path: root/2020/subtitles/emacsconf-2020--12-one-big-ass-org-file-or-multiple-tiny-ones-finally-the-end-of-the-debate--leo-vivier-autogen.vtt

WEBVTT

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I mean we are ahead of the schedule a

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little bit but I mean we also was a

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little bit earlier in the day

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so yeah yeah I'd say that's fine go for

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it take it away

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sure thank you so am I live already

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you are now unmuted um yep your life

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hello

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spell it so I'll just start the timer to

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make sure that I don't go overboard

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all right so you are now muted okay good

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to go now so

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hello again everyone so I hope you had

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well quite a lot of talks

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ever since the last one I did and all

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more interesting

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uh one after the other so um

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you know I'm a bit in a bit of a weird

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spot right now because I'm supposed to

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be presenting to you as you can see on

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my screen

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one big-ass awk file multiple tiny ones

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finally the end of the debate

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and it sounds about as clickbaity

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as you can possibly get with those

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topics and by the way

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uh credit where credit is due the title

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is not mine it's actually from bastian

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gary the current old

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maintainer and yeah I wanted to

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talk to you a little bit today about

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this question because

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if you are used to going on our slash

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emacs you know the subreddit that we

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have

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if you go on I can use often you know

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it's a question that

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you see pop-up every once in a while

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should I be using

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one big file or should I be using

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a lot of tiny files and I believe you

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know

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we've got defenders on both sides if I

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just show you one examples

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so we have carl voigt okay so he's one

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of the organizers for the conference

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he hears the guy who probably has the

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biggest augment files

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right now in all the people I know and

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god knows I know plenty of people use

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old mode

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but if you just look at this line I hope

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it's not too small you just

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make it a little larger but

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carl basically has a file with 126

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000 lines and I'm just going to pause

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and try to have you imagine how large a

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file it actually is

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just think about all of these lines

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being tasked in your days

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think about all those lines being about

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little thoughts

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you know that you've had throughout the

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day or project that you were working on

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and it's massive and you know one of the

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problem that

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uh calvoit actually approaches on

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this topic is that it takes him roughly

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20 seconds to get his old agenda going

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which is a massive amount of time

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I mean we have very fast computers now

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you know ever since e-max was created in

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1976

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computers I have no idea how much faster

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they've gotten

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and yet you know for earth 1000 lines

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emac seems to be choking and it's

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certainly not reasonable in a way to

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have to wait 20 seconds

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just for your entire file to be passed

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so basically what I want to do

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and by the way I forgot to do the

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presentation but I'm leova I did this

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before for those who were around

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and I um help maintain a software which

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is called orgrom

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and that's the expertise that I have on

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the topic

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actually if you go online I do have a

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github page I will make sure that you

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have all the links available afterwards

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but I do publish my init files

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and you can see if you scroll at the

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bottom I have a little demonstration

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which shows you

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the fancy things that I can do with my

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old mood setup and that might be even

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interesting

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in lights of the talk you've just had

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about gtd stuff because

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the first one is about how I end all my

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projects the second one is about

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the flow from a task uh as I work on it

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so

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I won't spend too much time on this but

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basically that's my expertise

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I have spent eight years working with

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working with org mode

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three of them actually thinking about

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writing packages

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and the thing is if I go into a little

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bit of details and obviously it's only a

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lighting talk so I won't have time to

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actually go really in depth about it but

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there is something

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in the ultimate libraries which is

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called org elements

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and you have the name right there org

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element.el

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dot el being for e-lisp file and as you

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can see

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the page it's on the work wiki so it's

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accessible by everyone

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but it's basically the api that

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org mode uses to pass all mode files

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so for those who don't know passing

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means basically

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checking a file checking all the content

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of the file and extracting all the

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information that we need from that file

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and as you can imagine you all have

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augmented files in your mind

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well you know they can be fairly complex

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you know you can have properties

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you can have contextual information like

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if you write a line

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which starts at column zero which means

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at the left

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you know it doesn't have the same

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meaning whether or not it is

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before the beginning of a headline or if

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it is after the beginning of a red line

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you know it's going to be

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relatively different hierarchically

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speaking

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and so the problem when it comes to the

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question of

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many files versus one big file or

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few big files is that we always have to

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keep in mind

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what org elements want you to do

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and the thing is there are plenty of

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problems when it comes to passing file

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the first one

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being obviously that emacs is a single

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thread

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process or has some threading

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capabilities we're not going to go into

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the details right now that's not my goal

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but it makes it incredibly hard to

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parallelize uh passing processes as

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we currently with the current technology

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and so you'd have to imagine that if you

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have a very large files if you go back

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to the example of carl voice from before

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100 000 lines that means that you have

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to scan

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through every single line basically

