path: root/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-workflows--org-workflows-for-developers--george-mauer--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.760
 Okay, hi everyone. Yeah, sorry George, I'm just going to

00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:06.520
 introduce you a little bit.

00:00:06.520 --> 00:00:10.500
 For context, generally when I arrive on a BBB room, I have

00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:11.880
 a little bit of time to chat

00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:14.810
 with the speaker, but right now I made it right on time and

00:00:14.810 --> 00:00:16.040
 I barely had time to say

00:00:16.040 --> 00:00:19.190
 hi to George, but I will do it live. Hi George, how are you

00:00:19.190 --> 00:00:19.720
 doing?

00:00:19.720 --> 00:00:26.330
 Hello! No, doing well. I do think some of the content in

00:00:26.330 --> 00:00:28.520
 the etherpad got overridden.

00:00:28.520 --> 00:00:33.520
 Like I was typing out a whole bunch of different stuff with

00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.320
 other workflows to develop, but

00:00:36.320 --> 00:00:40.330
 I will try to find where that went. Yeah, so George,

00:00:40.330 --> 00:00:41.640
 nothing is lost. Don't worry

00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:47.260
 about this, we will get it back to you. I believe it's my

00:00:47.260 --> 00:00:49.760
 fault. I looked at the pad

00:00:49.760 --> 00:00:51.920
 and I said, "Oh, this is not a question, this is a pad."

00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:53.800
 And I think one of my Helvan

00:00:53.800 --> 00:00:56.060
 helps in the background said, "Oh yeah, I'm just going to

00:00:56.060 --> 00:00:57.400
 wipe this all out." But don't

00:00:57.400 --> 00:01:00.360
 worry, it's still in the history and we'll be able to find

00:01:00.360 --> 00:01:01.600
 all the code you had.

00:01:01.600 --> 00:01:07.310
 Cool, we'll find it. Yeah, so... So George, I'm just going

00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:08.240
 to... Sorry, this

00:01:08.240 --> 00:01:11.940
 is my task, to give you some context otherwise. Do you have

00:01:11.940 --> 00:01:13.840
 the pad open in front of you?

00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:18.030
 I do, yeah. I have the pad open. Would you be able to take

00:01:18.030 --> 00:01:19.000
 questions from there?

00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:23.630
 Yeah, so we can take questions from here. I think we've

00:01:23.630 --> 00:01:26.240
 already answered a bunch. So

00:01:26.240 --> 00:01:30.060
 one of the ones that's in there right now is, "Does it

00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:32.720
 become unwieldy due to the indirection

00:01:32.720 --> 00:01:36.000
 of the edit org source to use org mode and the virtual

00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:37.880
 linear programming as the project

00:01:37.880 --> 00:01:44.250
 becomes larger?" It can. So I generally use it for... I

00:01:44.250 --> 00:01:47.160
 find parts of the project that

00:01:47.160 --> 00:01:53.390
 are more useful for it and to be dropping in. So like on a

00:01:53.390 --> 00:01:56.400
 large project, when I'm working

00:01:56.400 --> 00:02:01.200
 with other people, I do not use it as much because you need

00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.680
 to actually be able to modify

00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:08.480
 the code. However, I just recently found out about a

00:02:08.480 --> 00:02:11.160
 feature called detangle, which is

00:02:11.160 --> 00:02:15.060
 the inverse of the tangle where as long as there's certain

00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:17.120
 tokens emitted into your file,

00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:20.110
 you'll be able to take the file and re-update back into the

00:02:20.110 --> 00:02:21.960
 linear programming document,

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 which is kind of mind-blowing as a feature. I have not had

00:02:24.840 --> 00:02:26.280
 a chance to experiment with

00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:34.170
 it yet though, and I think that could work really, really

00:02:34.170 --> 00:02:35.920
 well. Thanks for restoring

00:02:35.920 --> 00:02:41.090
 the stuff I was putting in. "I want to take a look at the

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 files used in your demo. Are

00:02:42.880 --> 00:02:47.420
 they somewhere online?" So I dropped the stuff I used for

00:02:47.420 --> 00:02:51.720
 the Arduino stuff. Now, caveat

00:02:51.720 --> 00:02:55.220
 with that, I was figuring out the workflows as I did it. So

00:02:55.220 --> 00:02:57.320
 there's like a readme of...

