path: root/2021/captions/emacsconf-2021-forever--m-x-forever-why-emacs-will-outlast-text-editor-trends--david-wilson-system-crafters--main.vtt

WEBVTT

00:01.280 --> 00:02.800
Hi everyone! I'm very excited

00:02.800 --> 00:05.200
to be here at EmacsConf 2021 today

00:05.200 --> 00:06.640
to give my talk called

00:06.640 --> 00:09.360
"M-x Forever: How Emacs Will Outlast

00:09.360 --> 00:11.519
Text Editor Trends."

00:11.519 --> 00:13.759
So let's start with the conclusion first.

00:13.759 --> 00:15.040
I know, it's a little bit unorthodox,

00:15.040 --> 00:16.960
but let's just try and see what happens.

00:16.960 --> 00:18.400
So no matter what happens

00:18.400 --> 00:19.760
in the wider software world,

00:19.760 --> 00:21.520
GNU Emacs will continue to be

00:21.520 --> 00:22.640
a beloved program

00:22.640 --> 00:24.080
with a dedicated community

00:24.080 --> 00:25.199
and a healthy team

00:25.199 --> 00:00:28.079
of maintainers and contributors.

00:28.080 --> 00:29.439
You're probably wondering

00:29.439 --> 00:31.141
who am I to be making such a claim,

00:31.141 --> 00:32.640
so I'll tell you.

00:32.640 --> 00:34.640
I am David Wilson, the creator of the

00:34.640 --> 00:36.000
System Crafters YouTube channel

00:36.000 --> 00:38.079
and community. If you want to see

00:38.079 --> 00:39.040
a lot of really great videos

00:39.040 --> 00:41.280
about GNU Emacs, GNU Guix, etc.,

00:41.280 --> 00:42.719
come check out my YouTube channel.

00:42.719 --> 00:44.480
I'm also on LBRY and Odysee

00:44.480 --> 00:46.399
if you don't want to go use YouTubea

00:46.399 --> 00:47.360
And also, if you're the type of person

00:47.360 --> 00:48.399
who doesn't want to use

00:48.399 --> 00:49.680
any of these websites

00:49.680 --> 00:51.039
and you want to see my videos anyway,

00:51.039 --> 00:52.160
please just send me an email

00:52.160 --> 00:53.280
at the email address below

00:53.280 --> 00:54.079
and I'll see if I can set you up

00:54.079 --> 00:55.520
with that. You can also check out

00:55.520 --> 00:58.160
my website and the places where we chat,

00:58.160 --> 00:59.440
especially on libera.chat

00:59.440 --> 01:01.440
at the #systemcrafters channel.

01:01.440 --> 01:02.719
If you have any thoughts

01:02.719 --> 01:03.600
after seeing this talk,

01:03.600 --> 01:04.799
please feel free to send me an email

01:04.799 --> 00:01:07.199
or find me on chat.

01:07.200 --> 01:09.920
So there is a recurring concern

01:09.920 --> 01:11.119
in the Emacs community

01:11.119 --> 01:12.799
about its popularity.

01:12.799 --> 01:14.320
This is something that keeps coming back

01:14.320 --> 01:16.479
time and time again. You probably see it

01:16.479 --> 01:18.640
every year or two where people on Reddit

01:18.640 --> 01:19.840
or maybe on the emacs-devel

01:19.840 --> 01:21.600
mailing list are talking about ways

01:21.600 --> 01:24.000
to increase Emacs popularity.

01:24.000 --> 01:25.600
More recently, there was a discussion

01:25.600 --> 01:27.600
on Hacker News where somebody posted

01:27.600 --> 01:28.159
a link to this

01:28.159 --> 01:31.360
Making Emacs Popular Again blog post

01:31.360 --> 01:32.479
which does chronicle some of the

01:32.479 --> 01:34.479
more recent discussions on emacs-devel

01:34.479 --> 01:35.840
about things that could be done

01:35.840 --> 01:38.479
to make Emacs a more popular editor.

01:38.479 --> 01:40.079
So the title of my talk claims

01:40.079 --> 01:41.280
that Emacs is going to

01:41.280 --> 01:43.759
outlast text editor trends.

01:43.759 --> 01:45.840
So to elaborate on this claim,

01:45.840 --> 01:46.799
we're going to try to answer

01:46.799 --> 01:48.720
a few specific questions.

01:48.720 --> 01:51.200
First of all, what is popularity

01:51.200 --> 01:53.280
and how do you even measure it?

01:53.280 --> 01:54.240
If people are saying

01:54.240 --> 01:55.920
that Emacs needs to be more popular,

01:55.920 --> 01:57.040
then what do we really mean

01:57.040 --> 01:59.040
by popularity?

01:59.040 --> 02:00.159
Also, what are the benefits

02:00.159 --> 02:01.920
of popularity? If emacs did somehow

02:01.920 --> 02:03.920
become more popular, what benefits

02:03.920 --> 02:05.680
would it receive from that?

02:05.680 --> 02:07.439
And also, how does an editor

02:07.439 --> 02:08.720
lose popularity, and what are

02:08.720 --> 02:11.120
the possible consequences to that?

02:11.120 --> 02:12.480
And then what are the unique factors

02:12.480 --> 02:13.680
about Emacs that will ensure

02:13.680 --> 02:16.000
that it survives long term?

02:16.000 --> 02:17.520
What is special about Emacs

02:17.520 --> 02:19.440
that will help it to thrive

02:19.440 --> 02:21.920
despite whatever happens in the

02:21.920 --> 02:24.560
popular sphere of text editors and

02:24.560 --> 00:02:26.958
programming languages, etc.?

02:26.959 --> 02:28.800
So, first of all, what does popularity

02:28.800 --> 02:30.720
really mean? When someone says

02:30.720 --> 02:32.400
that Emacs needs to become more popular,

02:32.400 --> 02:33.680
what are they really saying

02:33.680 --> 02:35.840
is that there needs to be more users,

02:35.840 --> 02:37.102
and that they stick around.

02:37.102 --> 02:38.800
Like, they learn how to use Emacs

02:38.800 --> 02:41.680
and they continue to be users.

02:41.680 --> 02:42.800
If we did get those new users,

02:42.800 --> 02:45.599
what would it actually do for Emacs?

02:45.599 --> 02:47.440
Also, is it that there are

02:47.440 --> 02:48.959
more community members that are

02:48.959 --> 02:51.040
creating new packages?

02:51.040 --> 02:52.480
You know, that sort of assumes

02:52.480 --> 02:53.519
that the editor itself

02:53.519 --> 02:54.720
doesn't have enough packages,

02:54.720 --> 02:55.519
or that the only way

02:55.519 --> 02:57.120
that the an editor stays alive

02:57.120 --> 02:58.800
is for there to be constant churn,

02:58.800 --> 03:01.440
with new packages coming around.

