path: root/2020/subtitles/emacsconf-2020--12-one-big-ass-org-file-or-multiple-tiny-ones-finally-the-end-of-the-debate--leo-vivier-autogen.sbv

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I mean we are ahead of the schedule a

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little bit but I mean we also was a

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little bit earlier in the day

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so yeah yeah I'd say that's fine go for

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it take it away

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sure thank you so am I live already

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you are now unmuted um yep your life

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hello

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spell it so I'll just start the timer to

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make sure that I don't go overboard

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all right so you are now muted okay good

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to go now so

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hello again everyone so I hope you had

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well quite a lot of talks

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ever since the last one I did and all

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more interesting

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uh one after the other so um

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you know I'm a bit in a bit of a weird

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spot right now because I'm supposed to

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be presenting to you as you can see on

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my screen

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one big-ass awk file multiple tiny ones

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finally the end of the debate

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and it sounds about as clickbaity

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as you can possibly get with those

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topics and by the way

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uh credit where credit is due the title

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is not mine it's actually from bastian

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gary the current old

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maintainer and yeah I wanted to

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talk to you a little bit today about

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this question because

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if you are used to going on our slash

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emacs you know the subreddit that we

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have

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if you go on I can use often you know

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it's a question that

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you see pop-up every once in a while

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should I be using

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one big file or should I be using

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a lot of tiny files and I believe you

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know

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we've got defenders on both sides if I

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just show you one examples

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so we have carl voigt okay so he's one

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of the organizers for the conference

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he hears the guy who probably has the

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biggest augment files

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right now in all the people I know and

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god knows I know plenty of people use

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old mode

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but if you just look at this line I hope

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it's not too small you just

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make it a little larger but

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carl basically has a file with 126

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000 lines and I'm just going to pause

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and try to have you imagine how large a

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file it actually is

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just think about all of these lines

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being tasked in your days

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think about all those lines being about

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little thoughts

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you know that you've had throughout the

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day or project that you were working on

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and it's massive and you know one of the

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problem that

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uh calvoit actually approaches on

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this topic is that it takes him roughly

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20 seconds to get his old agenda going

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which is a massive amount of time

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I mean we have very fast computers now

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you know ever since e-max was created in

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1976

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computers I have no idea how much faster

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they've gotten

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and yet you know for earth 1000 lines

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emac seems to be choking and it's

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certainly not reasonable in a way to

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have to wait 20 seconds

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just for your entire file to be passed

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so basically what I want to do

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and by the way I forgot to do the

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presentation but I'm leova I did this

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before for those who were around

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and I um help maintain a software which

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is called orgrom

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and that's the expertise that I have on

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the topic

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actually if you go online I do have a

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github page I will make sure that you

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have all the links available afterwards

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but I do publish my init files

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and you can see if you scroll at the

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bottom I have a little demonstration

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which shows you

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the fancy things that I can do with my

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old mood setup and that might be even

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interesting

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in lights of the talk you've just had

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about gtd stuff because

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the first one is about how I end all my

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projects the second one is about

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the flow from a task uh as I work on it

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so

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I won't spend too much time on this but

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basically that's my expertise

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I have spent eight years working with

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working with org mode

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three of them actually thinking about

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writing packages

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and the thing is if I go into a little

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bit of details and obviously it's only a

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lighting talk so I won't have time to

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actually go really in depth about it but

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there is something

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in the ultimate libraries which is

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called org elements

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and you have the name right there org

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element.el

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dot el being for e-lisp file and as you

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can see

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the page it's on the work wiki so it's

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accessible by everyone

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but it's basically the api that

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org mode uses to pass all mode files

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so for those who don't know passing

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means basically

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checking a file checking all the content

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of the file and extracting all the

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information that we need from that file

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and as you can imagine you all have

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augmented files in your mind

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well you know they can be fairly complex

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you know you can have properties

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you can have contextual information like