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because sometimes let's just say that

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you have a property drawer for instance

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which tells you oh okay uh this tree

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has the tag foo so the problem is there

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are multiple ways for you

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to define a tag okay so you can use the

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usual way which is about wrapping in

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columns the tag at the end of a heading

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so for instance if I I'm not going to

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switch to emac that's going to waste too

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much time

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but that's one way to say your time but

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say

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you have tag inheritance which means

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that when you have a parent with a tag

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you also want the child to inherit the

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tag so if you have

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first heading with the typhoo you have

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the first subheading

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and the tag foo is implied now imagine

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having to do that with a file that is

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completely nested

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a file that has maybe 9 10

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11 levels of depth to it

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it's mind-bogglingly complicated for the

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software to do that knowing that I've

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told you about tags

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but any property can be inheritable

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anything like priorities even though why

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would you do this

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you can have groups you can all this and

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as someone who went through the trouble

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of optimizing his old agenda so

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basically if we go back to the

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gifts gifs oh god we've already had this

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discussion

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between the git and magit and now I've

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started jeff and gif and I only have one

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more minute left to do so so let's just

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say I'm going to say gif

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just to spice people so if you go on

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the way I organize my agenda what I did

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in order to keep my agenda build time

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under two seconds

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is that I've rewritten a whole lot of

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codes to be able to pass my organ gender

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files

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so the thing is I'm going to be talking

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more about this later

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I only have let's say one minutes to

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conclude

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so as you've gathered I'm not going to

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be giving you the answer

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right now I'm going to be talking about

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orgrum a little later which is about

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following the principle of having many

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small files

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but as someone who has been using

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one large file to manage my life you

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know I'm sitting on the fence

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I do not know which one is the best

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but I hope that my presentation has

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given you a little id

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of what goes on behind the principles

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and

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you also need to think about the

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philosophy behind the organization of

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your notes

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but I hope to be approaching this topic

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with you in about

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two hours or so maybe one hour actually

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so I'm actually finished I've decided to

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leave you two minutes of questions

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so uh if someone could feed me the

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question that might be best

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because I don't want oh actually I can

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just open the year

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I can just open it give me a second okay

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ah

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just loading up huh I might stop showing

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my screen

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that might make it easier so I mean if

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you can make

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myself big now on the screen that would

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be splendid yeah sure

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thank you so uh where are we

00:08:55.839 --> 00:08:58.720
question 12. okay so what's better one

00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:00.160
big file

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I did is it did a job to tell me that I

00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:03.120
haven't answered the question because

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someone just

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asked me the question well personally if

00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:08.080
I were to give you a quick answer in

00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:08.560
like

00:09:08.560 --> 00:09:11.600
20 seconds personally I think it's a

00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:13.920
question that is contextually based

00:09:13.920 --> 00:09:15.680
do you want something that is efficient

00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:17.839
as far as optimization is concerned

00:09:17.839 --> 00:09:21.200
then you need to think about

00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:23.440
this and personally for all the

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organization that I do

00:09:24.640 --> 00:09:26.640
all this stuff all the to-do's that I

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handle

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I like to do this in one simple big file

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because you benefit from all the

00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:33.760
refiling capabilities of log mode

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so I would do that but for knowledge

00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:37.200
management

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for note-taking and all this well I'd

00:09:40.080 --> 00:09:41.279
much rather follow the

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orgrom way of doing things which is

00:09:42.959 --> 00:09:44.480
about having many

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small files okay I'm not getting any

00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.000
more questions I'm not sure if there is

00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:52.080
one on ise that could be fed to me

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otherwise I'm

00:09:53.040 --> 00:09:56.399
happy to to uh pass over to the next uh

00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:57.040
speaker

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and by the way just before I finish your

00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.360
world is a lie it's not a three-piece

00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:04.399
suit I'm wearing jeans below so I hope

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that satisfies your curiosity

00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:10.640
[Music]

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okay there's one more question appearing

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but otherwise one big file to have

00:10:15.040 --> 00:10:17.680
everything so I'm putting you on the

00:10:17.680 --> 00:10:19.760
spot I believe it was such a short talk

00:10:19.760 --> 00:10:21.040
you know the problem is

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I just wanted to give you a little

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answer

00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:26.959
a little you know path of thinking on

00:10:26.959 --> 00:10:27.920
this topic

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but obviously it's a topic I could be

00:10:29.839 --> 00:10:31.600
spending 40 minutes on but

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I'm going to be drained you're going to

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be drained nobody's going to be happy if

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I do this

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so

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and someone asked me if I switch between

00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.880
british and french accents

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so a little a little secret for you um

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when I'm stressed I tend to relate to a

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french accent

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so you can measure the amount of stress