03:01.440 --> 03:03.120
Is it that there is more content

03:03.120 --> 03:04.319
being created by users,

03:04.319 --> 03:05.840
like more blog posts being written,

03:05.840 --> 03:07.920
more YouTube videos being made,

03:07.920 --> 03:09.360
more other ways that people are

03:09.360 --> 03:11.599
evangelizing the use of Emacs

03:11.599 --> 03:14.720
and also teaching people how to use it?

03:14.720 --> 03:16.080
Also, is it that

03:16.080 --> 03:18.720
more long-term stability is had

03:18.720 --> 03:20.159
in the editor, and more core

03:20.159 --> 03:21.280
improvements that are being made

03:21.280 --> 03:22.879
over time? I mean, I guess you could say

03:22.879 --> 03:23.760
that it does make sense

03:23.760 --> 03:25.680
that if the editor is more popular,

03:25.680 --> 03:26.959
then people will be more invested

03:26.959 --> 03:28.080
in improving it, and there will be

03:28.080 --> 03:30.000
more new contributors coming in,

03:30.000 --> 03:32.480
but is greater and greater popularity

03:32.480 --> 03:33.280
really what's needed

03:33.280 --> 03:35.280
to ensure that this happens?

03:35.280 --> 03:37.040
Also, it could just be that

03:37.040 --> 03:38.080
there's more validation

03:38.080 --> 03:40.480
for someone's personal choices.

03:40.480 --> 03:42.159
You know, people tend to use

03:42.159 --> 03:43.760
these software choices they use

03:43.760 --> 03:44.799
as part of their identity.

03:44.799 --> 03:46.000
So is it that they want Emacs

03:46.000 --> 03:46.799
to be more popular

03:46.799 --> 03:48.319
so that they can finally say,

03:48.319 --> 03:49.440
"I'm an Emacs user,"

03:49.440 --> 03:50.080
and have people think

03:50.080 --> 03:51.840
that they're cool or "hip" or whatever?

03:51.840 --> 03:52.720
I hope that... Hopefully,

03:52.720 --> 03:53.370
that's not the case.

03:53.370 --> 03:54.239
Hopefully, it's one of these

03:54.239 --> 03:56.000
other points. But it could be something

03:56.000 --> 03:57.120
because, as we see, you know,

03:57.120 --> 03:59.439
there's a lot of trends and fashion

03:59.439 --> 04:00.879
when it comes to software development

04:00.879 --> 04:02.640
and also free software

04:02.640 --> 04:04.159
and open source tools.

04:04.159 --> 04:05.840
So as we go through this talk,

04:05.840 --> 04:07.200
keep these questions in mind

04:07.200 --> 04:07.760
as we talk about 

04:07.760 --> 04:09.680
some of the finer points on all of this,

04:09.680 --> 04:11.280
and see whether you think 

04:11.280 --> 04:13.680
that popularity really correlates

04:13.680 --> 00:04:15.679
with these things.

04:15.680 --> 04:17.919
So first of all, how do we measure

04:17.919 --> 04:20.720
popularity? What information do we have

04:20.720 --> 04:21.600
to actually determine 

04:21.600 --> 04:23.360
which editors are popular,

04:23.360 --> 04:25.199
and whether they're gaining or losing

04:25.199 --> 04:26.880
popularity? So I've got a few, 

04:26.880 --> 04:27.759
or a couple places here 

04:27.759 --> 04:29.120
that we can look at 

04:29.120 --> 04:30.560
to judge the popularity 

04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.399
of various editors.

04:32.400 --> 04:33.840
First of all, Google Trends.

04:33.840 --> 04:35.199
Google actually gives us the ability

04:35.199 --> 04:37.199
to track and compare search volume 

04:37.199 --> 04:39.040
for particular terms and topics 

04:39.040 --> 04:41.759
over time. So if you wanted to know 

04:41.759 --> 04:43.040
how often someone was searching

04:43.040 --> 04:44.800
about Emacs, maybe to try to find help

04:44.800 --> 04:46.479
for something, or look for documentation,

04:46.479 --> 04:48.800
or maybe look for blog posts, etc., 

04:48.800 --> 04:49.919
you can look at Google Trends

04:49.919 --> 04:51.600
to see how often people are searching 

04:51.600 --> 04:53.440
for Emacs over time.

04:53.440 --> 04:55.199
One useful ability is that we can

04:55.199 --> 04:57.360
compare how much people are searching

04:57.360 --> 04:58.720
across various different topics 

04:58.720 --> 05:00.000
and see a graph, which is 

05:00.000 --> 05:01.680
what i'm going to show you right now.

05:01.680 --> 05:04.000
This graph shows you the search volume

05:04.000 --> 05:06.320
for Emacs compared to Vim, Atom,

05:06.320 --> 05:08.800
Sublime Text, and Visual Studio Code

05:08.800 --> 05:11.120
from 2004 to the present

05:11.120 --> 05:12.880
worldwide, so all across the world

05:12.880 --> 05:14.479
where searches are happening. 

05:14.479 --> 05:16.240
You can see that in 2004, 

05:16.240 --> 05:18.479
Emacs is the reigning king supreme

05:18.479 --> 05:21.039
where you have the most search terms

05:21.039 --> 05:22.720
or searches happening on emacs

05:22.720 --> 05:25.199
at that time. Also, Vim is quite high

05:25.199 --> 05:26.960
on this list as well.

05:26.960 --> 05:28.560
Let's see. Sublime Text is a bit lower

05:28.560 --> 05:31.120
in the list, but it's in third place.

05:31.120 --> 05:32.080
Nope. Yep. That's right.

05:32.080 --> 05:34.880
Then atom is quite low, but I think that

05:34.880 --> 05:36.320
Atom didn't exist yet,

05:36.320 --> 05:37.759
so maybe at that point, you know, 

05:37.759 --> 05:39.120
this is probably something else. 

05:39.120 --> 05:41.360
Google is just getting random data.

05:41.360 --> 05:42.880
And then Visual Studio Code

05:42.880 --> 05:43.919
also didn't exist,

05:43.919 --> 05:45.039
so probably this is like 

05:45.039 --> 05:46.479
Visual Studio searches,

05:46.479 --> 05:48.000
but then as you go across the years,

05:48.000 --> 05:48.960
you see that gradually, 

05:48.960 --> 05:52.160
Emacs popularity appears to be declining.

05:52.160 --> 05:54.639
As does Vim, but not quite so much. 

05:54.639 --> 05:56.560
And then over time, Sublime Text

05:56.560 --> 05:57.520
becomes more popular,

05:57.520 --> 05:59.280
and then VS Code in more recent years

05:59.280 --> 06:00.319
becomes very popular 

06:00.319 --> 06:02.400
compared to everything else.

06:02.400 --> 06:04.479
So it looks like Emacs 

06:04.479 --> 06:06.960
has declined significantly in popularity,

06:06.960 --> 06:09.600
while the other editors have taken over.

06:09.600 --> 06:11.360
But is the search volume really 

06:11.360 --> 06:12.800
the only important factor 

06:12.800 --> 06:14.800
that indicates popularity or health

06:14.800 --> 06:16.080
of a given editor? 