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if you write a line

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which starts at column zero which means

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at the left

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you know it doesn't have the same

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meaning whether or not it is

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before the beginning of a headline or if

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it is after the beginning of a red line

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you know it's going to be

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relatively different hierarchically

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speaking

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and so the problem when it comes to the

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question of

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many files versus one big file or

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few big files is that we always have to

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keep in mind

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what org elements want you to do

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and the thing is there are plenty of

0:05:15.680,0:05:18.400
problems when it comes to passing file

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the first one

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being obviously that emacs is a single

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thread

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process or has some threading

0:05:24.880,0:05:28.639
capabilities we're not going to go into

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the details right now that's not my goal

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but it makes it incredibly hard to

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parallelize uh passing processes as

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we currently with the current technology

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and so you'd have to imagine that if you

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have a very large files if you go back

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to the example of carl voice from before

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100 000 lines that means that you have

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to scan

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through every single line basically

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because sometimes let's just say that

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you have a property drawer for instance

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which tells you oh okay uh this tree

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has the tag foo so the problem is there

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are multiple ways for you

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to define a tag okay so you can use the

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usual way which is about wrapping in

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columns the tag at the end of a heading

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so for instance if I I'm not going to

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switch to emac that's going to waste too

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much time

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but that's one way to say your time but

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say

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you have tag inheritance which means

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that when you have a parent with a tag

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you also want the child to inherit the

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tag so if you have

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first heading with the typhoo you have

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the first subheading

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and the tag foo is implied now imagine

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having to do that with a file that is

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completely nested

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a file that has maybe 9 10

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11 levels of depth to it

0:06:47.280,0:06:51.039
it's mind-bogglingly complicated for the

0:06:49.039,0:06:52.639
software to do that knowing that I've

0:06:51.039,0:06:55.919
told you about tags

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but any property can be inheritable

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anything like priorities even though why

0:06:58.639,0:07:03.759
would you do this

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you can have groups you can all this and

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as someone who went through the trouble

0:07:05.599,0:07:08.560
of optimizing his old agenda so

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basically if we go back to the

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gifts gifs oh god we've already had this

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discussion

0:07:12.160,0:07:16.400
between the git and magit and now I've

0:07:14.479,0:07:18.080
started jeff and gif and I only have one

0:07:16.400,0:07:19.599
more minute left to do so so let's just

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say I'm going to say gif

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just to spice people so if you go on

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the way I organize my agenda what I did

0:07:26.880,0:07:30.960
in order to keep my agenda build time

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under two seconds

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is that I've rewritten a whole lot of

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codes to be able to pass my organ gender

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files

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so the thing is I'm going to be talking

0:07:40.080,0:07:43.440
more about this later

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I only have let's say one minutes to

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conclude

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so as you've gathered I'm not going to

0:07:47.440,0:07:51.039
be giving you the answer

0:07:48.479,0:07:53.440
right now I'm going to be talking about

0:07:51.039,0:07:55.680
orgrum a little later which is about

0:07:53.440,0:07:57.759
following the principle of having many

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small files

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but as someone who has been using

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one large file to manage my life you

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know I'm sitting on the fence

0:08:04.879,0:08:10.560
I do not know which one is the best

0:08:08.319,0:08:12.240
but I hope that my presentation has

0:08:10.560,0:08:15.199
given you a little id

0:08:12.240,0:08:15.520
of what goes on behind the principles

0:08:15.199,0:08:16.560
and

0:08:15.520,0:08:18.560
you also need to think about the

0:08:16.560,0:08:19.120
philosophy behind the organization of

0:08:18.560,0:08:21.039
your notes

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but I hope to be approaching this topic

0:08:21.039,0:08:25.360
with you in about

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two hours or so maybe one hour actually

