path: root/2020/subtitles/emacsconf-2020--39-nongnu-elpa--questions--richard-stallman-autogen.sbv

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okay so the first question is what is an

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example of a car

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a package currently in

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a non-elpa repo that does not work well

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with Emacs

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well one of them is s dot el

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and this is what made me aware that

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there was an issue here that caused

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problems well s.e.l

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is a beautifully written package

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that appears to be very useful for

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people

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and there's just one thing wrong with it

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it gobbled up the name space

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of symbols starting with s dash

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and I was shocked to discover that

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somebody who had not coordinated with

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the Emacs developers at all

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had implemented a package using such a

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short prefix which

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isn't the right way to do things oh by

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the way the questions have moved off the

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screen this is no good I can continue

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answering this one

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but I'll be stuck when this one is over

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anyway so uh

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and I was told that there was nothing I

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could do about it

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that so many users packages were using

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swl and thus essentially using that

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definition

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of the s dash star symbols

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that any attempt to use them

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publicly or privately for anything else

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would lead to horrible problems

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and I don't like that

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I decided I wanted to do something

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a so that that wouldn't happen again

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and b to make it unhappen

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in that case well the way to make it

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unhappen in that case is with a new

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symbol renaming feature the idea is

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you rename that file to something else

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and then you define an s.e.l that

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sets up symbol renaming and then loads

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the something else

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so it actually runs the same code it

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just

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doesn't globally define the symbols

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s dash whatever but they

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appear to work for the programs that

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explicitly

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require that require sdl

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or the s package so this gets the same

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behavior for all the programs that are

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using that library

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and uh doesn't interfere

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with the global name space at all

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however to do that we need to have a

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package

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s.e.l that isn't the same

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totally a short file that's totally

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different

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plus we've got to have the file that

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normally is called

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s.e.l available but

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uh under another name well

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how are we going to do that we can't put

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this into

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into Emacs in a nice way that

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won't make the uh won't make the

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maintainer angry

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of the mate to the developer of that

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package

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but we can do it with non-gnu

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elpa we can put those two things into

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non-gnu elpa

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without any difficulty and this shows

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one of the advantages

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we can put files we can put packages

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into non-gdu elpa

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and make changes in them now in general

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we wouldn't

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go to the effort of making big changes

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that's just too much to do

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unless something's really important but

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small changes

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that help things fit in are

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easy to do and

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uh okay oh so basically the recording

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didn't get anything until now I just saw

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a note pop up this session is now being

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recorded

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I hope it's been recorded all along it

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would be a shame to

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spoil oh good okay

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okay good so uh that's one of the issues

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uh does non-gnu eopa already exist

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or is this a sort of quote plan I don't

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know why you have to

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put scare quotes around the word plan

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it's sort of in between

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it's the creation of it is started you

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will find

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that there is an archive that it's

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possible to download packages from

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and there is a repository to put them in

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but that's not the way it's really

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supposed to work

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uh this is not supposed to be like the

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new elpa where there's

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one repo for all the packages and thus

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anyone who wants to edit any of them

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anyone that we want to have edit any of

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them

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has got to have access to the whole

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thing for one thing

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some packages will make

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an arrangement with the developers

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and they'll assure us that they will

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do things as things should be done and

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then we'll

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have their repo copied automatically

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or in other cases say

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copied manually with a little checking

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every so often

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uh and then uh in

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other cases we'll need to have our own

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repo for a particular package

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but we shouldn't have a single repo for

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all the packages we should have a repo

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for each package

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so that the people working on that can

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get access to modify it

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this has to be finished setting up

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and we're still working out the

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procedures

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for instance for making the arrangements

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with the developers of a package so that

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we can

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we hope uh entrust its development to

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them and

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rely on them directly

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and there may be more that needs to be

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worked on

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oh there's so many questions

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well I hope you the third question is

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what are the benefits

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I hope that people now see the benefits

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I've described them

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uh next question is it possible to work

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with the melba team

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to integrate that into Emacs

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no because the goal doesn't make sense

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melba the way it's done does not belong

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inside Emacs in any sense well first of

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all it can't literally be

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inside Emacs we don't have copyright

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assignments for that code

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and to get it would be unfeasible

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but we're not asking for copyright

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assignments for

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non-gnu elpa so that's

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you might wonder could melpa be merged

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with non-venue elpa the problem is

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melpa doesn't modify the packages

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it's just a place to find releases of

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packages wherever they happen to be

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and they put packages in with

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only a little bit of checking

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so no we there are a lot of packages

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that are

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in melpa that we'd like to get into

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non-canoe elpa I don't know the names of

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most of them but I expect most of them

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would be fine to have but they've got to

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be looked at one by one

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there are some rules for non-glpa

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and the only way to check them is to

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check them on one package at a time

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and that's going to take effort

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now with the people who work on melba

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want to get involved

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of this that would be great

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I haven't tried asking them first we've

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got to get this thing

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set up I doubt they would want to

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but if they said yes that would be

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wonderful

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uh any thoughts of packages being

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added I'm afraid

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um

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I'm afraid any thoughts of packages

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being added as

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some url I don't know anything about but

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it talks about open source

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which means I'm very unlikely to have

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much

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in common with whatever they say about

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either licensing or

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what's right and wrong uh

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but this seems to be something about

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disregarding licenses

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altogether well that is basically

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asking to lose there are reasons

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why we developed gnu licenses to release

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software why we have criteria

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for which licenses make a program free

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software

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if the program doesn't carry a license

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or if it carries a non-free license that

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program

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is not free software now you can

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maybe get away with disregarding that

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fact uh unless

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somebody an author or publisher stops

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you

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but we're not going to take we're not

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basically going to

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disregard the question of whether the

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software we

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recommend to people really is free

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software or not

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that's basically uh

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blindfolding yourself to the legal

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situation of the software you're

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distributing

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it's a terrible idea uh if they

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disregard our licenses they will hear

