path: root/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-hyperorg--powerful-productivity-with-hyperbole-and-org-mode--robert-weiner--answers.vtt

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Sorry, it's a little tight. I'm doing a lot of stuff behind the scene and now we're ready

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to go live in about five seconds. Sorry, five more seconds. Five. And we are live. Hello

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again, everyone. Hopefully you can hear me just fine. And we just had a talk with Bob

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and Bob is now here in the room. Hi Bob, how are you doing? Hi, doing well. Good to see

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you, Leo. You're doing a great job. Well, thank you. I must say, I am back to asking

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questions, but for the last two hours, I have been running after pre-recordings. I have

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been doing the re-encoding and stuff like this, which means it doesn't look like this,

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but this was very much of a marathon. And I'm glad to be here to be in a room with you

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because I'm actually going to be able to rest a little bit.

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Did you see the presentation? Not yet. Okay, can I lie? If I were able to lie, I would

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say yes, I've been very attentively watching everything in a presentation, but sadly, no,

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I've been quite busy elsewhere. And because, well, no, we don't need to tell them about

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this. But Bob, do you have the pad open in front of you? Yes. Well, I can't look at both

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at the same time, but... It's fine. You don't need to see my face. You've seen it. Okay.

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I see it here. Can you have multiple implicit button files? If so, how would you know which

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link came from what files? I guess they're one-way links, so you embed buttons in any

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number of files that you want and you traverse them, or they perform actions for you. There

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are three categories of buttons. We were showing you implicit buttons, which is one category.

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Then there's explicit buttons, which can also perform arbitrary actions, but those you embed

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one at a time in a file and you say, okay, I want this to be a link to an org file section

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or something. And then... Sorry for the interruption. Can we keep going? The third kind are global

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buttons, which we demonstrated there when you put those in your personal button file,

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and then you can access them by name anywhere in Emacs without even having a buffer up on

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screen. The next question... So I should just go down the questions? You don't have any

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Leo? No, no, feel free. I'm mostly here to be the pretty face that when a problem happens,

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I'm here to help. But since you have questions already in the pad, I'm more than happy to

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have you answer the question from the pad. And if we have a little more time, I'll come

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up with my own questions, so don't worry about it. Yeah, and encourage people to come into

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the chat. We can do something live and then go back to the Etherpad and deal with these

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later as well if people want to talk. So just to specify this, we might first have you answer

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the questions on the pad first and we'll open up the BBT a little later. For now, just you

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on the pad. I'll keep you posted. So are we showing the pad so people see it or I need

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to share that? So I'm sharing the pad right now, I'm managing what people are seeing on

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the stream. You might want to have the pad in front of you and read the question anyway

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to know which question you're actually answering. Okay, I do have the pad separately. Okay.

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What about using implicit buttons with multiple people with different configs? Not quite sure

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what the question is, but hyperbole is always thinking about people working collaboratively,

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though it is also somewhat focused on your personal information. So as you saw when we

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embedded a variable, either an Emacs list variable or an environment variable in a path,

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you can share those with people. You can embed hyperbole buttons in your email messages and

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they'll adapt based on the environment that the person activates them in. So there's a

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lot of useful kind of capability like that built in for collaboration as well. Coming

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in from org mode, would it be a fair assessment that hyperbole is in some way a generalization

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of what most people think of the great features of org to work across formats with the hyperbole

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links buttons being the recurring example and that it then further adds some capabilities

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again across formats being the global miner mode is interesting. I think it goes to RMS's

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talk that org's features could be more generalized modularized. How is hyperbole in that respect?

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Yes, it hyperbole is meant to give you all of these capabilities across your entire Emacs

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experience. So everything you saw in org mode works and all sorts of other buffer types

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to accept the pieces that were activating org's specific features. Internal radio targets,

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are they able to link to other org mode files that are part of my agenda? Certainly you

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can have, you can make a link type that crosses similar to what you saw in the K outliner

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links where you specified a file and then it just would have the sub part of the link

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that you wanted that would reference the target as well. Your package advances how useful

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a mouse can be with creating links. That we didn't show but you can just drag between

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windows and create an explicit link between things as well. Do you have any experience

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or thoughts about how touchscreens or mice could be used or improved with Emacs? Yes