0:08:25.360,0:08:28.960
so I'm actually finished I've decided to

0:08:27.520,0:08:31.520
leave you two minutes of questions

0:08:28.960,0:08:32.880
so uh if someone could feed me the

0:08:31.520,0:08:34.399
question that might be best

0:08:32.880,0:08:36.240
because I don't want oh actually I can

0:08:34.399,0:08:39.919
just open the year

0:08:36.240,0:08:40.800
I can just open it give me a second okay

0:08:39.919,0:08:43.039
ah

0:08:40.800,0:08:43.839
just loading up huh I might stop showing

0:08:43.039,0:08:46.959
my screen

0:08:43.839,0:08:47.519
that might make it easier so I mean if

0:08:46.959,0:08:49.360
you can make

0:08:47.519,0:08:52.000
myself big now on the screen that would

0:08:49.360,0:08:55.839
be splendid yeah sure

0:08:52.000,0:08:58.720
thank you so uh where are we

0:08:55.839,0:09:00.160
question 12. okay so what's better one

0:08:58.720,0:09:02.160
big file

0:09:00.160,0:09:03.120
I did is it did a job to tell me that I

0:09:02.160,0:09:04.240
haven't answered the question because

0:09:03.120,0:09:06.320
someone just

0:09:04.240,0:09:08.080
asked me the question well personally if

0:09:06.320,0:09:08.560
I were to give you a quick answer in

0:09:08.080,0:09:11.600
like

0:09:08.560,0:09:13.920
20 seconds personally I think it's a

0:09:11.600,0:09:15.680
question that is contextually based

0:09:13.920,0:09:17.839
do you want something that is efficient

0:09:15.680,0:09:21.200
as far as optimization is concerned

0:09:17.839,0:09:23.440
then you need to think about

0:09:21.200,0:09:24.640
this and personally for all the

0:09:23.440,0:09:26.640
organization that I do

0:09:24.640,0:09:27.760
all this stuff all the to-do's that I

0:09:26.640,0:09:30.080
handle

0:09:27.760,0:09:31.519
I like to do this in one simple big file

0:09:30.080,0:09:33.760
because you benefit from all the

0:09:31.519,0:09:36.320
refiling capabilities of log mode

0:09:33.760,0:09:37.200
so I would do that but for knowledge

0:09:36.320,0:09:40.080
management

0:09:37.200,0:09:41.279
for note-taking and all this well I'd

0:09:40.080,0:09:42.959
much rather follow the

0:09:41.279,0:09:44.480
orgrom way of doing things which is

0:09:42.959,0:09:48.240
about having many

0:09:44.480,0:09:50.000
small files okay I'm not getting any

0:09:48.240,0:09:52.080
more questions I'm not sure if there is

0:09:50.000,0:09:53.040
one on ise that could be fed to me

0:09:52.080,0:09:56.399
otherwise I'm

0:09:53.040,0:09:57.040
happy to to uh pass over to the next uh

0:09:56.399,0:09:59.360
speaker

0:09:57.040,0:10:01.360
and by the way just before I finish your

0:09:59.360,0:10:04.399
world is a lie it's not a three-piece

0:10:01.360,0:10:06.520
suit I'm wearing jeans below so I hope

0:10:04.399,0:10:09.610
that satisfies your curiosity

0:10:06.520,0:10:09.610
[Music]