06:16.080 --> 00:06:18.318
That still remains to be seen.

06:18.319 --> 06:19.680
We can also take a look 

06:19.680 --> 06:22.400
at the yearly survey 

06:22.400 --> 06:24.602
that the website Stack Overflow puts out

06:24.602 --> 06:26.533
asking developers about the tools

06:26.533 --> 06:27.360
that they use to find out 

06:27.360 --> 06:28.720
which ones are being used 

06:28.720 --> 06:29.759
most frequently and that are 

06:29.759 --> 06:31.919
gaining popularity over time.

06:31.919 --> 06:33.680
So there is a great blog post 

06:33.680 --> 06:35.039
by someone named Roben Kleene, 

06:35.039 --> 06:37.039
who synthesizes some 

06:37.039 --> 06:37.840
of this data together,

06:37.840 --> 06:39.120
specifically about editors,

06:39.120 --> 06:40.240
and provides us with a graph

06:40.240 --> 06:41.680
that we can take a look at

06:41.680 --> 06:43.440
that compares the popularity 

06:43.440 --> 06:44.639
of particular editors

06:44.639 --> 06:46.560
in the last maybe four or five years,

06:46.560 --> 06:49.199
at least 2015 to 2019,

06:49.199 --> 06:50.560
based on the responses 

06:50.560 --> 06:52.560
to the Stack Overflow survey.

06:52.560 --> 06:54.479
In this case we see that 

06:54.479 --> 06:56.560
Emacs is the light blue line,

06:56.560 --> 06:59.440
and it sort of stays in maybe, let's see,

06:59.440 --> 07:00.960
maybe third place in the beginning,

07:00.960 --> 07:02.000
and then fifth place, 

07:02.000 --> 07:03.520
and basically just stays in fifth place

07:03.520 --> 07:05.039
the whole time, compared to things like

07:05.039 --> 07:07.120
Atom, Sublime Text, and VS Code.

07:07.120 --> 07:08.560
As we saw before, the VS Code

07:08.560 --> 07:10.960
just sort of ramps up at the end.

07:10.960 --> 07:13.199
Now, this is another thing 

07:13.199 --> 07:14.560
that basically is showing us

07:14.560 --> 07:17.039
similarly to the Google Trends

07:17.039 --> 07:19.280
that Emacs's popularity is not quite

07:19.280 --> 07:21.840
as much as other editors out there.

07:21.840 --> 07:23.840
You can also look at the 2021 results

07:23.840 --> 07:26.160
of the Stack Overflow survey,

07:26.160 --> 07:27.199
which I'll show you now,

07:27.199 --> 07:30.319
which shows Emacs in 16th place.

07:30.319 --> 07:31.680
Let's see. If we look here,

07:31.680 --> 07:32.960
we see Visual Studio Code

07:32.960 --> 07:34.400
is the most popular, then we have 

07:34.400 --> 07:36.800
a whole bunch of other well-known editors.

07:36.800 --> 07:37.840
Some are kind of surprising, 

07:37.840 --> 07:40.400
like Notepad++ is quite high up there,

07:40.400 --> 07:42.080
but then we have Emacs here

07:42.080 --> 07:43.199
coming right in behind

07:43.199 --> 07:44.879
PhpStorm and NetBeans,

07:44.879 --> 07:46.400
which is pretty funny to me. 

07:46.400 --> 07:48.879
But it just goes to show you 

07:48.879 --> 07:54.000
that the Emacs community is smaller

07:54.000 --> 07:55.599
than what you might consider 

07:55.599 --> 07:56.960
for other editors, or at least

07:56.960 --> 07:58.800
the Emacs user base, maybe. 

07:58.800 --> 07:59.440
Maybe it's just the people

07:59.440 --> 08:00.800
who actually respond to the survey. 

08:00.800 --> 08:02.080
You can't really tell for sure

08:02.080 --> 08:03.759
because all this data is coming from

08:03.759 --> 08:05.039
a self-selected group of people 

08:05.039 --> 08:06.720
who have responded to the survey. 

08:06.720 --> 08:08.879
So I think what... Basically, 

08:08.879 --> 08:10.560
what I'm trying to say is that

08:10.560 --> 08:12.080
if you look at all these things,

08:12.080 --> 08:14.080
you would probably get the perception

08:14.080 --> 08:15.919
that Emacs is dead

08:15.919 --> 08:17.199
and that maybe nobody really 

08:17.199 --> 08:18.240
uses the editor anymore,

08:18.240 --> 00:08:19.999
or that it's on its way out.

08:20.000 --> 08:21.599
However, I think there's another way 

08:21.599 --> 08:24.879
to look at the health or popularity 

08:24.879 --> 08:27.280
of Emacs (or any other editor, really),

08:27.280 --> 08:28.240
and that is to judge 

08:28.240 --> 08:29.520
the popularity and health

08:29.520 --> 08:30.240
by taking a look 

08:30.240 --> 08:32.080
at the community activity

08:32.080 --> 08:33.680
in places such as Reddit,

08:33.680 --> 08:35.760
or maybe on Discord servers, 

08:35.760 --> 08:38.880
Slack servers, IRC channels, 

08:38.880 --> 08:40.000
mailing lists, particularly

08:40.000 --> 08:41.120
on emacs-devel, 

08:41.120 --> 08:42.640
where all of the conversation

08:42.640 --> 08:45.120
about the development of Emacs happens.

08:45.120 --> 08:46.640
Blogs. There's quite a lot of people

08:46.640 --> 08:47.519
in the Emacs community 

08:47.519 --> 08:48.959
writing blog posts. 

08:48.959 --> 08:50.640
There's quite a few YouTube channels now

08:50.640 --> 08:52.399
making content about Emacs

08:52.399 --> 08:53.839
pretty frequently, and then

08:53.839 --> 08:56.880
conferences like this one, EmacsConf.

08:56.880 --> 08:58.399
If you've spent any time

08:58.399 --> 08:59.600
in any of these places recently,

08:59.600 --> 09:00.640
did you actually get the sense 

09:00.640 --> 09:03.440
that Emacs community lacks activity?

09:03.440 --> 09:04.800
I personally don't. 

09:04.800 --> 09:06.560
I see quite a lot of activity on Reddit,

09:06.560 --> 09:07.360
I see a lot of activity 

09:07.360 --> 09:08.320
in various other places,

09:08.320 --> 09:11.040
even my own chats that I've created.

09:11.040 --> 09:12.480
Lots of people talking about Emacs

09:12.480 --> 09:16.320
every day. But this is harder to measure,

09:16.320 --> 09:18.160
because you would have to go count 

09:18.160 --> 09:21.279
all of the mailing list emails

09:21.279 --> 09:22.560
compared to other editors,

09:22.560 --> 09:23.760
or maybe like the Reddit posts

09:23.760 --> 09:24.959
compared to other editors. 

