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diff --git a/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-llm--emacs-editors-and-llm-driven-workflows--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt b/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-llm--emacs-editors-and-llm-driven-workflows--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f35c2d27 --- /dev/null +++ b/2025/captions/emacsconf-2025-llm--emacs-editors-and-llm-driven-workflows--andrew-hyatt--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1591 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.759 +So let's, I'm just going to answer + +00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:04.399 +the questions as I see them on the pad. + +00:00:04.400 --> 00:00:07.079 +So yeah, this first question is really good. + +00:00:07.080 --> 00:00:09.919 +And I think it's actually this great thing + +00:00:09.920 --> 00:00:12.719 +that I did not mention is that like, + +00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:14.119 +if you have unsaved buffers, + +00:00:14.120 --> 00:00:17.679 +which is, you know, when you're actually doing editing, + +00:00:17.680 --> 00:00:21.999 +most buffers are unsaved. + +00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:25.959 +really you need something tightly integrated with Emacs + +00:00:25.960 --> 00:00:27.479 +to deal with that. + +00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:29.039 +So things like, you know, + +00:00:29.040 --> 00:00:30.239 +I demonstrated Copilot, + +00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:32.519 +I demonstrated Gptel, + +00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.439 +things like those things, things like Ellama, + +00:00:35.440 --> 00:00:38.719 +these things will all work with unsaved buffers + +00:00:38.720 --> 00:00:43.959 +because they work via, you know, the input is the buffer. + +00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:45.199 +as opposed to a file. + +00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:48.519 +Things like Claude Code, Gemini Code, et cetera, + +00:00:48.520 --> 00:00:49.519 +those are working with files. + +00:00:49.520 --> 00:00:51.639 +They have no idea what is going on with your buffers. + +00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:55.119 +And it could be that you can solve this problem + +00:00:55.120 --> 00:00:56.799 +by using this thing called MCP, + +00:00:56.800 --> 00:01:02.839 +which kind of gives the coding agent + +00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.119 +a way to see anything in particular. + +00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:06.799 +In this case, it would be Emacs + +00:01:06.800 --> 00:01:07.799 +and the state of your buffers. + +00:01:07.800 --> 00:01:11.319 +But I think that's not a particularly great solution + +00:01:11.320 --> 00:01:13.839 +if that's how you want to work. + +00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:15.719 +But I think that's kind of like + +00:01:15.720 --> 00:01:17.359 +if you're in the Claude Code + +00:01:17.360 --> 00:01:19.759 +that kind of world where you know things are happening, + +00:01:19.760 --> 00:01:24.679 +basically through a terminal. + +00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:26.399 +It's okay, like you typically + +00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:28.639 +would not be doing a mix of things. + +00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:30.119 +You would just be doing things either + +00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.399 +in one place or the other place. + +00:01:32.400 --> 00:01:33.599 +You know, it could be that you switch off + +00:01:33.600 --> 00:01:34.359 +from one place to another, + +00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:36.399 +but you wouldn't be doing both at the same time. + +00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:40.279 +And it's kind of a, you tend to just fall into one, + +00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:41.679 +you know, + +00:01:41.680 --> 00:01:44.759 +editing outside the editor or editing inside the editor. + +00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:47.039 +And I find myself switching between the two + +00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:48.959 +when I use those kinds of tools. + +00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:51.439 +So David, let me interrupt you for just one moment. + +00:01:51.440 --> 00:01:53.519 +I want to just take care to read out + +00:01:53.520 --> 00:01:55.079 +the question that we're answering. + +00:01:55.080 --> 00:01:58.999 +The question was, my biggest question with AI code editors + +00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:00.999 +trying to integrate with Emacs is, + +00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.599 +are the AI code editors able to read unsaved buffers + +00:02:04.600 --> 00:02:06.319 +and not just saved files? + +00:02:06.320 --> 00:02:11.719 +Sorry. Yes. Yeah. Thank you for reminding me to. + +00:02:11.720 --> 00:02:13.519 +I will read the questions from now on. + +00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.599 +But yes, that's what I think about. + +00:02:16.600 --> 00:02:20.319 +that interesting questions about unsaved buffers. + +00:02:20.320 --> 00:02:22.239 +The next question is, + +00:02:22.240 --> 00:02:23.799 +I don't agree with the comment you made + +00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:25.199 +about VS code usage dying out + +00:02:25.200 --> 00:02:26.719 +because I see companies and products + +00:02:26.720 --> 00:02:28.879 +pushing for tightly integrated agent + +00:02:28.880 --> 00:02:31.319 +and products like Windsurf. + +00:02:31.320 --> 00:02:33.239 +So thoughts on that? + +00:02:33.240 --> 00:02:35.879 +Yeah, I mean, it's really hard + +00:02:35.880 --> 00:02:36.999 +to be certain of anything, + +00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:38.439 +like things are changing very fast + +00:02:38.440 --> 00:02:40.639 +and it's very hard to predict the future. + +00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:47.839 +But the trend I see is that um, + +00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:50.919 +the sort of outside editing experience + +00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:53.519 +where you just kind of instruct a model, + +00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:56.759 +what to do is getting better. + +00:02:56.760 --> 00:02:58.679 +And as long as that keeps getting better, + +00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:00.839 +I think that's going to lessen the demand + +00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:04.879 +for these tightly integrated editing experiences. + +00:03:04.880 --> 00:03:10.839 +So it could be that, um, a lot of people, + +00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:12.839 +especially in, you know, corporate environments + +00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:14.279 +just start using, + +00:03:14.280 --> 00:03:15.599 +they're going to use whatever is + +00:03:15.600 --> 00:03:17.959 +going to make the most productive. + +00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:22.399 +And I think right now, it's not clear that that will be, + +00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.079 +you know, the very agent-based, you know, + +00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:27.359 +command line-centric way of doing things. + +00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.239 +But it certainly, the trend is, if that continues, + +00:03:31.240 --> 00:03:33.319 +I think it probably will be like that. + +00:03:33.320 --> 00:03:35.479 +So I think we'll have to see. + +00:03:35.480 --> 00:03:37.679 +I don't think your opinion is unreasonable. + +00:03:37.680 --> 00:03:40.319 +I guess I'm kind of cautiously saying + +00:03:40.320 --> 00:03:43.199 +I think it's gonna be the opposite, but I guess we'll see. + +00:03:43.200 --> 00:03:47.759 +Like, let's reconvene in a year and see what happens. + +00:03:47.760 --> 00:03:49.159 +Uh, the 3rd question answer, + +00:03:49.160 --> 00:03:55.319 +do you have any thoughts about the environmental costs + +00:03:55.320 --> 00:03:57.079 +of using either the training + +00:03:57.080 --> 00:03:59.799 +of the models are we can download or use locally + +00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.359 +or the larger commercial models used from the cloud. + +00:04:02.360 --> 00:04:09.839 +Um, I think. The, you know, I'm on social media, + +00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:13.039 +probably a little bit more than I should be. + +00:04:13.040 --> 00:04:15.719 +And I do see a lot of discussion there + +00:04:15.720 --> 00:04:18.639 +and a lot of concern about the environmental costs of using LLMs. + +00:04:18.640 --> 00:04:22.799 +I've looked into this as I'm also concerned + +00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:27.199 +about keeping my environmental footprint personally down. + +00:04:27.200 --> 00:04:29.199 +And I do this in many ways, + +00:04:29.200 --> 00:04:31.319 +but I certainly don't want to kind of like blow that all the water + +00:04:31.320 --> 00:04:35.039 +because I'm using LLMs so much. + +00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.359 +I think that the concerns are mostly overblown. + +00:04:38.360 --> 00:04:41.839 +There's a concern that, well, it uses a lot of energy. + +00:04:41.840 --> 00:04:46.599 +In aggregate, the total amount of energy + +00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.559 +used by the data centers in the US is a few percent. + +00:04:50.560 --> 00:04:53.839 +And this is a fraction. I think this is like LM's account + +00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:56.719 +for something like 20% now + +00:04:56.720 --> 00:05:02.479 +of all data center usage, which is a lot. + +00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:03.959 +But Those data centers are doing lots of things. + +00:05:03.960 --> 00:05:05.239 +They all need to be water cooled. + +00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.679 +Um, if you like per LLM prompt, + +00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:11.399 +the costs are relatively small + +00:05:11.400 --> 00:05:13.239 +and by relatively small, I mean, + +00:05:13.240 --> 00:05:14.999 +you know, people have said online, + +00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.879 +well, it's like a few bottles of water per prompt. + +00:05:17.880 --> 00:05:20.119 +That, that is not true. It is much, much less than that. + +00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:21.359 +It's a fraction of that. + +00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:25.119 +So, uh, I don't think the answer is nothing, + +00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.759 +but I would say it's, I would say you probably, + +00:05:28.760 --> 00:05:30.799 +if