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from us about it

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and if you want to contribute to the

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free world

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put free licenses on your code

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and choose good ones to get this

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information

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look at gnu.org slash licensing

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in particular slash licenses

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and one page that input that's important

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is license

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dash recommendations.html

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that's where we advise you on what

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license we would recommend you use

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depending on the circumstances

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there's also license dash list dot html

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which describes a lot of licenses and

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says which ones are free

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which ones are compatible with the new

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gpl

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it's really important to use only gpl

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compatible licenses

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so that the various programs can be

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combined together

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or linked and

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you can also get other information about

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gnu licenses

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and the reasons why they are written the

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way they are

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oh sorry I don't see the next question

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oh why do I insist on using per and

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purrs

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uh I'm not happy with using

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they which is a plural pronoun with a

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singular antecedent

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it's bad because it causes

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confusion that is completely gratuitous

0:12:24.800,0:12:33.200
many sentences become a lot of work

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to parse and understand if you

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add that ambiguity that source of him of

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regular ambiguity now

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I do not accept the demands of other

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people

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in regard to changing my grammar

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you can try to convince me but

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no one is entitled to give me orders

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about that

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or state their desires and expect

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obedience not for me and not from you

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or anyone we are all

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equally entitled to decide

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how we will speak and how we won't speak

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now I've spelled out all of these points

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in a file called stolman.org

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articles slash

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genderneutrality.html

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of course this is not a gnu project

0:13:33.760,0:13:40.800
policy

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it's my own personal ideas on the

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subject

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if any of you feels offended

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by my referring to you with a singular

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gender neutral pronoun feel free

0:14:04.320,0:14:10.720
to ex contact me privately

0:14:07.680,0:14:14.000
and explain to me your reasons

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I will pay attention to them I'll

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think about them assuming that they're

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not something I've already

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considered and decided to dismiss before

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but you must not speak to me as if I had

0:14:27.760,0:14:30.800
no business not obeying you because

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that's

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rude and it is not likely to convince me

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to change my mind

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I believe it is not actually

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of stating offense to anyone

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and the fact that somebody disagrees

0:14:50.560,0:14:59.839
with me does not mean I'm wrong

0:14:52.880,0:14:59.839
but I always can be wrong

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when you wrote that you could add a

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package to non your new elpa

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are you implying that you would add

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packages with or without package

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maintainers knowledge

0:15:11.120,0:15:18.000
of course the packages we would

0:15:15.279,0:15:19.519
we would distribute in this way are free

0:15:18.000,0:15:21.920
software

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everyone is entitled to redistribute

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them

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and everyone is also entitled to modify

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them

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and redistribute them that's part of the

