path: root/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-mentor--mentoring-vscoders-as-an-emacsian-or-how-to-show-not-tell-people-about-the-wonders-of-emacs--jeremy-friesen--answers.vtt

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[Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live.

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Hi, Jeremy, how are you doing?

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[Speaker 1]: All right. I'm doing all right.

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How about you?

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[Speaker 0]: I'm doing great as well.

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I'm really happy to see all the talk that

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we're having. And I was particularly excited

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when I got your proposal for this talk

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because mentoring, as I was telling you

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during the check-in process,

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is a subject dear to my heart.

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So I'm really excited,

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not only for the talk that you've just done,

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but also for the question that people are

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going to ask you.

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I'm looking forward to answering some

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questions. Mentoring is also something near

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and dear. Something I did not mention is when

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folks would ask me, like,

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what was your most important class?

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Or I said, oh, easy, easy,

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easy, high school English.

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Like, it's my whatever your primary written

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and spoken languages I think is the most

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useful skill as a programmer

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[Speaker 0]: right so as usual people if you want to ask

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questions to Jeremy, feel free to find the

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link to the other pad either on the talk page

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or on IRC. We're also going to open the chat

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so that people can join us and ask questions.

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Let me just make sure that I tell Sasha can

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you open ID Mentor. All right so in the

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meantime what we'll do is that I'll be

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reading questions of the pad and Jeremy will

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be answering them whilst we wait for you to

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join. Now just to be clear with the time,

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we have a little bit of time now,

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a little more time than before.

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We have 22 minutes, so until 10 of the next

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hours to answer as many questions as

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possible. And believe me,

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if you people watching right now are not

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asking questions, I will be asking plenty of

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them. So please, save Jeremy from my

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[Speaker 1]: I look forward to it.

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[Speaker 0]: inquisitive mind. All right.

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Starting with the first question,

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a very trivial 1, perhaps,

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but always 1 that I ask myself when I look at

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a keyboard. Regarding super key,

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which key do you bind to super?

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so my left command,

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which is on a Mac keyboard,

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so the key right to the left of the space bar

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is super. And the key immediately to the

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right of spacebar, which is the right command

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key, is bound to hyper,

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which opens up a whole new suite of keys.

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And I thought it would take a little bit to

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get used to, but it's been amazing.

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So I definitely recommend having a hyper

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binding.

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[Speaker 0]: I will, yes. I was also going to say super

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binding. No, it's a hyper binding.

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We already have super.

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It's your Windows key or your Linux key or

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whatever you want to call it.

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But I will warn people though,

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it's the gateway into fancy keyboard setups

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because it starts, it's the Trojan horse of

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fancy keyboard setup. Just,

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oh I wish I could have another modifier.

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And then many years later,

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you find yourself with this little thing that

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I'm showing, which is a fully customized QMK

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keyboard.

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[Speaker 2]: All right.

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[Speaker 1]: Following on that, then meta is to the left

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of super, and then control is to the left of

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meta. And also, caps lock maps to control as

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well. Definitely tried a bunch of tap for

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this and that on a programmable keyboard,

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but I have settled on keep it simple and use

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something like carabiner elements to do most

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[Speaker 0]: Right. It's good that you were able to stop

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there. I wish I'd stopped there at some point

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[Speaker 1]: of the mapping. It was a terrible moment

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where I'm like, oh, what have I done when I

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was trying to type once?

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[Speaker 0]: in my life. All right,

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moving on to the next question.

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Great talk. What's the package you used to

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make the org slide?

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[Speaker 1]: So yeah, it's great. Yeah,

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so I am using Protz Logos and have,

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I think, like, Olivet mode.

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I'll post a link to the configuration for

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turning it on and off.

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But it's basically narrow region to an org

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heading, which is, I find that to be super

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helpful. Don't have to fiddle with it.

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[Speaker 0]: Right, just to be clear,

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it's Olivetti, right? I think that's the...

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[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, Olivetti, yeah.

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[Speaker 0]: A typical Italian word that is really tough

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to pronounce between Europeans and people in

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I had a... For some reason I dropped

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the I at the end. So in my head

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[Speaker 0]: the US. Yeah, moving to the next question if

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people do get interested in picking up emacs

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because of what they see you do How do you

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recommend they say they get into it?

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Oh

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I've been I think a lot of it comes

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down to what are the problems that they're

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trying to solve. And so I walked them through

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my journey. I worked in TextMate for a long

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time, then Sublime, then Atom.

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And then in 2020, I hopped over to Emacs,

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started writing in it and I chose Space Max

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and then I chose Doom.

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And then I was like, wait,

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start over, erase everything and just do the

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tutorial. So I did the tutorial and then I

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started writing and I was like,

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oh, I really want this functionality.

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And so I went and I looked for it and I

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installed the package.

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And then I got the functionality,

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went back to writing, and I'm like,

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oh, my editor should really be able to do

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this. And I thought about it.

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So a lot of it came down to the experience of

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what they're trying to accomplish.

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And really helping ask them that.

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I had 1 mentee had used Vim for a long time

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and then was exploring using Evil Mode and

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Emacs and we had conversations and it was

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like go back to Vim like you were using VS

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Code just go back to Vim and they went back

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to Vim and then they started writing,

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well, they went to NeoVim and they started

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writing Lua plugins for stuff and it just

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helped free them and they gained that

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ownership in their text editor.

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So I try to have them think through what are

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the common tasks that they're trying to

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accomplish and then thinking in terms of

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that. So instead of going and finding a

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solution, understand the problems they're

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experiencing, which tends to be what we

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should do in software development.

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Instead of implementing the solve a problem.

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Sometimes It's fun to implement an idea.

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[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I think it's really the crux,

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really, when it comes to software

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development, because what is at the crux of

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any kind of engineering?

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Well, it's the problem you're trying to

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solve. If you've got 2 islands and you need

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to join them up together,

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well, I need to build a bridge.

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Now, obviously with software,

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we have problems that defy the law of

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physics, which is great because we get very

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complex problems that are very exciting to

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solve. But when it comes to onboarding people

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into those ways of solving problems,

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well, I think mentoring,

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The key behind mentoring is that together,

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we're going to look at a problem and we're

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going to try to see how high would fix it.

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And you're going to try to appreciate whether

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this is something you would do as well or

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would like to do.

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[Speaker 1]: Yep, Absolutely. Yeah,

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it's really taking time to walk with them on

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the journey to understand what's frustrating

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them. I have a coworker we've been working

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together for a very long time.

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She is not a fast navigator of her editor,

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but as we've talked, that's not where she's

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looking to get better.

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She's looking to get better at asking the

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questions of the clients early so that we

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don't go down long paths of implementation.

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So it's been great because she's not looking

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to get better at her text editor.

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She's adequate for how she navigates.

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Other people look and they're like,

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man, I want to do it faster.

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I want to do it different.

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I want to do it better.

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And then we have a different conversation.

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[Speaker 0]: Right. All right. Moving on to the next

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question. I've been using Emacs for about 30

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years and I find it really difficult to

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figure out how to help people get started

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with it So I guess my question is the same as

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the green question right about it.

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I think it's slightly different though You

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could it is more about well go on please.

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Yeah

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[Speaker 1]: so My wife a while ago,

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talked about the idea of,

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relative to anybody, I am an expert or

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slightly more informed on a topic than the

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person quote behind me.

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And there's a person ahead of me who's

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slightly more informed than I am.

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And so what we're looking at is perhaps with

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30 years of experience,

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introducing someone to Emacs might be

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difficult because you've you're too much of

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an expert. So maybe the there's a an idea of

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like what are the principles of pedagogy.

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I know we that was talked about yesterday in

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a presentation about like here's a

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constraint, you're using Emacs for the

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course. But so it's that idea of sharing what

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you have, where you're at,

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will, I think by nature,

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move the entire queue of people,

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like they don't really exist.

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I mean, they do, but they don't.

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Behind you, it'll help move them together

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forward just a little bit.

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And maybe we all move the condition together.

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So It's not a only 1 person kind of thing.

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It's a mindset of improving shared

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understanding.

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[Speaker 0]: Exactly, and I'd like to come back on

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something that you mentioned in your answer,

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because it's, you know,

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what the person asking the question

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mentioned, 30 years of advance,

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basically, on starting Emacs.

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You know, that's a lot of time,

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And you tend to equate this to a massive gap

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in terms of skills between the 2 people.

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And whilst it's obvious that would be a gap

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of skills. You know, I find that learning in

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terms of pedagogy works best when the person

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doing the teaching is very close in terms of

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skill levels to the person being taught.

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Why is it the case? It's because it's much

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fresher in their memory what are the

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different elements that they have to go

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through to acquire a particular skill.

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To go a little bit into the theory,

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I'm not sure if you're familiar with Vygotsky

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or at least the I plus 1.

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Are you familiar with this,

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[Speaker 1]: I am not, go on.

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[Speaker 0]: Jeremy? So I used to be a teacher before,

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and it's 1 of the things they taught us.

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It's about the fact that when you are trying

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to make someone acquire a skill,

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I represents the current knowledge,

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and plus 1 is the thing that you should be

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teaching them and the theory behind it is

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that it's much easier to teach someone to

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teach something to someone when they only

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have to focus on plus 1 i.e.

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Something that is very close nearby to them

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If you go with something that is I plus 2,

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I plus 3, or god forbid I plus 10,

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it's going to be much harder for them to get

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to the understanding because the distance is

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much greater. And that's why I think

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mentoring can be taken in 2 ways.

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It could be a mentor who's merely ahead of

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you by plus 1, or it could be a mentor that

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is ahead of you by plus 10,

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but who has the understanding of what plus 1,

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plus 2, and plus 3 is.

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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, and it can be very challenging to

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unwind that. I know if we think about all of

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our hands or input methods have a memory of

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something that I honestly couldn't tell you

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what it is. Right? Like,

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I know how to do it on a keyboard,

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right? We've internalized so much.

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And so, yeah, how to walk backward is a

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distinct challenge and being curious with

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them and close to them and not asking,

00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:00.800
trying to diffuse questions and not ask like

00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:03.620
leading, not overly leading.

00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:09.780
An example, early on in my mentoring career,

00:13:11.260 --> 00:13:11.760
I was working in a community project,

00:13:14.280 --> 00:13:14.480
and I really wanted to go in and say to

00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:18.500
everybody, why do we suck at sharing code?

00:13:21.020 --> 00:13:21.520
But instead I said, wait a minute,

00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:25.080
what would be the question I could ask the

00:13:27.680 --> 00:13:28.180
group in which I could then ask my question?

00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:30.720
So instead I went into the group and I said,

00:13:32.560 --> 00:13:33.060
how are we doing about sharing code?

00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:37.620
And collectively, we were able to establish

00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:39.700
we didn't feel very good about it.

00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:43.240
And that conversation now 9 years ago,

00:13:47.020 --> 00:13:47.300
helped move a process along for the last,

00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:50.380
like it gave it energy for 9 years of how

00:13:51.560 --> 00:13:52.060
we're sharing and how we're approaching

00:13:58.260 --> 00:13:58.760
stuff. So yeah, the curious questions are

00:14:00.060 --> 00:14:00.560
super helpful.

00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:04.940
[Speaker 0]: All right, lovely way to finish this point.

00:14:06.940 --> 00:14:07.200
We have about 10 more minutes so I'm glad

00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:08.800
that we have a little bit of extra time to

00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:10.920
answer the questions because we have a little

00:14:13.740 --> 00:14:13.940
more. All right, I'm gonna switch to the next

00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:15.480
question we can come back to people reacting

00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:17.220
to what you just said a little bit later.

