path: root/2020/subtitles/emacsconf-2020--12-one-big-ass-org-file-or-multiple-tiny-ones-finally-the-end-of-the-debate--leo-vivier.vtt

WEBVTT

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([Amin Bandali]: I mean, we are ahead of
the schedule

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a little bit, but I mean we also were

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a little bit earlier in the day.

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Yeah, I'd say that's fine. Go for it.

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Take it away.)

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[Leo Vivier]: Sure. Thank you. So am I live already?

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[Amin]: Yep, you're live.

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[Leo]: Hello

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Splendid. So I'll just start the timer to

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make sure that I don't go overboard.

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All right. ([BBB:] you are now muted) Okay, good

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to go now.

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Hello again, everyone! I hope you had,

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well, quite a lot of talks

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ever since the last one I did, and all

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more interesting

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one after the other.

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You know, I'm a bit in a bit of a weird

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spot right now, because I'm supposed to

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be presenting to you (as you can see on
my screen)

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"One big-ass Org file or multiple tiny ones:

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finally, the end of the debate,"

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and it sounds about as clickbaity

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as you can possibly get with those

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topics. By the way,

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credit where credit is due, the title

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is not mine. It's actually from Bastien

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Guerry, the current Org

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maintainer. Yeah, I wanted to

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talk to you a little bit today about

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this question because

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if you are used to going on
reddit.com/r/emacs ,

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you know the subreddit that we
have,

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if you go on Hacker News often, you know

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it's a question that

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you see pop up every once in a while.

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"Should I be using

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one big file, or should I be using

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a lot of tiny files?" I believe you
know

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we've got defenders on both sides. If I

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just show you one example...

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We have Karl Voit. He's one

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of the organizers for the conference.

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He is the guy who probably has the

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biggest Org Mode files

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right now in all the people I know, and

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god knows I know plenty of people use

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Org Mode.

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But if you just look at this line--I hope

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it's not too small; you just

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make it a little larger--but

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Carl basically has a file with

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126,000 lines. I'm just going to pause

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and try to have you imagine how large a

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file it actually is.

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Just think about all of these lines

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being tasks in your days.

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Think about all those lines being about
little thoughts

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you know that you've had throughout the

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day or project that you were working on.

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It's massive. You know one of the

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problems that Karl Voit actually
approaches on

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this topic is that it takes him roughly

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20 seconds to get his Org agenda going,

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which is a massive amount of time.

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I mean, we have very fast computers now.

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You know, ever since Emacs was created in

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1976, computers... I have no idea how much faster

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they've gotten.

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And yet, you know, for 100,000 lines,

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Emacs seems to be choking. It's

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certainly not reasonable, in a way, to

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have to wait 20 seconds

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just for your entire file to be parsed.

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So basically what I want to do--

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By the way, I forgot to introduce the

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presentation, but I'm Leo Vivier. I did this

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before, for those who were around.

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I help maintain a software which

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is called org-roam,

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and that's the expertise that I have on

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the topic.

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Actually, if you go online, I do have a

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Github page. I will make sure that you

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have all the links available afterwards.

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But I do publish my init files,

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and you can see, if you scroll at the

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bottom, I have a little demonstration

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which shows you

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the fancy things that I can do with my

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Org Mode setup. That might be even
interesting

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in light of the talk you've just had

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about GTD stuff, because

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the first one is about how I handle my

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projects, the second one is about

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the flow from a task as I work on it...

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So I won't spend too much time on
this, but

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basically that's my expertise.

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I have spent eight years

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working with Org Mode,

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three of them actually thinking about

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writing packages.

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The thing is, if I go into a little

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bit of detail (and obviously it's only a

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lighting talk, so I won't have time to

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actually go really in depth about it), but

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there is something

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in the Org Mode library which is

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called org-element.

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You have the name right there,

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org-element.el,

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.el being for Elisp file. As you
can see,

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the page is on the Worg wiki, so it's

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accessible by everyone.

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It's basically the API that

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Org Mode uses to parse Org Mode files.

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For those who don't know, parsing

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means basically

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checking a file, checking all the contents

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of the file, and extracting all the

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information that we need from that file.

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As you can imagine, you all have

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Org Mode files in your mind,

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well you know they can be fairly complex.

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You can have properties,

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you can have contextual information, like

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if you write a line

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which starts at column zero (which means

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at the left),

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it doesn't have the same

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meaning, whether or not it is

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before the beginning of a headline or if

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it is after the beginning of a headline.

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It's going to be

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relatively different, hierarchically

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speaking.