00:02:57.320 --> 00:03:02.110
 I was both figuring out Arduino and workflows. So the

00:03:02.110 --> 00:03:05.400
 initial readme has a bunch of projects

00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.270
 as I kind of did them one by one. So the workflow becomes

00:03:08.270 --> 00:03:10.240
 more mature the further down the list

00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:16.080
 you are. The ones earlier on are just copy-pasting a lot.

00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.600
 Do we have any other questions? This

00:03:21.600 --> 00:03:25.590
 is not the same shirt. You noticed. Also, the room's been

00:03:25.590 --> 00:03:27.440
 rearranged because my wife

00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:30.640
 made me move everything.

00:03:30.640 --> 00:03:33.350
 That's fine. Don't worry about it. It looks fine in the

00:03:33.350 --> 00:03:35.000
 background. I was implying that

00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:37.290
 you know the seven mistake game, trying to see what changed

00:03:37.290 --> 00:03:38.360
 in the background. I was

00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:40.330
 very interested though in some of the stuff that I was

00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:41.720
 seeing, including this dinner in

00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:42.720
 the background.

00:03:42.720 --> 00:03:50.080
 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There. It's my five-

00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:54.560
year-old's birthday party in

00:03:54.560 --> 00:04:00.030
 the summer. And it's been far more useful as a video

00:04:00.030 --> 00:04:03.680
 background than a bunch of five-year-olds

00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:04.680
 were impressed with it.

00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:08.350
 Yeah. Sorry. I do have to... It begs a question though,

00:04:08.350 --> 00:04:10.760
 which is it's a fairly large structure

00:04:10.760 --> 00:04:14.080
 to be made by a five-year-old. Like it is several five-

00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:15.240
years-old tall.

00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:19.950
 Yeah. Well, the idea was I wanted them to be able to fit

00:04:19.950 --> 00:04:23.160
 them. But it didn't quite work.

00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:25.370
 Yeah. It definitely feels like the mouth would be able to

00:04:25.370 --> 00:04:26.680
 fit a five-year-old. Yeah. So I

00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:28.730
 think we're good. We might want to get back on track. Sorry

00:04:28.730 --> 00:04:29.400
 for getting distracted by

00:04:29.400 --> 00:04:32.680
 this menacing presence in the background.

00:04:32.680 --> 00:04:36.090
 I had not heard of org-transclusion. I should look into

00:04:36.090 --> 00:04:41.400
 this. I'm waiting for the next one

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 to get typed up. I'll post a couple more things that...

00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:54.960
 Here. Into the chat. So a couple...

00:04:54.960 --> 00:05:00.430
 I mentioned in the chat that first of all, that org-entry-

00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:03.480
get thing to be able to...

00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:07.660
 So you could put properties into... You could put variables

00:05:07.660 --> 00:05:09.480
 into properties on your org

00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:13.200
 outline and then have them be referenced is really, really,

00:05:13.200 --> 00:05:15.600
 really powerful. Because especially

00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.470
 because you can call into blocks from other parts of the

00:05:19.470 --> 00:05:22.400
 outline. You can basically...

00:05:22.400 --> 00:05:25.050
 You know how... I don't know if anyone here does React. But

00:05:25.050 --> 00:05:26.360
 there's something that's very

00:05:26.360 --> 00:05:29.640
 powerful that happens because you could do... You kind of

00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:31.240
 have dynamic scoping over the

00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.940
 DOM tree. And you get a similar type of power that you get

00:05:35.940 --> 00:05:38.760
 with React contexts in org mode.

00:05:38.760 --> 00:05:41.540
 Because you have variables that you could set depending on

00:05:41.540 --> 00:05:42.800
 what's the closest point

00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:48.570
 in the outline tree is. And then have defaults cascade

00:05:48.570 --> 00:05:49.640
 upwards.

00:05:49.640 --> 00:05:57.160
 Let's see. Are workflows as they are in your life closely

00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:01.400
 tied to particular projects?