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I do. In fact, when hyperbole was conceived originally it was part of a broader research

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project called personalized information environments. At the dawn of the web is when this started

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and we kind of figured people would be deluged with maybe 5,000 email messages a day or just

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all sorts of things like we are deluged with today. So we were thinking about sort of like

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org brain and the graphical sort of navigation that you could do in hyper versus and came

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up with some prototypes that were kind of very iPad like in the node sort of views but

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with much greater navigation capability. So a lot of that isn't implemented but we are

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always thinking about how to make things more useful and you see the smart context handling

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that the mouse keys do because there's drags associated with the action and the assist

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keys when put onto mice and those do a great many things that sort of replicate what a

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touchscreen might do as well. Would you consider hyperbole to be more of a format spec that

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can then be handled however we want or the engine itself along with that format i.e.

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can the simple link formats be used for other extensible purposes. Yes again hyperbole was

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conceived as a hypertext engine that would be part of the personalized information environments

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or pies and it would link that engine would then be available to multiple applications.

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So we sort of built an API not a web API but just a programming API that you can use and

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that's documented in the manual to build other applications atop hyperbole. It turned out

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that a lot of people didn't have that capability to program it so we just kept programming

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a lot of these default features that you see today with all the button types to show people

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what was possible. How is the integration with org roam? We're just starting to look

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at that you know again I just find with hyperbole there are no external required packages you

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just load hyperbole and whatever Emacs has that's all that it needs so that's kind of

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unique for such a big package like this. There are optional things like ace window that you

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can add on and then hyperbole will work with them but they're not required. So similarly

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we try to never have any separate C compiled programs like SQLite or org roam which uses

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SQLite that's required. However we interface to external systems like that so basically

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you know we'll do some interesting things with org roam nodes in the near future. When

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does something when doing something where do you determine where to put it k-o-t-l rollo

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org? I like k-o-t-l k-outline for journaling and org mode for getting things done. Sure

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I mean you know org and k-outliner are both outline formats so I like k-outliner for like

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requirements gathering anytime I need things numbered quickly I'm making lists or hierarchies

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I want those IDs there. Org does some of that but not nearly to the level that the k-outliner

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does. The rollo again I just stuff all sorts of information in there and then we have very

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simple search and retrieval operations that we can use on there so I don't need to worry

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about all of these like drawers and all the complexity that org allows because you want

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to publish something. I tend to use everything as a live hypertext and don't worry about

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printing it out or displaying it in some other format too much. So it depends on your taste

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I would say. Would you recommend a specific resource for getting into hyperbole or should

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I just start with the manual? Definitely interested in getting into this. Thank you for asking

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that. Definitely don't start with manual. The manual is almost 170 pages it's a reference

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manual for specific things that you want to know. For learning once you install hyperbole

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part of the menu system is control H HDD for documentation and then demo and that puts

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you into an interactive demo that you just walk through so it's sort of like the Emacs

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tutorial and that'll get you started much better than any other way and the second thing

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to do after that I would say is watch some of the videos. One of the videos is a talk

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I gave earlier that's about an hour-long talk introducing you to hyperbole and its concepts

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so I think those are the two best ways to get started and then you can move on to the

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reference manual if you're really good at reading. What is hyperorg? That's a name that

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Sasha made up I believe for the talk here. I thought it should be hyperborg. It would

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be a little funnier that right we're trying to be like a borg and get people to use hyperbole

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and org together and then you'll never you'll never want to be anything else except users

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of those packages. Anybody want to talk live on the big blue button?

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Again so the thing is I didn't give you the time when we were supposed to finish with

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the Q&A and give me just a second. I've confirmed with the people behind me that we actually

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need to get moving to the next talk at the top of this minute so Bob thank you so much

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for answering so many questions. I'm sorry we don't have more time for questions because

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your talk I think was a little longer than we anticipated at first but I still believe

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you've done a great job at first covering a lot of stuff.

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I'll be on the etherbed for a little while if people want to push anything else there.

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Also if you want to stay here we are going to open the BBB if people want to ask you

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questions we're going to publish the link. Bob we're going to need to get going with

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the stream we're starting the next talk in 20 seconds thank you so much and I'll see

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you later. Take care Leo thank you. Bye bye.

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Gosh yeah pretty much I mean I'm still on this thing if it shows up for a minute but

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nobody's there.

