path: root/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-mail--revisiting-the-anatomy-of-emacs-mail-user-agents--mohsen-banan--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

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Thank you, Mohsen, very much for the great talk.

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People, if you have questions, please put them on the pad,

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or IRC, but preferably the pad, and then we'll also open this room

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in a minute or two so that if anyone who wants to join here and ask the questions

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directly to Mohsen, they could do that as well.

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Dear Mohsen, please take it away.

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Hello, greetings.

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Yeah, I don't see any questions yet,

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so let me add a few additional notes

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to what was in the presentation.

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In there, I make several points.

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Some of them are tactical, some are more strategic.

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Let me delve into the strategic message a bit.

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On the messaging capabilities of Emacs

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and the broader office environment capabilities of Emacs,

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we have a huge, incredibly powerful asset,

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but the amount of complexity

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and the surrounding configuration capabilities

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and hurdles and difficulties that are involved

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into making a really powerful environment for ourselves,

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we have a big obstacle,

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and that obstacle is that of integration.

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Over the past 40 years, the general model has been that of producing components

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where we do great stuff.

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We put various email MTAs and support them through Emacs.

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Additionally, we say that we want Emacs to be used on all platforms.

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If you're on Windows, there is Emacs support for it.

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If there is Mac OS, there is support for that.

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And of course, all of the GNU Linux stuff,

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capabilities and platforms.

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So all of this results into tremendous amounts of energy

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to go both on the developer side and on the user side to support everything.

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And that's what we have been doing over the past 40 years.

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What I am saying is that perhaps we should revisit this approach

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and consider moving towards creating a complete

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Libre Halal free software digital ecosystem for ourselves

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and consider Emacs as the usage environment

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of that totality of the digital ecosystem.

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This will solve many problems if we were to buy into such an approach.

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If we were to say that as the platform de facto

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and because of everything that is happening,

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Debian is a reasonable good choice.

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And then we would tie in all Emacs capabilities

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primarily and firstly to our own platform

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and start building on it.

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So let's take the situation with email in such a scenario.

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The main obstacles that we have right now is that

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GNU comes out with support for pretty much everything.

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But as the user, someone trying to buy into doing email on Emacs,

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which of these facilities, which of these features

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would be the right way to go?

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So what I am saying, having chosen our platform as Debian,

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what if we were to say that we would buy into something like Q-mail

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as the outgoing message model and just fully bring it in

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and consider it as the only and the default MTA

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for everything that we do?

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Suddenly a whole lot of complexity goes away.

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And similarly for bringing in email,

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what if we were to say that we have bought into offline IMAP

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and then the next really interesting piece is

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what should be our mailboxes?

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This notion that today de facto Gmail is the universal place

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where you get your mailboxes.

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And very easily we can, not very easily,

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but we certainly can support Gmail.

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But what if we were to get in the business of actually providing

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mailboxes for everyone and combine that with the platform

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and the main user agent?

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So that's really the strategic message that I want to,

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that I'm sending.

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Excellent, thank you.

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And I think in the meantime we have four questions

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on the panel already.

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Okay, I don't see them here.

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Oh, are you looking in the public chat here on the big blue button?

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Yes.

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Okay, let me put a link.

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So there's a separate pad where people are posting their questions.

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Okay, now I am seeing.

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Yeah, if it might be easier I could probably copy the questions over here.

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No, no, I am actually seeing them.

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Okay.

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Perfectly, perfectly okay.

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So the first question is something I have liked about Not Much

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is using Maildear makes searching fast

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and the knowledge that you have all your email period.

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Why GNU's over Not Much?

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As a side note, you have also Much Think for Not Much client

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and Jmap for more exotic normal clients.

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So I think there are two things going on here.

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Not Much is more than one thing.

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Not Much is a search, a mail search engine

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and also Not Much is a MUA.

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So in terms of choosing, certainly for search, for mail search capabilities,

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we should go with Not Much

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and there is GNU's search capabilities for Not Much in there.

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So what I am suggesting is that we stick to GNU's as an MUA,

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but the search capabilities that you are talking about

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or that the question mentions are certainly available.

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A second question is, so the idea is more about Emacs

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as a holistic computing experience with other packages and services

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rather than about email specifically

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as an alternative to something like Microsoft Office Suite.

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Yes, this is right on the point.

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What I am saying is that email by itself

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is not really all that meaningful or interesting

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and everywhere that you look in the proprietary model,

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you would see that the likes of Google and the likes of Microsoft

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do not view email as standalone capabilities.

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They see it as integrated with address book.

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They see it as integrated with calendar.

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They see it integrated with search.

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They see it as integrated with your to-do list and time management.

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So you are very right.

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The question is right on point.

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Email by itself is not significant

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and the reason why Emacs is the right place to do email

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is because Emacs is the kitchen sink.

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It does absolutely everything and that is what you want.

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The third question is,

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early on you express misgivings about the Western copyright regime

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but you are using a GPL license.

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Is that a conflict?

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Great work by the way.

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No, I don't think it is a conflict.

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My position is that the Western intellectual property right regime

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is a colossal ownership mistake.