09:24.959 --> 09:26.880
We could do that, but really,

09:26.880 --> 09:27.839
the more important thing 

09:27.839 --> 09:29.920
is to just go experience the community

09:29.920 --> 09:31.279
by going to one of these places

09:31.279 --> 09:33.360
and take a look at what's going on. 

09:33.360 --> 09:34.560
You can get a really good sense of that

09:34.560 --> 09:37.760
by checking out Sacha Chua's Emacs News

09:37.760 --> 09:39.120
roll-up blog posts

09:39.120 --> 09:40.399
that come out every week. 

09:40.399 --> 09:42.000
It's a very good distillation of things

09:42.000 --> 09:42.560
that are happening 

09:42.560 --> 09:43.920
in the Emacs community.

09:43.920 --> 09:48.080
If you look at those things 

09:48.080 --> 09:49.040
and look at all that,

09:49.040 --> 09:50.640
you can tell that there is actually

09:50.640 --> 09:51.360
something happening 

09:51.360 --> 09:52.240
in the Emacs community 

09:52.240 --> 09:54.000
that is more than what you see

09:54.000 --> 09:55.680
in the numbers on Google Trends

09:55.680 --> 09:58.080
and on Stack Overflow.

09:58.080 --> 09:59.200
Another interesting point 

09:59.200 --> 10:00.480
that doesn't really fit into all this,

10:00.480 --> 10:01.440
but if you want to look 

10:01.440 --> 10:02.640
at the actual data 

10:02.640 --> 10:03.920
from the Emacs community 

10:03.920 --> 10:06.160
about how the community uses Emacs,

10:06.160 --> 10:06.880
check out the results 

10:06.880 --> 10:08.480
of the 2020 Emacs survey. 

10:08.480 --> 10:09.040
I'm sure there's going to be 

10:09.040 --> 10:11.760
another Emacs survey at some point soon,

10:11.760 --> 10:13.120
as well, but that will give you 

10:13.120 --> 10:14.480
some insight into what's happening 

10:14.480 --> 10:16.000
within the community itself. 

10:16.000 --> 10:16.399
You can see that 

10:16.399 --> 10:17.600
there's quite a lot of activity 

10:17.600 --> 10:19.839
and a lot of different use cases for Emacs

10:19.839 --> 00:10:23.199
and types of people who are using Emacs.

10:23.200 --> 10:24.000
Let's talk about 

10:24.000 --> 10:26.079
how editors lose popularity.

10:26.079 --> 10:26.880
So people are worried 

10:26.880 --> 10:29.360
that Emacs is going to lose popularity.

10:29.360 --> 10:31.440
What do they worry is going to happen

10:31.440 --> 10:34.000
if that happens?

10:37.040 --> 00:10:38.319
Or how actually could it happen?

10:38.320 --> 10:39.680
So maybe a new editor 

10:39.680 --> 10:41.839
with better features appears. 

10:41.839 --> 10:43.440
So one theory for why users 

10:43.440 --> 10:45.920
left TextMate for Sublime Text...

10:45.920 --> 10:46.880
If you don't know about TextMate,

10:46.880 --> 10:49.600
it was a very popular editor on macOS

10:49.600 --> 10:52.160
back probably in the Ruby on Rails craze

10:52.160 --> 10:54.079
time frame, maybe like the mid-2000s,

10:54.079 --> 10:57.200
2005 or so. Then eventually Sublime Text

10:57.200 --> 10:59.519
came along, and it had 

10:59.519 --> 11:01.360
a better extensibility API

11:01.360 --> 11:03.200
and really good performance.

11:03.200 --> 11:05.200
It also was able to use 

11:05.200 --> 11:07.040
some of the same stuff from TextMate,

11:07.040 --> 11:08.720
like these syntax highlighting grammars

11:08.720 --> 11:11.040
and the snippet definitions, etc. 

11:11.040 --> 11:12.240
So you had TextMate

11:12.240 --> 11:13.519
which was a well-loved editor, 

11:13.519 --> 11:15.200
but then a new editor called Sublime Text

11:15.200 --> 11:17.200
came along with better functionality, 

11:17.200 --> 11:18.880
and people started switching over to it

11:18.880 --> 11:20.160
because it could do more things

11:20.160 --> 11:21.680
and the user had more ability 

11:21.680 --> 11:24.399
to add functionality to it.

11:24.399 --> 11:26.880
Also, VS Code came along

11:26.880 --> 11:27.920
and used a similar model 

11:27.920 --> 11:29.120
to the Atom editor,

11:29.120 --> 11:31.360
basically being a web-based editor

11:31.360 --> 11:32.480
using Electron,

11:32.480 --> 11:34.640
but it greatly improved upon performance

11:34.640 --> 11:36.640
and IDE tooling ecosystem.

11:36.640 --> 11:38.640
For people getting real work done 

11:38.640 --> 11:39.519
with large projects,

11:39.519 --> 11:41.120
you need to have things like IntelliSense,

11:41.120 --> 11:42.800
and being able to find definitions 

11:42.800 --> 11:45.839
of functions or classes that are defined.

11:45.839 --> 11:47.040
So you have a new editor 

11:47.040 --> 11:47.519
that comes along 

11:47.519 --> 11:49.440
that has basically better functionality

11:49.440 --> 11:51.279
than the one that was there before.

11:51.279 --> 11:52.399
But the thing is,

11:52.399 --> 11:53.760
if you have a new editor that comes along

11:53.760 --> 11:54.720
with better functionality,

11:54.720 --> 11:57.120
it still has to be at least as good as

11:57.120 --> 11:58.800
or better than the previous editor

11:58.800 --> 12:00.000
for people to stick with it. 

12:00.000 --> 12:02.480
So it's a very tall order 

12:02.480 --> 12:03.680
for someone to say

12:03.680 --> 12:05.200
there's going to be some editor

12:05.200 --> 12:05.839
that will come along 

12:05.839 --> 12:07.040
that would be better than Emacs 

12:07.040 --> 12:08.240
on every dimension,

12:08.240 --> 12:09.680
because there are some unique dimensions

12:09.680 --> 12:11.360
that are hard to beat 

12:11.360 --> 12:14.160
in an editor like Emacs.

12:14.160 --> 12:15.920
Lack of sufficient maintenance. 

12:15.920 --> 12:16.560
That's one thing 

12:16.560 --> 12:17.600
that could possibly happen

12:17.600 --> 12:19.279
if an editor loses popularity.

12:19.279 --> 12:20.687
So maybe sometimes... 

12:20.687 --> 12:22.480
Sorry, that's something 

12:22.480 --> 12:23.440
that can cause a lack, 

12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.679
a loss of popularity. 

12:25.680 --> 12:26.959
Sometimes the development team

12:26.959 --> 12:28.320
for an editor either moves on

12:28.320 --> 12:29.279
or maybe switches focus 

12:29.279 --> 12:30.720
to a different project. 

12:30.720 --> 12:32.079
When this happens, the development 

12:32.079 --> 12:33.360
of the editor can stagnate,

12:33.360 --> 12:36.240
giving the impression that it's dead.