00:10:53.760 --> 00:10:56.160
that I'm feeling during this talk

00:10:56.160 --> 00:10:58.880
with the amount of h's that I drop and

00:10:58.880 --> 00:11:00.560
the amount of uh

00:11:00.560 --> 00:11:02.720
sheer fright that you can see sometimes

00:11:02.720 --> 00:11:04.399
in my eyes when I'm thinking about what

00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.240
to say next

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.880
all right sir so I mean do you believe

00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:11.360
we can

00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:14.240
leave it at that and uh I'll be you

00:11:14.240 --> 00:11:15.519
people will see plenty more with me

00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:17.040
later on anyway

00:11:17.040 --> 00:11:20.000
right um so looking at the schedule I

00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:20.640
think

00:11:20.640 --> 00:11:23.920
your talk has until like 202 meaning

00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:27.120
like five or six minutes from now oh

00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:28.000
right

00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.000
yeah so if you do like to take like one

00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:31.680
or two questions to add two more

00:11:31.680 --> 00:11:33.920
questions by all means

00:11:33.920 --> 00:11:37.040
okay so uh someone has asked me what is

00:11:37.040 --> 00:11:38.320
the emacs icon

00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.640
icon sorry see another french accent

00:11:40.640 --> 00:11:42.880
here uh in my status bar

00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:44.880
uh oh sorry I'm not sharing anymore uh I

00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:46.640
might just share again just so that

00:11:46.640 --> 00:11:49.200
everyone can catch a glimpse of that

00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:53.120
uh there we go allow

00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:54.880
so it should be so if you could make me

00:11:54.880 --> 00:11:56.240
small again I'm in I'm not sure if it's

00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:56.959
going to do it

00:11:56.959 --> 00:12:00.480
by itself but I do have a little icon

00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:01.839
here in my status bar

00:12:01.839 --> 00:12:04.480
which is basically a way to interact

00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:05.760
with all protocol

00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:07.279
uh I'm not going to look for it right

00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:09.120
now but it's uh

00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:10.800
it's a browser extension that is

00:12:10.800 --> 00:12:12.399
developed by one of my friends

00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:15.680
over at ranger whose name is v phone and

00:12:15.680 --> 00:12:16.160
uh

00:12:16.160 --> 00:12:18.240
it's very useful I'm someone who uses a

00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:19.680
lot of uh

00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:22.320
of uh all protocols and by the way I

00:12:22.320 --> 00:12:23.040
used to teach

00:12:23.040 --> 00:12:25.279
english okay to high schoolers and they

00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:27.279
were supremely worried

00:12:27.279 --> 00:12:29.600
when I show them my status line and they

00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:30.800
so kill

00:12:30.800 --> 00:12:34.000
and explore in my status line so as

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:36.560
fellow emacs users you know that

00:12:36.560 --> 00:12:37.839
obviously kill

00:12:37.839 --> 00:12:40.880
means to kill a selection of text and

00:12:40.880 --> 00:12:44.320
keep it inside your clipboard

00:12:44.320 --> 00:12:47.279
but for my students who you know they

00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:48.320
were very worried

00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.600
about what their professor was up to

00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.600
doing his nights

00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:55.120
so let's see if we've got more questions

00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:56.560
so I'm showing you the questions on the

00:12:56.560 --> 00:12:57.920
rainbow so let's see if

00:12:57.920 --> 00:13:00.560
we've got more so people are posting a

00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:01.920
lot of questions now

00:13:01.920 --> 00:13:03.920
so how do you feel about archiving files

00:13:03.920 --> 00:13:06.399
in old mode and how can that work in

00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.360
so one of the thing when we think about

00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:10.240
optimization

00:13:10.240 --> 00:13:13.920
is yes archiving done trees

00:13:13.920 --> 00:13:16.240
is a good idea because it means that if

00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:17.920
we go back to the org element the way it

00:13:17.920 --> 00:13:18.720
works

00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:20.399
and we'll get into technical details

00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:22.079
afterwards I'm giving a presentation

00:13:22.079 --> 00:13:24.079
about all grown technical suspect

00:13:24.079 --> 00:13:26.880
aspects sorry so I'll have a chance to

00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:28.399
expand a little more on this

00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:31.360
but basically all elements need to uh

00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:32.160
every time

00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:35.279
it sees a to do it has to consider it

00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:38.320
even though it is a done to do why

00:13:38.320 --> 00:13:40.000
because let's say for instance that in

00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.839
your agenda you want to activate

00:13:41.839 --> 00:13:45.519
log mode which is going to show the

00:13:45.519 --> 00:13:48.959
tasks which are done now you could be

00:13:48.959 --> 00:13:49.519
clever

00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.440
and say oh okay the old agenda does not