00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:17.640
[Speaker 2]: Sure.

00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:20.860
[Speaker 0]: All right, have you encountered anyone that

00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:24.000
are being negative about the fact that you're

00:14:26.400 --> 00:14:26.600
using Emacs, assuming that they just don't

00:14:28.740 --> 00:14:28.940
know or have misconceptions about Emacs and

00:14:30.340 --> 00:14:30.700
nothing malicious? If so,

00:14:32.220 --> 00:14:32.720
how do you handle these kinds of people?

00:14:40.640 --> 00:14:40.840
[Speaker 1]: Sure, So at work, I get a gentle elbowing of

00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:43.220
like, oh, Jeremy's going to talk about Emacs

00:14:45.900 --> 00:14:46.400
again. So it's not entirely...

00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:51.100
Maybe it's a little dismissive,

00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:57.340
but I don't actually care because like it's

00:15:00.160 --> 00:15:00.240
like being, I don't know,

00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:02.480
it's like being made fun of for using a

00:15:03.560 --> 00:15:04.060
particular type of pen.

00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:06.180
Like goal is to write something,

00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:09.580
right? And I'm using a pen that gives me joy.

00:15:11.740 --> 00:15:12.240
When I talk with my mentees,

00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:14.440
like I want to meet them exactly where

00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.200
they're at with their code and like what

00:15:20.860 --> 00:15:21.260
they're comfortable with and help them remove

00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:23.600
any of that potential like inadequacy,

00:15:27.800 --> 00:15:27.980
sense of inadequacy or imposter syndrome or

00:15:32.980 --> 00:15:33.480
any of those things because The goal is to,

00:15:36.380 --> 00:15:36.880
for me, to be better at computering.

00:15:39.800 --> 00:15:40.300
Like hop on my computer.

00:15:45.060 --> 00:15:45.220
I want to be able to use it at a speed of

00:15:47.680 --> 00:15:47.800
thought that doesn't introduce a lot of

00:15:50.660 --> 00:15:51.160
friction. Another speaker talked about that

00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.200
using HyperBowl and a couple of plugins to

00:15:55.260 --> 00:15:55.760
write stream of consciousness.

00:15:57.980 --> 00:15:58.480
And that was an important consideration.

00:16:01.060 --> 00:16:01.380
I want my text editor to flow with me.

00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:02.420
And so I'm like, well,

00:16:03.560 --> 00:16:04.060
Emacs flows with me smooth.

00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:08.720
Like you can deride it all you want.

00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.360
It doesn't thread very well,

00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:12.580
but it's just me on this machine.

00:16:14.120 --> 00:16:14.440
I don't need it to overly thread,

00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:16.220
at least for my use cases.

00:16:22.340 --> 00:16:22.600
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I can only agree 100% with what you've

00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:26.300
just said. And it's very easy to dismiss

00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.160
stuff like Vim or Emacs based on the very

00:16:31.260 --> 00:16:31.760
trite sentences that everyone use.

00:16:32.440 --> 00:16:32.640
But at the end of the day,

00:16:33.540 --> 00:16:34.040
I really like what you said.

00:16:36.280 --> 00:16:36.780
Those are just pencil that we're using to

00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:39.280
express ourselves. And we're doing something

00:16:41.820 --> 00:16:42.080
a little more fancy than just writing words

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:44.180
on a page. But ultimately,

00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:46.880
It's just text at the very bottom.

00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:49.060
So whatever helps us write this test,

00:16:50.540 --> 00:16:51.040
this text more easily,

00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:53.460
you know, it's always good.

00:16:56.680 --> 00:16:56.980
Yeah. All right. Moving on to the next

00:16:59.360 --> 00:16:59.820
question. I love the attitudes and worldview

00:17:02.980 --> 00:17:03.160
that infuse your blog post and your talk this

00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:05.900
weekend. Learn something every week.

00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:08.680
It's cumulative. English class was the most

00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:11.520
important. What other advice do you have and

00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:13.859
how is it generalizable to those of us who

00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:14.940
are not devs?

00:17:26.280 --> 00:17:26.780
[Speaker 1]: Sure. So I think 1 of the really big changes

00:17:29.140 --> 00:17:29.320
for me, and I talked about this in the

00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:35.200
writing Q&A, is switching my blog from a

00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:38.480
topical 1 about role-playing games and board

00:17:43.320 --> 00:17:43.480
games into anything that I think I want to

00:17:47.220 --> 00:17:47.440
write. And that shift happened about the time

00:17:50.380 --> 00:17:50.560
that I was really exploring using Emacs for

00:17:54.060 --> 00:17:54.560
writing. And so previously I had,

00:17:57.860 --> 00:17:58.360
I would write blog posts in Markdown using,

00:18:00.560 --> 00:18:01.060
or I would write it in the web interface.

00:18:06.820 --> 00:18:07.060
And getting to the point where my writing was

00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:08.980
the same as my coding,

00:18:12.040 --> 00:18:12.540
was the same as my RSS consumption,

00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:15.560
was the same of a lot of these things,

00:18:21.260 --> 00:18:21.560
freed up my general interests so that they

00:18:23.860 --> 00:18:24.360
all can kind of play in that space.

00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:27.940
So and that's the, I think,

00:18:33.080 --> 00:18:33.540
Feynman said, like, his notes are his

00:18:35.860 --> 00:18:36.360
thoughts. It's not him thinking,

00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:38.980
I mean, they are him thinking as well.

00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:41.180
So it's really framing it that way.

00:18:44.180 --> 00:18:44.680
And then for not devs,

00:18:49.060 --> 00:18:49.240
My daughter has been doing screenwriting and

00:18:53.180 --> 00:18:53.480
she just had her school license for the tool

00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:55.220
that they use for writing screenplays.

00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:57.660
She had to pay for it on her own.

00:18:59.540 --> 00:18:59.680
And I was like, hey, let's take a look at

00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:01.500
Emacs. There's a package for this.

00:19:03.320 --> 00:19:03.820
Maybe it makes sense to you.

00:19:09.520 --> 00:19:09.720
So I think the, really to summarize it is

00:19:12.280 --> 00:19:12.780
like the broad curiosity in like,

00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:14.820
I have a liberal arts degree,

00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:21.420
I have barely any computer science classwork

00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:24.400
practice. I have a lot of practical

00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:26.700
experience doing software development,

00:19:28.320 --> 00:19:28.820
but theory is minimal.

00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:32.520
Instead, I look to things like Lord of the

00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:35.840
Rings or role-playing games or poetry or

00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:41.020
history or whatever and be curious and Then

00:19:47.260 --> 00:19:47.760
be playful The introduction of git locally

00:19:51.060 --> 00:19:51.340
where I can just have a Git repo means my

00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:57.340
text is recoverable. I don't,

00:19:59.060 --> 00:19:59.320
I can play. I'll just break it,

00:20:00.320 --> 00:20:00.800
I'll change it. It's software,

00:20:02.860 --> 00:20:03.360
let it be soft. It's not hard.

00:20:05.740 --> 00:20:06.100
It can be hard to work with it,

00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:08.520
but let it be soft. Let it be pruned,

00:20:09.780 --> 00:20:10.120
let it go away, let it die,

00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:11.700
let it come back.

00:20:16.360 --> 00:20:16.800
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, That's a lovely attitude to have.

00:20:20.980 --> 00:20:21.160
I mean, I've already talked about my past as

00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:23.860
an English major in 1 of the EmacsConf talks,

00:20:26.520 --> 00:20:26.780
but just like you, I don't have a comp sci

00:20:30.140 --> 00:20:30.200
education. I just started with needing a

00:20:32.120 --> 00:20:32.620
better pen, and that was about 10 years ago.

00:20:36.660 --> 00:20:37.020
And now I find myself hosting Emacs Cons,

00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:39.140
but it was a very incremental process,

00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.660
a very cumulative process,

00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:43.220
to reuse the word that we used before.

00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:48.740
And What I also like about people outside of

00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:50.140
CompSight using Emacs,

00:20:53.300 --> 00:20:53.480
and we've got plenty of such examples in the

00:20:54.940 --> 00:20:55.320
presentations we've had this year,

00:20:57.720 --> 00:20:57.940
but also last year, is that you get so many

00:21:00.540 --> 00:21:00.920
different windows into how people are using

00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:03.480
Emacs, and it kind of harks back to what I

00:21:06.340 --> 00:21:06.560
was saying before about Emacs being a

00:21:08.380 --> 00:21:08.880
platform with many horizontal packages

00:21:10.560 --> 00:21:11.060
permitting any kind of workflow imaginable

00:21:13.580 --> 00:21:14.080
and some people are going to gravitate

00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:16.640
towards old mode. I think it was your sister

00:21:18.520 --> 00:21:19.020
that you mentioned that was looking into

00:21:20.760 --> 00:21:21.260
packages for writing screenplays.

00:21:23.220 --> 00:21:23.520
Well, we've got such a thing in Emacs.

00:21:26.260 --> 00:21:26.760
I mean, a screenplay is just a monospace font

00:21:27.900 --> 00:21:28.400
with some fancy formatting.

00:21:29.300 --> 00:21:29.800
It's not very complicated.

00:21:32.460 --> 00:21:32.960
And if you can get behind,

00:21:36.280 --> 00:21:36.720
you know, someone using such a stable format

00:21:38.480 --> 00:21:38.940
for writing screenplay with many rules,

00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:40.840
but ultimately all the screenplay look the

00:21:42.520 --> 00:21:42.780
same, well, Emacs is kind of just the same.

00:21:45.060 --> 00:21:45.480
It's about standardizing the way you edit

00:21:47.760 --> 00:21:48.000
text. So I think your sister was already half

00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:51.760
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was my it was my my daughter.

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:52.840
I'm trying to sell her on.

00:21:53.320 --> 00:21:53.800
[Speaker 0]: on the idea. Oh, no, sorry.

00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:56.640
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, she also picked up programming just 1

00:21:58.140 --> 00:21:58.640
day and was like, I forget that.

00:22:01.360 --> 00:22:01.860
Like she was playing with a stage manager

00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:03.580
programming thing or like have a little

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:05.140
avatars moving around.

00:22:11.280 --> 00:22:11.480
And so she's got a predisposition to like the

00:22:15.620 --> 00:22:16.020
craft of things. And I think that's another

00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:18.820
aspect is like, I'm not,

00:22:21.080 --> 00:22:21.580
I mean, I appreciate science.

00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:23.540
I'm here for a scientific approach,

00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:28.440
but I also Really enjoy the craft of things

00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:33.000
Playing with it Like this is my playground.

00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.180
I love kind of hacking on it and looking at

00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:39.360
packages and Seeing how I might use it pick

00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:42.340
it up for a little bit and then maybe I

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.380
forget about it

00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:48.440
[Speaker 0]: Right, well Jeremy I think that was Lovely

00:22:49.860 --> 00:22:50.180
finish. Oh, sorry plasma.

00:22:51.380 --> 00:22:51.760
Oh, sorry. I thought he was someone on Mumble

00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:54.780
talking to me. I'm actually going to have to

00:22:56.200 --> 00:22:56.600
be sorry because we only have about 50

00:22:58.000 --> 00:22:58.320
seconds until we move on to the next talk.

00:22:59.600 --> 00:23:00.040
But please, Plasma Strike,

00:23:01.120 --> 00:23:01.560
If you want to ask your question to Jeremy,

00:23:02.720 --> 00:23:03.220
by all means, stay in the room.

00:23:04.120 --> 00:23:04.620
[Speaker 1]: Yep, I'll be here.

