path: root/2020/info/39.md

# NonGNU ELPA
Richard Stallman

TBD - plans for a NonGNU ELPA that will be easy to enable and contribute to without signing copyright assignment papers

<!-- from the pad --->

-   Actual start and end time (EST): Start: 2020-11-29T11.09.04 ; Q&A: 2020-11-29T11.15.59; End: 2020-11-29T12.04.31


# Questions  (speaker can answer in any order or choose which ones to respond to)


## Lunch break is coming up - it's okay to continue this conversation in the pad or IRC if you like (or continue, if you like)


### Okay! Wrapping up, thank you so much for live questions and answers


## Q30: Would you mind sharing your Emacs configuration files?


### RMS: Configuration files are personal and will not be shared.


## Q29: Have you ever looked into magit?


### RMS: No, but I might when it gets merged into Emacs.


### RMS mentioned he heard it's being worked on and it indeed is, tarsius wrote about the progress on that on emacs-devel some time ago.


## Q28: Are there any more interesting projects you have in mind over and above NonGNU ELPA and look for people to contribute?


## Q27: Is interfacing with non-free hardware enablement libraries like OpenGL or Vulkan with free code considered a "big compromise" ? (those libraries are for hardware accelerated graphics, if you aren't familiar)


## Q26: How often do you personally use Emacs?


### Most of the day. Occasionally uses libre office and media players. Occasionally even SSH into a machine that runs Emacs on it.


### Read PDF files a lot. Would be nice to read and edit them in Emacs.


### (ann: pdf-tools might help.)


### Uses Xournal ( <http://xournal.sourceforge.net/> ) to annotate PDFs.


## Q25: What is your opinion on higher education, especially given the current situation with COVID-19 where students are required to use non-free software to comply with their courses?


### He'd resist. However, he admits that he is in a position where he can resist, especially as a Free Software advocator.


### <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/saying-no-even-once.html>


### However, there are a lot of points in-between saying "no" all the time and never saying "no" at all. You can still advocate Free Software and state your reluctance.


### exactly as a student that is tho only one in the department that uses GNU/Linux, if something doesn't work its my fault for using fedora (even when windows install doesnt work either) and i am on my own.


## Q24: Is there any plan to moving more packages from core emacs into ELPA? Would you be opposed to it? For example: newsticker, libraries with niche appeal.


## Q23: How do you see the future of GNU Emacs ? (btw, thank you !)


### RMS: I don't see the future.


### "From past experiences, there will be challenges."


## Q22: If you knew that you would get hit by a bus tomorrow, say because of a fortune-teller, what would you leave behind in terms of advice for stewardship of Emacs and its future?


### Focus on keeping the community strong in defending freedom.


### If given the choice to have more people developing the software or defending the software, choose the latter.


### Guard your soul carefully. :P


### (The question could be rephrased with, say a brain tumor or something. Not to be morbid! just wondering if you had such thoughts. about guidance


### Or even just "what do you want your legacy to be defined as?"


## Q21: Which are your preferred packages that you usually use?


## Q20: What tools from pre-UNIX days do you miss?


### DDT as login shell (!)  (<- didn't he say gdb? don't think so. gdb is not pre-UNIX as it's GNU) NO.   DDT was (I think) a TOPS20 thing.

-   What is DDT?  Dynamic Debugging Tool. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_debugging_technique> (I guess)  <https://www.livingcomputers.org/UI/UserDocs/TOPS-20-v7-1/3_TOPS-20_DDT_(Debugger)>\_Manual.pdf


## Q19: Magic wand time: what would you change about free-software? (aside "yay, we won")  [ETA: magic wand="make a wish about what you want to see happen, have happended differently, etc."]

-   Don't give up!  20yrs is nothing!  We'll get 'em yet.💪

-   What is Magic wand time? Nah, if you can use the magic to change anything

-   Show everyone why most software needs to be copylefted, so that our community does not need to use software produced by proprietary software developers.


## Q18: What do you recommend to a recent graduate who wants to get his first job but can't find one that deals with free-software and every job or interview he gets it's non-free software related?


### Very sad thing. I would get a different kind of job. I would live cheaply (more flexibility).


## Q17: You've been a very important part of the Free Software movement, some argue the most important part. I very much appreciate that! Thank you. I think it's necessary to encourage more diversity within Emacs, however, that's difficult to do with the instances of sexual harassment that have come out. Are you or do you plan to work on addressing those situations and preventing further situations going forward?


### Not going to be answered. (Everyone, please also remember CoC)


### I will forgive them if they stop bullying.


### Emacs is being extended in Emacs Lisp, and implementing something else will be hard to nearly impossible, though nice.

-   Note from RMS: "If someone who has condemned me unjustly takes it back, that will make it safe for me to empathize with any feelings of hurt that pers might have felt as a result of the misunderstanding and I will be very glad to show compassion."


## Q16: How is the current state of the work in progress pagure git repository? Is it going to have the main Emacs repository on it?


### That's more of an FSF project (the FSF forge project).  There is ongoing work on it by the FSF tech team. Also agreement to possibly run another VM of the forge software for the GNU project.