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Take care.

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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you

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Would you still be up to talking?

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Hi, are you talking to me?

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Yeah.

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For a minute, I'm going to just go take a walk in a little bit, but I can quickly pause.

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Just go ahead.

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One thing whenever I've tried setting up any knowledge bases, I've generally thrown them

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away after a while, slowly picking up more and more.

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Right now, I'm using org room and LogSec.

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And one of the features I found in LogSec that I like is you're able to have the link

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in such a way where I can make an outline of everything I want to do on a week in one

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file and then in the journal view that it will dynamically generate, it will show you

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the tasks individually on that day just for that day.

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So is there any way?

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So it creates kind of a journal based on dated items that it's extracting from multiple other

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sources, right?

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Yeah.

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So it's got a section below it that's from different sources and you can go and do that

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and it will just dynamically put it at the bottom, but just for those specific links.

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You know, sort of like the idea of transclusion, right, is something that they've addressed

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in org mode and we haven't really dealt with that in hyperbole.

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So those are areas that we want to get into.

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I think there's a lot of work going on in LogSec and Obsidian that I look at when I

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have time.

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So there's definitely ideas to draw around that.

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One of the things we find is there's just covering all across Emacs, there's so much

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to do all the time and this being a part-time project, we have to think like RMS does across

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years rather than weeks just because of the energy around it.

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But you know, the more people can kind of like write a paragraph and say if hyperbole

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or some tool could do this, you know, the more likely it is that we'll approach it and

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turn it into reality.

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Yeah.

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Well, like you could probably write some functions that will just dynamically grab information

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like that out.

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Yeah, well, I mean like you have that with the high roller so you can just make arbitrary

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documents and just put stars at the front of each node and the high roller will pull

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out anything that you want to match on.

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You know, it can be regular expressions, logic expressions with and or not.

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So that's already there and it's very simple with the other capabilities to just turn

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a search into a button somewhere in your file.

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So you basically create your own dynamic views then without any additional mechanism.

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But when you want to deal with like the dates and you want to see it, you know, that's a

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specific view that we would program for you and provide.

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With Not Much and MU4E, the thing I like about Not Much More is you're able to in your search

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queries you can use the ands and ors with subject headers or stuff that's only in the

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body of the paragraph of the email or who it's to and from and I don't think MU4E has

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near that support.

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You could use something with org mode and you could do that type of stuff searching

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like based off of keywords with, there's a package by Alpha Papa, I can't remember the

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name of it.

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Org Rifle.

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OrgQL.

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OrgQL, yeah.

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And does like you have anything?

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I mean, yeah, it's like, I'm not sure you combine say subject, colon, whatever, your

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regular expression and you map that with a logic expression.

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So in hyperbole, in high roll though, to do a logic expression, you just do it like a

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Lisp expression.

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So but you use and or, ex or not.

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So you say, you know, open paren, not, and then what you want to not match to, right?

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This node doesn't have that in it and you know, a broader expression with an and around

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it would say, so it's not this and it's this.

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So that all exists the moment you pull up the interface to say, I want to do a string

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search.

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You can actually embed those logic expressions right in your search there and it'll do them

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for you.

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That would mostly be regex, right, or is it a different syntax?

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It's a different, so you can have regexes embedded in the logic expression, but the

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logic itself is done with like the equivalent of, you know, S expressions with and or not

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an ex or.

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So I could say and bird watch and it would only find outline items that contain the words

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bird and watch.

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So it's very simple, you know, textual like that, but then bird could be a regex if I,

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you know, as well.

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So things like that, you have to try it out, I think, you know, to really get a feel for

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it.

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I've tried it some, I just, it's just a lot harder to, they have so many of these knowledge

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base programs that it's hard to make a knowledge base with each one of them and then compare

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them.

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Oh, I agree.

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I mean, that's part of why we built it, right?

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I mean, we built this before org existed, so.

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You know, I really do want to tie them together, but I agree with Stallman that org, you know,

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for scientific research purposes has embedded so many things that people outside that community

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don't really need and, you know, it's gotten to a level of complexity, I mean, you look

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at the code base that I still kind of, you know, happy to interface with it and use it

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and I see a lot of great stuff in there, but I want to be able to have a much simpler format

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for when I just have all this unstructured data that I want to deal with.