you want the most bang for your environmental buck, + +00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.879 +probably the best thing for you to do + +00:05:32.880 --> 00:05:35.799 +is take less flights and things like that. + +00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:37.319 +Like, yes, you can cut down on this, + +00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:40.559 +but I think it's pretty marginal at the moment. + +00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.079 +We do probably need to think about the total costs + +00:05:43.080 --> 00:05:44.599 +like of humanity using all of this. + +00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:46.519 +Like a lot of stuff you'll see + +00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:48.759 +corporations are using a lot of these things. + +00:05:48.760 --> 00:05:52.079 +And so like, just like if you look + +00:05:52.080 --> 00:05:54.359 +at water usage or energy uses in total, + +00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:56.639 +it's like really corporations that are using this. + +00:05:56.640 --> 00:05:58.519 +So there might, there's a lot of leverage there + +00:05:58.520 --> 00:06:01.399 +to make things more efficient as opposed to personal use. + +00:06:01.400 --> 00:06:06.119 +So I think it's wise to be cautious, + +00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:09.079 +but I think it's okay, I think, at least for personal use. + +00:06:09.080 --> 00:06:13.159 +The next question is another, + +00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:20.959 +yeah, this is also disagreeing with me about VS Code, + +00:06:20.960 --> 00:06:23.839 +but it says, I must say I liked your conclusion, + +00:06:23.840 --> 00:06:26.719 +but I differ insofar as you said that VS Code differs from Emacs + +00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.479 +because the former is not as easy to adapt as the latter. + +00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.559 +But why should Microsoft not adapt VS Code + +00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:35.759 +as we adapt Emacs for the new era of coding? + +00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:38.159 +And why would VS Code be harder hit? + +00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:43.599 +Could you please elaborate on this point? Yeah, thanks. + +00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.279 +This is a good question. + +00:06:46.280 --> 00:06:50.399 +I think maybe I wasn't as sharp on my point as I could be. + +00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:51.239 +Because I think the core + +00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:56.479 +of what I'm saying is like, there is a going to be a trend. + +00:06:56.480 --> 00:06:58.679 +I believe there will be a trend away from editing. + +00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:01.039 +And if we are going to be editing less, + +00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:04.559 +I think VS Code, like people will be in editors less. + +00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:06.919 +And that means people will be in VS Code less, + +00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:09.759 +people will probably be in Emacs less. + +00:07:09.760 --> 00:07:13.719 +And yes, I think you can, VS Code + +00:07:13.720 --> 00:07:15.399 +is to some degree extensible. + +00:07:15.400 --> 00:07:21.559 +but I think there's less of a community, or that is, + +00:07:21.560 --> 00:07:23.399 +I think the people using Emacs + +00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:25.319 +have used Emacs for a long time. + +00:07:25.320 --> 00:07:27.119 +They're going to continue to use Emacs. + +00:07:27.120 --> 00:07:28.279 +I speak for myself, but I know + +00:07:28.280 --> 00:07:30.119 +a lot of people here are kind of like this, + +00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.279 +and they're going to just, like, + +00:07:33.280 --> 00:07:37.759 +we have a lot of momentum to keep doing things in Emacs, + +00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:41.079 +and especially because we have a lot of things + +00:07:41.080 --> 00:07:42.799 +that we already do in Emacs. + +00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:45.079 +We do to-do lists and, you know, with org mode + +00:07:45.080 --> 00:07:47.479 +and some people read email + +00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:49.039 +and some people are using + +00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:50.959 +shells in Emacs and all these things, + +00:07:50.960 --> 00:07:53.959 +I think will make Emacs + +00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:55.559 +kind of a better environment + +00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.599 +if you want to do various editing like things in Emacs. + +00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:05.359 +In, you know, in an editing environment, + +00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:07.119 +because I think just emails can edit + +00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.239 +more types of things I think will naturally + +00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:10.959 +be a bit more useful than VS code, + +00:08:10.960 --> 00:08:14.079 +which people are really just using to edit code + +00:08:14.080 --> 00:08:16.799 +and if people find it less useful to edit code. + +00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:20.919 +I think it's VS code will be harder hit than emails + +00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:24.239 +because that's its whole like that's in the name + +00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:25.559 +like the whole reason for it + +00:08:25.560 --> 00:08:27.359 +to be doing things as to edit code. + +00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:30.839 +So I think that it's it's vulnerable + +00:08:30.840 --> 00:08:31.959 +in a way that Emacs isn't + +00:08:31.960 --> 00:08:34.519 +just because emacs is so very... + +00:08:34.520 --> 00:08:40.119 +you know, it's, it could do so many things + +00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:42.719 +and and people use it for so many different kinds of things + +00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.079 +that it's I think it's going to be + +00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:46.999 +a little bit more resilient. + +00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.879 +But as I said with the present. + +00:08:48.880 --> 00:08:52.639 +For those of us that are using Emacs, + +00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:55.159 +it's everywhere for us. + +00:08:55.160 --> 00:08:58.359 +Not necessarily everyone is an I live in Emacs person, + +00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:00.279 +but whatever you're using Emacs for, + +00:09:00.280 --> 00:09:02.999 +it is the thing you reach for to do that thing. + +00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:06.639 +Is that touching on the point? + +00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:09.079 +Yeah, that's a great way to say it. + +00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:12.439 +Thank you. Thank you, Colin. Yeah. + +00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:14.039 +Thank you. Thank you for that question. + +00:09:14.040 --> 00:09:18.759 +Do you think we're falling behind in productivity as Emacs users + +00:09:18.760 --> 00:09:19.959 +compared to all these VS code forks + +00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:21.799 +that have a thousand button and text boxes everywhere, + +00:09:21.800 --> 00:09:24.319 +which are basically much richer UIs, + +00:09:24.320 --> 00:09:25.719 +which are basically web pages? + +00:09:25.720 --> 00:09:28.799 +I do think Emacs is falling behind in some ways. + +00:09:28.800 --> 00:09:32.519 +I mean, it's definitely showing its age a little bit, + +00:09:32.520 --> 00:09:35.079 +especially you mentioned richer UIs + +00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:36.519 +that are basically web pages. + +00:09:36.520 --> 00:09:41.159 +I mean, this I think is one of the big problems Emacs has + +00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:46.479 +is that it uses a very, you know, a much more ancient way + +00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.799 +of kind of doing UIs that is not particularly flexible + +00:09:49.800 --> 00:09:55.959 +and not particularly comfortable for any modern UI coder. + +00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.639 +And I think if you look at the Emacs stuff out there, + +00:09:58.640 --> 00:10:01.959 +like, yes, you can do a few things with UIs. + +00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.759 +You can have some amount of UI richness, + +00:10:04.760 --> 00:10:06.279 +but it's pretty limited. + +00:10:06.280 --> 00:10:07.839 +And I kind of, if there's one thing + +00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:09.079 +I could wish for in Emacs, + +00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.519 +it's sort of like, I kind of wish Emacs could be on a, + +00:10:12.520 --> 00:10:18.199 +could be built on top of basically like Atom or something like that, + +00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:20.399 +where it's like a web framework + +00:10:20.400 --> 00:10:24.639 +that allows us to write actual rich pages, + +00:10:24.640 --> 00:10:29.639 +rich UIs in a modern style using things like CSS + +00:10:29.640 --> 00:10:33.599 +instead of the kinds of things Emacs lets you do. + +00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.199 +But that said, that is an advantage + +00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:38.959 +of VS Code and other editors like that. + +00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:45.079 +I think that Emacs does a good job + +00:10:45.080 --> 00:10:46.719 +of eventually catching up + +00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:49.759 +to all sorts of things people are doing in other editors. + +00:10:49.760 --> 00:10:52.599 +It's often that other editors get there first, + +00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:55.479 +but there's a lot of momentum + +00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:57.839 +to kind of keep Emacs fresh, keep it modern. + +00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:00.119 +And it's pretty easy to- I love that. + +00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:05.679 +I forgot about the lag. We do have a little bit of lag, + +00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:07.999 +but I just, I find that very captivating. + +00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.359 +We have with technologies + +00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:12.399 +like Apache Cassandra in the database world, + +00:11:12.400 --> 00:11:14.879 +we