0:15:29.199,0:15:35.040
meaning of free software

0:15:31.680,0:15:38.320
I have been unable to understand

0:15:35.040,0:15:42.560
how there came to be an idea

0:15:38.320,0:15:45.600
that those who redistribute packages

0:15:42.560,0:15:49.360
have some idea to be mere

0:15:45.600,0:15:54.480
some obligation to be near mirrors

0:15:49.360,0:15:58.560
and not modify things themselves

0:15:54.480,0:16:01.440
well if a package is

0:15:58.560,0:16:03.440
being maintained by developers who are

0:16:01.440,0:16:06.240
cooperating with us

0:16:03.440,0:16:07.360
we'll normally just leave it to them

0:16:06.240,0:16:10.079
after all

0:16:07.360,0:16:10.399
we have lots of other work to do they

0:16:10.079,0:16:14.000
are

0:16:10.399,0:16:15.600
clearly experts on the packages they've

0:16:14.000,0:16:18.399
developed

0:16:15.600,0:16:22.800
let's leave it to them if they make that

0:16:18.399,0:16:26.480
sort of arrangement with us but

0:16:22.800,0:16:29.120
that's up to them we can't insist that

0:16:26.480,0:16:30.720
anyone make an arrangement with us

0:16:29.120,0:16:33.279
but since those programs are free

0:16:30.720,0:16:36.639
software anyone c is

0:16:33.279,0:16:38.880
free to redistribute them and we will do

0:16:36.639,0:16:38.880
that

0:16:41.839,0:16:51.839
have you ever used vi or vim or

0:16:45.519,0:16:51.839
evil mode no

0:16:52.079,0:16:56.800
are there any plans to implement

0:16:53.920,0:17:00.720
security considerations in non-gnu

0:16:56.800,0:17:02.959
elpa uh we probably

0:17:00.720,0:17:04.959
should and this will have to be

0:17:02.959,0:17:08.559
implemented

0:17:04.959,0:17:12.000
but at the moment

0:17:08.559,0:17:13.280
developer Emacs maintainers will copy

0:17:12.000,0:17:18.160
packages

0:17:13.280,0:17:20.160
into it and so as long as they are

0:17:18.160,0:17:22.480
verifying the packages and getting the

0:17:20.160,0:17:25.199
packages from the right place

0:17:22.480,0:17:25.919
that will take care of the security once

0:17:25.199,0:17:30.160
there is

0:17:25.919,0:17:33.200
when with automatic copying in

0:17:30.160,0:17:35.200
will have to do something to

0:17:33.200,0:17:38.480
make sure that we're fetching the

0:17:35.200,0:17:38.480
packages securely

0:17:40.320,0:17:44.000
and uh some of you might be interested

0:17:43.360,0:17:46.080
in

0:17:44.000,0:17:48.000
helping to design and implement this

0:17:46.080,0:17:52.559
system

0:17:48.000,0:17:56.720
uh what distro do I use

0:17:52.559,0:17:58.000
uh well which distro of gnu slash linux

0:17:56.720,0:18:01.840
do I use

0:17:58.000,0:18:01.840
I use tree scale

0:18:03.520,0:18:10.080
I haven't tried most of the free distros

0:18:07.200,0:18:11.120
and the reason is it's not crucial that

0:18:10.080,0:18:13.520
I do so

0:18:11.120,0:18:14.799
we don't need me to rate the various

0:18:13.520,0:18:17.520
free distros on

0:18:14.799,0:18:20.000
practical questions because anyone can

0:18:17.520,0:18:24.400
do that as well as I can

0:18:20.000,0:18:27.760
and so you can tell people what

0:18:24.400,0:18:29.360
you think of using them for me what's

0:18:27.760,0:18:32.400
important to me

0:18:29.360,0:18:34.160
is to inform people of the difference

0:18:32.400,0:18:36.799
between the free distros

0:18:34.160,0:18:38.799
and the non-free distros making sure

0:18:36.799,0:18:42.000
people are aware that if you

0:18:38.799,0:18:45.600
install a non-free gnu slash linux

0:18:42.000,0:18:46.720
distro you'll get a free operating

0:18:45.600,0:18:49.919
system with

0:18:46.720,0:18:54.160
non-free stuff in various quantities

0:18:49.919,0:18:56.240
added thus you will not reach freedom

0:18:54.160,0:18:57.520
although you you'll make a lot of

0:18:56.240,0:19:01.039
progress compared

0:18:57.520,0:19:03.919
with using for instance windows or

0:19:01.039,0:19:06.160
mac os or whatever vicious thing it

0:19:03.919,0:19:08.559
might be

0:19:06.160,0:19:09.760
I'd like to I'd like to people to be

0:19:08.559,0:19:12.799
aware

0:19:09.760,0:19:14.720
of this next step towards

0:19:12.799,0:19:16.160
getting freedom for yourself and your

0:19:14.720,0:19:24.480
own computing

0:19:16.160,0:19:26.799
so that you can do that if you want to

0:19:24.480,0:19:26.799
uh

0:19:29.039,0:19:32.799
so who gets to make the final decision

0:19:31.360,0:19:36.640
regarding

0:19:32.799,0:19:39.200
non-gnu elpa the

0:19:36.640,0:19:40.960
emax maintainers are going to be in

0:19:39.200,0:19:44.480
charge of this

0:19:40.960,0:19:47.760
but because it's not

0:19:44.480,0:19:51.360
just a technical decision it has with

0:19:47.760,0:19:54.960
only technical consequences

0:19:51.360,0:19:57.760
but in general unless there's some

0:19:54.960,0:20:00.720
severe problem with the package we will

0:19:57.760,0:20:00.720
want to put it in

0:20:03.600,0:20:07.440
and I expect most packages won't have a

0:20:06.400,0:20:09.919
problem

0:20:07.440,0:20:11.679
and we can just put them in when we get

0:20:09.919,0:20:15.919
to them

0:20:11.679,0:20:17.600
won't the elpa link to non-free sites

0:20:15.919,0:20:20.799
like github

0:20:17.600,0:20:24.320
uh it's a mistake to talk about a

0:20:20.799,0:20:24.320
non-free site

0:20:25.760,0:20:32.159
because a site is not a program

0:20:29.120,0:20:32.960
a program is either free or non-free and

0:20:32.159,0:20:36.480
we have

0:20:32.960,0:20:39.679
clearly stated criteria for that in

0:20:36.480,0:20:43.039