00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:05.600
 Or are they general workflows? So I think there's general

00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:09.040
 ones. Like repository source

00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.820
 code analysis that I've gone to and used over and over

00:06:12.820 --> 00:06:16.120
 again. So I mentioned down below

00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:24.200
 Codemod and JORS. That's a pretty common trick I use to...

00:06:24.200 --> 00:06:25.480
 Like just when I sit down with

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 a project to analyze its history. Make a movie of how it

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 plays out. And a lot of that is

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 very... It's easiest to orchestrate in org. So here

00:06:35.820 --> 00:06:39.640
 actually I'll drop... I'll drop one

00:06:39.640 --> 00:06:44.560
 right at the top of the other cool workflows. Here's an

00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:48.840
 example of something I did... I

00:06:48.840 --> 00:06:54.080
 don't want that to... We'll figure out how to make that not

00:06:54.080 --> 00:06:57.240
 be... There we go.

00:06:57.240 --> 00:07:02.870
 So here's an example I did where it was like... I'll clean

00:07:02.870 --> 00:07:05.880
 that up a little bit. But where

00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:13.400
 you basically are using org. Within org you use Codemod.

00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:14.320
 Here's the thing. This stuff

00:07:14.320 --> 00:07:18.050
 is hard to do if you can't just write about it and say this

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 is what I'm trying to do.

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 And talk about it in prose. Because you're doing things

00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:24.600
 like analysis and you have to

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 have it all ready in front of mind. And if you don't have

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 that... And if you have...

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 You just have an empty document. You can type into whatever

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. You can type what you're trying

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 to do. And then figure out how to do it in terms of these

00:07:39.690 --> 00:07:40.520
 blocks.

00:07:40.520 --> 00:07:43.970
 So for example, this is pretty generic and something I end

00:07:43.970 --> 00:07:45.600
 up going to a lot. Where you

00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:49.520
 use something like Codemod to basically run analysis on

00:07:49.520 --> 00:07:52.480
 like... Well, what sort of stuff

00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.590
 does... Or I guess that first one's not even Codemod. That

00:07:55.590 --> 00:07:58.320
 first one's just Git log analysis.

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 What sort of stuff has a person done? What files have they

00:08:02.730 --> 00:08:04.200
 touched? And then like...

00:08:04.200 --> 00:08:06.380
 Okay. I don't want to see the full list of the files. I

00:08:06.380 --> 00:08:07.640
 just want to get an idea of what

00:08:07.640 --> 00:08:12.750
 areas they've worked. So really take the first few director

00:08:12.750 --> 00:08:14.640
ies of there. And just emit that

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 out to the screen. And now I can kind of go by each author

00:08:18.770 --> 00:08:20.240
 and figure that out. And then

00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.220
 the next example is me using the Codemod project to do

00:08:24.220 --> 00:08:28.720
 something like... Well, what's... Let's

00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:32.070
 look at coupling. So whenever one file within this project

00:08:32.070 --> 00:08:33.200
 changes, what other files are

00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:36.090
 likely to change? Oh, and I don't care about test files.

00:08:36.090 --> 00:08:37.760
 And I don't care about doc files.

00:08:37.760 --> 00:08:40.440
 And I don't care about package log or whatever. And then

00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:42.680
 again, you get that analysis. It's

00:08:42.680 --> 00:08:43.680
 very useful.

00:08:43.680 --> 00:08:46.190
 - Sorry, George. Interjecting real quickly to say two

00:08:46.190 --> 00:08:47.880
 things. First, we have opened the

00:08:47.880 --> 00:08:51.260
 Q&A if you want to join and ask questions to George or...

00:08:51.260 --> 00:08:52.560
 Just like I'm doing right

00:08:52.560 --> 00:08:55.810
 now. And also, George, I am a little lost. You are the

00:08:55.810 --> 00:08:57.880
 green collar on the bad, right?

00:08:57.880 --> 00:09:04.240
 - I am the what? Oh, I am now the... Yes, I am the green

00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:05.480
 collar.

00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:07.200
 - Okay. So I've lost...

00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.000
 - No, you're the green collar. I am now... Goodness.