00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:07.900
[Speaker 0]: And we'll be recording all of this and we'll

00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:09.940
put this later on the talk page.

00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:12.560
So Jeremy, I'll have to say bye now because I

00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:14.160
need to prepare the next room.

00:23:16.320 --> 00:23:16.440
But It was lovely talking with you and thank

00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:17.540
you for all your answers.

00:23:19.040 --> 00:23:19.540
[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Thank you.

00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:21.720
[Speaker 0]: Bye-bye. Bye.

NOTE Start of section to review

00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.580
[Speaker 2]: See you. Hello. One of the things with Emacs is

00:23:28.740 --> 00:23:28.900
it's not... It's like when you change the

00:23:30.860 --> 00:23:31.260
file management, you just change very,

00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:33.980
very small amounts of what exactly you need,

00:23:38.040 --> 00:23:38.360
you want to change. Like you go from text

00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:43.860
editing to your file manager,

00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:45.220
you're not changing your theme,

00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:47.180
you're not changing your font.

00:23:49.940 --> 00:23:50.060
[Speaker 3]: And you

00:23:52.360 --> 00:23:52.500
[Speaker 2]: use your bookmarks, you use your bookmarks in

00:23:54.340 --> 00:23:54.840
your emails, you use your bookmarks in your

00:23:59.380 --> 00:23:59.880
org-mod documents, you use it in E-dub,

00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:02.960
W-W buffers if you use that,

00:24:06.760 --> 00:24:06.940
but it's just the, Yeah,

00:24:10.080 --> 00:24:10.580
it's just the least amount of Incremental

00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:11.440
changes

00:24:14.620 --> 00:24:14.900
[Speaker 1]: yeah, you're when you were talking about like

00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:18.980
the Reducing friction like turn off editing

00:24:22.280 --> 00:24:22.480
or not editing, but auto correct while you're

00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:25.940
typing, it's absolutely spot on.

00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:30.300
You're wanting to get whatever is flowing

00:24:31.280 --> 00:24:31.720
needs to keep flowing,

00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:34.200
like as a programmer or as a creative,

00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:38.600
anytime I can hit flow is my goal.

00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:42.740
And so paying attention to what removes flow

00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:48.980
or hinders it or saps energy and that unified

00:24:52.800 --> 00:24:53.080
environment of Emacs is really helpful to

00:24:57.260 --> 00:24:57.760
maintain that. So yeah.

00:25:02.300 --> 00:25:02.580
[Speaker 2]: I think it's about speed and then once after

00:25:04.040 --> 00:25:04.540
you get some of that, then you're like,

00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:06.920
well, yeah, it's important,

00:25:09.320 --> 00:25:09.820
but this is like the last thing I care about.

00:25:14.280 --> 00:25:14.780
[Speaker 1]: Right. Speed is all like,

00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:20.200
Yeah, there's a quote that I love called,

00:25:22.940 --> 00:25:23.440
I forget the author. It's,

00:25:30.060 --> 00:25:30.260
there is a connection between slowness and

00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:34.460
remembering and fastness and forgetting.

00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:40.180
And the slowness is an interesting,

00:25:43.520 --> 00:25:43.840
like it's, I am moving fast in Emacs because

00:25:46.020 --> 00:25:46.520
I've forgotten how I'm doing it.

00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:48.420
I just do it now, right?

00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:52.360
And then the slowness of like being in my

00:25:57.540 --> 00:25:57.720
thought and staying on that stream is where I

00:26:01.700 --> 00:26:02.200
want to be and ride whatever that pathway is.

00:26:07.540 --> 00:26:07.680
And a text editor is still hard to do that

00:26:10.260 --> 00:26:10.520
because if I were using a pen and paper it's

00:26:11.600 --> 00:26:12.100
more cumbersome to auto-edit.

00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:18.800
But I can't get it out without losing my

00:26:21.180 --> 00:26:21.440
thinking. And so I ended up having to type

00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:21.940
it.

00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:25.640
[Speaker 3]: Something I've been experimenting with is

00:26:26.600 --> 00:26:27.100
using, well, recording.

00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.700
Some other people are using dictation for

00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:32.260
this to just get the blur out of the ideas

00:26:35.280 --> 00:26:35.500
and you can go back and glean some of that

00:26:36.200 --> 00:26:36.700
stuff out of it.

00:26:41.320 --> 00:26:41.680
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, what I will do when I'm capturing like

00:26:44.760 --> 00:26:45.260
quotes or epigraphs is I will almost always

00:26:47.760 --> 00:26:47.960
turn on dictation because I got a book in 1

00:26:52.020 --> 00:26:52.520
hand. So I'm like, on goes the typing.

00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:56.940
And yeah, that is, there's a,

00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:00.180
I'm really thankful that that exists as well.

00:27:01.260 --> 00:27:01.760
Like my mother is blind.

00:27:05.020 --> 00:27:05.520
And so having that helps her and me

00:27:08.560 --> 00:27:09.060
communicate Through text because we're both

00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:13.400
able to appreciate it And use it in a way

00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:15.980
that is accessible for both of us

00:27:19.120 --> 00:27:19.620
[Speaker 3]: Go ahead

00:27:23.100 --> 00:27:23.600
[Speaker 2]: There's the L feet to package which will

00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:25.200
which will allow you to both of us.

00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:25.440
There's the ElfieTube package which will

00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:28.820
allow you to subscribe to a YouTube channel

00:27:32.500 --> 00:27:33.000
and then download the subtitles and give you

00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:36.940
remote control access to the MPV player to

00:27:37.700 --> 00:27:38.200
watch the YouTube thing.

00:27:41.420 --> 00:27:41.920
And considering you have a really big

00:27:44.580 --> 00:27:44.680
subtitle thing that you can click at the

00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:45.660
various different places,

00:27:47.860 --> 00:27:48.280
it's really surprising about how different

00:27:49.300 --> 00:27:49.800
that makes YouTube feel.

00:27:50.680 --> 00:27:51.180
[Speaker 1]: Yeah I've...

00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:54.340
[Speaker 2]: And then on top of that about how much like

00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:57.800
if you've used it why would you never have

00:27:59.160 --> 00:27:59.660
thought about that before because it's...

00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:01.220
Right. It's even better.

00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:05.340
[Speaker 1]: Right absolutely. Sasha?

00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:10.440
[Speaker 3]: Oh I would say I do use the caption slot also

00:28:11.580 --> 00:28:12.040
when I'm skimming through stuff for Emacs

00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:14.240
News. But for books specifically,

00:28:18.420 --> 00:28:18.600
I often use Google Lens to just capture the

00:28:21.900 --> 00:28:22.200
text and copy it so that I don't have to deal

00:28:24.140 --> 00:28:24.640
with recognition errors or whatever.

00:28:25.760 --> 00:28:26.260
really useful.

00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:32.280
[Speaker 1]: It's just So 1 of my hobbies is role-playing

00:28:35.980 --> 00:28:36.100
games and the tabular data that is in the

00:28:38.940 --> 00:28:39.440
role-playing books is never in correct,

00:28:43.160 --> 00:28:43.380
like copy it out. And so I was like this is

00:28:46.260 --> 00:28:46.680
really annoying And I ended up taking

00:28:47.720 --> 00:28:48.220
screenshots on my machine,

00:28:50.280 --> 00:28:50.780
running Tesseract to pipe it in,

00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:53.980
and then using Emacs to like edit it because

00:28:57.940 --> 00:28:58.100
Tesseract adheres to the column format that

00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:00.680
I'm looking for. And I'm really thankful that

00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:06.100
we're at a place where the OCR is in good

00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:10.120
shape. That's part of my day job is working

00:29:14.180 --> 00:29:14.680
on some old documents that OCR is good,

00:29:18.100 --> 00:29:18.600
but not great because of like their 19th

00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:23.920
century documents, but having that ability to

00:29:28.080 --> 00:29:28.220
me is really powerful because we're gonna be

00:29:32.580 --> 00:29:32.900
able to share that text And also then once

00:29:35.860 --> 00:29:36.360
it's understood in what it's ASCII or UTF-8

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:39.500
encoding is, it can be translated as well.

00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:42.460
So we can make it even more generally

00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:46.720
available, which I think is a nice thing to

00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:47.220
have.

00:29:51.820 --> 00:29:52.320
[Speaker 3]: I wanted to go back to the topic of mentoring

00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:54.240
since that's something that I'm very much

00:29:55.940 --> 00:29:56.400
interested in figuring out how to facilitate

00:29:56.980 --> 00:29:57.480
in the Emacs community.

00:30:00.520 --> 00:30:00.720
Other people have been working on kind of

00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:03.900
remote mentoring initiatives with Emacs

00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:07.860
Buddy. And there are meetups as well that

00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:09.340
kind of get that sense of like,

00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:10.840
you know, what people are doing things and

00:30:12.040 --> 00:30:12.500
then somebody can look over their shoulder

00:30:14.060 --> 00:30:14.260
and say, hey, have you ever thought about

00:30:15.060 --> 00:30:15.560
[Speaker 1]: Right.

00:30:17.780 --> 00:30:18.040
[Speaker 3]: this? Is there any things that you can can

00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:20.820
suggest specifically in the context of this

00:30:23.180 --> 00:30:23.680
kind of mentoring over a distance?

00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:26.180
Any chance you've thought about it?

00:30:30.800 --> 00:30:30.920
[Speaker 1]: I'm on the Emacs buddy repo and I've had a

00:30:32.600 --> 00:30:33.100
handful of people reach out to me.

00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:37.920
Most often we start with email and every so

00:30:38.980 --> 00:30:39.320
often it'll be like, hey,

00:30:44.340 --> 00:30:44.840
let's hop on some kind of video or audio,

00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:47.820
even just done phone calls.

00:30:53.140 --> 00:30:53.480
Yeah, I haven't done any of the like shared

00:30:57.220 --> 00:30:57.500
buffer stuff. I know like at work we have

00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.200
replit where we can use that.

00:31:02.500 --> 00:31:03.000
Seeing the presentation on CDRT,

00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:04.940
I was like, oh, that's really great.

00:31:10.760 --> 00:31:11.140
But what I found is being able to see

00:31:15.280 --> 00:31:15.720
someone, I don't get to see them typing,

00:31:17.640 --> 00:31:17.840
but I get to see the results of what they're

00:31:18.840 --> 00:31:19.340
doing on the computer.

00:31:22.840 --> 00:31:23.040
You know paying attention to that is the big

00:31:26.040 --> 00:31:26.540
1 to help them think of a different way.

00:31:28.940 --> 00:31:29.160
Depending on where they're at when they're

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:33.460
writing if they are like at a pause point,

00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:35.460
if I'm at my best, I'll be like,

00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:38.360
so what are you thinking?

00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:41.140
Where are you stuck? Cause maybe they're

00:31:43.040 --> 00:31:43.280
trying to navigate somewhere and that starts

00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:46.720
to create a point for a conversation of like,

00:31:48.280 --> 00:31:48.780
how do I go from here to there?

00:31:57.340 --> 00:31:57.520
And so it's looking for those moments is

00:31:58.840 --> 00:31:59.340
where I try to operate.

00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:04.240
[Speaker 3]: And sometimes, you know,

00:32:05.380 --> 00:32:05.600
so there's kind of like,

00:32:06.760 --> 00:32:07.120
how do you go from here to there?

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:08.500
And sometimes even the,

00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:12.540
what there should I be going for is a

00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:15.160
challenge, right? Because especially with

00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:16.980
Emacs newbies, they might not necessarily

00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:19.540
know what's possible or what's nearby in

00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:21.700
terms of what their current knowledge is.