gnu.org philosophy slash

0:20:39.679,0:20:45.360
free dash sw.html we have the free

0:20:43.039,0:20:51.360
software definition

0:20:45.360,0:20:51.360
but a site well their programs on it

0:20:51.919,0:20:55.120
but it doesn't make sense to ask whether

0:20:54.000,0:20:58.000
the site is

0:20:55.120,0:20:58.880
free or not it's too simplistic a

0:20:58.000,0:21:02.000
question

0:20:58.880,0:21:05.679
to have a meaningful answer now one

0:21:02.000,0:21:08.799
thing you can ask about is does the site

0:21:05.679,0:21:11.760
send javascript to the user's machine

0:21:08.799,0:21:12.960
to the user's browser and if so is that

0:21:11.760,0:21:17.120
javascript

0:21:12.960,0:21:19.919
non-free well github

0:21:17.120,0:21:21.200
does send non-free javascript for some

0:21:19.919,0:21:24.240
operations

0:21:21.200,0:21:26.159
so we consider it unsatisfactory as a

0:21:24.240,0:21:29.600
repository

0:21:26.159,0:21:33.360
but uh that doesn't mean linking to it

0:21:29.600,0:21:34.720
for is a bad thing to do regardless of

0:21:33.360,0:21:36.640
what the purpose is

0:21:34.720,0:21:38.240
for instance if the purpose is to refer

0:21:36.640,0:21:40.799
to some things

0:21:38.240,0:21:42.880
that you can access without running the

0:21:40.799,0:21:47.039
non-free javascript

0:21:42.880,0:21:47.039
then it's okay for that purpose

0:21:47.200,0:21:52.559
so if now that you understand the

0:21:50.480,0:21:54.880
details of this issue

0:21:52.559,0:21:55.919
you think that there is a problem with

0:21:54.880,0:22:00.080
the

0:21:55.919,0:22:03.679
link to camel there's

0:22:00.080,0:22:06.799
sorry a link in camel dot html

0:22:03.679,0:22:10.880
well report it to

0:22:06.799,0:22:14.159
uh bug gnu emax reported as an Emacs bug

0:22:10.880,0:22:15.840
but do think about the criteria I've

0:22:14.159,0:22:18.000
just said because maybe it's not a

0:22:15.840,0:22:21.840
problem

0:22:18.000,0:22:24.559
is it okay to use the gnu of pharaoh gpl

0:22:21.840,0:22:27.840
for emax packages

0:22:24.559,0:22:27.840
yes it is

0:22:28.880,0:22:32.080
uh which is your favorite programming

0:22:31.120,0:22:35.200
language

0:22:32.080,0:22:38.400
if lisp which variant

0:22:35.200,0:22:41.760
well I don't exactly have a

0:22:38.400,0:22:45.120
favorite variant but

0:22:41.760,0:22:47.520
when I designed Emacs lisp I

0:22:45.120,0:22:48.799
did the best thing I could think of at

0:22:47.520,0:22:52.559
the time

0:22:48.799,0:22:55.520
subject to the need to keep it small

0:22:52.559,0:22:56.960
for the first few years it was important

0:22:55.520,0:22:59.840
for gdu Emacs

0:22:56.960,0:23:00.799
to run in a machine which could only

0:22:59.840,0:23:04.480
give it half

0:23:00.799,0:23:06.559
a meg of user space

0:23:04.480,0:23:09.200
so there are a lot of constructs that

0:23:06.559,0:23:12.320
clearly were desirable to include

0:23:09.200,0:23:15.840
that I left out because we could

0:23:12.320,0:23:15.840
make it work without them

0:23:16.880,0:23:20.640
and then a lot of those have been added

0:23:18.960,0:23:23.200
since because

0:23:20.640,0:23:37.840
it's been a long time since we needed to

0:23:23.200,0:23:37.840
keep Emacs so rigorously small

0:23:40.960,0:23:47.679
um someone is

0:23:44.240,0:23:51.360
asking about the

0:23:47.679,0:23:54.400
fsf's repository project well

0:23:51.360,0:23:55.440
we agreed that there would be another

0:23:54.400,0:23:59.919
virtual machine

0:23:55.440,0:24:05.840
running one of those for the gnu project

0:23:59.919,0:24:05.840
but that's as far as the discussion went

0:24:15.840,0:24:25.600
question 17 is extremely insulting

0:24:20.480,0:24:28.720
I have not engaged in sexual harassment

0:24:25.600,0:24:28.960
don't expect me to plead guilty to such

0:24:28.720,0:24:32.640
a

0:24:28.960,0:24:35.600
nasty claim

0:24:32.640,0:24:36.799
people have been accusing me of many

0:24:35.600,0:24:39.919
things

0:24:36.799,0:24:43.120
some of which are

0:24:39.919,0:24:46.559
basically mole hills and some of which

0:24:43.120,0:24:50.640
are false so

0:24:46.559,0:24:53.840
uh I'm not going to give them

0:24:50.640,0:24:56.400
anything I have been bullied in a

0:24:53.840,0:24:59.360
horrible way

0:24:56.400,0:24:59.360
that was wrong

0:24:59.679,0:25:03.520
I would like the bullies to apologize to

0:25:02.720,0:25:06.320
me

0:25:03.520,0:25:08.960
and when I see that they're not bullying

0:25:06.320,0:25:11.279
I will forgive them

0:25:08.960,0:25:14.799
I would like to have conversations with

0:25:11.279,0:25:17.840
them if any of the mole hills

0:25:14.799,0:25:20.880
annoyed someone I'm happy to talk

0:25:17.840,0:25:29.840
with her and thus

0:25:20.880,0:25:29.840
uh help help resolve things with peace

0:25:31.120,0:25:39.200
and my opinion on

0:25:35.120,0:25:42.720
quote diversity within

0:25:39.200,0:25:45.679
Emacs well Emacs is

0:25:42.720,0:25:46.480
never going to be diverse it is extended

0:25:45.679,0:25:49.760
in

0:25:46.480,0:25:53.279
one language Emacs lisp

0:25:49.760,0:25:55.840
well I don't know uh we did have an idea

0:25:53.279,0:25:58.400
of implementing extensibility using

0:25:55.840,0:26:01.120
scheme and the hope was that guile

0:25:58.400,0:26:02.960
could be integrated with Emacs that

0:26:01.120,0:26:05.279
turned out to be difficult it may be

0:26:02.960,0:26:07.520
impossible but in principle

0:26:05.279,0:26:11.039
it might be a good thing that would be a