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Yeah, there's definitely a part of org mode that, that unmodularity and all the features

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that doesn't feel like Unix-y and the rest of Emacs and I think like org, yeah, just

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some of the features, org-id, I can't remember what they are.

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It's really the opposite.

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It's like, it's coming at it from, you know, that structure process, okay, we're going

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to tag everything with, you know, what property it is.

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And hyperbole is sort of the opposite to say, well, we have relational databases for when

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we're doing that kind of thing.

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So this is for your everyday information where, you know, oh, I just grabbed all this off

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the web or, you know, I just added in 200 files and now I want to deal with it and kind

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of mix it into my Hyperverse.

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What kind of capabilities can you give me to do that?

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So say like there were 200 documents that somebody handed you and they all have this

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cross-reference pattern embedded in it, right, which is a version of hyperlinks, but they're

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not actually hyperlinks.

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So you just create a couple line button type in hyperbole because all the mechanisms there

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already.

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And then once you activate that type, all of those documents now have those cross-references

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as hyperlinks.

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And you solve the problem could be for millions of cross-references with three lines of code.

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So that's the kind of leverage that we're looking to get without people having to, you

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know, touch the original source format.

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That's one of the things your package has tackled was links in the wild, email addresses,

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websites that people use and identify with.

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And then you got all that behavior without having to learn key bindings like you do in

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the org, right?

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I mean, you got to know at least like 10 in the org, I think.

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And you know, it's really too largely in hyperbole.

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So for me, when I'm going along, you know, I just want to mark things, operate on them

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and not really think about the command a lot.

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And so, of course, we all know many commands in Emacs, but, you know, so I have that the

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editing commands, but the knowledge base commands, I don't really need to add on that much more

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and I can still be very effective.

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Yeah, you dealt with links in the wild while simultaneously advancing the state of the

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art with the implicit links.

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So like what can you do if you stay within your own system and you control everything?

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Yeah, I think that's the, you know, people love implicit buttons, but it sort of takes

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a while for it to sink in what you can do with it, right?

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Because it is a little difficult to figure out how you create your own type.

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But like we have a GitHub, I don't know if you use GitHub, but type built in and, you

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know, with very short cross references, it can access issues, commits, projects, linked

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to all of their things with just, you know, a few characters in your document.

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And so, you know, there's an interface to an entire web ecosystem that's done in one

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module and I verbally and, you know, you don't, all you have to do is use it.

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Something that could be interesting there is if you had it with next common list web

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browser, you click a GitHub issue on the website and it either downloads the source code or

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just goes and then the uses maggot or forge to download the issues and then just automatically

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opens it up in Emacs for you to look at it there.

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That'd be an interesting.

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Yeah.

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Well, we have that for, so if you just type in any buffer, you put a bug pound sign and

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the number and you press your action key on that, that will display that bug number for

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Emacs in good news and the dialogue associated with it.

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So, you know, we have that similar kind of thing for GitHub, GitLab and so it's, you

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know, a lot of people are interested in that because they have Jira or something and they

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just want a simple way, you know, to get at their issues in whatever web browser they

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use.

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And that's very easy to do and one of the most common things programmers do.

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You still there?

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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It's just funny.

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So yeah, I hope, I guess you've obviously explored hyperbole a little bit, you know,

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let us know what the barriers are to, you know, becoming a regular user and we'll work

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on this.

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One thing I found that I like about the K outline is if you, long form journaling is

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if I do that with centering the buffer, making it a little bit bigger, the text a little

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bit bigger, I find that I like that more than org mode.

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If it's short enough, it doesn't matter, but if it's long enough or my thoughts are complex

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enough, not worrying about buffer headings or body paragraph content or anything along

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those lines, less presentation helps a lot in that.

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The automatic paragraph formatting just makes it work, I type, I'm good to go, it automatically

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does everything like that.

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Right.

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You can just write and you get all, you get all this stuff for free.

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That's kind of a lot, you know, that's like I talked about the cognitive overhead.

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You know, I think Emacs, people have a lot of trouble understanding why people stick

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with Emacs now, but I think it does, the common editing capabilities are very similar to hyperbole,

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right?

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So you go across all these modes, different applications, but the editing stays the same.