12:37.279 --> 12:38.160
You can see this happening 

12:38.160 --> 12:40.720
a lot of times on repositories 

12:40.720 --> 12:41.920
for open source projects,

12:41.920 --> 12:43.440
where if someone doesn't make any commits

12:43.440 --> 12:44.639
or adding new features for a while,

12:44.639 --> 12:45.839
people just automatically assume

12:45.839 --> 12:46.880
that the thing is dead,

12:46.880 --> 12:48.399
even if it's in a very stable state

12:48.399 --> 12:49.920
and doesn't really need any improvements

12:49.920 --> 12:53.680
to be made. This is something 

12:53.680 --> 12:55.360
that can happen over time. 

12:55.360 --> 12:56.720
The developers of Sublime Text

12:56.720 --> 12:57.920
sometimes give the impression 

12:57.920 --> 12:59.519
that the editor isn't being maintained

12:59.519 --> 13:02.000
because of long breaks between updates,

13:02.000 --> 13:03.360
and this gives people...

13:03.360 --> 13:04.560
If you go search for 

13:04.560 --> 13:05.440
"Is Sublime Text dead?", 

13:05.440 --> 13:06.800
you'll see posts about this

13:07.519 --> 13:08.240
every couple years, 

13:08.240 --> 13:09.120
where people are wondering 

13:09.120 --> 13:10.320
what's happening with Sublime Text,

13:10.320 --> 13:12.320
when in reality, there's actually

13:12.320 --> 13:15.120
development happening on this project,

13:15.120 --> 13:18.160
and paid users are getting these updates

13:18.160 --> 13:19.279
because they've paid,

13:19.279 --> 13:20.639
but the product is not open source.

13:20.639 --> 13:21.600
You have no visibility 

13:21.600 --> 13:22.399
into the development.

13:22.399 --> 13:24.639
So if people have the perception

13:24.639 --> 13:26.160
that the editor is not being maintained,

13:26.160 --> 13:26.880
then there's going to be 

13:26.880 --> 13:28.079
rumors getting started, 

13:28.079 --> 13:29.200
and that could cause 

13:29.200 --> 13:30.959
the mentality of people to shift

13:30.959 --> 13:32.639
and try to move on to other editors

13:32.639 --> 13:34.240
because they perceive them to be

13:34.240 --> 13:36.399
more well-maintained or more active.

13:36.399 --> 13:37.920
Another problem can be that there are

13:37.920 --> 13:39.839
major bugs that persist over a long time

13:39.839 --> 13:41.040
that aren't being fixed 

13:41.040 --> 13:42.560
while the maintainers are focusing on 

13:42.560 --> 13:44.639
some other efforts in the project,

13:44.639 --> 13:46.000
and this could hurt sentiment 

13:46.000 --> 13:48.160
in the community and cause a backlash

13:48.160 --> 13:49.120
leading to an exodus.

13:49.120 --> 13:51.120
So if you have really bad bugs

13:51.120 --> 13:51.600
and people think 

13:51.600 --> 13:52.560
that you're not really concerned

13:52.560 --> 13:53.519
about fixing them, 

13:53.519 --> 13:54.399
then that could be something 

13:54.399 --> 13:55.360
that would cause an editor 

13:55.360 --> 13:56.399
to lose popularity 

13:56.399 --> 13:58.000
as people move on to find something else

13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.039
that appears to be more stable.

14:01.040 --> 14:03.199
Lastly, sometimes all it takes is 

14:03.199 --> 14:04.480
for a new programming language 

14:04.480 --> 14:05.279
to become popular 

14:05.279 --> 14:06.880
or for an influential person to say 

14:06.880 --> 14:08.720
that they switched to a different editor,

14:08.720 --> 14:14.560
because people are capable of being led

14:14.560 --> 14:16.720
by someone else who is influential,

14:16.720 --> 14:18.320
so sometimes it's just... 

14:18.320 --> 14:20.240
All it takes is someone to say, you know,

14:20.240 --> 14:22.240
I'm not going to use this editor any more,

14:22.240 --> 14:24.000
and other people will follow. 

14:24.000 --> 14:26.240
But oftentimes, it's not just about

14:26.240 --> 14:27.199
the fashion changing,

14:27.199 --> 14:28.560
it's also there's other problems 

14:28.560 --> 14:29.040
that are happening.

14:29.040 --> 14:29.680
Some of these other things 

14:29.680 --> 14:30.959
that I mentioned before 

14:30.959 --> 14:32.160
that could be contributing 

14:32.160 --> 14:33.839
to this overall sentiment

14:33.839 --> 00:14:36.958
that caused people to move on.

14:36.959 --> 14:38.000
So then what happens 

14:38.000 --> 14:40.000
when an editor loses popularity? 

14:40.000 --> 14:40.800
If people are worried 

14:40.800 --> 14:43.120
that Emacs is going to lose popularity,

14:43.120 --> 14:44.880
what happens if it doesn't gain more? 

14:44.880 --> 14:47.839
So what are the possible consequences?

14:47.839 --> 14:49.120
Well, maybe core maintainers 

14:49.120 --> 14:50.399
will gradually leave the project

14:50.399 --> 14:52.160
with nobody to replace them. I mean,

14:52.160 --> 14:53.839
if you have a project like Emacs

14:53.839 --> 14:57.199
where there's a core

14:57.199 --> 14:58.240
that's written in a language 

14:58.240 --> 14:59.600
that's different than the language 

14:59.600 --> 15:01.040
everybody uses to extend it,

15:01.040 --> 15:02.240
then maybe it's risky 

15:02.240 --> 15:03.440
to have people leave the project 

15:03.440 --> 15:04.800
because you don't have other people 

15:04.800 --> 15:06.560
to come along who can help maintain it

15:06.560 --> 15:10.240
and to carry on the knowledge of the core.

15:10.240 --> 15:11.519
Also, maybe no new features 

15:11.519 --> 15:13.279
are being added to stay competitive 

15:13.279 --> 15:14.800
with other editors. 

15:14.800 --> 15:15.920
So this is one of these things 

15:15.920 --> 15:17.120
where people kind of feel like

15:17.120 --> 15:18.800
there's a feature mill, where you know

15:18.800 --> 15:20.880
if new features are coming online

15:20.880 --> 15:21.680
in other editors,

15:21.680 --> 15:23.279
maybe your editor needs to catch up.

15:23.279 --> 15:24.160
Well, I don't really think that

15:24.160 --> 15:25.279
that's necessarily needed,

15:25.279 --> 15:28.160
but if there are new paradigms

15:28.160 --> 15:29.839
or usage patterns or workflows

15:29.839 --> 15:32.320
that are becoming... 

