

00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:38.119
of redistributions. There is Doom, there is Spacemacs, and

00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:44.079
we are seeing the evolution of Emacs into layers. So there is

00:01:44.080 --> 00:01:50.119
the core Emacs, and there are layers on top of it. And Peter

00:01:50.120 --> 00:01:59.799
also mentioned about too much choice, this notion of

00:01:59.800 --> 00:02:08.919
Not always too much choice is the right thing to have. And

00:02:08.920 --> 00:02:18.279
packaging Emacs with a layer on top of Debian gives you a

00:02:18.280 --> 00:02:24.159
platform and an environment where the choices are a lot

00:02:24.160 --> 00:02:31.159
less. And that is not necessarily a bad thing.

00:02:31.160 --> 00:02:36.719
So that was one idea. The other idea or the other theme

00:02:36.720 --> 00:02:42.919
throughout the various talks that we saw was this concept of

00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:53.519
mixing org-mode with programming languages and what Babel

00:02:53.520 --> 00:03:00.479
has done is two things. One is it has successfully

00:03:00.480 --> 00:03:06.799
integrated org-mode with all kinds of languages. And that

00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:13.039
has happened in the context of literate programming. So

00:03:13.040 --> 00:03:16.839
a talk coming after mine is literate programming for the

00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:22.399
21st century, mixing org mode with program languages. And

00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:27.359
what I am saying is that there is an alternative and that's

00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:33.839
great, but we should also, consider a traditional

00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:40.159
programming mixed with org-mode and, polymode is key to

00:03:40.160 --> 00:03:49.239
that. So those were some of the key concepts that I saw a

00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:55.799
resonance with as the conference went forward. Yeah, and I

00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:59.959
think, if my memory serves me right, we have another talk

00:03:59.960 --> 00:04:04.199
about hyperbole this year, right after this Q&A session.

00:04:04.200 --> 00:04:07.919
And hyperbole, it's not Org Mode, but I'm not sure if you're

00:04:07.920 --> 00:04:10.359
familiar with it, Mohsen, you might have seen it from

00:04:10.360 --> 00:04:14.639
various talks last year, but it also tends to have a similar

00:04:14.640 --> 00:04:18.919
stance than you, with the fact that text should be embedded

00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.919
in programming languages rather than having Org-Mode

00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.439
implement, I mean, integrate other languages. And I found

00:04:25.440 --> 00:04:28.359
it funny that we have your talk and this talk which are about

00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:32.999
the other direction, which I find very resonating as well.

00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:40.439
Right, right, right. So in terms of other things that did not

00:04:40.440 --> 00:04:46.999
fit into my talk is that the several concepts that I

00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:49.599
introduced, namely

00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:57.879
Dynamic Blocks everywhere and COMEEGA.

00:04:57.880 --> 00:05:07.719
I'd be happy to expand on those by sharing a screen in due

00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:12.519
course, whatever is appropriate. Sure, considering the

00:05:12.520 --> 00:05:16.119
time that we have, we only have about 8 minutes 30 and we

00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:18.999
already have about four, five questions actually. I

00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:22.599
suggest we perhaps leave the screen sharing until later if

00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:25.399
people are interested. I mean this Q&A can last as long as you

00:05:25.400 --> 00:05:30.079
want. That makes perfect sense. OK, cool. So how about we

00:05:30.080 --> 00:05:33.279
focus on the question now and starting with the first one.

NOTE Q: I'm from Brazil, which edition would you recommend?

00:05:33.280 --> 00:05:36.279
You mentioned that there are two editions, one named at

00:05:36.280 --> 00:05:40.159
Westerners and one for worldwide readers. I'm from Brazil.

00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.599
Which edition would you recommend? It's a Western country,

00:05:42.600 --> 00:05:45.479
but you didn't make the distinction exclusive for the

00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:48.199
second edition. So I thought it would be better to ask.