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That takes so much off your plate compared to learning new hotkeys for every application.

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And so, you know, we're sold and now you want that kind of thing for your writing, for your

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knowledge management.

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And yeah, I think org is, you know, really, it was built for the scientists, the researchers,

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right?

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They have to do all that stuff with citations.

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I'm never going to use the citation capability, right?

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I don't publish much anymore.

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So you know, all that work is kind of lost on me, whereas like, you know, better structured

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outlining is going to be a win for, you know, a very broad cross section of people.

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So I think it's, you know, I wish more people would give it a try, but I think now we're

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doing a lot more things that are making hyperbole more accessible to people.

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A lot of people, I don't know if we can, like people have asked for a doom interface or

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space max interface.

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I do notice on Reddit that tons of people seem to use one of those two and they've never

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learned Emacs in its core form, right?

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They're coming from VI, so they're Vim users or something.

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And they, I guess they like all this layering kind of capability, exposing the features.

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So I haven't really looked at that, but maybe, you know, if we did that and we don't have

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hyperbole on Melpa, so although, you know, some people, they replace Elpa mistakenly

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with Melpa, you know, in their config.

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And so they never see hyperbole because it's not in their packages.

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Like, I didn't know this existed, like, well, don't do that.

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One thing that would be nice for stuff like this is having Emacs in it for hyperbole with

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a knowledge base and then one with Orgrom and a knowledge base and one with the ZK package

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and a knowledge base, et cetera, et cetera.

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Is that something you might look at doing a little, you know, sort of like proof of

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concept of, and share with us, you know, give us some idea of your thoughts?

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I just thought of it while watching this talk, and I might put together some resources of,

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there's some other packages that, or ZK, or there's another one of these packages that

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has a knowledge base.

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I might put together resources like that, see if I see anybody else's.

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Yeah, that'd be great.

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And do you try to note, do you use a prods denote package?

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I haven't messed with that one yet.

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I've looked at it.

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One contention I see between using all these right here is, like, you have the org FC package

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for flashcards, and that would sound really nice for learning new English words that I

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ever come across.

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I could make that, put the description.

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But if I, it seems like you can either use org rom and you're completely tied into the

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org rom org system, or you don't do that, then you can't use any of those features where

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they treat each of the nodes as a individual system.

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I've dabbled with multiple of the systems, so maybe there's a way.

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Are you good with org rom?

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I've been having this one problem.

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It's weird.

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I get in this mode where I pointed it somewhere and it worked at one time, and now I repoint

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it somewhere, and then I point it back and it won't work anymore.

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So I can't get it to sometimes index my set of org files, and it seems like it should

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be so basic, but there's something in the sequence of how it caches, I guess, the directory

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of org files that maybe I've solved it already, I don't recall, but I was just wondering if

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anybody else had that experience.

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I've mostly just dabbled in a couple of these systems and then haven't really chosen one

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to just use.

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Do you program?

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Are you by nature a programmer or is it like a hobby?

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Hobby.

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I haven't done too much on writing my own functions, but Emacs is by far the biggest

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or longest program I've ever...longest program, config, whatever, that I've ever used.

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And you started on Emacs how long ago?

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Five or ten years ago, somewhere along those lines.

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Good one.

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Yeah, it was nice having Stelman there today, right?

43:48.160 --> 43:56.520
It's like, well, if you want an actual answer, there's something that only he could answer.

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I'm surprised how many questions there were on that talk.

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What about them?

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I was surprised just about how many questions there were on...

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Yeah, you hear all this negative stuff about him, but people are very interested in where

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stuff came from, why have you never used this package that everybody else uses and things

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like that, what his world view is, since it is so different than so many other people's.

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All right, well, great talking to you and good luck with your knowledge space research

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and yeah, let me know if there's something.

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Try out the development version of Hyperbole like I should, that'll get you all the newest

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features and we'll get 9.0 out as soon as we can.

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Yeah, I use the Borg, so I actually do try out the development already.

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Oh, great, super.

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Also because sometimes since I'm using the development version of Emacs, it doesn't always...

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I've had issues compiling in the past because I needed the newer code.

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I think, I can't entirely remember, but thanks for the package and good talking, nice ideas

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and talk.

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Yeah.

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Take care.

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Bye.

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Bye.