00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.770
 - Okay. Can you tell me at which time you were? Because I

00:09:13.770 --> 00:09:15.120
 was a little lost in the bad

00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:16.520
 on what you were commenting on right now.

00:09:16.520 --> 00:09:19.600
 - Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was... I'm purple collar now

00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:20.920
. So that first block under

00:09:20.920 --> 00:09:24.000
 other cool workflows is what I just put in there.

00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.280
 - Okay. Cool. It is on screen now.

00:09:26.280 --> 00:09:29.480
 - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's a question, possibly

00:09:29.480 --> 00:09:31.320
 weak understanding here, but why

00:09:31.320 --> 00:09:36.930
 direct use of Tangle versus Org Babel? So take something

00:09:36.930 --> 00:09:40.160
 like Arduino CLI. That is running

00:09:40.160 --> 00:09:44.810
 at the file system level. Well, okay, no. Arduino CLI works

00:09:44.810 --> 00:09:46.360
 with the file system. You're

00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:51.010
 telling it, "Here are some files. Go do some stuff with

00:09:51.010 --> 00:09:55.480
 those files." So in order to do

00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:59.560
 that at the... And you have to have a specific type of file

00:09:59.560 --> 00:10:01.640
 system. So in order to do that

00:10:01.640 --> 00:10:05.280
 directly in Org Babel, I'd have to write an Org Babel

00:10:05.280 --> 00:10:07.840
 extension, which are not super easy

00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.450
 to write, that kind of writes files into a temp directory

00:10:11.450 --> 00:10:13.320
 in a certain format, blah,

00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:16.720
 blah, blah, which is hard. What's a lot easier is just tell

00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:18.600
 Tangle to just dump the file

00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.020
 and have a file watcher running. And whenever it happens,

00:10:22.020 --> 00:10:24.120
 it just deploys to an Arduino,

00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:33.630
 for example. Yeah, so it's basically a way of integrating

00:10:33.630 --> 00:10:35.120
 with things that require the

00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:36.120
 file system.

00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:41.650
 - Sorry, George, was there a question for me? I'm not sure

00:10:41.650 --> 00:10:43.160
 I was...

00:10:43.160 --> 00:10:46.240
 - Oh, no, no, no, no, no. I think that was the answer to

00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:48.120
 the question. I'm now looking

00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:49.120
 to see if there's...

00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:50.120
 - Okay, sorry.

00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:51.120
 - Yeah, we have more questions.

00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:55.050
 - Also, George, to give you a little bit of a heads up, we

00:10:55.050 --> 00:10:57.240
 have opened the Q&A right now,

00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.830
 and people should be able to join. But we only have about

00:11:00.830 --> 00:11:02.640
 three more minutes until we

00:11:02.640 --> 00:11:06.260
 need to go on a little bit of a break. So feel free to

00:11:06.260 --> 00:11:08.480
 answer as many questions on the

00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:11.500
 pad as possible. I don't see anyone in the chat, on BBB

00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:13.240
 right now, so questions on the

00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:14.240
 pad.

00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:20.400
 - Yeah, so I'll just put a couple more things. I'm a big

00:11:20.400 --> 00:11:24.720
 fan of plant QML, and I will regularly

00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:30.750
 use plant QML to do both architecture diagrams and wire

00:11:30.750 --> 00:11:34.800
frames using their salt language for

00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:37.850
 mockups. So I'll write an entire technical document being

00:11:37.850 --> 00:11:39.160
 like, "Here's what we should

00:11:39.160 --> 00:11:42.250
 do," and be putting stuff directly in it. People see it,

00:11:42.250 --> 00:11:45.040
 and they're like, "Oh, mockup's

00:11:45.040 --> 00:11:50.990
 great." Not directly about... Oh, TreeSitter integration,

00:11:50.990 --> 00:11:53.600
 because you can now use TreeSitter.