## Q14: Which is your favorite programming language ? if lisp, which variant?


### Don't exactly have a favourite variant.


### Emacs-Lisp was originally used in an environment with only a .5MB user memory environment. That also contributed to the design of elisp.


## Q13: Is it ok to use the AGPL for Emacs packages?


### Yes.


## Q12: Won't the non-GNU ELPA link to non-free sites like GitHub? This does: <https://elpa.gnu.org/nongnu/caml.html>


### Mistake to talk about a non-free site. A site is not a program. Programs


### It also depends on whether the JavaScript is non-free.


### see <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html> for a description of what Free Software is.


### Same for GNU ELPA <https://elpa.gnu.org/packages/company.html>


## Q11: Who gets to make the final decision regarding NonGNU ELPA? Is this a community decision or something that you get the last word on?


### The Emacs maintainers will be in charge of this.


## Q10: Which distro of GNU/Linux do you use? guix? or something else?


### Trisquel <https://trisquel.info/> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trisquel>


## Q9: Are there any plans to implement security considerations in NonGNU Elpa? Required code signing or other?


### Probably should. Emacs maintainers verifying can take care of the security. With automatic copying, we'll need to make sure we're fetching the packages securely


## Q8: Do you / have you used Vi(m) or evil mode?


### No.


## Q7: When you wrote that you could add a package to non-GNU ELPA, are you implying that you would add packages with or without package maintainers knowledge?


### Yes. Of course! The packages are free software. Everyone is entitled to redistribute them. That's the idea behind free software.


### The idea, that packages in a package archives must only be mirrors contradicts(?) the idea of free software.


### If a package is being maintained by developers cooperating with NonGNU ELPA, then they're (the NonELPA maintainers) are fine with it, as there is enough to do.


## Q6: Why do you insist on using 'per' and 'pers' when it's clear the LBGTQIA+ community is generally not happy with that language?


### not happy with using "they" as singular, causes gratuitous confusion


### do not accept the demands of other people re: changing my country grammar


### stallman.org/articles/genderneutrality.html - not a GNU Project policy, personal ideas on the subject


### <https://stallman.org/articles/genderless-pronouns.html> seems to be the correct link


### If you feel offended: contact RMS privately and explain your reasons


## Q5: Any thoughts of packages being added as <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_open_source> (a school of thought discarding licenses altogether) into ELPA ?


### Not familiar with the URL, unlikely to have much in common. Disregarding licenses - basically asking to lose. Not going to disregard the question of whether the software we recommend to people is free software or not. That's basically blindfolding yourself to the legal issues. If you want to contribute to the free world, put free licenses on your code

-   <https://gnu.org/licenses>

-   <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-recommendations.html>

-   <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html>


## Q4: Is it possible to work with the MELPA team to integrate that into Emacs in a better way?


### No. The goal doesn't make sense. MELPA, the way it's done, doesn't belong within Emacs. (Copyright assignments unfeasible). Could MELPA be merged with non-GNU ELPA? MELPA doesn't modify packages, puts packages in with only a little bit of checking. There are a lot of packages in MELPA that we'd like to get into non-GNU ELPA. They've got to be looked at one by one. If MELPA contributors want to get involved, that would be great. Haven't tried asking them, still getting things set up.


## Q3: I don't quite get the benefits of a non-GNU ELPA with respect to other archives such as MELPA. Can you please give use some more details on what you have in mind? Are you seeking for control?


### I hope that people now see the benefits.


## Q2: Does nonGNU ELPA already exist? Or is this a sort of "plan" for the future?


### In between. The creation of it has started. There's an archive and you can download packages. There's a repository to put it in. It's not supposed to be like ELPA where there's one repo for everything. Some packages will make an arrangement with the developers who will do things as things should be done, and their code will be copied over automatically (or manually with verification). In other cases, we'll need to have our own repo for particular packages. Still working out the procedures, how to make the arrangements with developers, etc.


## Q1: What is an example of a package currently in a non-ELPA repo that does not work well with Emacs? Since integration with Emacs is described as a problem.


### s.el - that made me aware that there's an issue here. Beautifully written package, very useful for people. There's just one thing wrong with it - it gobbled up the namespace of symbols starting with s-. I was shocked to discover that someone had used such a short prefix without coordinating. Any attempt to use s- for anything else = problem. New symbol renaming feature - the idea is that you rename that file to something else, and then you define symbol renaming to run the same code without interfering with global namespace. &#x2026; We can put packages in non-GNU ELPA and make changes to them to help them fit in.


# Notes


## ELPA was created to make it possible to release Emacs packages independently of Emacs releases.


## Package archives in general lead to a boost of package development/generation. However, those packages were created without notifying the GNU Emacs team/GNU ELPA managers.


## NonGNU ELPA will not require copyright assignments, but must be free (as in freedom) software.


## GNU ELPA is one big git repository, and giving someone access grants them access to everything.


## Note from RMS: "If someone who has condemned me unjustly takes it back, that will make it safe for me to empathize with any feelings of hurt that pers might have felt as a result of the misunderstanding and I will be very glad to show compassion."