have this idea of eventual concurrency. + +00:11:14.880 --> 00:11:17.559 +And you make me think with Emacs, + +00:11:17.560 --> 00:11:21.279 +we have this idea of eventual feature parity, right? + +00:11:21.280 --> 00:11:23.919 +If a feature stays desirable long enough, + +00:11:23.920 --> 00:11:25.879 +Emacs will eventually grow it. + +00:11:25.880 --> 00:11:32.159 +I think that's a very contagious idea. Yeah, yeah, thanks. + +00:11:32.160 --> 00:11:35.839 +I hope that idea makes sense. And I hope it's correct, + +00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.919 +because I think that I do want Emacs to continue to succeed. + +00:11:39.920 --> 00:11:43.439 +And I personally, using Emacs, + +00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.479 +do not feel myself falling behind in productivity. + +00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:51.759 +That said, there's a lot of ways that Emacs can improve + +00:11:51.760 --> 00:11:53.519 +and should improve on this front. + +00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:56.599 +And a lot of these ways are pretty fundamental. + +00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:59.719 +So I kind of hope people pay a lot of attention + +00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.439 +to some of these more fundamental lower-level Emacs things + +00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:04.879 +that really allows the packages + +00:12:04.880 --> 00:12:07.599 +to do more richer and better things. + +00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:10.359 +Sorry, you have a ton of questions. + +00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:12.279 +I shouldn't be doing so much active listening. + +00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:17.479 +No, no, I appreciate your input. + +00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:23.079 +OK, next is I've been using Claude Code extensively. + +00:12:23.080 --> 00:12:25.519 +I recently switched to Agent Shell with Claude Code. + +00:12:25.520 --> 00:12:28.039 +Have you tried it? And what are your thoughts? + +00:12:28.040 --> 00:12:30.279 +I actually have tried Agent Shell. + +00:12:30.280 --> 00:12:34.719 +And currently, I recorded this video like three months ago. + +00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.119 +So Agent Shell did not exist then. + +00:12:38.120 --> 00:12:39.719 +If Agent Shell did exist, + +00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:41.239 +I probably would have demoed it as well. + +00:12:41.240 --> 00:12:45.359 +Agent Hell is great in the sense of it's + +00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:53.719 +It does use comment, which is the way that I think all Emacs users + +00:12:53.720 --> 00:12:57.039 +would prefer to interact with something like Claude Code, + +00:12:57.040 --> 00:13:00.199 +or any of those types of tools, which is like, I don't. + +00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:02.719 +Um, the other, + +00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.159 +but it's a trade-off it uses like on the back + +00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:06.959 +and it's, it has a common buffer. + +00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:08.759 +And then on the back end, it's using a protocol + +00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:11.759 +to talk to agent, uh, to Claude Code and other things. + +00:13:11.760 --> 00:13:15.399 +The problem is this has a lot of problems. + +00:13:15.400 --> 00:13:16.799 +For example, like you don't have + +00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:18.319 +completion of slash commands. + +00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.119 +You don't have, um, if you ask to see the, in Claude Code, + +00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.319 +you can get a visual representation of. the context window. + +00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.239 +But you can't do this. I mean, last time I tried, + +00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:31.719 +I couldn't do this in agent shell. + +00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:33.399 +It's progressing rapidly. + +00:13:33.400 --> 00:13:37.479 +But it's not as rich in functionality + +00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:40.119 +as using quad code directly. + +00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:44.839 +On the other hand, because it's letting Emacs be Emacs + +00:13:44.840 --> 00:13:49.239 +and using comment, it's a much better experience + +00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:50.919 +to actually give instructions. + +00:13:50.920 --> 00:13:56.519 +I think the maximum power, though, is, to me, + +00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:58.479 +the best way is still like, you know, + +00:13:58.480 --> 00:13:59.399 +do your editing in org mode, + +00:13:59.400 --> 00:14:02.359 +and then just tell, you could have, + +00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:06.959 +you know, the richer experience of using + +00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:13.639 +of using Claude Code in, in it's more like shell like form + +00:14:13.640 --> 00:14:15.559 +where everything is, it's much, you know, + +00:14:15.560 --> 00:14:17.079 +designed to be used in the terminal, + +00:14:17.080 --> 00:14:18.759 +but you don't have to type in that much + +00:14:18.760 --> 00:14:20.039 +because you're