15:32.320 --> 15:33.759
I guess you could say mainstream,

15:33.759 --> 15:34.800
sometimes it does make sense 

15:34.800 --> 15:37.199
for an editor to be able to adopt these,

15:37.199 --> 15:37.759
but if you have 

15:37.759 --> 15:39.519
a sufficiently extendable editor, 

15:39.519 --> 15:41.440
then oftentimes, you don't really need to

15:41.440 --> 15:42.079
do anything other than 

15:42.079 --> 15:44.480
just write a new package.

15:44.480 --> 15:46.160
Critical bugs that never get fixed...

15:46.160 --> 15:48.240
I mean, if people start to drift off 

15:48.240 --> 15:49.839
from the project, it is much more likely

15:49.839 --> 15:52.720
that bad bugs won't get fixed over time.

15:52.720 --> 15:54.079
Less community interest in creating 

15:54.079 --> 15:55.199
and maintaining packages. 

15:55.199 --> 15:56.320
There's another possibility 

15:56.320 --> 15:57.519
if people don't feel like

15:57.519 --> 15:58.880
it's worth their time anymore

15:58.880 --> 16:00.079
because not many people 

16:00.079 --> 16:00.880
are using an editor, 

16:00.880 --> 16:02.480
maybe they'll have more users 

16:02.480 --> 16:03.279
or more interaction 

16:03.279 --> 16:04.959
if they go write a similar package 

16:04.959 --> 16:07.440
for a different editor.

16:07.440 --> 16:10.079
Less blog posts, videos, content. 

16:10.079 --> 16:11.519
Basically, like, if people feel 

16:11.519 --> 16:12.480
that it's not worth their time 

16:12.480 --> 16:13.839
to make content about the editor either,

16:13.839 --> 16:15.360
or if you're just not interested any more,

16:15.360 --> 16:17.040
then those things will dry up.

16:17.040 --> 16:18.639
And also one thing that is possible, 

16:18.639 --> 16:19.839
but probably not very likely, 

16:19.839 --> 16:21.839
is that the program may not be 

16:21.839 --> 16:24.000
packaged any more in Linux distributions

16:24.000 --> 16:25.680
or for other operating systems. 

16:25.680 --> 16:27.519
So if it's not worth someone to package it,

16:27.519 --> 16:29.040
or they just sort of lose interest 

16:29.040 --> 16:31.360
in the editor, then maybe those things

16:31.360 --> 16:32.320
sort of drift away 

16:32.320 --> 16:33.920
and you can't even install it any more 

16:33.920 --> 16:35.360
in many places.

16:35.360 --> 16:36.399
But I feel that these things 

16:36.399 --> 16:37.279
would only really happen 

16:37.279 --> 16:39.279
if there was already other major issues

16:39.279 --> 16:41.920
in the dev team or in the community,

16:41.920 --> 16:44.320
like maybe a high profile schism 

16:44.320 --> 16:45.199
in the maintainer team,

16:45.199 --> 16:47.519
sort of like what we saw with GNU Emacs

16:47.519 --> 16:49.759
versus XEmacs, because you have 

16:49.759 --> 16:50.959
two competing versions 

16:50.959 --> 16:52.160
of the same idea 

16:52.160 --> 16:53.600
with different implementations,

16:53.600 --> 16:54.800
and then over time,

16:54.800 --> 16:55.920
one of them may fade out

16:55.920 --> 16:57.839
because people just lose interest 

16:57.839 --> 17:00.800
and maybe something like GNU Emacs

17:00.800 --> 17:02.399
gradually catches up and surpasses it

17:02.399 --> 17:04.720
in functionality. So these things

17:04.720 --> 17:07.520
can happen, but it's not really 

17:07.520 --> 00:17:10.239
as likely as people would think, I think.

17:10.240 --> 17:12.959
So how is Emacs going to survive

17:12.959 --> 17:15.280
despite popularity? I feel that 

17:15.280 --> 17:16.640
there are a few important 

17:16.640 --> 17:17.679
and unique factors 

17:17.679 --> 00:17:20.159
that are going to contribute to this.

17:20.160 --> 17:21.520
First of all, Emacs is

17:21.520 --> 17:22.720
more deeply hackable 

17:22.720 --> 17:24.959
than almost all other editors.

17:24.959 --> 17:26.000
I'm couching that a bit,

17:26.000 --> 17:26.880
but really it is

17:26.880 --> 17:28.000
basically more extensible 

17:28.000 --> 17:28.960
than any other editor. 

17:28.960 --> 17:29.679
I haven't seen one 

17:29.679 --> 17:31.440
that's more extensible than Emacs so far,

17:31.440 --> 17:32.000
and that's because 

17:32.000 --> 17:34.160
Emacs was designed for this.

17:34.160 --> 17:35.360
The whole point of Emacs

17:35.360 --> 17:36.960
is that you should be able to go in

17:36.960 --> 17:38.320
and customize your workflow,

17:38.320 --> 17:39.600
and customize the editor to do

17:39.600 --> 17:41.039
exactly what you want it to do. 

17:41.039 --> 17:44.080
It's this whole idea of user freedom.

17:44.080 --> 17:46.320
You're not letting the editor designer

17:46.320 --> 17:47.120
tell you what to do,

17:47.120 --> 17:48.880
you're telling the editor what to do

17:48.880 --> 17:50.559
at every step of the way.

17:50.559 --> 17:53.440
Also, an Emacs user can grow their skills

17:53.440 --> 17:55.039
from small configuration tweaks,

17:55.039 --> 17:56.240
just basically setting variables 

17:56.240 --> 17:57.280
and whatnot, to writing 

17:57.280 --> 17:58.960
their own packages over time,

17:58.960 --> 17:59.600
and then eventually 

17:59.600 --> 18:01.280
to contributing to Emacs itself-- 

18:01.280 --> 18:02.320
the same skill set, 

18:02.320 --> 18:03.360
because the majority 

18:03.360 --> 18:04.640
of the functionality of the editor

18:04.640 --> 18:06.160
is written with the same language

18:06.160 --> 18:07.600
that you use to configure it.

18:07.600 --> 18:09.280
So unlike other editors,

18:09.280 --> 18:10.960
where you have... 

18:10.960 --> 18:12.960
the way that you write extensions 

18:12.960 --> 18:13.440
for the editor,

18:13.440 --> 18:14.960
that has a specific API,

18:14.960 --> 18:16.400
but if you go contribute to the core,

18:16.400 --> 18:18.160
the code base is completely different.

18:18.160 --> 18:19.280
It's different with Emacs 

18:19.280 --> 18:22.640
because you have basically the same APIs,

18:22.640 --> 18:24.320
the same code and same everything

18:24.320 --> 18:26.080
that you use to write a package

18:26.080 --> 18:28.160
versus writing actual code 

18:28.160 --> 18:29.600
for functionality for the editor.

18:29.600 --> 18:30.960
Now obviously, there's the C layer

18:30.960 --> 18:32.000
that is different, 

18:32.000 --> 18:34.000
but I think a lot of the actual packages

18:34.000 --> 18:35.280
and functionality in Emacs 

18:35.280 --> 18:36.640
are at the Emacs Lisp layer.