00:32:23.760 --> 00:32:24.120
And that's an interesting thing to map out.

00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:26.400
Is that something that you've thought about

00:32:29.020 --> 00:32:29.280
and as you're conversing with all these

00:32:29.280 --> 00:32:29.780
people?

00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:37.840
[Speaker 1]: The main thing, the main function that I do

00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:38.940
talk, I talked about this,

00:32:41.240 --> 00:32:41.740
I think in the, I did in the talk where it's,

00:32:46.320 --> 00:32:46.660
I need to jump between the test and the

00:32:50.900 --> 00:32:51.400
implementation. And since 2005,

00:32:56.200 --> 00:32:56.480
I've had that. And I watch folks not have

00:32:57.880 --> 00:32:58.100
that. I'm just like, Oh,

00:33:00.380 --> 00:33:00.540
my goodness, like there's a convention in the

00:33:02.500 --> 00:33:02.720
language we work in. Let's get that

00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:04.580
installed. Let's get it going.

00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:07.840
Like that's 1 thing, that's 1 access I know

00:33:11.740 --> 00:33:11.880
they're gonna go to. Another 1 is the jump to

00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:14.600
definition. And I've never gotten like C

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:16.960
tags. I haven't really spent time on that,

00:33:18.600 --> 00:33:19.100
but with the advent of LSP,

00:33:21.040 --> 00:33:21.540
it works a lot better.

00:33:24.520 --> 00:33:25.020
And so I try to get people to use that.

00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:30.640
And what I've noticed weirdly is like VS

00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:34.400
code, it doesn't work as well as I would have

00:33:36.340 --> 00:33:36.500
thought. And there's lots of like errors and

00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:38.560
warnings popping up in the bottom corner.

00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.280
So I'm like, well, you gotta pay attention to

00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:46.140
that. But I try not to get into anybody's

00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:48.120
business about like, I'm like,

00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:49.120
maybe we could fix that.

00:33:50.020 --> 00:33:50.280
Maybe we can clean it up,

00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:52.240
but it's your, you know,

00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:54.940
it's your car you're driving.

00:33:56.320 --> 00:33:56.760
I'm just long for a ride.

00:33:57.620 --> 00:33:58.120
It's safe, we're fine.

00:34:01.360 --> 00:34:01.860
So yeah, that jumped to definition.

00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:08.440
And then the, I mean, search in project,

00:34:10.080 --> 00:34:10.580
like everybody understanding that.

00:34:15.219 --> 00:34:15.380
But I feel that the, like I mentioned in the

00:34:17.980 --> 00:34:18.480
talk, the advent of orderless is just huge.

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:21.659
I did not realize how much I loved it because

00:34:24.159 --> 00:34:24.480
I don't have to think about things and can

00:34:28.080 --> 00:34:28.580
have slightly more forgiving default

00:34:34.340 --> 00:34:34.840
searches. Yeah, it's hard.

00:34:39.159 --> 00:34:39.440
The principles of organizing 10 things versus

00:34:41.040 --> 00:34:41.540
100 versus 1,000 versus 10,000

00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:44.940
are just, they're not the same.

00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:52.540
[Speaker 2]: A common hang up for, that would easily make

00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:54.820
you skip off of Emacs,

00:35:00.920 --> 00:35:01.040
Org Mode, Hyperbole is if you go into any of

00:35:03.680 --> 00:35:04.040
those with the mindset of I'm going to master

00:35:05.080 --> 00:35:05.580
it all before I use it.

00:35:06.640 --> 00:35:07.140
That's not going to work.

00:35:13.660 --> 00:35:13.860
[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. I was terrified of org mode when

00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:15.060
I started because I'm like,

00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:17.040
I don't need to organize my life.

00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:20.960
I need to like type. And then that,

00:35:24.520 --> 00:35:25.020
yes, incremental. What did I find helpful?

00:35:28.580 --> 00:35:29.080
[Speaker 2]: It's for the, for the Linux CLI toolbox,

00:35:30.860 --> 00:35:31.360
but you have to look at them as more of just,

00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:35.140
I have a whole bunch of tools available to me

00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:39.360
and I'll just pick them up as I have a

00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.680
problem and as I, and as the tool can be

00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:44.940
useful for this problem and incrementally.

00:35:47.700 --> 00:35:48.200
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. It's

00:35:54.760 --> 00:35:55.080
[Speaker 3]: actually, so, in fact,

00:35:56.180 --> 00:35:56.400
when when I'm mentoring people,

00:35:58.440 --> 00:35:58.580
I have to take a step back and say,

00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:00.760
OK, what are we with the note taking thing

00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:02.140
that you mentioned in your talk.

00:36:03.120 --> 00:36:03.480
How do you like to take notes?

00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:05.140
How do you like to keep track of the things

00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:06.600
that you want to work on when you have an

00:36:07.540 --> 00:36:08.040
idea? Where does it go?

00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:10.820
Because if you improve that practice,

00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.180
and especially if you can sneak some literate

00:36:14.540 --> 00:36:15.040
programming in without them really noticing,

00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:18.160
then it becomes the thing that they can use

00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:19.400
to learn more efficiently.

00:36:23.200 --> 00:36:23.700
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. I was presenting at,

00:36:26.600 --> 00:36:27.100
I wasn't presenting at this seminar,

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:30.920
but I attended it and it was a crash course

00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:32.300
in command line tools.

00:36:35.520 --> 00:36:36.020
And I didn't, I mean, I went there to listen

00:36:38.660 --> 00:36:38.800
and there was a point where the people were

00:36:40.560 --> 00:36:41.060
like, I use this command line tool.

00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:42.860
I'm not a programmer, I'm a librarian,

00:36:45.040 --> 00:36:45.060
I'm an archivist. I use it,

00:36:47.080 --> 00:36:47.580
I'm like, great, I'm gonna remember this.

00:36:49.640 --> 00:36:49.820
And then I forget about it and I might use it

00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:54.520
6 months from now. And so I tried to

00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.380
encourage everybody, like come up with,

00:37:00.580 --> 00:37:00.740
like you have a degree in knowledge and

00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:02.820
information, management and organization,

00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:06.660
introspect, right? Spend some time on it.

00:37:09.740 --> 00:37:10.240
Think about what is a way that I can do this

00:37:13.180 --> 00:37:13.360
and ask questions to get to the point where

00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:19.240
you can create a discoverable inventory of

00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:23.000
the tools you've used and what that means.

00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:26.660
And my answer was, I use literate programming

00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:31.300
or I shove it in my bin directory in GitHub

00:37:34.080 --> 00:37:34.300
and like, I don't know if I'll remember it,

00:37:35.860 --> 00:37:36.020
but I can go there every now and then and be

00:37:37.120 --> 00:37:37.620
like, oh yeah, that command.

00:37:44.220 --> 00:37:44.720
So note taking is the most critical component

00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:47.120
of any number of work.

00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:52.360
[Speaker 3]: Sometimes I wonder if we can maybe

00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:54.500
externalize some of all this mentoring

00:37:57.520 --> 00:37:57.720
insight and kind of like this choose your own

00:37:59.700 --> 00:37:59.920
adventure thing, where the person says,

00:38:01.200 --> 00:38:01.700
OK, this is what I got at the moment.

00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:03.960
And then through a series of diagnostic

00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:06.220
questions, we can figure out what hurts,

00:38:08.040 --> 00:38:08.220
right? Where is the thing that they would

00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:09.240
like to learn more about?

00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:10.460
And then, okay, if that hurts,

00:38:12.620 --> 00:38:13.120
try this and keep that manageable.

00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:15.880
And if there's only a way to also be able to

00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:17.720
capture each person's state,

00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:19.840
the things that they know about and have

00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:21.480
absorbed into their habits.

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:23.200
So you can say, right,

00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:25.760
you know, my recommendation for someone who's

00:38:28.580 --> 00:38:28.940
brand new to org is not the same as somebody

00:38:30.060 --> 00:38:30.480
who's like, okay, they've got their agendas

00:38:31.400 --> 00:38:31.800
and everything set up already.

00:38:33.680 --> 00:38:34.180
Just how do we represent that as like WISPs?

00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:39.720
[Speaker 1]: I've given up on trying to map that.

00:38:43.180 --> 00:38:43.440
I like the one-on-one conversations and

00:38:47.480 --> 00:38:47.980
discovery. And I think that's the part where

00:38:51.980 --> 00:38:52.120
you're looking at, you're asking about how do

00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:56.320
we make the process and like I heard,

00:38:58.860 --> 00:38:59.040
like how do we help equip those who want to

00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:01.960
mentor as well, right?

00:39:05.900 --> 00:39:05.970
Making that, reducing the barrier in a way.

00:39:06.040 --> 00:39:06.180
[Speaker 2]: I don't

00:39:08.240 --> 00:39:08.740
[Speaker 3]: know, I think what you said about enjoying

00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:10.680
the conversation and the fact that it is

00:39:12.080 --> 00:39:12.580
really unique for each person,

00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:15.260
each situation that comes up.

00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:18.840
I suspect what it just comes down to is more

00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:22.020
like capturing the good stuff of each

00:39:23.160 --> 00:39:23.660
mentoring session or whatever.

00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:26.120
Maybe it's getting the mentees to write very

00:39:27.700 --> 00:39:27.900
short blog posts about what they learned this

00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:29.280
week or whatever else.

00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:31.400
And then, oh, yeah, you know,

00:39:33.700 --> 00:39:33.900
we ran into the same problem 3 months ago.

00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:36.440
Let me go look it up. And then that becomes a

00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:37.580
reusable segment.

00:39:41.280 --> 00:39:41.780
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, when I worked at a coding bootcamp,

00:39:46.420 --> 00:39:46.720
they tried to encourage the mentors to say,

00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:49.820
like write a blog posts for the mentees.

00:39:57.160 --> 00:39:57.380
And that was, some of them did,

00:40:01.980 --> 00:40:02.140
but it was intimidating because like they

00:40:03.260 --> 00:40:03.760
didn't wanna, I don't know.

00:40:06.900 --> 00:40:07.360
Are we enculturated in an education system

00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:09.920
where we can't get it wrong or we need to

00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:11.980
look like we're more of an expert than we

00:40:15.720 --> 00:40:16.220
are? I don't know. I have a lot of like,

00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:17.960
I'm a middle aged white guy,

00:40:20.140 --> 00:40:20.640
I've got a lot of background and privilege in

00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:25.680
my career. So like, it's not as scary to put

00:40:28.620 --> 00:40:28.860
something forward for myself as it might be

00:40:31.080 --> 00:40:31.240
as like a woman in tech or a minority in

00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:35.900
tech, because that's a different place.

00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.400
And I want to really get done with that.

00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:41.260
I don't like that at all.

00:40:43.820 --> 00:40:44.320
And I would love our, like,

00:40:46.640 --> 00:40:47.140
just write. And it doesn't have to be public,

00:40:48.540 --> 00:40:49.040
right? You don't have to make it public,

00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:52.380
but if you make it discoverable to yourself,

00:40:58.320 --> 00:40:58.820
that's the big thing. And 1 of my coworkers,

00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:05.020
She doesn't blog, but she definitely has a

00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.480
large knowledge base of stuff that she

00:41:08.980 --> 00:41:09.140
references because she's pulling out all

00:41:10.520 --> 00:41:10.760
kinds of stuff and I'm like whatever you're

00:41:11.120 --> 00:41:11.620
doing is working.

00:41:17.920 --> 00:41:18.420
[Speaker 2]: I'm trying to have something.

00:41:23.680 --> 00:41:24.180
There's a good opportunity with the Emacs

00:41:25.680 --> 00:41:26.180
conference to accomplish this.