0:26:07.520,0:26:14.960
small amount of diversity

0:26:11.039,0:26:16.960
but it's not that important

0:26:14.960,0:26:18.880
what I think is really important for

0:26:16.960,0:26:22.799
developing Emacs

0:26:18.880,0:26:27.039
is to make it do word processing

0:26:22.799,0:26:30.080
I sometimes use libra office

0:26:27.039,0:26:32.799
and yeah I can make it do things

0:26:30.080,0:26:34.880
it has features for wysiwyg which are

0:26:32.799,0:26:38.000
very nice

0:26:34.880,0:26:40.400
but it's in other regards

0:26:38.000,0:26:42.400
it's not Emacs and it doesn't have the

0:26:40.400,0:26:45.520
abilities of Emacs

0:26:42.400,0:26:45.520
and it should

0:26:45.600,0:26:49.039
so I urge people to work on extending

0:26:48.400,0:26:51.600
Emacs

0:26:49.039,0:27:07.840
in that direction adding the features

0:26:51.600,0:27:07.840
that a word processor has to have

0:27:13.600,0:27:21.679
the last question I can answer is

0:27:16.640,0:27:24.960
18 but yes it's a very sad thing

0:27:21.679,0:27:28.399
how many companies

0:27:24.960,0:27:33.200
insist on using non-free software

0:27:28.399,0:27:36.799
well I would get a different kind of job

0:27:33.200,0:27:40.320
that's a decision I made many years ago

0:27:36.799,0:27:42.799
early in the gnu project

0:27:40.320,0:27:47.440
I decided I would not first I would not

0:27:42.799,0:27:47.440
get a job developing non-free software

0:27:47.679,0:27:54.880
and later on I decided

0:27:50.960,0:27:57.120
once I could stop using non-free

0:27:54.880,0:28:00.799
software that is once we had

0:27:57.120,0:28:05.679
a gnu slash linux system that we could

0:28:00.799,0:28:05.679
switch over to and uh

0:28:08.320,0:28:16.240
oh wait I thought I thought magic wand

0:28:11.679,0:28:20.080
time meant it was time to stop

0:28:16.240,0:28:20.080
but now I rather ask the question

0:28:21.039,0:28:23.279
uh

0:28:27.760,0:28:35.679
so what do you do well if I were you

0:28:32.480,0:28:37.440
I'd probably not work for any of those

0:28:35.679,0:28:39.679
companies

0:28:37.440,0:28:40.799
if I needed to make money I'd get a job

0:28:39.679,0:28:43.840
but I get some

0:28:40.799,0:28:48.080
other kind of job

0:28:43.840,0:28:51.039
that didn't involve using software

0:28:48.080,0:28:53.600
I would or that let me choose the

0:28:51.039,0:28:56.880
software I would use

0:28:53.600,0:28:58.000
but I would live cheaply you know the

0:28:56.880,0:29:00.640
less you spend

0:28:58.000,0:29:01.120
the less you need to make and the more

0:29:00.640,0:29:04.720
time

0:29:01.120,0:29:07.200
you can take away from your paid work

0:29:04.720,0:29:08.640
and the more flexibility you have in

0:29:07.200,0:29:13.039
which paid work

0:29:08.640,0:29:16.399
you can do being in a position

0:29:13.039,0:29:19.919
to say no to avoid being

0:29:16.399,0:29:19.919
desperate to say yes

0:29:23.679,0:29:31.200
uh strengthens your position

0:29:27.440,0:29:33.279
and you need that one way you can help

0:29:31.200,0:29:36.559
do that is by

0:29:33.279,0:29:38.960
not having children now that is a

0:29:36.559,0:29:41.760
tangent but it can't be denied that

0:29:38.960,0:29:42.399
raising children is very expensive I

0:29:41.760,0:29:45.559
have heard

0:29:42.399,0:29:48.080
many people say that they are

0:29:45.559,0:29:50.880
uncomfortable with their jobs

0:29:48.080,0:29:52.240
but they have to do those jobs to make

0:29:50.880,0:29:55.440
enough money

0:29:52.240,0:29:59.120
to support their children

0:29:55.440,0:30:01.520
well think about that be aware

0:29:59.120,0:30:04.720
that's likely to happen to you before

0:30:01.520,0:30:04.720
you make that decision

0:30:06.159,0:30:09.840
what would I

0:30:10.000,0:30:16.960
what would I change about free software

0:30:13.279,0:30:20.880
well since this is

0:30:16.960,0:30:25.600
magic I would magically find

0:30:20.880,0:30:28.000
a way of showing everyone why

0:30:25.600,0:30:29.679
most free software needs to be copy

0:30:28.000,0:30:32.480
lifted

0:30:29.679,0:30:34.880
so that our community would not

0:30:32.480,0:30:38.640
basically

0:30:34.880,0:30:41.360
submit to abuse by proprietary software

0:30:38.640,0:30:41.360
developers

0:30:45.919,0:30:53.279
of course I could go further if I could

0:30:49.760,0:30:55.760
magically recruit a hundred thousand

0:30:53.279,0:30:57.919
good programmers to do lots of work

0:30:55.760,0:31:01.039
improving free software

0:30:57.919,0:31:03.279
we might well if we could do this 20

0:31:01.039,0:31:06.559
years ago we might have wiped out

0:31:03.279,0:31:07.200
non-free systems and then we wouldn't

0:31:06.559,0:31:10.320
have had

0:31:07.200,0:31:14.480
horrible things like

0:31:10.320,0:31:18.000
world wide web drm that

0:31:14.480,0:31:20.480
no one has the courage to resist

0:31:18.000,0:31:22.640
if they're desperately trying to get

0:31:20.480,0:31:26.240
money for anything

0:31:22.640,0:31:29.519
and if they need approval of companies

0:31:26.240,0:31:32.960
of the big companies that push for drm

0:31:29.519,0:31:36.720
uh then they don't dare even resist as

0:31:32.960,0:31:36.720
much as they can resist

0:31:38.240,0:31:43.200
and look what happened to the world wide

0:31:40.880,0:31:47.279
web consortium

0:31:43.200,0:31:50.399
uh they surrendered blatantly

0:31:47.279,0:31:54.399
and ignominiously by

0:31:50.399,0:31:54.399
endorsing the drm system

0:31:55.760,0:32:00.880
so what can you do I don't have a magic