00:05:48.200 --> 00:05:56.119
Right. So definitely, I would say for everybody who is on

00:05:56.120 --> 00:06:01.959
this conference, the international edition is the right

00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:11.639
choice. In this book, I take some aggressive stances against

00:06:11.640 --> 00:06:19.279
intellectual property and I link that specifically to the

00:06:19.280 --> 00:06:27.439
American culture. So there are pieces in the book where the

00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:36.399
typical American audience may be offended. And if your skin

00:06:36.400 --> 00:06:43.279
is thick enough to deal with what I consider reasonable

00:06:43.280 --> 00:06:48.319
criticism, then the International Edition is definitely

00:06:48.320 --> 00:06:54.439
the better choice. Right. So yeah, I believe you also

00:06:54.440 --> 00:06:56.959
mentioned it. Pretty much exactly the same thing in your

00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:00.239
talk. So if you need to review, just watch the talk. And I

00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:03.439
think Mohsen also provides extra information about this.

00:07:03.440 --> 00:07:07.079
Moving on to the second question. Thank you for this talk.

NOTE Q: Thank you for this talk! How does your perspective interface with works such as Yanis Varoufakis' Technofeudalism?

00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:10.319
How does your perspective interface with work such as Yanis

00:07:10.320 --> 00:07:14.639
Varoufakis' Technofeudalism?

00:07:14.640 --> 00:07:24.919
I haven't read much of that. I think there is a whole lot of

00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:34.199
global growth and collective understanding towards this

00:07:34.200 --> 00:07:42.479
notion that the direction we are headed in and by that, I mean

00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.879
American digital ecosystems

00:07:46.880 --> 00:07:53.159
are dangerous and that we should revisit

00:07:53.160 --> 00:08:03.239
the entirety of the model and strategy.

00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:10.119
If the person who asked the question has any additional

00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:16.119
information, I'll be happy to hear it. Sure. We'll see if the

00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:19.559
person actually comes back to this. All right. In the

00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:21.979
meantime, moving on to the next question.

NOTE Q: To what extent do you agree that the introduction of proprietary systems in education creates an environment for exploitation while at the same time diluting the learning value of the curriculum?

00:08:21.980 --> 00:08:22.959
To what extent do

00:08:22.960 --> 00:08:25.519
you agree that the introduction of proprietary systems in

00:08:25.520 --> 00:08:29.279
education creates an environment for exploitation whilst

00:08:29.280 --> 00:08:31.679
at the same time diluting the learning value of the

00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:34.879
curriculum? My computing education at school amounted to

00:08:34.880 --> 00:08:38.399
learning how to use the Microsoft Office suite, i.e. the

00:08:38.400 --> 00:08:44.679
opposite of lasting open knowledge. Yeah, that's right on

00:08:44.680 --> 00:08:49.719
the mark. That's right on the mark. So the idea is that

00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:55.919
teaching and learning should be unrestricted. In the

00:08:55.920 --> 00:09:02.479
Muslim tradition and in Iranian tradition, we say that

00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:12.919
passing along the learning is the tax on having learned. So

00:09:12.920 --> 00:09:20.359
absolutely. I think it makes very little sense for the

00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:27.039
proprietary Microsoft software to be used as part of

00:09:27.040 --> 00:09:33.519
education. So the question is right on the mark. Okay,

00:09:33.520 --> 00:09:38.519
great. Let me just take a note of this. All right, moving on to

00:09:38.520 --> 00:09:40.052
the next question.

NOTE Q: As a specific example of how "ownership is not clean" ...

00:09:40.053 --> 00:09:43.359
As a specific example of how ownership is

00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:46.239
not something clean, look at the Star Trek Picard series.

00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:48.839
They continuously asked Patrick Stewart to come to do

00:09:48.840 --> 00:09:52.159
another Star Trek series, but he couldn't because Star Trek

00:09:52.160 --> 00:09:54.959
changed from what it used to be, at least until they came up

00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:57.999
with a series that honored what Star Trek used to be. Does

00:09:58.000 --> 00:10:21.839
this intersect? Let me read this for a moment.