00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:28.920
So like if you make like a,

00:41:31.640 --> 00:41:32.140
because 1 of the things with it is,

00:41:36.600 --> 00:41:37.080
Sasha, you do a really good job of using all.

00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.000
You're the 1 who has the Emacs buffer with

00:41:39.780 --> 00:41:40.080
the time on it, right?

00:41:41.820 --> 00:41:41.980
Is that your screen that's being recorded for

00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:46.360
that? Because you have a really good example

00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:50.600
of a really consolidated emacs workflow that

00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.920
works really good with the Emacs conference

00:41:56.520 --> 00:41:56.800
so if you had like a page that described how

00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:00.460
you did all that stuff in the emacs

00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:04.360
conference like on that and then we then you

00:42:06.140 --> 00:42:06.380
did even more stuff with that.

00:42:09.560 --> 00:42:10.060
Like you do the org mode file that you can

00:42:12.140 --> 00:42:12.340
just put straight into your agenda for your

00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:14.940
time zone. I used that.

00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:17.800
That was really nice, just because it allowed

00:42:19.600 --> 00:42:19.900
me to reorganize and see how all the talks

00:42:21.580 --> 00:42:21.880
would work together, and which ones I wanted

00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:26.060
to do. You could add Org Mode to do tags with

00:42:31.020 --> 00:42:31.520
that, to say, plan to watch,

00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:36.360
I want to re-watch but I have to skip it

00:42:37.540 --> 00:42:38.000
because there's another talk I'm watching,

00:42:40.760 --> 00:42:41.260
you know, like a couple tags don't care about

00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:44.200
so that people can easily tag all the talks

00:42:47.360 --> 00:42:47.860
that they care about on top of that.

00:42:52.660 --> 00:42:53.160
And then with, I'm going to try to email

00:42:54.660 --> 00:42:54.900
these ideas on it too,

00:42:57.980 --> 00:42:58.480
but then you can also,

00:43:00.940 --> 00:43:01.440
you have the either pad questions,

00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:04.440
you could put all those in org-mode documents

00:43:08.300 --> 00:43:08.760
with crdt.el, post all those in the Emacs

00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:11.600
conference and then people could use that to

00:43:13.820 --> 00:43:13.980
edit all the documents at the same time so

00:43:15.160 --> 00:43:15.660
then everybody's actually collaboratively

00:43:20.180 --> 00:43:20.440
editing. And then people have all the

00:43:24.520 --> 00:43:25.020
scaffolding for if you do the Emacs meetings,

00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:27.940
buddy meetings, because they know exactly how

00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:30.180
to set it all up with that.

00:43:34.040 --> 00:43:34.540
And then you combine it with any number of

00:43:38.040 --> 00:43:38.360
whatever chat video program so that people

00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:40.280
can talk and watch each other.

00:43:45.420 --> 00:43:45.920
[Speaker 3]: I have a presentation later on EmacsConf

00:43:48.920 --> 00:43:49.200
infrastructure and I will capture the note

00:43:51.380 --> 00:43:51.600
And maybe I can include a mini tutorial in

00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:53.800
the schedule org so that people can be like,

00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:55.680
hey, by the way, you could refile these

00:43:58.860 --> 00:43:59.120
things into your own org files or tag them

00:44:01.520 --> 00:44:01.720
and here's a list thingy that filters your

00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:03.740
agenda by your tag or whatever,

00:44:04.940 --> 00:44:05.200
it'll be fine. But it's,

00:44:06.100 --> 00:44:06.600
you know, it's, it's kind of like,

00:44:09.640 --> 00:44:09.800
it is, you're right. It is an opportunity to

00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:12.800
expose people to more things that they could

00:44:14.620 --> 00:44:15.120
do in kind of a scaffolded way.

00:44:16.600 --> 00:44:16.880
That's interesting stuff,

00:44:18.780 --> 00:44:19.040
but I, your point actually driving also going

00:44:21.180 --> 00:44:21.680
back to previous parts of conversation about,

00:44:24.340 --> 00:44:24.546
it's difficult for people to share.

00:44:26.420 --> 00:44:26.720
When you realize, like I keep telling

00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:28.880
everyone, hey, if you blog about Emacs,

00:44:30.720 --> 00:44:30.920
you'll not only learn things for yourself and

00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:31.920
make things more searchable,

00:44:33.520 --> 00:44:33.740
other people will come by and tell you even

00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:35.340
better ways of doing things,

00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:37.080
which is something that always happens to me

00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:37.960
too, and I'm posting this.

00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:38.900
Has that ever happened?

00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:40.460
I'm sure that happens to you.

00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:45.520
[Speaker 1]: It's great. I love getting those things like,

00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:49.700
yeah, Howard's presentation on the game

00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:52.000
stuff. I'm like, I'm going to go explore that

00:44:54.560 --> 00:44:55.060
now. Because it's my little house.

00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:57.780
[Speaker 3]: You just have to make it less intimidating,

00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:01.100
right? And kind of change people's perception

00:45:03.420 --> 00:45:03.540
that, oh, blogging or sharing tutorials or

00:45:05.460 --> 00:45:05.860
whatever, that's then when you're an expert,

00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:06.840
when you're an experienced,

00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:09.720
to rather working out loud,

00:45:11.520 --> 00:45:11.740
thinking out loud, this is just that I'm

00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:13.300
learning along the way.

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:16.000
And it might not be the most efficient way to

00:45:17.720 --> 00:45:17.880
do things, but this is what I'm doing right

00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:18.380
now.

00:45:23.940 --> 00:45:24.180
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. And I had a handful of times where I

00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:26.000
posted something and someone was like,

00:45:27.620 --> 00:45:27.900
Oh yeah, this is, this would have you tried

00:45:30.060 --> 00:45:30.420
this? Or I'm like, I didn't even know that

00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:32.940
existed. That makes this easier.

00:45:37.540 --> 00:45:37.740
[Speaker 3]: I've written this like little hack and I'm

00:45:38.860 --> 00:45:39.140
very proud of it because it's clever.

00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:39.920
And then someone's like,

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:41.240
Oh yeah, there's a package for that.

00:45:42.720 --> 00:45:43.220
It's called this. Right?

00:45:43.660 --> 00:45:44.160
[Speaker 1]: Thank you. Right? Yeah.

00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:49.880
It's just it's Yeah, it the fantastic part

00:45:54.140 --> 00:45:54.240
it. I played Legos as a kid and me and my

00:45:55.760 --> 00:45:56.260
friends would play Legos at the house.

00:46:00.800 --> 00:46:01.300
And Emacs has this like feeling of playing

00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:04.540
Legos with a group of people across the

00:46:06.120 --> 00:46:06.620
world. In fact, 1 of my current,

00:46:09.080 --> 00:46:09.580
well, 1 of my best friends now,

00:46:14.040 --> 00:46:14.540
we met a year ago. And it turns out we both

00:46:18.460 --> 00:46:18.620
love Emacs. We talk every Thursday and we

00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:20.420
hang out and we talk poetry.

00:46:23.500 --> 00:46:24.000
We talk Tom Petty. We talk Emacs.

00:46:24.920 --> 00:46:25.420
We talk software development.

00:46:26.840 --> 00:46:27.340
He does Python. I do Ruby.

00:46:29.860 --> 00:46:30.360
Just anything and everything.

00:46:36.660 --> 00:46:36.820
And it's also we both are curious because we

00:46:38.100 --> 00:46:38.600
don't use it the same way.

00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:44.420
And we like how we accomplish a task.

00:46:47.020 --> 00:46:47.220
I think that's the fascinating part to me is

00:46:50.140 --> 00:46:50.580
we each get to explore our way to interact

00:46:54.060 --> 00:46:54.560
with the computer uniquely by whatever

00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:56.360
pathways are in our brain.

00:46:58.340 --> 00:46:58.520
We see stuff, we pick it up,

00:47:00.060 --> 00:47:00.240
and we're like, that doesn't quite work for

00:47:01.960 --> 00:47:02.460
me, or, oh, that worked really well.

00:47:06.660 --> 00:47:07.160
Fascinating, like, I don't know,

00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:08.700
shared art installation.

00:47:13.740 --> 00:47:14.020
[Speaker 3]: I think you're onto something that I also

00:47:15.460 --> 00:47:15.640
resonate with. 1 of the things that

00:47:18.820 --> 00:47:19.060
fascinates me about Emacs is all these

00:47:21.220 --> 00:47:21.720
people's configuration jobs are crystallized

00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:25.080
workflows. And it's really when you talk to

00:47:26.580 --> 00:47:27.080
them and you see how they're using it,

00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:29.540
and you understand a little bit of their

00:47:32.140 --> 00:47:32.320
story and things that they need,

00:47:33.160 --> 00:47:33.660
the ideas they've had,

00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:36.140
that's really fascinating.

00:47:37.580 --> 00:47:37.800
And I think that's 1 of the things that makes

00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:40.080
it possible to be perpetually curious about

00:47:42.660 --> 00:47:43.160
Emacs, because it's not just the,

00:47:43.820 --> 00:47:44.060
you know, this is the,

00:47:45.520 --> 00:47:45.920
these are all the Lego pieces there are,

00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:47.920
but you have this community of people who are

00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:50.820
using these Lego bricks in such fascinating

00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:53.940
ways and always inventing new things for it.

00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:56.600
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, new colors, new shapes,

00:47:59.640 --> 00:48:00.140
they show up. It's great.

00:48:03.200 --> 00:48:03.400
[Speaker 2]: It's like powered twice or something like

00:48:06.040 --> 00:48:06.220
that because it's like you can use Emacs with

00:48:09.720 --> 00:48:10.220
a thousand different customizations and then

00:48:12.340 --> 00:48:12.720
you can interact with people who can each

00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:17.040
also Use Emacs in a thousand different ways

00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:17.800
[Speaker 1]: Mm-hmm, Right,

00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:20.280
[Speaker 2]: Then you can both learn from each other and

00:48:21.720 --> 00:48:22.040
that can go a thousand different ways.

00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:24.500
So it's like, it's like powering your

00:48:25.240 --> 00:48:25.680
[Speaker 3]: Yep.

00:48:27.400 --> 00:48:27.700
[Speaker 2]: Something along those lines with each other

00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:30.920
and like how different and how much you can

00:48:31.560 --> 00:48:32.060
learn from it.

00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:38.980
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, the kind of touching back to the mentee

00:48:41.920 --> 00:48:42.380
that I have who went, he had originally

00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:44.980
started in Vim and then did VS code.

00:48:47.420 --> 00:48:47.600
And then we were talking and he was gonna go

00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:50.860
into Emacs and I didn't have a,

00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:52.360
I mean, sure, that'd be great.

00:48:53.860 --> 00:48:54.060
But he's like, I don't have a lot of time.

00:48:56.120 --> 00:48:56.620
And I'm like, well, go back to the place that

00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:58.340
you have that experience.

00:49:01.000 --> 00:49:01.280
And he did, And then he started writing Lua

00:49:02.960 --> 00:49:03.340
plugins. He was like, this is so much fun.

00:49:05.380 --> 00:49:05.880
I'm like, good, you're on the right path.

00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:11.340
Like maybe there'll be space like over time,

00:49:13.860 --> 00:49:14.360
how Lua plugins and Emacs,

00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:17.260
you know, who knows? I know that Lua,

00:49:19.040 --> 00:49:19.540
you can use Fennel to write Lisp.

00:49:24.240 --> 00:49:24.740
In you write Lisp and it will transpile

00:49:29.060 --> 00:49:29.560
Fennel to Lua. I forget how that plays out,

00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:32.080
but we're not too far away from those 2

00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:34.980
things being able to play.