0:31:59.600,0:32:04.720
wand

0:32:00.880,0:32:06.559
I'm a human being with the capabilities

0:32:04.720,0:32:09.919
I have

0:32:06.559,0:32:12.840
but the advantage of

0:32:09.919,0:32:14.000
great firmness in campaigning for free

0:32:12.840,0:32:18.240
software

0:32:14.000,0:32:23.200
and this enables me to do things

0:32:18.240,0:32:23.200
that no one else will do

0:32:27.679,0:32:31.519
what tools from pre unix days do you

0:32:30.480,0:32:34.240
miss

0:32:31.519,0:32:34.880
well I don't I don't think about them

0:32:34.240,0:32:38.640
with

0:32:34.880,0:32:42.080
missing them actually but

0:32:38.640,0:32:46.240
it was sort of nice to have

0:32:42.080,0:32:49.600
ddt as your login shell

0:32:46.240,0:32:52.640
so in using modern terminology

0:32:49.600,0:32:55.519
because that meant at any time you could

0:32:52.640,0:32:57.519
stop a program lotus debugging symbols

0:32:55.519,0:32:58.799
and start examining the data in the

0:32:57.519,0:33:01.519
instructions

0:32:58.799,0:33:03.039
you could debug it that way and then you

0:33:01.519,0:33:06.720
could even

0:33:03.039,0:33:09.760
patch in instructions to continue

0:33:06.720,0:33:11.600
running that job with the bug fixed

0:33:09.760,0:33:13.919
in fact you could even do this with the

0:33:11.600,0:33:16.640
system kernel

0:33:13.919,0:33:17.840
so that your jobs wouldn't get lost I

0:33:16.640,0:33:20.559
did that

0:33:17.840,0:33:22.720
quite a few times of course sometimes I

0:33:20.559,0:33:25.919
saw what was wrong and I just had to

0:33:22.720,0:33:28.240
fix a piece of data but sometimes

0:33:25.919,0:33:29.679
it took me a long time to figure out how

0:33:28.240,0:33:32.480
to get the system to

0:33:29.679,0:33:34.240
keep on going but with the work I had

0:33:32.480,0:33:39.279
done

0:33:34.240,0:33:41.600
I didn't want to lose that work

0:33:39.279,0:33:43.039
and so one of the first features I put

0:33:41.600,0:33:45.840
into gdu Emacs was

0:33:43.039,0:33:45.840
auto save

0:33:47.760,0:33:54.320
uh I'm not going to try to figure out

0:33:50.640,0:33:56.480
which packages I re I actually used

0:33:54.320,0:33:59.039
uh if I knew I would get hit by a bus

0:33:56.480,0:34:02.320
tomorrow

0:33:59.039,0:34:05.039
uh say because of a fortune teller

0:34:02.320,0:34:06.240
no a fortune teller doesn't give you any

0:34:05.039,0:34:10.159
knowledge it's just

0:34:06.240,0:34:13.760
superstitious uh hand waving

0:34:10.159,0:34:16.480
so assuming that I

0:34:13.760,0:34:18.879
talked that I got a reading from a

0:34:16.480,0:34:23.119
fortune teller which is

0:34:18.879,0:34:25.040
implausible enough to begin with uh

0:34:23.119,0:34:28.320
that wouldn't give me any knowledge

0:34:25.040,0:34:32.879
about what was going to happen to me

0:34:28.320,0:34:34.960
oh by the way fortune tellers generally

0:34:32.879,0:34:36.879
play back to you facts that they've

0:34:34.960,0:34:40.480
discovered about you

0:34:36.879,0:34:43.440
together with cold reading which means

0:34:40.480,0:34:44.639
they say things calculated to make it

0:34:43.440,0:34:49.119
appear that they know

0:34:44.639,0:34:52.399
more than they do or things that are

0:34:49.119,0:34:55.679
uh that sound wise to anyone

0:34:52.399,0:34:58.800
so you can say the same thing to

0:34:55.679,0:35:02.000
uh say 100 people

0:34:58.800,0:35:05.359
and 80 or 90 of them will say boy that

0:35:02.000,0:35:05.359
was really accurate

0:35:06.480,0:35:14.880
but what if for some reason

0:35:10.400,0:35:14.880
uh about

0:35:15.119,0:35:18.560
what what advice would I give for

0:35:17.440,0:35:22.079
stewardship of

0:35:18.560,0:35:25.359
Emacs well basically

0:35:22.079,0:35:28.480
focus on

0:35:25.359,0:35:29.280
keeping the community strong in

0:35:28.480,0:35:32.640
defending

0:35:29.280,0:35:34.400
freedom if you have a choice between

0:35:32.640,0:35:36.079
keeping the community strong in

0:35:34.400,0:35:38.800
defending freedom

0:35:36.079,0:35:40.720
and getting more people to participate

0:35:38.800,0:35:43.839
in the development

0:35:40.720,0:35:44.400
you've got to choose the freedom it is

0:35:43.839,0:35:48.400
very

0:35:44.400,0:35:52.320
easy for free software projects to

0:35:48.400,0:35:55.359
subordinate freedom to other criteria

0:35:52.320,0:35:58.079
and once that happens it's

0:35:55.359,0:35:58.720
easy for those who don't care much about

0:35:58.079,0:36:00.800
freedom

0:35:58.720,0:36:02.640
such as sometimes companies that might

0:36:00.800,0:36:08.160
offer you some money

0:36:02.640,0:36:10.560
to purchase your soul

0:36:08.160,0:36:14.240
not that there are really things that

0:36:10.560,0:36:16.560
exist called souls it's a metaphor but

0:36:14.240,0:36:18.800
it's an important metaphor for something

0:36:16.560,0:36:20.880
important

0:36:18.800,0:36:24.320
people in the community have to be

0:36:20.880,0:36:27.280
thinking about freedom

0:36:24.320,0:36:30.240
when they make decisions about what is

0:36:27.280,0:36:30.240
wise to do

0:36:31.839,0:36:39.839
the decision to devel to set up non-glpa

0:36:36.480,0:36:41.520
has a drawback it was a compromise now a

0:36:39.839,0:36:44.560
lot of people will

0:36:41.520,0:36:46.240
tell you that I am uncompromising and

0:36:44.560,0:36:48.720
say that that's a flaw

0:36:46.240,0:36:50.320
well they're wrong I make little

0:36:48.720,0:36:53.040
compromises

0:36:50.320,0:36:55.359
very often and occasionally I make a