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Having said that, and I do call for its abolishment,

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having said that, it is unrealistic to assume or recognize

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that just because I say it and just because I believe it,

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in fact it will be abolished or that a significant change would happen,

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particularly in the Western world.

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So in the Western context, what can we do?

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What should we do?

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What I am saying there is that particularly in the context of services,

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all licenses should be the strictest ones possible

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and the one that is codified is the Afero GPL license.

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So I have subjected all my work to the Afero GPL license.

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I know of GNU, how do you think about using it for packaging,

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configuring Emacs, your various packages,

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else you might look it up or NixOS.

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So the idea here is that when we go back to this full integration

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in the context of a digital ecosystem,

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a major challenge is that of bringing in all the necessary packages

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from different sources.

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So for example, in the context of male user agents,

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to put things together you need a set of apt packages

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coming from the DBN world.

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You need a set of pypi packages coming from the Python world

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and you need a set of list packages coming from Elisp archives.

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And likely you need a whole lot of others.

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You need possibly Node.js stuff and you also possibly need Ruby stuff.

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And this integration is going to be complex.

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The approach that I have taken is that of going best of breed

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in the context of each of the domains.

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So in Python, while there may be other packaging models,

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we go with pypi.

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On the platform, it's clear that it's apt.

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On the Linux, over the past five years, we have solved mostly

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that archiving machinery.

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If the question is, and I'm not familiar with the specifics

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of what was mentioned in terms of a unified packaging model,

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but if the question is that of a unified packaging integration model,

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I'd love to do it when it's mature and ready.

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At this point, I am going the route of best of breed selections

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within each domain.

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And if I chime in briefly, Mohsen, I think there was a typo in the question.

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They are asking about GNU Geeks or mentioning GNU Geeks

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and also potentially NixOS.

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And I think these two also very much go with your idea

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of tying everything together, these different package management systems.

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So GNU Geeks is a GNU Linux distribution like Debian is,

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but it's written in GNU Guile Lisp or Guile Scheme.

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And it's a very interesting concept where all of the packaging code

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and everything is done in GNU Guile Scheme and ties everything together

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and integrates great with Emacs.

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So that might be something worth checking out later on.

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Right.

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I had taken a very cursory look at that, and I'll keep my eyes open on it.

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I think in due course, maybe that's the way to go.

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There's one more question coming in.

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I let the person who is asking the question to complete it.

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Okay.

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Yeah, in the meantime, I'll also mention that I think we have about

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four more minutes of on-stream live Q&A time, at which point after that,

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the stream will move on.

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But you Mohsen and, of course, people watching are welcome to come here,

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join this Big Blue Button Room directly and ask the questions here

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or on the pad.

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Great.

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Great.

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So let me read the question.

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Is this being split up in a heavily configured server for email hosting

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and the thin client package for you locally client to integrate with your

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Emacs package?

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Maybe with a client thin Docker container for other packages,

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like not much locally?

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Actually, that is not really exactly what I am speaking of.

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The concept of a thin client is difficult to characterize.

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So if you have Emacs and everything else that you want to use as a usage

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environment along with your email system, if we want to call that a thin

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client, certainly that is what I call the usage environment.

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On the services side, I am not speaking of just one.

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I am speaking of support for multiple, of course, obviously,

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but having one that in my own case, for example, by name.net,

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is the primary support.

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And in terms of packaging that as a thin client instead of inside of a

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Docker, that is certainly possible, but it is not, I don't consider it as

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the only way to go.

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You can do your packaging any way you want and, well, you can do your

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packaging and then deliver it however you want.

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On these questions, if I was not on the point in understanding the

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questions and answering them correctly, if there are any follow-ups,

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I would be happy to take them.

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Yeah, if there are no other questions, I can perhaps bring up the

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presentation and maybe make a few additional points.

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So, I think one key slide in here is this one, where what I am saying

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is that we have been very good at producing components and that we

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really need to get into systems development or environments

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development as opposed to components development.

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And to raise that a bit more so that we can move towards having

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something that we can call a non-procreatory digital ecosystem,

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I think we need to work towards having frameworks for services.

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And while we have defined free software or what I call Libre

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Halal software, we don't have precise definitions for Libre services,

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free services.

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Free services is going to be a very bad name, because we want it to

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be commercial.

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We want people to pay for it as they use it.

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And so the natural name would be something like Libre services.

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And in that context, if you go to Libre services.org, you will see

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my definition of what that would mean, what non-proprietary

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codification of services would mean.

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Another slide perhaps to take a look at is this one, where I am

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making the case for not considering Emacs by itself as core of

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anything, but viewing and cultivating and introducing this

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concept of common agent and building on it.

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Let me go see if there are any other questions.

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Yeah, I didn't see any more.

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May I drop in and ask a question directly?

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Of course.

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Okay, so I have a question regarding combining GNU and NotMuch.

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Yes.

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So do you combine tagging facilities of NotMuch into GNU as well?

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Sorry, can you repeat that?

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Do you also integrate tagging facilities of NotMuch into GNU?