00:49:39.020 --> 00:49:39.520
But I guess the question is,

00:49:41.980 --> 00:49:42.480
does it need to? I don't know.

00:49:44.540 --> 00:49:45.040
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I mean, even without direct code

00:49:47.620 --> 00:49:48.120
translation, the cross-pollination of ideas

00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:51.960
is certainly enough. I love the fact that

00:49:54.720 --> 00:49:54.840
people are borrowing ideas from VS Code and

00:49:57.840 --> 00:49:58.040
from Vim and people look at Emacs videos and

00:49:58.840 --> 00:49:59.020
other things and say, hey,

00:49:59.860 --> 00:50:00.060
that's a cool thing in Emacs,

00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:01.680
but I don't want to ever use Emacs.

00:50:03.240 --> 00:50:03.740
I'm going to do that whole thing in Vim.

00:50:04.600 --> 00:50:05.100
And I think that's fantastic.

00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:07.820
[Speaker 1]: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

00:50:10.640 --> 00:50:11.140
monocultures die. They just do.

00:50:16.840 --> 00:50:17.340
And computer software and computer industry

00:50:24.120 --> 00:50:24.280
pushes towards monoculture because of it

00:50:26.660 --> 00:50:27.160
wants the highest efficiency.

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:31.780
And I'm like, I'm not,

00:50:33.640 --> 00:50:34.140
I mean, sometimes I'm here for that,

00:50:35.600 --> 00:50:35.980
but most of the time I'm like,

00:50:37.120 --> 00:50:37.620
I want the bumps and the warts.

00:50:40.680 --> 00:50:41.180
I want the art, the human interaction,

00:50:42.720 --> 00:50:43.220
the like, why are we trying to accomplish

00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:43.860
this?

00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.620
[Speaker 2]: It determines, It depends on how you

00:50:49.640 --> 00:50:50.140
determine efficiency because Emacs is far

00:50:52.840 --> 00:50:53.240
Even if Emacs isn't multi-threaded is far

00:50:56.980 --> 00:50:57.480
more efficient because because of the mental

00:51:00.060 --> 00:51:00.220
model shifts because you're able to play and

00:51:04.440 --> 00:51:04.600
tweak with it and then have as much of a

00:51:07.160 --> 00:51:07.360
mental model shift for each task change that

00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:11.260
you want. Like, yeah, I want my file manager

00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:16.760
to not be an editable text buffer.

00:51:18.660 --> 00:51:19.120
Although sometimes when I want to rename

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:20.820
files, I want it to be that.

00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:24.300
[Speaker 1]: Right. Yeah, and really,

00:51:26.640 --> 00:51:27.040
like, to be clear, I like the idea of Emacs

00:51:29.060 --> 00:51:29.340
as a projection of, like,

00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:30.660
how I think about stuff.

00:51:33.780 --> 00:51:33.960
So it's that whatever my neurons have made a

00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:37.280
good pathway for, I can have Emacs flow with

00:51:41.660 --> 00:51:42.160
me. That efficiency side is I want a factory,

00:51:43.080 --> 00:51:43.480
I want to stamp out widgets,

00:51:44.540 --> 00:51:44.720
I want them to be the same,

00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:45.650
chop, chop, chop, chop,

00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:52.360
chop, chop. That emacs runs in its spirit

00:51:57.180 --> 00:51:57.440
along with vim contrary to that and I like

00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:57.940
that

00:52:00.530 --> 00:52:00.720
[Speaker 2]: emacs is a 1 of the things with the like the

00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:03.680
mental model of Emacs is you should look at

00:52:06.180 --> 00:52:06.660
Emacs like this is probably something that

00:52:08.100 --> 00:52:08.320
people should think about when they are

00:52:10.440 --> 00:52:10.940
introducing Emacs to other people is Emacs is

00:52:15.720 --> 00:52:15.900
a treasure trove of conflicting ways of

00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:18.580
solving the same problem so you get,

00:52:22.040 --> 00:52:22.280
so you can individuate yourself on how you

00:52:23.520 --> 00:52:24.020
actually want to solve that problem.

00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:25.600
[Speaker 3]: Do you

00:52:26.700 --> 00:52:27.200
[Speaker 2]: want Vim bindings or not?

00:52:30.200 --> 00:52:30.580
You get to choose. Or do you want Meow

00:52:31.900 --> 00:52:32.400
bindings? You can choose.

00:52:34.780 --> 00:52:35.280
[Speaker 1]: Yep. Absolutely. Yeah.

00:52:38.780 --> 00:52:39.040
I, I came, I'm, I consider my,

00:52:42.380 --> 00:52:42.660
I, I lament because in 2005 I almost picked

00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:46.240
up Emacs and it wasn't until 2020 that I

00:52:49.040 --> 00:52:49.440
picked it up. And fortunately I picked it up

00:52:54.000 --> 00:52:54.500
when I did because I was able to look at

00:52:58.020 --> 00:52:58.520
things I had previously accomplished and find

00:53:05.140 --> 00:53:05.420
analogs And things like Helm and Ivy were

00:53:08.940 --> 00:53:09.440
both 2 different ways of doing it and consult

00:53:11.600 --> 00:53:12.100
and then, or Selectrum and then consult,

00:53:15.860 --> 00:53:16.060
like they all had these different ways And it

00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:19.400
felt great because I could find the thing

00:53:24.520 --> 00:53:25.020
that worked for me. And they're close,

00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:27.840
but then they also like branch out and do

00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:30.860
things differently. And it was so fascinating

00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:35.020
to explore each of those and spend an hour or

00:53:39.100 --> 00:53:39.360
2 on a primary task in seeing where that

00:53:42.040 --> 00:53:42.540
little thread went. It's great.

00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:47.600
[Speaker 3]: So tell me a bit more about how you got into

00:53:51.040 --> 00:53:51.300
Emacs. What pulled you

00:53:55.120 --> 00:53:55.620
[Speaker 1]: in? Yeah, this is a great little moment.

00:53:59.680 --> 00:54:00.180
I started in TextMate,

00:54:03.280 --> 00:54:03.420
That's kind of where I would say the

00:54:06.460 --> 00:54:06.660
beginning for coding for open source and

00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:08.340
using open source software.

00:54:11.760 --> 00:54:11.920
Sorry, using open source frameworks and

00:54:14.540 --> 00:54:15.040
languages. So TextMate to Sublime,

00:54:18.260 --> 00:54:18.580
basically TextMate couldn't search very well

00:54:20.740 --> 00:54:21.060
at the time. It was getting bogged down.

00:54:21.640 --> 00:54:22.080
So I moved to Sublime,

00:54:23.260 --> 00:54:23.760
which solved it, felt well,

00:54:27.900 --> 00:54:28.400
carried the same UI look with me.

00:54:30.680 --> 00:54:31.180
And then when I was at a conference,

00:54:34.540 --> 00:54:34.860
there was a talk about using an open source

00:54:36.600 --> 00:54:36.880
editor. I was like, yeah,

00:54:38.720 --> 00:54:39.220
I need to do that. I really need to.

00:54:43.080 --> 00:54:43.260
And Adam was viable. I was like,

00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:44.820
Oh, this is really close.

00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:47.360
I'll use it. And I didn't think too much

00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:49.680
about it. And then the writing was on the

00:54:51.120 --> 00:54:51.620
wall, that Adam is going away.

00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:56.040
And I was like, I need to find an open source

00:54:57.100 --> 00:54:57.600
editor that speaks to me.

00:54:59.200 --> 00:54:59.440
And I said, all right,

00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:01.260
Vim, This is my fifth time.

00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:06.800
I will try. And I gave an earnest 2 weeks.

00:55:09.060 --> 00:55:09.440
And I'm just like, I cannot get this mental

00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:11.840
model in my head. So I'm like,

00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.200
all right, I set it down.

00:55:14.540 --> 00:55:15.040
I can use Vim, I'm comfortable.

00:55:15.940 --> 00:55:16.360
I think it's a great tool,

00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:19.500
but my mental model doesn't map well there.

00:55:21.040 --> 00:55:21.420
And I'm like, all right,

00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:25.280
here we go, VS code. All right,

00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:28.520
you're fine. But I feel like I might

00:55:31.340 --> 00:55:31.500
accidentally charge my credit card in the

00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:33.500
text editor on the default installation.

00:55:38.680 --> 00:55:39.180
And that was alluded to by in 1 of the talks,

00:55:46.120 --> 00:55:46.620
I forget who he German about mandating Emacs

00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:48.500
in his computer science classes.

00:55:51.020 --> 00:55:51.220
He mentioned like the Microsoft Office or

00:55:54.060 --> 00:55:54.560
Microsoft Marketplace felt like it was there.

00:55:58.860 --> 00:55:59.060
So that was 1, but the moment where I was

00:56:02.380 --> 00:56:02.880
like, oh, hell no, VS Code.

00:56:08.520 --> 00:56:08.940
Or I wanted to use a commit from the command

00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:12.780
palette, and it brought up an HTML text input

00:56:15.060 --> 00:56:15.560
area, and it was 30 characters.

00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:23.500
And in that moment, I saw several things.

00:56:27.040 --> 00:56:27.140
1, I'm like, no, that's terrible because I

00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:28.600
want to write something meaningful.

00:56:33.640 --> 00:56:33.900
2, this is the behavior that this tool is

00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:39.240
modeling. That tells me that history and like

00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:41.820
how it is built is not important.

00:56:47.160 --> 00:56:47.320
And yes, I can fix it and get around it.

00:56:49.240 --> 00:56:49.740
And I kind of did. And I was like,

00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:51.860
the principles are just,

00:56:53.680 --> 00:56:54.180
they're there. And then also understanding

00:56:56.100 --> 00:56:56.600
like there's a bunch of telemetry underneath

00:56:58.860 --> 00:56:59.360
it. So I used VS Codium,

00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:00.740
there's still telemetry.

00:57:03.340 --> 00:57:03.840
And I was like, all right,

00:57:07.380 --> 00:57:07.880
2005 Jeremy, let's go try Emacs,

00:57:08.940 --> 00:57:09.440
let's see if we can do it.

00:57:13.860 --> 00:57:14.360
And I hopped in, I grabbed Space Max.

00:57:16.640 --> 00:57:17.020
I was Like, yeah, this works pretty well.

00:57:18.740 --> 00:57:18.960
Like, I don't know how to use the keys very

00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:21.380
well. I'm figuring it out.

00:57:26.040 --> 00:57:26.400
And. And I was like, you know what?

00:57:27.340 --> 00:57:27.840
Why don't I do the tutorial?

00:57:30.860 --> 00:57:31.360
And it was the tutorial that hooked me.

00:57:36.820 --> 00:57:37.320
Not because everything made 100% sense

00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:42.620
because Emacs is old. It had a lot of

00:57:45.420 --> 00:57:45.920
language that was hard to internalize,

00:57:50.500 --> 00:57:50.740
but it presented it in a conversational I'm

00:57:52.360 --> 00:57:52.600
gonna meet you where you're at and we're

00:57:53.440 --> 00:57:53.940
gonna walk with it together.

00:57:56.480 --> 00:57:56.980
And then when I was done with the tutorial,

00:57:58.420 --> 00:57:58.740
I said, you know, Space Max,

00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:00.060
I don't understand it.

00:58:00.920 --> 00:58:01.420
And it's got some performance.

00:58:04.180 --> 00:58:04.300
It looks like there's like extra stuff that I

00:58:08.420 --> 00:58:08.920
may not need. So I went vanilla,

00:58:11.780 --> 00:58:12.280
nothing Emacs and just started working.