0:10:10.640,0:10:15.040
okay there's one more question appearing

0:10:12.640,0:10:17.680
but otherwise one big file to have

0:10:15.040,0:10:19.760
everything so I'm putting you on the

0:10:17.680,0:10:21.040
spot I believe it was such a short talk

0:10:19.760,0:10:23.600
you know the problem is

0:10:21.040,0:10:24.720
I just wanted to give you a little

0:10:23.600,0:10:26.959
answer

0:10:24.720,0:10:27.920
a little you know path of thinking on

0:10:26.959,0:10:29.839
this topic

0:10:27.920,0:10:31.600
but obviously it's a topic I could be

0:10:29.839,0:10:33.200
spending 40 minutes on but

0:10:31.600,0:10:35.120
I'm going to be drained you're going to

0:10:33.200,0:10:35.680
be drained nobody's going to be happy if

0:10:35.120,0:10:37.920
I do this

0:10:35.680,0:10:37.920
so

0:10:39.440,0:10:42.880
and someone asked me if I switch between

0:10:41.200,0:10:46.560
british and french accents

0:10:42.880,0:10:48.480
so a little a little secret for you um

0:10:46.560,0:10:49.760
when I'm stressed I tend to relate to a

0:10:48.480,0:10:53.760
french accent

0:10:49.760,0:10:56.160
so you can measure the amount of stress

0:10:53.760,0:10:58.880
that I'm feeling during this talk

0:10:56.160,0:11:00.560
with the amount of h's that I drop and

0:10:58.880,0:11:02.720
the amount of uh

0:11:00.560,0:11:04.399
sheer fright that you can see sometimes

0:11:02.720,0:11:07.200
in my eyes when I'm thinking about what

0:11:04.399,0:11:07.200
to say next

0:11:08.240,0:11:11.360
all right sir so I mean do you believe

0:11:10.880,0:11:14.240
we can

0:11:11.360,0:11:15.519
leave it at that and uh I'll be you

0:11:14.240,0:11:17.040
people will see plenty more with me

0:11:15.519,0:11:20.000
later on anyway

0:11:17.040,0:11:20.640
right um so looking at the schedule I

0:11:20.000,0:11:23.920
think

0:11:20.640,0:11:27.120
your talk has until like 202 meaning

0:11:23.920,0:11:28.000
like five or six minutes from now oh

0:11:27.120,0:11:30.000
right

0:11:28.000,0:11:31.680
yeah so if you do like to take like one

0:11:30.000,0:11:33.920
or two questions to add two more

0:11:31.680,0:11:37.040
questions by all means

0:11:33.920,0:11:38.320
okay so uh someone has asked me what is

0:11:37.040,0:11:40.640
the emacs icon

0:11:38.320,0:11:42.880
icon sorry see another french accent

0:11:40.640,0:11:44.880
here uh in my status bar

0:11:42.880,0:11:46.640
uh oh sorry I'm not sharing anymore uh I

0:11:44.880,0:11:49.200
might just share again just so that

0:11:46.640,0:11:53.120
everyone can catch a glimpse of that

0:11:49.200,0:11:54.880
uh there we go allow

0:11:53.120,0:11:56.240
so it should be so if you could make me

0:11:54.880,0:11:56.959
small again I'm in I'm not sure if it's

0:11:56.240,0:12:00.480
going to do it

0:11:56.959,0:12:01.839
by itself but I do have a little icon

0:12:00.480,0:12:04.480
here in my status bar

0:12:01.839,0:12:05.760
which is basically a way to interact

0:12:04.480,0:12:07.279
with all protocol

0:12:05.760,0:12:09.120
uh I'm not going to look for it right

0:12:07.279,0:12:10.800
now but it's uh

0:12:09.120,0:12:12.399
it's a browser extension that is

0:12:10.800,0:12:15.680
developed by one of my friends

0:12:12.399,0:12:16.160
over at ranger whose name is v phone and

0:12:15.680,0:12:18.240
uh

0:12:16.160,0:12:19.680
it's very useful I'm someone who uses a

0:12:18.240,0:12:22.320
lot of uh

0:12:19.680,0:12:23.040
of uh all protocols and by the way I

0:12:22.320,0:12:25.279