00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.360
need to show don items so it's not going

00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:54.880
to look for them

00:13:54.880 --> 00:13:56.959
but the problem is that all elements is

00:13:56.959 --> 00:13:58.720
always called it always needs to pass

00:13:58.720 --> 00:13:59.519
the buffer

00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.839
you know uh nicodego as you who is the

00:14:01.839 --> 00:14:03.519
french developer who's worked a whole

00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.040
lot on all elements

00:14:05.040 --> 00:14:07.440
has gone through a lot of trouble to

00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:08.399
optimize all

00:14:08.399 --> 00:14:11.600
elements but the problem is

00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.279
there's just so much that we can do with

00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:14.720
a concurrent process

00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:18.560
and right now it leaves somewhat

00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:21.120
uh you know things to be desired but

00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:22.079
we're working on it

00:14:22.079 --> 00:14:24.800
and one more time I feel like I spent

00:14:24.800 --> 00:14:25.839
half of this talk

00:14:25.839 --> 00:14:28.000
teasing my next talks but I'll be

00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:29.360
talking more about this

00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:31.279
in my future talks in about one to two

00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:32.639
hours

00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:34.959
so continuing with questions how big are

00:14:34.959 --> 00:14:36.079
my org files

00:14:36.079 --> 00:14:37.760
so in the background I'm just going to

00:14:37.760 --> 00:14:39.839
check how many lines I have in my main

00:14:39.839 --> 00:14:40.720
file

00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:42.959
so in my own file so the one I told you

00:14:42.959 --> 00:14:44.079
about where I keep all

00:14:44.079 --> 00:14:47.279
my to do gtd stuff I have

00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:50.720
38 000 lines which is

00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.000
you know it's sizable definitely

00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:57.040
but I do archive a lot of stuff

00:14:57.040 --> 00:14:58.480
so that might be a slight difference

00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.880
between uh my myself and carl voight

00:15:00.880 --> 00:15:02.079
even though I don't remember if they

00:15:02.079 --> 00:15:04.880
actually archive stuff

00:15:04.880 --> 00:15:06.639
so does it not consume more resources

00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:08.480
and time to load multiple files

00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.839
files than a large file or the same

00:15:10.839 --> 00:15:12.560
content now

00:15:12.560 --> 00:15:15.839
theoretically yes having many files

00:15:15.839 --> 00:15:19.279
open concurrently is slightly slower

00:15:19.279 --> 00:15:22.240
than having one main file opened

00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.160
now the problem is for those of you who

00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:25.279
have large files

00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.199
you may have noticed that when you are

00:15:27.199 --> 00:15:29.360
scrolling in a very large file

00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:32.560
it starts taking quite a bit of time why

00:15:32.560 --> 00:15:34.480
it's because you know in old mode you

00:15:34.480 --> 00:15:35.920
have a lot of content

00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:38.959
that is hidden so when you have

00:15:38.959 --> 00:15:40.959
the view mode which hides as much stuff

00:15:40.959 --> 00:15:43.040
as possible means meaning that you only

00:15:43.040 --> 00:15:43.600
see

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:45.360
the top heading and I'm checking the

00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:46.880
time I mean don't worry I'm I'm finished

00:15:46.880 --> 00:15:50.240
on this one

00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:52.160
when you're hiding a whole lot of stuff

00:15:52.160 --> 00:15:53.360
you know orgmo

00:15:53.360 --> 00:15:54.720
needs to keep track or I should say

00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.959
emacs needs to keep track of which areas

00:15:56.959 --> 00:15:58.160
of text to show

00:15:58.160 --> 00:16:00.560
and which areas of text to hide and the

00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:02.320
problem is that when you're hiding stuff

00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.480
let's say you're moving from line the

00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.320
first heading to the second heading

00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.639
but you've got like 10 000 lines between

00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:09.839
those two headings

00:16:09.839 --> 00:16:11.519
well he max needs to compute the

00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.680
difference between the two passages

00:16:13.680 --> 00:16:15.680
and that takes quite a lot of time and

00:16:15.680 --> 00:16:17.040
in that that's my

00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:18.560
why you might realize that it's a little

00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:20.560
choppy when you start scrolling in large

00:16:20.560 --> 00:16:21.199
files

00:16:21.199 --> 00:16:22.560
anyway I could be answering questions

00:16:22.560 --> 00:16:24.480
about org mode for literally two hours

00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:25.120
straight

00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:26.720
so I'm gonna end it over to the next

00:16:26.720 --> 00:16:28.639
speakers and I'll be seeing

00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.759
seeing you guys a little later thank you

00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:33.440
very much leo

00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:36.959
oh thank you yes bye

00:16:36.959 --> 00:16:39.839
bye