00:58:14.060 --> 00:58:14.560
I was like, well, how do you do this?

00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:17.460
[Speaker 2]: Although 5 minutes of Space Max or any of

00:58:19.600 --> 00:58:20.100
those Emacs distribution shows you

00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:22.860
unequivocally how different it can be.

00:58:25.880 --> 00:58:26.380
[Speaker 1]: It was, it was, it was so amazing,

00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:32.100
and it was so good. But I knew my nature was,

00:58:34.780 --> 00:58:35.140
I was frustrated in, like I wrote an Atom

00:58:37.780 --> 00:58:38.280
package, and that was awful.

00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:43.360
It was so terrible. But I knew what I wanted.

00:58:48.280 --> 00:58:48.480
And then I wrote, I started writing a VS code

00:58:49.640 --> 00:58:49.840
and I'm like, oh no, no,

00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:51.300
no, we're not here for this.

00:58:55.520 --> 00:58:55.800
And so, yeah, SpaceMax showed me like this

00:59:00.600 --> 00:59:00.760
can look and feel like a space that I used to

00:59:03.920 --> 00:59:04.420
be in. And then it has more functionality,

00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:07.940
more stuff. It's gonna be great.

00:59:09.960 --> 00:59:10.380
And then I just was like,

00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:12.380
I'm gonna go find my own.

00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:16.200
I'm really happy that I took the path because

00:59:19.300 --> 00:59:19.640
I just worked, wrote, and I'm like,

00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.380
I bet you this, I bet you the tool,

00:59:22.540 --> 00:59:22.960
I know it can do this because it,

00:59:24.620 --> 00:59:25.120
you know, text me, did this or Adam,

00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:28.300
I'm gonna go, I went on to Melpa and I found

00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:29.940
a couple different things.

00:59:31.120 --> 00:59:31.440
I'm like, all right, let's try them.

00:59:32.320 --> 00:59:32.640
I'm like, that's the 1,

00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:34.980
great. Roll it in, keep working.

00:59:36.000 --> 00:59:36.500
I know it can do this.

00:59:39.800 --> 00:59:40.160
Find a package. And so I built up this sense

00:59:46.060 --> 00:59:46.160
of the packages and my strategy was go to

00:59:49.680 --> 00:59:49.940
Melpa, look at, that was the 1 that showed

00:59:52.540 --> 00:59:53.040
up, look at the number of downloads.

00:59:54.520 --> 00:59:54.960
So I'm like, what's the high stuff?

00:59:55.900 --> 00:59:56.400
What really gets used?

00:59:57.680 --> 00:59:58.180
There's something there.

01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:00.760
And then also look at what was most recently

01:00:03.420 --> 01:00:03.580
updated. So kind of pivot on those along with

01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:07.260
a keyword search and I found the tools that

01:00:17.780 --> 01:00:18.100
worked well. But it really came down to like

01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:20.460
that VS Code I was almost in,

01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:24.640
but I've been around long enough to know what

01:00:25.560 --> 01:00:26.060
Microsoft will do.

01:00:32.240 --> 01:00:32.540
[Speaker 2]: For me, I was always like customizing things.

01:00:34.600 --> 01:00:35.100
I think I saw some interesting emacs videos.

01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:42.720
I wanted to try Well, I wanted to try working

01:00:44.500 --> 01:00:44.720
more with the keyboard and not need I think

01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:47.300
[Speaker 1]: mm-hmm

01:00:51.180 --> 01:00:51.680
[Speaker 2]: the mouse on a laptop And so I was looking

01:00:54.380 --> 01:00:54.520
explicitly for ways to just work on the

01:00:56.920 --> 01:00:57.400
keyboard only, which meant that I wasn't

01:00:59.060 --> 01:00:59.560
looking for programs that followed Cua,

01:01:04.400 --> 01:01:04.900
which really leaves you like 2 options,

01:01:10.960 --> 01:01:11.380
Vim and Emacs. And when I looked at the 2,

01:01:13.940 --> 01:01:14.100
I saw 1 of the big differentiating factors I

01:01:15.660 --> 01:01:16.020
saw was Tramp, which was,

01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:18.600
oh, you mean I get a SSH into a machine and

01:01:19.840 --> 01:01:20.340
have my customizations too?

01:01:22.740 --> 01:01:23.240
[Speaker 1]: Yep. Yeah.

01:01:29.140 --> 01:01:29.540
[Speaker 2]: And then I started using Emacs more and more.

01:01:34.440 --> 01:01:34.860
Eventually I combined that with a tiling

01:01:36.400 --> 01:01:36.900
window manager, NixOS,

01:01:40.840 --> 01:01:41.040
and started banishing as much of the GUI as I

01:01:44.060 --> 01:01:44.560
possibly could, running MPV or VLC,

01:01:49.180 --> 01:01:49.400
so I could edit so that my config files could

01:01:53.720 --> 01:01:54.020
be keyboard oriented. My settings config

01:01:55.920 --> 01:01:56.420
menus are now keyboard oriented.

01:02:00.860 --> 01:02:01.080
And yeah, that was the incremental process of

01:02:04.400 --> 01:02:04.900
just, yeah, making the computer nicer,

01:02:06.680 --> 01:02:06.860
more efficient, and then you figure out all

01:02:08.080 --> 01:02:08.580
the other advantages of the...

01:02:13.440 --> 01:02:13.780
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. How did you get in to it,

01:02:18.940 --> 01:02:19.440
[Speaker 2]: Oh, you're lost.

01:02:21.840 --> 01:02:22.340
[Speaker 1]: Sasha? Your sound is gone.

01:02:27.345 --> 01:02:27.845
[Speaker 3]: Sorry, my face mute button.

01:02:29.600 --> 01:02:29.800
Okay, I'll tell you that story,

01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:31.080
I get thought out of my head,

01:02:32.780 --> 01:02:33.240
so I forget it. But what you described,

01:02:34.900 --> 01:02:35.080
Jerry, about kind of starting with the

01:02:37.340 --> 01:02:37.540
distribution and then pulling back and

01:02:39.140 --> 01:02:39.520
starting with vanilla and building up,

01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:41.320
kind of close the stories that I've heard

01:02:42.980 --> 01:02:43.480
from a lot of people in the community where

01:02:46.600 --> 01:02:46.800
the distribution gives them kind of an end

01:02:48.140 --> 01:02:48.640
goal, at least work requirements,

01:02:50.280 --> 01:02:50.600
So get the stuff done and they're not

01:02:52.260 --> 01:02:52.760
slugging through the weeds around the start.

01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:55.760
I have a hard time modifying it because

01:02:57.440 --> 01:02:57.720
modifying the distribution itself is very

01:02:59.140 --> 01:02:59.640
different from the tools they see.

01:03:01.520 --> 01:03:01.740
They feel like they want to understand the

01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:02.820
different possible part.

01:03:04.240 --> 01:03:04.540
And so then they pull back and say,

01:03:06.300 --> 01:03:06.800
okay, I've got this thing that can use

01:03:08.360 --> 01:03:08.680
everything to just get some quick work done,

01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:10.760
but I have this thing that I can call,

01:03:13.500 --> 01:03:13.680
that's mine. And I understand because I'm

01:03:15.960 --> 01:03:16.460
building it up from the ground up.

01:03:19.540 --> 01:03:19.640
Okay, so that's like, oh,

01:03:21.500 --> 01:03:21.660
interesting, there's a lot of people who are

01:03:23.940 --> 01:03:24.280
like that, and it really helps them to both

01:03:27.240 --> 01:03:27.620
have that insight, which is see through

01:03:29.540 --> 01:03:29.780
distributions and also videos of other

01:03:32.060 --> 01:03:32.220
people's workflows and press kind of

01:03:34.080 --> 01:03:34.500
conference presentations often about

01:03:35.140 --> 01:03:35.540
completely different topics,

01:03:37.540 --> 01:03:37.700
right? So someone whizzing through Ruby on

01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:40.420
Rails or whatever else and doing all of this.

01:03:43.580 --> 01:03:44.040
But also having 1 help them break out,

01:03:46.560 --> 01:03:46.760
okay, well, there's a lot of work from where

01:03:47.900 --> 01:03:48.160
I am to where that is.

01:03:49.740 --> 01:03:50.240
How do I do it without being overwhelmed?

01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:52.960
Because if they try to learn everything,

01:03:55.520 --> 01:03:55.760
they'll go crazy. And then they'll fall.

01:03:57.500 --> 01:03:58.000
And the brain is super important.

01:04:01.500 --> 01:04:01.860
And how I got into this whole eMac thing was

01:04:03.520 --> 01:04:03.780
I was reading all the computer science books

01:04:06.180 --> 01:04:06.480
in the university library and 1 of the Unix

01:04:09.160 --> 01:04:09.360
power tools had a chapter on Emacs and had

01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:11.320
them you know well there's another type of

01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:14.760
whatever. Okay that's interesting so I went

01:04:17.080 --> 01:04:17.320
and tried it out But the reason I really got

01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:19.780
into it was because I was using John Wigley's

01:04:23.520 --> 01:04:23.760
Planner Mode. This was before Org Mode came

01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:25.600
about. So Planner Mode was a link.

01:04:27.040 --> 01:04:27.540
I said, hey, this is great.

01:04:29.380 --> 01:04:29.880
I'm looking for ways to help out.

01:04:31.560 --> 01:04:32.060
If you need help verifying any bugs,

01:04:34.160 --> 01:04:34.660
you know, send it to me and I'll do the

01:04:37.540 --> 01:04:37.840
figuring out. He's an author and an inventor.

01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:38.100
[Speaker 2]: And then

01:04:39.480 --> 01:04:39.980
[Speaker 3]: he made me the miniature for it.

01:04:42.720 --> 01:04:42.880
So I'm like, okay. And then that's how I got

01:04:44.680 --> 01:04:45.140
to know this wonderful community of people

01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:47.340
who customize emacs so much.

01:04:51.680 --> 01:04:52.180
And it just goes there because really,

01:04:54.100 --> 01:04:54.240
when you see all these different ways that

01:04:55.860 --> 01:04:56.360
people use in all these different stories

01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:00.480
that you get send off because they're using

01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:04.460
it to bake sourdough bread and do knitting

01:05:06.700 --> 01:05:06.880
and all the crazy things that people come up

01:05:08.900 --> 01:05:09.400
with. I've been using it as an audio editor.

01:05:11.000 --> 01:05:11.500
It's just weird. It's just fun.

01:05:13.100 --> 01:05:13.600
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's great.

01:05:19.640 --> 01:05:20.020
[Speaker 2]: Yeah. Every, Sasha, like 2 things that I was

01:05:22.900 --> 01:05:23.040
meaning to say is every time I see the on the

01:05:26.140 --> 01:05:26.580
EMAX conference the time that the scratch

01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:30.400
buffer with the big clock that is ticking

01:05:34.980 --> 01:05:35.480
down as and the multi multiple sized fonts As

01:05:37.720 --> 01:05:37.900
I always think wow, that's really cool.

01:05:38.980 --> 01:05:39.280
I didn't know Emacs could do that.

01:05:40.440 --> 01:05:40.940
Wait, no, I saw that last year.

01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:44.060
How do you do, now, how do I do that?

01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:45.480
Cause that's not, and that's not something I

01:05:46.920 --> 01:05:47.420
normally even think about Emacs doing.

01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:48.580
[Speaker 1]: Right.