18:36.640 --> 18:38.797
So what this means is that

18:38.797 --> 18:41.120
Emacs configuration hackers 

18:41.120 --> 18:42.000
and package authors 

18:42.000 --> 18:43.200
are prime candidates 

18:43.200 --> 18:44.880
for eventually becoming contributors 

18:44.880 --> 18:46.960
to Emacs itself. You see this play out 

18:46.960 --> 18:48.559
a lot of times in Emacs community,

18:48.559 --> 18:49.760
where someone writes 

18:49.760 --> 18:51.039
some really good packages,

18:51.039 --> 18:52.240
and either parts of those 

18:52.240 --> 18:53.440
get merged into Emacs

18:53.440 --> 18:55.520
or that person maybe makes contributions

18:55.520 --> 18:57.280
to Emacs to add new functionality

18:57.280 --> 18:59.360
that their own packages can use,

18:59.360 --> 19:01.679
or just to improve Emacs as a whole.

19:01.679 --> 19:03.679
So there's much more chance

19:03.679 --> 19:04.880
that people who are involved 

19:04.880 --> 19:06.160
in the community of Emacs

19:06.160 --> 19:07.440
can actually become contributors 

19:07.440 --> 19:08.480
to the project itself. 

19:08.480 --> 19:09.200
I think that's going to be

19:09.200 --> 19:11.600
very important for its health.

19:11.600 --> 19:13.200
Also, you don't need to add functionality

19:13.200 --> 19:14.080
to Emacs core 

19:14.080 --> 19:16.160
to make the editor itself better. 

19:16.160 --> 19:17.120
Package authors are on

19:17.120 --> 19:18.480
an equal playing field

19:18.480 --> 19:19.679
as the built-in functionality,

19:19.679 --> 19:21.008
for the same reason what I said before. 

19:21.008 --> 19:22.640
Everything's written with Emacs Lisp,

19:22.640 --> 19:24.160
or I guess a lot of the functionality

19:24.160 --> 19:26.000
is written with Emacs Lisp. 

19:26.000 --> 19:28.720
Since there's a lot of ways to hook into

19:28.720 --> 19:30.720
or replace functionality in Emacs,

19:30.720 --> 19:33.280
you can do a lot of deep customizations

19:33.280 --> 19:35.360
to Emacs itself to make it better 

19:35.360 --> 19:37.600
in ways that aren't really...

19:37.600 --> 19:39.760
The core developers don't need to

19:39.760 --> 19:40.960
add new things for you to do that.

19:40.960 --> 19:42.320
You can just do it if you want to.

19:42.320 --> 19:44.640
So that gives Emacs more of

19:44.640 --> 19:45.840
a platform feel

19:45.840 --> 19:47.440
rather than just being an editor 

19:47.440 --> 00:19:51.439
that can't really be changed very much.

19:51.440 --> 19:53.440
Also, Emacs has a strong community 

19:53.440 --> 19:56.080
of highly-skilled packaged authors

19:56.080 --> 19:58.000
and the high-quality packages 

19:58.000 --> 19:59.919
that they create make it far better

19:59.919 --> 20:01.679
and more uniquely valuable 

20:01.679 --> 20:02.960
than many other editors.

20:02.960 --> 20:04.960
Specifically, things like Org mode, 

20:04.960 --> 20:06.240
Magit, Org-roam, 

20:06.240 --> 20:07.039
and a lot of other things 

20:07.039 --> 20:08.000
that we've talked about 

20:08.000 --> 20:10.000
on the System Crafters channel over time,

20:10.000 --> 20:11.136
and the hundreds of other

20:11.136 --> 20:12.480
workflow-improving packages 

20:12.480 --> 20:14.720
that have been created over the years.

20:14.720 --> 20:18.559
So all these things really make Emacs

20:18.559 --> 20:20.159
a unique offering 

20:20.159 --> 20:21.679
in the space of text editors,

20:21.679 --> 20:22.640
or development tools, 

20:22.640 --> 20:24.240
or even just general 

20:24.240 --> 20:25.440
information management tools, 

20:25.440 --> 20:27.120
or desktop environments, 

20:27.120 --> 20:28.960
if you want to call it that.

20:28.960 --> 20:31.280
So the people who are involved

20:31.280 --> 20:32.159
in making these things 

20:32.159 --> 20:33.600
make Emacs far better than it could be

20:33.600 --> 20:35.039
just by itself,

20:35.039 --> 20:37.360
and this thriving ecosystem helps Emacs

20:37.360 --> 20:39.120
to continually feel fresh, 

20:39.120 --> 20:40.320
regardless of what's happening 

20:40.320 --> 20:41.600
in core Emacs development,

20:41.600 --> 20:43.840
because packages can do so much

20:43.840 --> 20:45.280
and because people can come along

20:45.280 --> 20:46.640
and propose sort of 

20:46.640 --> 20:47.760
a new way of doing things

20:47.760 --> 20:49.360
and other people can start using it. 

20:49.360 --> 20:51.120
Emacs itself doesn't have to be

20:51.120 --> 20:52.400
beholden to just what

20:52.400 --> 20:53.840
the core developers do. 

20:53.840 --> 20:55.280
The community can also play 

20:55.280 --> 20:57.760
a major role in making Emacs feel fresh

20:57.760 --> 20:59.919
and be modernized over time.

20:59.919 --> 21:01.360
Just take a look at what Doom Emacs

21:01.360 --> 21:03.919
is doing to give Emacs a better face,

21:03.919 --> 21:04.960
and Spacemacs as well. 

21:04.960 --> 21:06.240
Those things are very good 

21:06.240 --> 21:08.000
for making Emacs more palatable

21:08.000 --> 21:09.440
to the general public,

21:09.440 --> 21:11.120
because you have a much better experience

21:11.120 --> 21:12.240
out of the box, and a lot of things

21:12.240 --> 21:12.880
have been polished 

21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.279
for the user experience.

21:15.280 --> 21:17.200
Emacs also has a very strong

21:17.200 --> 21:18.799
user community. Lots of activity

21:18.799 --> 21:20.000
and discussion about emacs

21:20.000 --> 21:21.440
is taking place all the time

21:21.440 --> 21:22.559
in various places, 

21:22.559 --> 21:23.919
like we talked about before. 

21:23.919 --> 21:26.559
Mailing lists, IRC, Reddit, etc.

21:26.559 --> 21:28.159
If you get into Emacs

21:28.159 --> 21:28.880
and you go take part 

21:28.880 --> 21:29.840
in the Emacs community,

21:29.840 --> 21:30.640
there's always going to be

21:30.640 --> 21:32.000
somebody around who's going to want to

21:32.000 --> 21:33.520
talk about Emacs with you

21:33.520 --> 21:34.960
and answer your questions.

21:34.960 --> 21:37.120
So it's a very good thing

21:37.120 --> 21:39.039
for the health of the project 

21:39.039 --> 21:40.320
because there's a lot of people there 

21:40.320 --> 21:42.640
that are very invested in it every day 

21:42.640 --> 21:45.120
and want to see it succeed.