really doing your typing + +00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:21.439 +in order to me, I think there's + +00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.519 +kind of the sweet spot that I like. + +00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:26.639 +Um, but HHL is a great step forward + +00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:29.879 +and I think it's, uh, it's quite good to use. + +00:14:29.880 --> 00:14:32.119 +And I, I personally use it a lot. + +00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:40.479 +Um, OK, so in terms of, next question, + +00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:41.839 +in terms of agent selection, + +00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:44.639 +what has been your experience with different agents? + +00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:48.079 +And have you had any success with hosting your own models + +00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:49.439 +and using open weights? + +00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:54.159 +I think there's, you know, many people + +00:14:54.160 --> 00:14:56.519 +have many different opinions on this. + +00:14:56.520 --> 00:15:00.839 +I think Claude Code is, most people I know + +00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.479 +would say Claude Code is probably, + +00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:07.479 +sorry, Cloud is probably the best for coding right now. + +00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:09.919 +Gemini can be very hit and miss even with 3.0, + +00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:12.519 +but Claude is quite good. + +00:15:12.520 --> 00:15:16.119 +4.5 Opus is actually relatively cheap + +00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:21.119 +compared to the previous version of 4.1 Opus. + +00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:24.239 +There's other models out there, + +00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:29.159 +but I think most people just stick with Claude + +00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:33.999 +because it's very reliable, it's very good, + +00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.479 +and nothing is obviously better than that. + +00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:41.039 +And as far as DeepSeek is pretty good as well, + +00:15:41.040 --> 00:15:42.079 +and then much cheaper. + +00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:46.839 +I've had some good luck using that locally, + +00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:50.159 +but actually the problem is for my day-to-day machine, + +00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:53.079 +like my personal machine, + +00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.679 +it's not powerful enough to run anything locally. + +00:15:55.680 --> 00:15:58.479 +And my work machine, it is powerful enough, + +00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:02.079 +but I can spend my company's money at will + +00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.759 +on more powerful models. + +00:16:03.760 --> 00:16:05.519 +So there's really not a lot of incentive + +00:16:05.520 --> 00:16:06.439 +for me to run locally. + +00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:12.199 +I think, as far as I know, I haven't heard + +00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:14.359 +of local models being incredible, + +00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:16.879 +but I think you can get reasonable quality with them. + +00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:19.159 +That is, especially if you're doing + +00:16:19.160 --> 00:16:20.279 +relatively simple things, + +00:16:20.280 --> 00:16:25.679 +I think it's pretty reasonable to be using those. + +00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:29.959 +Also, they tend to be slower + +00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:33.279 +than the models that are elsewhere + +00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:36.319 +just because they just have more horsepower, + +00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:38.679 +they can churn through those tokens a little quicker. + +00:16:38.680 --> 00:16:44.719 +So, I'll just break in here to say, + +00:16:44.720 --> 00:16:46.239 +we've got about 7 minutes left + +00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:49.239 +before we're cutting over this great discussion so far. + +00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:50.839 +I'm very happy to keep going. + +00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:55.399 +There's no time limit, but at a certain point, + +00:16:55.400 --> 00:16:56.479 +I may have to leave + +00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.679 +to jump in and prep with the next speaker, + +00:16:58.680 --> 00:17:00.359 +but you'll be able to keep going + +00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:02.599 +as long as you have the steam for it. + +00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:06.159 +Yeah, I think we have 3 questions. Yeah, thanks. + +00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:08.239 +I think we have 3 questions. + +00:17:08.240 --> 00:17:09.719 +Let's see if we can get through them + +00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:17.359 +all in that time period. OK, this one is interesting