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So the problem, when it comes to the
question of

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many files versus one big file or

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few big files, is that we always have to

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keep in mind

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what org-element wants you to do.

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The thing is, there are plenty of

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problems when it comes to parsing files,

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the first one being obviously

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that Emacs is a single-thread

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process (or has some threading

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capabilities; we're not going to go into

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the details right now, that's not my goal).

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It makes it incredibly hard to

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parallelize parsing processes

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with the current technology.

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So you'd have to imagine that if you

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have a very large file--if you go back

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to the example of Karl Voit from before:

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100,000 lines--that means that you have

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to scan

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through every single line, basically.

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Because sometimes... Let's just say that

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you have a property drawer, for instance,

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which tells you, oh okay, this tree

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has the tag :foo:. So the problem is, there

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are multiple ways for you

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to define a tag. You can use the

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usual way, which is about wrapping in

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columns the :tag: at the end of a heading.

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For instance, if I... (I'm not going to

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switch to Emacs, that's going to waste too

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much time)

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That's one way to say your tag.
But say,

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you have tag inheritance, which means

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that when you have a parent with a tag,

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you also want the child to inherit the

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tag. If you have

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first heading with the tag :foo:, you have

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the first subheading,

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and the tag :foo: is implied. Now imagine

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having to do that with a file that is

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completely nested,

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a file that has maybe 9, 10,

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11 levels of depth to it.

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It's mind-bogglingly complicated for the

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software to do that, knowing that... I've

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told you about tags,

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but any property can be inheritable.

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Anything like priorities, even. Though why

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would you do this?

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You can have groups. You can have all this.

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And as someone who went through the trouble

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of optimizing his Org agenda... So

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basically, if we go back to the

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GIFs--oh god we've already had this
discussion

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between the "git" and "magit" and now I've

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started "gif" and "gif" and I only have one

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more minute left to do so, so let's just

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say I'm going to say "gif"

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just to spite people... So if you go on

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the way I organize my agenda, what I did

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in order to keep my agenda build time

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under two seconds,

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is that I've rewritten a whole lot of

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codes to be able to parse my Org agenda
files.

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So the thing is, I'm going to be talking

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more about this later.

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I only have, let's say, one minute to

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conclude.

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So as you've gathered, I'm not going to

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be giving you the answer right now.

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I'm going to be talking about

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org-roam a little later, which is about

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following the principle of having many

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small files.

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But as someone who has been using

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one large file to manage my life,

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you know, I'm sitting on the fence.

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I do not know which one is the best,

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but I hope that my presentation has

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given you a little idea

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of what goes on behind the principles.

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You also need to think about the

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philosophy behind the organization of

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your notes.

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I hope to be approaching this topic

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with you in about

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two hours or so (maybe one hour actually).

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I'm actually finished. I've decided to

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leave you two minutes of questions.

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If someone could feed me the

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questions, that might be best,

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because I don't want... oh actually I can

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just open the pad.

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I can just open it. Give me a second, okay.

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Just loading up. I might stop showing

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my screen.

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That might make it easier. So I mean if

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you can make

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myself big now on the screen, that would

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be splendid. ([Amin]: yeah sure)

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Thank you. Where are we...

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Question 12. Okay, so what's better, one

00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:00.160
big file or...?

00:09:00.160 --> 00:09:02.160
Is it a jab to tell me that I

00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:03.120
haven't answered the question because

00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:04.240
someone just

00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.320
asked me the question? Well, personally, if

00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.080
I were to give you a quick answer in

00:09:08.560 --> 00:09:11.600
20 seconds, personally, I think it's a

00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.920
question that is contextually based.

00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:15.680
Do you want something that is efficient

00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:17.839
as far as optimization is concerned?

00:09:17.839 --> 00:09:21.200
Then you need to think about

00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:23.440
this. Personally, for all the

00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:24.640
organization that I do,

00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:27.760
all this stuff, all the TODOs that I
handle,

00:09:27.760 --> 00:09:30.080
I like to do this in one simple big file

00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:31.519
because you benefit from all the

00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.760
refiling capabilities of Org Mode,

00:09:33.760 --> 00:09:37.200
so I would do that. But for knowledge
management,

00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:40.080
for note-taking and all this, well I'd

00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:41.279
much rather follow the

00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:42.959
org-roam way of doing things, which is

00:09:42.959 --> 00:09:44.480
about having many

00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:48.240
small files. I'm not getting any

00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.000
more questions. I'm not sure if there is

00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.080
one on IRC that could be fed to me.

00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:57.040
Otherwise, I'm happy to pass over to
the next speaker.