21:45.120 --> 21:47.039
Also, there's many community members

21:47.039 --> 21:47.840
writing articles 

21:47.840 --> 21:49.440
and making videos about Emacs,

21:49.440 --> 21:51.280
many of which are actually moving forward

21:51.280 --> 21:52.240
the state of the art 

21:52.240 --> 21:53.679
about how we use the editor,

21:53.679 --> 21:55.360
and how we use it... I mean,

21:55.360 --> 21:56.480
how many times have you seen

21:56.480 --> 21:57.520
a really great blog post 

21:57.520 --> 21:59.120
that completely blew your mind

21:59.120 --> 22:00.880
and showed you a new way

22:00.880 --> 22:02.720
to use Emacs, or a new way to think about

22:02.720 --> 22:05.120
how you use Emacs. I see stuff like that

22:05.120 --> 22:08.480
all the time, like posts by Protesilaos, 

22:08.480 --> 22:10.640
or by Karthik, or by many other people

22:10.640 --> 22:12.080
who show you a new way 

22:12.080 --> 22:13.360
to look at things, and then you're, like,

22:13.360 --> 22:14.720
Wow. This... I could do things

22:14.720 --> 22:15.200
completely different 

22:15.200 --> 22:16.559
than I was doing before.

22:16.559 --> 22:17.200
This kind of stuff

22:17.200 --> 22:18.240
is extremely important 

22:18.240 --> 22:20.080
for the health of the editor

22:20.080 --> 22:22.799
going forward, because people are able to

22:22.799 --> 22:24.799
inspire others to use the editor.

22:24.799 --> 22:26.559
It's a great thing for evangelism as well.

22:26.559 --> 22:28.080
Like, if someone happens to

22:28.080 --> 22:30.080
stumble across a video or a blog post,

22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.439
they may be really inspired to use Emacs.

22:33.440 --> 22:35.280
And lastly, the Emacs maintainers

22:35.280 --> 22:36.720
and contributors really care 

22:36.720 --> 22:38.000
about the users.

22:38.000 --> 22:39.280
There are many core maintainers 

22:39.280 --> 22:40.080
who have been with the project 

22:40.080 --> 22:43.360
for 10+ years, some way longer than that.

22:43.360 --> 22:45.200
So it shows you that 

22:45.200 --> 22:46.559
the people who work on this project

22:46.559 --> 22:47.600
really care a lot, 

22:47.600 --> 22:48.640
and they're very invested 

22:48.640 --> 22:51.120
in making sure that it remains healthy 

22:51.120 --> 22:53.360
for the long term.

22:53.360 --> 22:55.440
They also really care about ensuring

22:55.440 --> 22:56.720
that Emacs continues to work well 

22:56.720 --> 22:58.159
for long-time users, 

22:58.159 --> 23:00.080
(and some people have been using it

23:00.080 --> 23:01.280
for 30 to 40 years, 

23:01.280 --> 23:02.400
which is kind of insane,

23:02.400 --> 23:03.760
if you think about it),

23:03.760 --> 23:05.679
all while gradually and sensibly

23:05.679 --> 23:07.120
enabling new scenarios 

23:07.120 --> 23:08.080
and core improvements 

23:08.080 --> 23:09.280
that benefit all of us,

23:09.280 --> 23:11.520
even the new and the old users.

23:11.520 --> 23:12.880
Keeping a piece of software

23:12.880 --> 23:13.600
running and relevant

23:13.600 --> 23:14.400
for this many years 

23:14.400 --> 23:15.440
is a huge effort, 

23:15.440 --> 23:16.799
so I'm very thankful 

23:16.799 --> 23:18.480
to the maintainers of Emacs,

23:18.480 --> 23:20.159
and I hope all of you are as well,

23:20.159 --> 23:22.799
because this is kind of an anomaly

23:22.799 --> 23:23.600
in the software field

23:23.600 --> 23:24.960
to have a piece of software 

23:24.960 --> 23:26.640
that has existed for so long,

23:26.640 --> 23:30.000
who has managed to survive 

23:30.000 --> 23:31.840
despite various different types

23:31.840 --> 23:33.280
of platform transitions, 

23:33.280 --> 23:35.280
operating transitions over the years

23:35.280 --> 23:37.360
and still thrive and be a very useful

23:37.360 --> 23:38.559
and very key piece of software 

23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.959
for a lot of people.

23:40.960 --> 23:42.320
So aren't all these things

23:42.320 --> 23:43.039
that we just talked about

23:43.039 --> 23:43.840
supposed to come 

23:43.840 --> 23:45.279
when an editor is popular?

23:45.279 --> 23:46.080
We've been talking about

23:46.080 --> 23:47.039
what is popularity, 

23:47.039 --> 23:48.720
what benefits come with popularity.

23:48.720 --> 23:50.320
So all the things I just mentioned,

23:50.320 --> 23:51.120
shouldn't that be something 

23:51.120 --> 23:52.720
that would only be for editors

23:52.720 --> 23:54.640
that are super popular? Well, I guess 

23:54.640 --> 23:56.720
the answer is maybe Emacs is actually

23:56.720 --> 23:57.840
popular enough. 

23:57.840 --> 23:58.799
That doesn't necessarily mean

23:58.799 --> 24:00.640
that we should not try to 

24:00.640 --> 24:03.600
help other people find Emacs,

24:03.600 --> 24:04.960
but I think that we should not

24:04.960 --> 24:05.760
worry so much about 

24:05.760 --> 24:06.880
the popularity of Emacs,

24:06.880 --> 24:08.480
because what we have is great,

24:08.480 --> 24:11.120
and we should just focus our time

24:11.120 --> 24:13.919
on continuing to improve the health

24:13.919 --> 24:15.520
of the community that we have

24:15.520 --> 24:17.360
and the health of the editor itself,

24:17.360 --> 24:19.440
and not worry too much about chasing

24:19.440 --> 24:20.880
whatever is happening out in the world

24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.879
at any given point.

24:22.880 --> 24:26.159
To conclude, the next time someone says

24:26.159 --> 24:27.760
we should do this thing 

24:27.760 --> 24:28.559
or this other thing

24:28.559 --> 24:30.400
to make Emacs more popular,

24:30.400 --> 24:32.240
ask them these questions.

24:32.240 --> 24:35.200
1. What does popularity mean to you?

24:35.200 --> 24:37.279
2. How do you measure it?

24:37.279 --> 24:39.440
3. What do you think Emacs is going to

24:39.440 --> 24:41.600
gain from increased popularity?

24:41.600 --> 24:43.279
So I hope that you found this talk

24:43.279 --> 24:44.159
inspiring and maybe

24:44.159 --> 24:46.320
a little bit reassuring. Thanks so much

24:46.320 --> 24:48.240
for your time, and happy hacking.

24:48.240 --> 24:50.867
We'll see ya.

24:50.867 --> 24:51.559
[captions by sachac]