0:36:53.040,0:36:58.880
medium-sized compromise

0:36:55.359,0:36:59.359
the compromise is in the past we wanted

0:36:58.880,0:37:01.599
to get

0:36:59.359,0:37:02.400
copyright assignments for the packages

0:37:01.599,0:37:06.240
in gnu

0:37:02.400,0:37:09.119
elpa so that we could move them into

0:37:06.240,0:37:11.200
core Emacs and of course sometimes we

0:37:09.119,0:37:14.480
move packages in the other direction

0:37:11.200,0:37:16.160
that way we are where we distribute a

0:37:14.480,0:37:18.160
given package

0:37:16.160,0:37:20.720
is something we can decide purely

0:37:18.160,0:37:20.720
technically

0:37:20.880,0:37:26.800
and however make insisting on getting

0:37:25.200,0:37:28.640
copyright assignments for all the

0:37:26.800,0:37:32.079
packages in gnu elpa

0:37:28.640,0:37:35.119
meant that we had to say sorry no

0:37:32.079,0:37:38.560
we will not install that packages in

0:37:35.119,0:37:41.520
packaging dewey lpa unless the

0:37:38.560,0:37:44.079
authors sign copyright assignments and

0:37:41.520,0:37:47.520
sometimes that's a lot of trouble

0:37:44.079,0:37:50.160
well non-glpa

0:37:47.520,0:37:51.520
won't require copyright assignments if

0:37:50.160,0:37:54.560
there's a free package

0:37:51.520,0:37:57.200
we can make whatever changes presumably

0:37:54.560,0:38:00.560
small otherwise we would probably say

0:37:57.200,0:38:04.560
we don't have time but and then

0:38:00.560,0:38:05.599
put it in but it does have the drawback

0:38:04.560,0:38:07.680
that

0:38:05.599,0:38:09.119
we in general we won't be able to move

0:38:07.680,0:38:12.960
those packages

0:38:09.119,0:38:14.960
into core Emacs without

0:38:12.960,0:38:19.839
getting the legal papers then that we

0:38:14.960,0:38:19.839
didn't get before

0:38:20.160,0:38:27.599
how do you see the future of gdu Emacs

0:38:24.320,0:38:29.839
uh I don't see the future

0:38:27.599,0:38:31.680
I used to say that my crystal ball is

0:38:29.839,0:38:35.680
cloudy today

0:38:31.680,0:38:39.040
unfortunately that has another

0:38:35.680,0:38:41.200
meaning which is quite ironic uh we

0:38:39.040,0:38:44.800
certainly don't want

0:38:41.200,0:38:48.480
our lives to be

0:38:44.800,0:38:51.119
somewhere in a cloud because

0:38:48.480,0:38:51.599
that clouds your mind and then people

0:38:51.119,0:38:54.240
start

0:38:51.599,0:38:56.880
cheating you and taking advantage of you

0:38:54.240,0:39:00.160
and it's horrible

0:38:56.880,0:39:02.720
but uh I don't see the future I just

0:39:00.160,0:39:03.839
can be sure from the past that there

0:39:02.720,0:39:07.599
will be

0:39:03.839,0:39:10.720
challenges where some of the people

0:39:07.599,0:39:12.960
involved want to make a big compromise

0:39:10.720,0:39:16.880
that isn't worth it

0:39:12.960,0:39:18.079
and they some they may even get the

0:39:16.880,0:39:21.200
impression that it's

0:39:18.079,0:39:24.480
up to them well actually

0:39:21.200,0:39:27.440
Emacs has appointed maintainers just as

0:39:24.480,0:39:29.280
every gdu package does and they are the

0:39:27.440,0:39:30.480
ones in charge of developing that

0:39:29.280,0:39:34.400
package

0:39:30.480,0:39:38.200
and this is for a good reason

0:39:34.400,0:39:39.760
because the appointed maintainers take

0:39:38.200,0:39:42.240
responsibility

0:39:39.760,0:39:44.079
to carry out the gnu project policies

0:39:42.240,0:39:46.160
and most important of all

0:39:44.079,0:39:47.520
are the ones that make the whole system

0:39:46.160,0:39:52.160
work together

0:39:47.520,0:39:52.160
and the ethical standards

0:39:52.640,0:39:57.839
to respect freedom and defend freedom

0:39:59.920,0:40:04.960
is there any plan to move more packages

0:40:02.240,0:40:08.480
from core Emacs into elpa

0:40:04.960,0:40:11.440
uh I don't know uh

0:40:08.480,0:40:12.720
whether there is a plan I suppose if

0:40:11.440,0:40:15.680
there's a plan

0:40:12.720,0:40:16.960
we probably would have done it if there

0:40:15.680,0:40:19.839
had been a plan

0:40:16.960,0:40:20.319
some have been moved I don't see this as

0:40:19.839,0:40:22.400
a

0:40:20.319,0:40:24.160
fundamentally important issue it's a

0:40:22.400,0:40:26.640
matter of what's convenient for

0:40:24.160,0:40:29.599
the users and their advantages and

0:40:26.640,0:40:32.800
disadvantages to each choice

0:40:29.599,0:40:35.760
what is your opinion on higher education

0:40:32.800,0:40:36.720
uh requiring non-free software for

0:40:35.760,0:40:40.400
instance

0:40:36.720,0:40:43.440
well I wouldn't I wouldn't

0:40:40.400,0:40:49.119
matriculate in a school which did that

0:40:43.440,0:40:49.119
unless I saw a way I could refuse

0:40:50.960,0:40:57.760
now of course I do this

0:40:54.960,0:41:00.240
because I can get away with it and

0:40:57.760,0:41:04.960
therefore my doing it is extremely

0:41:00.240,0:41:08.400
important to show somebody does resist

0:41:04.960,0:41:09.359
I don't expect most people who support

0:41:08.400,0:41:12.319
free school

0:41:09.359,0:41:13.599
who advocate free software to go that

0:41:12.319,0:41:17.760
far

0:41:13.599,0:41:21.040
uh I published an article in the spring

0:41:17.760,0:41:24.640
entitled saying no even once

0:41:21.040,0:41:25.359
is helping saying no to non-free

0:41:24.640,0:41:29.040
software

0:41:25.359,0:41:32.240
even once because

0:41:29.040,0:41:34.640
the more you do it the more you help but

0:41:32.240,0:41:36.640
even doing it a little in a way that

0:41:34.640,0:41:39.920