01:05:51.220 --> 01:05:51.720
[Speaker 2]: I'll think about putting

01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:56.260
[Speaker 3]: There's an EmacsConf-stream.el

01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:00.260
in the EmacsConf-el repository.

01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:04.160
Grab the link and open but you can grab the

01:06:07.940 --> 01:06:08.260
code from there. It's basically the text

01:06:08.260 --> 01:06:08.760
property.

01:06:15.020 --> 01:06:15.480
[Speaker 2]: But it's a thought that has repeated multiple

01:06:17.140 --> 01:06:17.460
years. Like, I didn't know we could do that

01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:18.720
way. I thought about that.

01:06:21.260 --> 01:06:21.600
I had this exact thought last year when I saw

01:06:21.600 --> 01:06:22.100
it.

01:06:28.260 --> 01:06:28.480
[Speaker 1]: It's, we're like, I'm at the point where it's

01:06:31.220 --> 01:06:31.620
like I have memories of remembering doing

01:06:34.540 --> 01:06:35.040
something. I don't have memories of doing it.

01:06:36.680 --> 01:06:37.180
Like all of the things.

01:06:40.560 --> 01:06:41.060
Like so it's again, we,

01:06:45.240 --> 01:06:45.740
Emacs helps expose like the,

01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:49.140
like it's, anything's possible.

01:06:53.300 --> 01:06:53.560
And we see how it becomes possible through

01:06:55.640 --> 01:06:56.120
other people. And then it gets our brains

01:06:57.780 --> 01:06:58.140
thinking about other ways of doing stuff.

01:06:59.920 --> 01:07:00.420
And I think that's the exciting part.

01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:02.860
Dog who wants to go play Frisbee.

01:07:07.900 --> 01:07:08.080
[Speaker 3]: And that's actually 1 of the reasons why I

01:07:11.060 --> 01:07:11.320
want to encourage people to not only talk

01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:12.980
about Emacs and write Emacs blog posts,

01:07:15.380 --> 01:07:15.520
but also actually demonstrate Emacs in the

01:07:16.560 --> 01:07:17.060
sense of doing something else.

01:07:20.220 --> 01:07:20.720
So for example, we can match people at Emacs

01:07:23.560 --> 01:07:24.000
if you're presenting about Ruby on Rails and

01:07:27.040 --> 01:07:27.440
you're doing all of your and education and

01:07:30.240 --> 01:07:30.480
things while you're presenting Rails,

01:07:32.900 --> 01:07:33.400
you reach all these people who are interested

01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:34.780
in Rails, developer Rails,

01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:36.760
but might not have even considered Emacs.

01:07:41.920 --> 01:07:42.420
And here, you know, you probably would.

01:07:44.860 --> 01:07:45.060
I would probably have a hard time writing an

01:07:47.040 --> 01:07:47.540
entire talk about adding text properties,

01:07:49.540 --> 01:07:49.760
but the fact that there's a thing here that

01:07:50.800 --> 01:07:51.300
shows, hey, this is possible,

01:07:53.000 --> 01:07:53.300
Emacs can get people to think,

01:07:54.880 --> 01:07:55.380
okay, so how do I get from here to there?

01:07:57.440 --> 01:07:57.940
Just showing the possible.

01:08:02.120 --> 01:08:02.360
Yeah. Which source code is in the,

01:08:02.360 --> 01:08:02.860
whatchamacallit.

01:08:04.600 --> 01:08:05.100
[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah. Yeah, I just saw that.

01:08:08.240 --> 01:08:08.740
[Speaker 2]: There's a weird interesting thing how Emacs

01:08:12.540 --> 01:08:12.720
dovetails with people who are interested in

01:08:15.940 --> 01:08:16.439
making their own local first Zettelkasten,

01:08:17.720 --> 01:08:18.220
because look at how many Zettelkasten

01:08:21.300 --> 01:08:21.600
packages you have. Especially with how much,

01:08:23.800 --> 01:08:24.100
like it feels like, it seems like Emacs has

01:08:27.439 --> 01:08:27.939
more than Vim, but Vim is bigger or VS,

01:08:30.140 --> 01:08:30.420
feels like it has more than Vim or VS Code,

01:08:31.920 --> 01:08:32.319
and VS Code's bigger. I'm not sure,

01:08:36.819 --> 01:08:37.319
but it feels like it. Same thing with that

01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:40.420
HyperCore. That HyperCore felt more like a

01:08:42.540 --> 01:08:43.040
local first peer-to-peer system.

01:08:48.240 --> 01:08:48.640
So there's a weird dovetail where they want

01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:52.779
the knowledge bases that are local first,

01:08:58.260 --> 01:08:58.359
comprehensive, because 1 of the properties of

01:09:03.500 --> 01:09:03.740
the Zettelkasten or Org Mode agendas is that

01:09:07.359 --> 01:09:07.819
it's all your notes in 1 place.

01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:14.760
It's not, you know, your notes in either pad

01:09:19.540 --> 01:09:20.040
and your notes in Google Calendar,

01:09:23.180 --> 01:09:23.680
your notes in 20 different places,

01:09:24.520 --> 01:09:25.020
your notes in Evernote.

01:09:28.700 --> 01:09:29.060
It's your notes in 1 program in 1 place

01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:31.080
because you have to deal with them And

01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:32.800
they're going to be in files on your hard

01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:34.779
drive, and you're going to have packages

01:09:37.080 --> 01:09:37.359
there. That's the other weird thing too,

01:09:40.240 --> 01:09:40.600
is how many, like, you install an Emacs

01:09:41.399 --> 01:09:41.899
package, 1 of the guarantees,

01:09:43.439 --> 01:09:43.640
some of the guarantees you seem to get with

01:09:46.260 --> 01:09:46.680
it is if it does use an external program,

01:09:48.399 --> 01:09:48.580
it's going to have a lot of configuration in

01:09:51.020 --> 01:09:51.520
Emacs. It's going to be installed.

01:09:53.760 --> 01:09:54.260
It's going to be local first.

01:09:56.780 --> 01:09:57.100
Cause like you have flow bits,

01:09:59.340 --> 01:09:59.840
but how many programs like are,

01:10:05.140 --> 01:10:05.280
are cloud first. And it feels like most of

01:10:06.820 --> 01:10:07.320
those are like org Trello,

01:10:10.160 --> 01:10:10.520
where it's like, I want to use org mode,

01:10:12.040 --> 01:10:12.540
but other people use Trello.

01:10:15.460 --> 01:10:15.780
So I'm going to be grudgingly using this org

01:10:17.400 --> 01:10:17.660
Trello to be a bridge between the 2,

01:10:19.200 --> 01:10:19.640
not because I wanted to use org,

01:10:21.240 --> 01:10:21.360
not because I wanted to use Trello in the

01:10:23.200 --> 01:10:23.320
first place or I started off with Trello and

01:10:24.280 --> 01:10:24.780
now I wanna use org mode.

01:10:27.680 --> 01:10:28.180
[Speaker 1]: Right, no, you're that local first.

01:10:37.020 --> 01:10:37.400
The Thought I have is with the 2022 interest

01:10:43.080 --> 01:10:43.580
rates going up, the era of free money,

01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:47.020
or even like getting money for more,

01:10:49.960 --> 01:10:50.180
more money than it actually costs Like it was

01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:56.100
minting money. We are going to be seeing how

01:10:59.440 --> 01:10:59.940
these organizations that had financial

01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:02.340
runways, all of these cloud services,

01:11:06.760 --> 01:11:07.020
what's not gonna last because there's no

01:11:12.440 --> 01:11:12.880
funding. And like the durability of our local

01:11:16.400 --> 01:11:16.900
first plain text, free open source stuff.

01:11:21.320 --> 01:11:21.820
Like I won't have to do a content migration

01:11:24.320 --> 01:11:24.740
unless I get a B of my bonnet and want to

01:11:27.700 --> 01:11:27.880
like change from org mode to markdown for

01:11:30.660 --> 01:11:30.920
some reason. Like I have it and Then I can

01:11:32.980 --> 01:11:33.480
send it out. So there's also like that posse

01:11:36.400 --> 01:11:36.900
principle publish on-site syndicate

01:11:41.660 --> 01:11:41.820
everywhere Is what emacs and vim like they

01:11:42.780 --> 01:11:43.280
allow for us to do?

01:11:46.440 --> 01:11:46.620
[Speaker 2]: Well, that's part of the individuation is you

01:11:48.900 --> 01:11:49.080
have multiple options of doing something so

01:11:51.580 --> 01:11:51.820
you can choose something so you can take

01:11:54.360 --> 01:11:54.860
ownership of your data in the way you want.

01:12:00.220 --> 01:12:00.380
It all dovetails into each other and I think

01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:03.260
that's something worth thinking about,

01:12:05.540 --> 01:12:05.800
especially in relation with who should learn

01:12:08.040 --> 01:12:08.440
and how should you introduce Emacs to people,

01:12:14.180 --> 01:12:14.420
because like, with the idea of people should

01:12:16.560 --> 01:12:16.800
try an Emacs distribution and then start

01:12:17.240 --> 01:12:17.740
their own from scratch,

01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:19.120
just so that they, like,

01:12:20.280 --> 01:12:20.640
if you use it for 10 minutes,

01:12:24.400 --> 01:12:24.820
you'll gain so much because you use your 3

01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:26.260
and then all of a sudden you realize,

01:12:29.180 --> 01:12:29.440
you also know how malleable Emacs can be.

01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:30.960
And then you start saying,

01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:32.160
now, how do I do that?

01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:33.740
So I get to make those choices?

01:12:34.840 --> 01:12:35.340
[Speaker 1]: Yeah.

01:12:39.340 --> 01:12:39.520
[Speaker 2]: Or you might say, this person did it well

01:12:40.320 --> 01:12:40.820
enough, I don't have to.

01:12:43.500 --> 01:12:43.900
[Speaker 3]: That reminded me of something that I also

01:12:45.360 --> 01:12:45.860
wanted to mention, shocking word,

01:12:49.040 --> 01:12:49.280
as in malleability. Another tip I came

01:12:50.600 --> 01:12:50.900
across, don't know from whom,

01:12:51.500 --> 01:12:51.700
might have been from you,

01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:53.940
I don't know, is to define aliases,

01:12:56.320 --> 01:12:56.460
because we use different words from what the

01:12:58.680 --> 01:12:59.180
functions are. It's 1 of those little meta

01:13:00.420 --> 01:13:00.720
things that, you know,

01:13:02.080 --> 01:13:02.580
If you keep calling it something else,

01:13:05.900 --> 01:13:06.020
just define it so that you can call it like

01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:07.260
commencing your words.

01:13:12.440 --> 01:13:12.740
[Speaker 1]: it's interesting. Anyway,

01:13:14.020 --> 01:13:14.240
[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Yeah, gotta go disappear and get ready

01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:17.360
for my dog. Okay, I'll listen to what you

01:13:18.120 --> 01:13:18.280
say. All right, I

01:13:20.020 --> 01:13:20.520
[Speaker 1]: I need to take my dogs out and play Frisbee.

01:13:21.780 --> 01:13:22.280
They have been so patient.

01:13:26.040 --> 01:13:26.200
So it was great talking with all of you and

01:13:29.640 --> 01:13:30.040
Sasha, thanks for the organizing energy

01:13:31.680 --> 01:13:32.120
you've put into this. Plasma Strike,

01:13:32.800 --> 01:13:33.300
thank you for your presentation.

01:13:34.860 --> 01:13:35.360
I love this conference.

01:13:36.660 --> 01:13:37.160
So thank you very much.

01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:42.260
And now have a good rest of your Sunday.

01:13:43.100 --> 01:13:43.600
Bye.