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Tagging? I have not done that.

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Okay, because I was looking into combining GNU and NotMuch at some point,

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but what stopped me from continuing is that NotMuch is mostly about tags,

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and then GNU has a search option for NotMuch, using NotMuch.

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But how do you add tags from GNU?

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Right, in terms of continuous use, it's only recently that I'm doing that,

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and I don't think it means that it is not doable.

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It's just that in my own case, I haven't done it.

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Yeah, it's certainly doable.

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You present this unified system that brings everything together.

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So I was wondering if it's already implemented.

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Yeah, I must say all that I do is I want to say that that is the direction that I want to go.

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Okay.

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We have a long way to go.

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It's mostly a question of, and that is not the general direction and formalization that has been happening.

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So more or less, a lot of what I mentioned in there is not fully baked.

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Okay, thanks.

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I think we also have a question here in chat, Mohsen.

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I wasn't sure if you already saw or answered it or not.

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Sorry.

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No, let me, is it on the chat?

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Yes, public chat here on big blue button.

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Question by Thuna.

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Oh, public chat on the big blue button.

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Yeah.

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Can you expand on definition of Libre Halal?

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I'm a bit lost.

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Yes.

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Yes, yes, yes, yes.

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So, you see, we have labels of free software that are well established, and we have definitions of open source that are well established.

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And both of these are in the Western context and from the perspective of Western folks.

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What I am saying is that neither free software nor open source are the right labels.

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What we are looking for is actually ethical software, not free software.

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Freedom is something that is wonderful and great, but it may not be the right thing to be free.

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What I am saying here is that a manner of existence of software is the key concept.

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Allow me to share the screen.

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Just one moment.

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And maybe point you to a place where I could answer it in depth.

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It is certainly not a topic that I could do justice to in just a moment.

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So, if you were to look for nature of polyexistentials and Googling that would take you there, there is a 250-page document there that says why I believe the Western intellectual property rights is wrong.

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And it goes through and says, well, if polyexistentials are not to be governed by the intellectual property rights regime, then what is the right manner of governing them?

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So, what is the right manner of existence of software? And what label should we use for that?

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And in here, there is a whole section that about 10 pages or so that describes what Halal means and why the Libre Halal label is the right label.

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So, let me perhaps point you to that section.

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Yeah, this is on the Cure section.

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I think if you were to go to chapter 12, that would be a good place.

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Do you happen to have the link to this page handy, Mohsan?

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Yeah, it is included in the presentation. Let me go there very quickly.

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Oops, sorry.

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Just one moment.

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Yeah, it's in the presentation with a QR code. So, let me look it up and bring it back up again.

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Thank you.

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So, the link for that document is on slide 13.

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Can you see it?

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I'm not seeing your slides, but okay, it is getting shared again. Yep. Thanks.

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Yeah, sorry. Go ahead.

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Yeah, that is the...

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Oh, very good. Somebody else also threw it up on there.

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But it's a little bit different.

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Yes, yes.

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Yeah, it's PLPC 120.0.33.

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I mean, any other questions? Yes, thank you.

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Thanks. Yeah, I don't see any other questions on the panel.

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Oh, there's one new question here from Thuna again.

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What is the scope of what you are imagining? Just software?

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No, certainly not just software. It is software and services.

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So, that is, I think, the next challenge and the next step for us.

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We have to think of ways of competing with Gmail and Outlook.com.

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So, services are certainly within the scope.

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In the abstract sense of what polyexistentials are.

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So, polyexistentials are things that exist in multiples.

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So, any form of knowledge is within the scope.

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And that goes to medications, goes to anything that is patentable and art and anything that is copyable.

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Yes, NFTs are a form of creating mono-existentials out of polyexistentials.

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So, by the time that you create an NFT, it is no longer the subject of what I am talking about.

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But the process of creating mono-existentials off of polyexistentials is what we should be discussing.

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There is a section in that book on that topic as well with the same subject of how one goes about creating that.

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You see, any sort of a name could be thought of as an NFT.

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So, if you think of our domain name system, although it is in the realm of software and services,

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what you have emacsconf.org that has become unique and it's a mono-existential.

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I think my key message here is this vocabulary of polyexistence and mono-existence and mixed existence,

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which is the novelty in the stuff that I have written.

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We all have understood these for a long time.

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It's a question of coming up with the right vocabulary to express them with precision that remains and then acting on them.

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Excellent.

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As a lot of people have said, I think both here and also in IRC, there is a lot of information and material to digest from this talk

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and to try to think really deeply about for the coming weeks and months.

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So, that's great.

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Thank you.

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We can keep this session going as long as you want.

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The stream has already moved on, but here it is open.

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If folks have any more questions, feel free to post them here or on the separate pad page.

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Yeah, or if not, then we can all drop off at some point.

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Sure.

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If there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

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Otherwise, perhaps we could go and watch the rest.

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Yeah, I mean, I think perhaps it's a good thing to consider the session complete.

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Sure, sounds good to me.

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Thank you again very much Mohsen, really appreciate it.

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Thank you.

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Cheers, take care.

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Take care.