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By the way, just before I finish, your

00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.360
world is a lie. It's not a three-piece

00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.399
suit. I'm wearing jeans below, so I hope

00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:06.520
that satisfies your curiosity.

00:10:10.640 --> 00:10:12.640
Okay, there's one more question appearing.

00:10:12.640 --> 00:10:15.040
"but otherwise one big file to have

00:10:15.040 --> 00:10:17.680
everything..." So I'm putting you on the

00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:19.760
spot, I believe. It was such a short talk.

00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:21.040
You know the problem is,

00:10:21.040 --> 00:10:24.720
I just wanted to give you a little
answer.

00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.959
A little, you know, path of thinking on

00:10:26.959 --> 00:10:27.920
this topic.

00:10:27.920 --> 00:10:29.839
Obviously it's a topic I could be

00:10:29.839 --> 00:10:31.600
spending 40 minutes on,

00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:33.200
but I'm going to be drained, you're going to

00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.120
be drained, nobody's going to be happy

00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:35.680
if I do this.

00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:41.200
Someone asked me if I switch between

00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.880
British and French accents.

00:10:42.880 --> 00:10:46.560
A little secret for you:

00:10:46.560 --> 00:10:48.480
when I'm stressed, I tend to revert to a

00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:49.760
French accent,

00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:53.760
so you can measure the amount of stress

00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:56.160
that I'm feeling during this talk

00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:58.880
with the amount of h's that I drop and

00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:02.720
the amount of sheer fright that you can
see sometimes

00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:04.399
in my eyes, when I'm thinking about what

00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.240
to say next.

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.880
All right sir. So, Amin, do you believe

00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:14.240
we can leave it at that? I'll be...

00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:15.519
People will see plenty more of me

00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:17.040
later on, anyway.

00:11:17.040 --> 00:11:20.640
([Amin:] So, looking at the schedule,
I think

00:11:20.640 --> 00:11:23.920
your talk has until like 2:02, meaning

00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:27.120
like five or six minutes from now.)

00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:28.000
Oh, right.

00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.000
([Amin:] So if you do like to take one

00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:31.680
or two questions, to add two more

00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:33.920
questions, by all means.)

00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:37.040
So someone has asked me what is

00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:38.320
the Emacs

00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.640
icon (sorry, see, another French accent)

00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:42.880
here in my status bar...

00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.880
Oh sorry, I'm not sharing any more.

00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:46.640
I might just share again just so that

00:11:46.640 --> 00:11:49.200
everyone can catch a glimpse of that.

00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:53.120
There we go. Allow...

00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:54.880
So it should be... So if you could make me

00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:56.240
small again, Amin, I'm not sure if it's

00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:56.959
going to do it

00:11:56.959 --> 00:12:00.480
by itself, but I do have a little icon

00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.839
here in my status bar

00:12:01.839 --> 00:12:04.480
which is basically a way to interact

00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:05.760
with org-protocol.

00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:09.120
I'm not going to look for it right now,

00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:10.800
but it's a browser extension that is

00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:12.399
developed by one of my friends

00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.680
over at Ranger whose name is Li Fon (??) and

00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:18.240
it's very useful. I'm someone who uses a

00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.320
lot of Org protocols. And by the way,

00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:25.279
I used to teach English to high
schoolers, and they

00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.279
were supremely worried

00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:29.600
when I showed them my status line and they

00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:34.000
saw "kill" and "explore" in my status
line.

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.560
As fellow Emacs users, you know that

00:12:36.560 --> 00:12:40.880
obviously kill means to kill a selection
of text and

00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:44.320
keep it inside your clipboard,

00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.279
but for my students, they

00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:48.320
were very worried

00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.600
about what their professor was up to

00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.600
during his nights.

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.120
So let's see if we've got more questions.

00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:56.560
I'm showing you the questions on the

00:12:56.560 --> 00:12:57.920
rainbow. Let's see if

00:12:57.920 --> 00:13:00.560
we've got more. People are posting a

00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:01.920
lot of questions now.

00:13:01.920 --> 00:13:03.920
So how do you feel about archiving files

00:13:03.920 --> 00:13:06.399
in Org Mode and how can that work?

00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.360
So one of the things when we think about

00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.920
optimization is: yes, archiving done trees

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:16.240
is a good idea because it means that if

00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.920
we go back to the org-element, the way it

00:13:17.920 --> 00:13:20.399
works (and we'll get into technical details

00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.079
afterwards; I'm giving a presentation

00:13:22.079 --> 00:13:24.079
about org-roam technical

00:13:24.079 --> 00:13:26.880
aspects, sorry, so I'll have a chance to

00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:28.399
expand a little more on this)

00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.360
but basically, org-element needs to...