00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.110
 So you can use TreeSitter to analyze other code files. So

00:11:57.110 --> 00:11:59.080
 for example, I recently wrote

00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:03.210
 a little TreeSitter script that would pop open a TypeScript

00:12:03.210 --> 00:12:05.200
 file, analyze all the exports,

00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.420
 and grab everything that's exported along with its .com and

00:12:08.420 --> 00:12:10.000
 just dump it into my document

00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:14.780
 so I can review it and update it just by with a keystroke

00:12:14.780 --> 00:12:18.160
 as that file evolves. And just

00:12:18.160 --> 00:12:23.820
 an honorable mention, I would say I recently found out Org-

00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:25.720
Rome UI. So if you're an Org-Rome

00:12:25.720 --> 00:12:29.050
 user, that's an awesome visualization where it starts a

00:12:29.050 --> 00:12:30.720
 server and shows you a little

00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.370
 web page with everything visualized. And just in terms of

00:12:35.370 --> 00:12:38.720
... It's nice and cool and useful,

00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.690
 but it's also a great politics hack where you start a new

00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:44.680
 job or a team, and then you

00:12:44.680 --> 00:12:47.670
 spend a month, a week taking your notes. So you have 80

00:12:47.670 --> 00:12:49.080
 notes or something like that,

00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:50.800
 because they're a little bit... And then at the end of the

00:12:50.800 --> 00:12:51.760
 week, you do your one-on-one

00:12:51.760 --> 00:12:54.560
 with your manager. You're like, "Here's the visualization

00:12:54.560 --> 00:12:56.360
 and everything," and your jaw

00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:57.360
 drops. Yes.

00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.750
 It is. It is amazing. Org-Rome UI is amazing. I'm a little

00:13:00.750 --> 00:13:02.480
 biased, so I won't talk too much

00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:04.500
 about it because people in the know will know that I've

00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:06.040
 actually helped with the development

00:13:06.040 --> 00:13:08.700
 of Org-Rome. But yes, Org-Rome UI is so great. I also

00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:11.000
 worked in a team where we were presenting

00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:14.930
 Org-Rome and Org-Rome UI to people who had no idea of what

00:13:14.930 --> 00:13:16.840
 was Emacs or Org-Mode, but

00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:21.420
 they could see atoms and they could see them being linked.

00:13:21.420 --> 00:13:24.160
 It was so amazing. It just works.

00:13:24.160 --> 00:13:26.320
 It's great when things just work.

00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:27.320
 Yeah.

00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.120
 All right, George. Any last thing you'd like to say to the

00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:32.960
 stream before we wrap up?

00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.980
 Nope. Put more workflows in the document if you have any

00:13:36.980 --> 00:13:38.320
 other ideas too.

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:41.440
 Cool. Amazing. We'll be on the lookout for this. So George,

00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:42.440
 thank you so much for your

00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.640
 presentation and for your questions, and we will see you

00:13:45.640 --> 00:13:46.760
 later probably.

00:13:46.760 --> 00:13:47.760
 Thank you. Bye-bye.

00:13:47.760 --> 00:13:48.760
 Bye-bye.

00:13:48.760 --> 00:13:58.820
 I'm still there. See you in a bit, folks. Oh, sorry. Sorry.

00:13:58.820 --> 00:14:00.920
 I'm panicking. Give me

00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:08.300
 a second. Sure. You saw me whisper right now. We will be

00:14:08.300 --> 00:14:09.640
 going on a little bit of a break

00:14:09.640 --> 00:14:14.960
 right now. The next talk will be due in about 10 minutes.

00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:18.200
 So at 35 of the current hour,

00:14:18.200 --> 00:14:21.450
 we will be reconvening on Gen for the next talk. So see you

00:14:21.450 --> 00:14:23.560
 in a bit and enjoy the break.

00:14:23.560 --> 00:14:29.160
 You are currently the only person in this conference.

00:14:29.160 --> 00:14:41.310
 Give me just a second. I'll put some music for the break.

00:14:41.310 --> 00:14:45.240
 Right now I'm doing too many

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 things at the same time. So we will have to wait a little

00:14:47.140 --> 00:14:48.280
 bit for everything to work.

00:14:48.280 --> 00:14:50.340
 I'll put the music on first so that you have something nice

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 to listen to, which is Shoshin

00:14:51.560 --> 00:15:04.440
 Music the Lloyd.

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)

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 (Music)