talk. + +00:17:17.360 --> 00:17:20.439 +I'll start by asking it for everything, but is it editing? + +00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:23.239 +I think there's more of a comment than a question. + +00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:29.719 +So yes, let us all ask, but is it editing? + +00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.439 +All right. I can move on to the comment area. + +00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:40.319 +I'm reading angst in your thinking about AI editing. + +00:17:40.320 --> 00:17:41.839 +I think that's true. + +00:17:41.840 --> 00:17:44.119 +It says, and the question continues with, + +00:17:44.120 --> 00:17:45.159 +what are you excited about? + +00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:48.719 +Wow, that's an interesting question. + +00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:53.799 +I mean, I think there are possibilities. + +00:17:53.800 --> 00:17:58.719 +Like, yes, people are going in sort of a relatively obvious direction + +00:17:58.720 --> 00:18:01.439 +with LLMs right now. + +00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.599 +And I think there's lots of opportunities, + +00:18:04.600 --> 00:18:07.839 +clever opportunities to do things + +00:18:07.840 --> 00:18:11.079 +we couldn't have thought of Things that are useful, + +00:18:11.080 --> 00:18:14.919 +but in ways that are not super obvious to us, + +00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.519 +and I think I'm still excited + +00:18:18.520 --> 00:18:23.839 +about the possibilities of using them in ways that are super helpful + +00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:29.319 +and different than. normal. I'll give you an example. + +00:18:29.320 --> 00:18:33.199 +This is something that I intend to, I think, + +00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.479 +post on Reddit in a few days, + +00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.399 +but I have a extension to eshell + +00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.439 +where you can prefix a command with at, + +00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.199 +and then just tell it what you want to do, + +00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:46.919 +and it will substitute the command + +00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:51.919 +that you are thinking of. Because often, I do not remember. + +00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.919 +I never remember, like, how do you find a file in a directory tree, + +00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.159 +you know, recursing? Who can remember how to do that? + +00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:04.799 +It's like a find, and there's like a dash print there somewhere. + +00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:10.159 +Yes. There are some smart people who remember this + +00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:11.199 +but I am not one of them. + +00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.639 +And so I think like something like this is like you just type out, + +00:19:13.640 --> 00:19:17.279 +find me this file, and it will substitute + +00:19:17.280 --> 00:19:18.879 +the correct command. + +00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:20.999 +I think this is, there's a lot of little, + +00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:24.319 +little tweaks you could do like, you know, if you want the AI, + +00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:26.679 +it could be there for you. And it will help you. + +00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:27.559 +And if you don't want it, + +00:19:27.560 --> 00:19:28.919 +it's not going to get in your way. + +00:19:28.920 --> 00:19:30.639 +And I think this is where eMath can really shine. + +00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.079 +It can really take advantage of LLMs, + +00:19:33.080 --> 00:19:35.799 +but still remain true to its kind of editing experience, + +00:19:35.800 --> 00:19:39.319 +because it's not forcing you to use LLMs all the time. + +00:19:39.320 --> 00:19:43.919 +So thank you for that great question. + +00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:47.919 +And then the final question. Yep. + +00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:50.839 +This final question is, why does it matter to have a richer UI? + +00:19:50.840 --> 00:19:53.439 +All this left is basically running and getting the results. + +00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.119 +I think maybe this is a response to me complaining + +00:19:56.120 --> 00:19:58.479 +about Emacs not having a richer UI before, + +00:19:58.480 --> 00:20:03.159 +but I think it does matter a lot for all sorts of things. + +00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.159 +It's hard to kind of explain succinctly + +00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:08.519 +because I'm talking about UI + +00:20:08.520 --> 00:20:09.759 +and I'd have to show you things. + +00:20:09.760 --> 00:20:14.599 +But it should be just something like oh I have an error + +00:20:14.600 --> 00:20:15.799 +and I'm using flymake and I'm, + +00:20:15.800 --> 00:20:17.759 +I'm using the you know I have options + +00:20:17.760 --> 00:20:19.839 +where it'll show me the error in line + +00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:22.639 +by like underlining things and having a little