other people notice

0:41:36.640,0:41:43.440
is starting to help so

0:41:39.920,0:41:45.119
uh please don't think that your choices

0:41:43.440,0:41:48.480
are either

0:41:45.119,0:41:52.240
be as firm and stubborn as I am

0:41:48.480,0:41:56.240
or just give up and let yourself drift

0:41:52.240,0:41:58.079
helplessly as if you had no volition

0:41:56.240,0:42:00.720
there are a lot of points in between

0:41:58.079,0:42:04.079
there and you can surely

0:42:00.720,0:42:07.839
manage to say no some of the time

0:42:04.079,0:42:11.040
and show people an example of saying no

0:42:07.839,0:42:12.720
some of the time for instance you could

0:42:11.040,0:42:15.520
say to people

0:42:12.720,0:42:16.000
you know I hate the fact that my school

0:42:15.520,0:42:20.400
makes me

0:42:16.000,0:42:22.240
use zoom uh so whenever

0:42:20.400,0:42:24.640
I'm not being forced I'm not going to

0:42:22.240,0:42:24.640
use it

0:42:25.760,0:42:31.200
or I hate the fact that the only way I

0:42:29.200,0:42:35.200
can talk to that group of people

0:42:31.200,0:42:38.400
is resume but when

0:42:35.200,0:42:40.079
but for anything else I will feel better

0:42:38.400,0:42:42.880
about myself if I don't

0:42:40.079,0:42:44.000
see lots of ways to say no some of the

0:42:42.880,0:42:47.040
time

0:42:44.000,0:42:50.960
and yield some of the time

0:42:47.040,0:42:53.920
and when you try saying no occasionally

0:42:50.960,0:42:56.400
you may just develop the ability to say

0:42:53.920,0:42:58.800
no more often

0:42:56.400,0:43:00.640
now whether you would ever get to be as

0:42:58.800,0:43:04.480
stubborn as I am

0:43:00.640,0:43:08.480
I don't know but what I find is that

0:43:04.480,0:43:12.480
I like the fact that I've never made

0:43:08.480,0:43:15.839
this kind of compromise

0:43:12.480,0:43:19.319
I feel I have a reputation to maintain

0:43:15.839,0:43:21.119
nobody's forcing me but I get

0:43:19.319,0:43:24.319
satisfaction

0:43:21.119,0:43:26.400
out of maintaining out of being able to

0:43:24.319,0:43:29.280
continue to say

0:43:26.400,0:43:29.280
I will not

0:43:30.880,0:43:40.480
you are now unmuted and that also

0:43:34.480,0:43:43.520
can happen at various different levels

0:43:40.480,0:43:46.640
so you can get that satisfaction

0:43:43.520,0:43:54.400
of fully maintaining a refusal

0:43:46.640,0:43:57.040
that applies only to certain areas

0:43:54.400,0:43:58.880
citizens uh noon already let's maybe

0:43:57.040,0:43:59.599
take one or two more questions and then

0:43:58.880,0:44:03.200
break for

0:43:59.599,0:44:06.000
the lunch break okay thank you

0:44:03.200,0:44:07.440
how often do you personally use Emacs as

0:44:06.000,0:44:10.640
the

0:44:07.440,0:44:14.960
lowest question now uh

0:44:10.640,0:44:14.960
well I use it most of the day

0:44:16.640,0:44:20.160
I occasionally do use other things in

0:44:18.880,0:44:21.599
fact I occasionally edit with

0:44:20.160,0:44:24.240
libreoffice

0:44:21.599,0:44:25.280
I occasionally use media players I

0:44:24.240,0:44:27.520
occasionally

0:44:25.280,0:44:27.520
uh

0:44:29.040,0:44:34.000
I occasionally ssh to a machine and type

0:44:32.480,0:44:35.440
some commands on it

0:44:34.000,0:44:38.240
which occasionally includes running

0:44:35.440,0:44:38.240
Emacs on it

0:44:42.319,0:44:47.520
I read pdf files a lot

0:44:45.760,0:44:49.599
would be nice if you could get those

0:44:47.520,0:44:52.240
into Emacs so that I could read them

0:44:49.599,0:44:55.040
with Emacs commands

0:44:52.240,0:44:56.160
and I maybe even edit them with the max

0:44:55.040,0:44:59.440
commands

0:44:56.160,0:45:02.960
when they can be edited I use

0:44:59.440,0:45:07.680
uh journal sometimes

0:45:02.960,0:45:07.680
to write on a pdf file

0:45:10.079,0:45:13.760
are there any more interesting projects

0:45:12.160,0:45:18.400
you have in mind over and above

0:45:13.760,0:45:22.079
non-gnu elpa uh

0:45:18.400,0:45:25.520
I can't think of one right now well

0:45:22.079,0:45:27.119
there are things there are things that

0:45:25.520,0:45:30.560
the gnu project needs

0:45:27.119,0:45:32.319
doing there are packages that don't have

0:45:30.560,0:45:35.839
maintainers or could use

0:45:32.319,0:45:38.880
more maintainers uh

0:45:35.839,0:45:42.000
talk with maintainers at canoe.org

0:45:38.880,0:45:44.960
and the assistant candusences will

0:45:42.000,0:45:47.839
help you find a package where you can do

0:45:44.960,0:45:47.839
good

0:45:48.400,0:45:52.079
not for beginners though you got to get

0:45:50.560,0:45:55.599
you got to learn

0:45:52.079,0:45:58.160
uh a substantive substantial level of

0:45:55.599,0:45:59.440
capacity to develop and debug programs

0:45:58.160,0:46:02.800
before you can

0:45:59.440,0:46:04.480
be a maintainer uh have I ever looked at

0:46:02.800,0:46:08.400
maggot

0:46:04.480,0:46:11.920
uh no I haven't

0:46:08.400,0:46:14.880
but I believe

0:46:11.920,0:46:16.560
work is being done to get it put into

0:46:14.880,0:46:21.200
Emacs

0:46:16.560,0:46:21.200
and at that point I'll give it a try

0:46:22.240,0:46:25.760
I do not want to share my configuration

0:46:25.200,0:46:29.520
files

0:46:25.760,0:46:33.599
they're personal but

0:46:29.520,0:46:36.880
how about if we end this now

0:46:33.599,0:46:38.880
you are now unmuted sounds good to me

0:46:36.880,0:46:41.520
thank you very much richard for joining

0:46:38.880,0:46:43.839
in for live questions

0:46:41.520,0:46:43.839
okay