00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.279
Every time it sees a TODO, it has to
consider it,

00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.320
even though it is a done TODO. Why?

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:40.000
Because let's say, for instance, that in

00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.839
your agenda you want to activate

00:13:41.839 --> 00:13:45.519
log mode, which is going to show the

00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.959
tasks which are done... Now you could be

00:13:48.959 --> 00:13:51.440
clever and say, oh okay, the Org agenda does not

00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.360
need to show done items, so it's not going

00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.880
to look for them,

00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.959
but the problem is that org-element is

00:13:56.959 --> 00:13:59.519
always called. It always needs to parse
the buffer.

00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.839
You know, Nicolas Goaziou, who is the

00:14:01.839 --> 00:14:03.519
French developer who's worked a whole

00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.040
lot on org-element

00:14:05.040 --> 00:14:07.440
has gone through a lot of trouble to

00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.600
optimize org-element, but the problem is

00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.279
there's just so much that we can do with

00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:14.720
a concurrent process.

00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.560
Right now it leaves somewhat

00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:21.120
things to be desired, but

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.079
we're working on it.

00:14:22.079 --> 00:14:24.800
One more time... I feel like I spent

00:14:24.800 --> 00:14:25.839
half of this talk

00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:28.000
teasing my next talks, but I'll be

00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.360
talking more about this

00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.279
in my future talks in about one to two

00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:32.639
hours.

00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.959
So, continuing with questions, how big are

00:14:34.959 --> 00:14:36.079
my Org files?

00:14:36.079 --> 00:14:37.760
So in the background, I'm just going to

00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:40.720
check how many lines I have in my main
file.

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.959
In my own file, so the one I told you

00:14:42.959 --> 00:14:44.079
about where I keep all

00:14:44.079 --> 00:14:47.279
my TODO GTD stuff, I have

00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.720
38,000 lines, which is...

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.000
It's sizable, definitely.

00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.040
But I do archive a lot of stuff,

00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:58.480
so that might be a slight difference

00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.880
between myself and Karl Voit,

00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.079
even though I don't remember if they

00:15:02.079 --> 00:15:04.880
actually archive stuff.

00:15:04.880 --> 00:15:06.639
So does it not consume more resources

00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:08.480
and time to load multiple files

00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.839
files than a large file or the same

00:15:10.839 --> 00:15:12.560
content now?

00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:15.839
Theoretically, yes, having many files

00:15:15.839 --> 00:15:19.279
open concurrently is slightly slower

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.240
than having one main file opened.

00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.160
Now the problem is for those of you who

00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:25.279
have large files,

00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.199
you may have noticed that when you are

00:15:27.199 --> 00:15:29.360
scrolling in a very large file,

00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.560
it starts taking quite a bit of time. Why?

00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:34.480
It's because in Org Mode,

00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:35.920
you have a lot of content

00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:38.959
that is hidden, so when you have

00:15:38.959 --> 00:15:40.959
the view mode which hides as much stuff

00:15:40.959 --> 00:15:43.600
as possible, meaning that you only see

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:45.360
the top heading--and I'm checking the

00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.880
time, Amin, don't worry, I'm finished

00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:50.240
on this one--

00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.160
when you're hiding a whole lot of stuff,

00:15:52.160 --> 00:15:54.720
Org Mode needs to keep track, or I
should say,

00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.959
Emacs needs to keep track of which areas

00:15:56.959 --> 00:15:58.160
of text to show

00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.560
and which areas of text to hide.

00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:02.320
The problem is that when you're hiding stuff--

00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.480
let's say you're moving from the

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.320
first heading to the second heading,

00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.639
but you've got like 10,000 lines between

00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:09.839
those two headings--

00:16:09.839 --> 00:16:11.519
well, Emacs needs to compute the

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.680
difference between the two passages,

00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:15.680
and that takes quite a lot of time.

00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:18.560
That's why you might realize that it's
a little

00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:21.199
choppy when you start scrolling in large
files.

00:16:21.199 --> 00:16:22.560
Anyway I could be answering questions

00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:25.120
about Org Mode for literally two hours
straight,

00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:26.720
so I'm gonna hand it over to the next

00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:28.639
speakers. I'll be seeing

00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.759
you guys a little later. ([Amin]: Thank you

00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.440
very much, Leo.)

00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.959
Oh, thank you. ([Amin:] Yes. Bye.)

00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:39.839
Bye.