used to teach

0:12:23.040,0:12:27.279
english okay to high schoolers and they

0:12:25.279,0:12:29.600
were supremely worried

0:12:27.279,0:12:30.800
when I show them my status line and they

0:12:29.600,0:12:34.000
so kill

0:12:30.800,0:12:36.560
and explore in my status line so as

0:12:34.000,0:12:37.839
fellow emacs users you know that

0:12:36.560,0:12:40.880
obviously kill

0:12:37.839,0:12:44.320
means to kill a selection of text and

0:12:40.880,0:12:47.279
keep it inside your clipboard

0:12:44.320,0:12:48.320
but for my students who you know they

0:12:47.279,0:12:51.600
were very worried

0:12:48.320,0:12:53.600
about what their professor was up to

0:12:51.600,0:12:55.120
doing his nights

0:12:53.600,0:12:56.560
so let's see if we've got more questions

0:12:55.120,0:12:57.920
so I'm showing you the questions on the

0:12:56.560,0:13:00.560
rainbow so let's see if

0:12:57.920,0:13:01.920
we've got more so people are posting a

0:13:00.560,0:13:03.920
lot of questions now

0:13:01.920,0:13:06.399
so how do you feel about archiving files

0:13:03.920,0:13:09.360
in old mode and how can that work in

0:13:06.399,0:13:10.240
so one of the thing when we think about

0:13:09.360,0:13:13.920
optimization

0:13:10.240,0:13:16.240
is yes archiving done trees

0:13:13.920,0:13:17.920
is a good idea because it means that if

0:13:16.240,0:13:18.720
we go back to the org element the way it

0:13:17.920,0:13:20.399
works

0:13:18.720,0:13:22.079
and we'll get into technical details

0:13:20.399,0:13:24.079
afterwards I'm giving a presentation

0:13:22.079,0:13:26.880
about all grown technical suspect

0:13:24.079,0:13:28.399
aspects sorry so I'll have a chance to

0:13:26.880,0:13:31.360
expand a little more on this

0:13:28.399,0:13:32.160
but basically all elements need to uh

0:13:31.360,0:13:35.279
every time

0:13:32.160,0:13:38.320
it sees a to do it has to consider it

0:13:35.279,0:13:40.000
even though it is a done to do why

0:13:38.320,0:13:41.839
because let's say for instance that in

0:13:40.000,0:13:45.519
your agenda you want to activate

0:13:41.839,0:13:48.959
log mode which is going to show the

0:13:45.519,0:13:49.519
tasks which are done now you could be

0:13:48.959,0:13:51.440
clever

0:13:49.519,0:13:53.360
and say oh okay the old agenda does not

0:13:51.440,0:13:54.880
need to show don items so it's not going

0:13:53.360,0:13:56.959
to look for them

0:13:54.880,0:13:58.720
but the problem is that all elements is

0:13:56.959,0:13:59.519
always called it always needs to pass

0:13:58.720,0:14:01.839
the buffer

0:13:59.519,0:14:03.519
you know uh nicodego as you who is the

0:14:01.839,0:14:05.040
french developer who's worked a whole

0:14:03.519,0:14:07.440
lot on all elements

0:14:05.040,0:14:08.399
has gone through a lot of trouble to

0:14:07.440,0:14:11.600
optimize all

0:14:08.399,0:14:13.279
elements but the problem is

0:14:11.600,0:14:14.720
there's just so much that we can do with

0:14:13.279,0:14:18.560
a concurrent process

0:14:14.720,0:14:21.120
and right now it leaves somewhat

0:14:18.560,0:14:22.079
uh you know things to be desired but

0:14:21.120,0:14:24.800
we're working on it

0:14:22.079,0:14:25.839
and one more time I feel like I spent

0:14:24.800,0:14:28.000
half of this talk

0:14:25.839,0:14:29.360
teasing my next talks but I'll be

0:14:28.000,0:14:31.279
talking more about this

0:14:29.360,0:14:32.639
in my future talks in about one to two

0:14:31.279,0:14:34.959