00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:30.599
Yeah, I am not sure I fully get the point, but. Let me make a

00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:35.959
point about my criticisms of the FOSS movement

00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:47.399
in the presentation and in the book. The idea is that we have

00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:53.919
jumped on the FOSS  movement and recognize it as an

00:10:53.920 --> 00:11:02.279
alternative but we haven't looked deeply enough to see if

00:11:02.280 --> 00:11:07.759
our own philosophy and movement have problems. The

00:11:07.760 --> 00:11:14.959
problems that I note is that the FOSS movement does not

00:11:14.960 --> 00:11:21.279
recognize clearly and explicitly that the entirety of the

00:11:21.280 --> 00:11:30.399
intellectual property rights regime is flawed. The second

00:11:30.400 --> 00:11:37.239
piece is that it's only now that we are seeing the FOSS

00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:45.479
movement is broader than the Western world. The third

00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:54.919
problem is that the labels of Free Software and Open Source

00:11:54.920 --> 00:12:01.159
are not necessarily correct. The fourth problem is that we

00:12:01.160 --> 00:12:07.239
are not paying enough attention to establishing a

00:12:07.240 --> 00:12:09.999
relationship with society.

00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:16.439
So there's a whole chapter in the book dedicated to this

00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:23.959
topic. What I'm not sure about is if I got the point of the

00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:30.279
question correctly. So again, if the person who asked the

00:12:30.280 --> 00:12:35.679
question could clarify, I'll be happy to further expand.

00:12:35.680 --> 00:12:40.279
Okay, considering the time, we only have about one minute to

00:12:40.280 --> 00:12:42.959
ten seconds until we go. So what we're going to do, as we

00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:45.439
usually do, Mohsen, is that we're going to move the stream

00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:47.839
onto the next talk. And if you want to take a little bit of time

00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.799
in this room to answer the question, I'm putting a link to the

00:12:51.800 --> 00:12:56.519
pad in the BBB chat so you can open it on your end. But as we are

00:12:56.520 --> 00:12:59.319
still live for 15 more seconds, do you have any last words?

00:12:59.320 --> 00:13:09.039
Keep up the good work. Those would be my last words, that the

00:13:09.040 --> 00:13:14.239
Free Software and the Open Source and Emacs are a very valid

00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:24.479
strategy for inside of IPR resistance. And thank you, Leo

00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:29.719
and Sacha and the rest of the folks for this wonderful yearly

00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:33.559
event. Well, thank you so much. And it's always a pleasure to

00:13:33.560 --> 00:13:36.119
have you. And thank you for your thankings. So we'll be

00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:38.439
moving to the next talk in 10 seconds. Mohsen, thank you so

00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:47.559
much. And I'll see you later. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:50.159
All right. We are off air. So thank you so much, Mohsen. I'll

00:13:50.160 --> 00:13:52.559
need to get moving to get ready for the next talk. So again,

00:13:52.560 --> 00:13:54.519
feel free to take the time you need to answer the questions.

00:13:54.520 --> 00:13:56.719
I'm going to stop sharing my screen because I need to leave.

00:13:56.720 --> 00:13:59.319
But take all the time you need. And when you're finished, you

00:13:59.320 --> 00:14:04.039
can just leave the room. OK. All right, bye-bye. Thank you.

00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:23.439
Great. I see one more person in the room.

00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:35.679
Hi, John.

00:14:35.680 --> 00:14:38.079
I was looking at the questions.

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:46.239
To see if there is more that I can add. So,

00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:54.919
through the regard of societal impacts on ethical,

00:14:54.920 --> 00:14:58.439
philosophical and wider FOSS community. I'm involved in

00:14:58.440 --> 00:15:02.239
politics in my country, my party is very sympathetic to

00:15:02.240 --> 00:15:05.277
FOSS ideas and I have public...

NOTE Q: Do you have any recommended reading materials designed for such an audience?

00:15:05.278 --> 00:15:08.039
Do you have any recommendation

00:15:08.040 --> 00:15:12.359
to reading materials designed for such an audience? Um,

00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:17.999
yeah, this is with regard to the last question

00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:24.439
that's on the etherpad at this moment. The idea is

00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:32.199
that my own book would be an excellent resource. I'd

00:15:32.200 --> 00:15:39.279
say the bibliography in the book contains various

00:15:39.280 --> 00:15:43.039
other pointers that could be quite useful.

00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:55.399
I'm reading again.

00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:57.799
Yeah.

00:15:57.800 --> 00:16:20.159
Very good. If there are no other questions,

00:16:20.160 --> 00:16:31.839
I think I'm going to consider this a day and move on.

00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:43.760
Thank you.