hours

0:14:32.639,0:14:36.079
so continuing with questions how big are

0:14:34.959,0:14:37.760
my org files

0:14:36.079,0:14:39.839
so in the background I'm just going to

0:14:37.760,0:14:40.720
check how many lines I have in my main

0:14:39.839,0:14:42.959
file

0:14:40.720,0:14:44.079
so in my own file so the one I told you

0:14:42.959,0:14:47.279
about where I keep all

0:14:44.079,0:14:50.720
my to do gtd stuff I have

0:14:47.279,0:14:54.000
38 000 lines which is

0:14:50.720,0:14:57.040
you know it's sizable definitely

0:14:54.000,0:14:58.480
but I do archive a lot of stuff

0:14:57.040,0:15:00.880
so that might be a slight difference

0:14:58.480,0:15:02.079
between uh my myself and carl voight

0:15:00.880,0:15:04.880
even though I don't remember if they

0:15:02.079,0:15:06.639
actually archive stuff

0:15:04.880,0:15:08.480
so does it not consume more resources

0:15:06.639,0:15:10.839
and time to load multiple files

0:15:08.480,0:15:12.560
files than a large file or the same

0:15:10.839,0:15:15.839
content now

0:15:12.560,0:15:19.279
theoretically yes having many files

0:15:15.839,0:15:22.240
open concurrently is slightly slower

0:15:19.279,0:15:24.160
than having one main file opened

0:15:22.240,0:15:25.279
now the problem is for those of you who

0:15:24.160,0:15:27.199
have large files

0:15:25.279,0:15:29.360
you may have noticed that when you are

0:15:27.199,0:15:32.560
scrolling in a very large file

0:15:29.360,0:15:34.480
it starts taking quite a bit of time why

0:15:32.560,0:15:35.920
it's because you know in old mode you

0:15:34.480,0:15:38.959
have a lot of content

0:15:35.920,0:15:40.959
that is hidden so when you have

0:15:38.959,0:15:43.040
the view mode which hides as much stuff

0:15:40.959,0:15:43.600
as possible means meaning that you only

0:15:43.040,0:15:45.360
see

0:15:43.600,0:15:46.880
the top heading and I'm checking the

0:15:45.360,0:15:49.360
time I mean don't worry I'm I'm finished

0:15:46.880,0:15:49.360
on this one

0:15:50.240,0:15:53.360
when you're hiding a whole lot of stuff

0:15:52.160,0:15:54.720
you know orgmo

0:15:53.360,0:15:56.959
needs to keep track or I should say

0:15:54.720,0:15:58.160
emacs needs to keep track of which areas

0:15:56.959,0:16:00.560
of text to show

0:15:58.160,0:16:02.320
and which areas of text to hide and the

0:16:00.560,0:16:04.480
problem is that when you're hiding stuff

0:16:02.320,0:16:06.320
let's say you're moving from line the

0:16:04.480,0:16:08.639
first heading to the second heading

0:16:06.320,0:16:09.839
but you've got like 10 000 lines between

0:16:08.639,0:16:11.519
those two headings

0:16:09.839,0:16:13.680
well he max needs to compute the

0:16:11.519,0:16:15.680
difference between the two passages

0:16:13.680,0:16:17.040
and that takes quite a lot of time and

0:16:15.680,0:16:18.560
in that that's my

0:16:17.040,0:16:20.560
why you might realize that it's a little

0:16:18.560,0:16:21.199
choppy when you start scrolling in large

0:16:20.560,0:16:22.560
files

0:16:21.199,0:16:24.480
anyway I could be answering questions

0:16:22.560,0:16:25.120
about org mode for literally two hours

0:16:24.480,0:16:26.720
straight

0:16:25.120,0:16:28.639
so I'm gonna end it over to the next

0:16:26.720,0:16:31.759
speakers and I'll be seeing

0:16:28.639,0:16:33.440
seeing you guys a little later thank you

0:16:31.759,0:16:36.959
very much leo

0:16:33.440,0:16:39.839
oh thank you yes bye

0:16:36.959,0:16:39.839
bye