message, + +00:20:22.640 --> 00:20:24.079 +but like, you know what that message + +00:20:24.080 --> 00:20:26.399 +doesn't appear quite right, a lot of the times, + +00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:30.159 +or here's another one like. I program in Python a lot. + +00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.479 +And Python, it's super hard to program in + +00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:35.279 +unless you have these little vertical lines + +00:20:35.280 --> 00:20:37.599 +that shows you what the indents are. At least I find it. + +00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:40.479 +There are two packages that do that. + +00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:43.039 +None of them do it particularly well, + +00:20:43.040 --> 00:20:44.599 +just because Emacs at its base + +00:20:44.600 --> 00:20:45.919 +does not allow you to do this. + +00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:47.759 +And so you kind of have to hack it in. + +00:20:47.760 --> 00:20:49.479 +And there's lots of ways to mess it up. + +00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:52.799 +And when editing, you'll find yourself messing this thing up. + +00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:57.159 +regularly. So it doesn't look quite clean. + +00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:59.079 +And like, there's little artifacts, + +00:20:59.080 --> 00:21:01.039 +or, you know, there's little ways that it, + +00:21:01.040 --> 00:21:02.359 +it kind of gets things wrong, + +00:21:02.360 --> 00:21:06.279 +or you can, you can get things wrong with it. + +00:21:06.280 --> 00:21:10.039 +So I think that, like, + +00:21:10.040 --> 00:21:11.879 +there's a lot of issues with that sort of thing. + +00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.759 +And, and also, like, you know, + +00:21:15.760 --> 00:21:17.719 +what if you want to do something like play a video inline, + +00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:19.559 +like, I don't know, you might should be able to do that, + +00:21:19.560 --> 00:21:20.839 +you might should be able to do anything. + +00:21:20.840 --> 00:21:23.799 +But right now it just can't and I think + +00:21:23.800 --> 00:21:24.999 +a lot of the reason as well + +00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:26.519 +we you know we wanted to be compatible + +00:21:26.520 --> 00:21:29.919 +with you know TRS 80 machines or something like that + +00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.159 +and it's this is important this really is important, + +00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:34.719 +but I hope there's some way + +00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.079 +that we can kind of eventually figure out + +00:21:36.080 --> 00:21:39.279 +how to get the best of you know both compatibility and. + +00:21:39.280 --> 00:21:44.879 +more modern UIs. So, you know, we can have more modern UIs + +00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:49.839 +for people that have modern machines and other people + +00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:51.959 +either do without that functionality + +00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.319 +or sort of fall back to some reasonable default. + +00:21:54.320 --> 00:21:59.079 +So we have about 30 seconds or a minute. + +00:21:59.080 --> 00:22:00.679 +I know there's one more question. + +00:22:00.680 --> 00:22:01.559 +I'd love for you to get to it. + +00:22:01.560 --> 00:22:02.839 +I just want to make sure that + +00:22:02.840 --> 00:22:04.239 +while we're still live on stream, + +00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:05.519 +you get a chance to share + +00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:06.799 +any closing remarks you might have. + +00:22:06.800 --> 00:22:10.879 +Thank you for that. Um, yes. + +00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:14.519 +So first of all, I want to thank everyone involved for listening. + +00:22:14.520 --> 00:22:18.919 +And I want to thank the core when I think thanks for moderating this. + +00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:21.279 +And Sacha, thank you for putting that together. + +00:22:21.280 --> 00:22:21.919 +And I know there's more people + +00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:23.319 +that are working behind the scenes. + +00:22:23.320 --> 00:22:25.079 +So thank you all for putting this together. + +00:22:25.080 --> 00:22:29.199 +I'm so happy that we all are here. We care about Emacs. + +00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:31.199 +We're pushing Emacs forward. + +00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.959 +We are I think Emacs remains + +00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:37.279 +this really remarkable achievement. + +00:22:37.280 --> 00:22:41.799 +Like it's amazing that it exists. It continues to exist. + +00:22:41.800 --> 00:22:42.999 +It hasn't got, it's hard. + +00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.159 +It's like, really, there's a lot of work to go into it. + +00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:47.559 +So I think let's all just appreciate everyone who, + +00:22:47.560 --> 00:22:50.679 +who like contributes and makes all of this possible. + +00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:52.159 +Cause it's, if you ever read + +00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.279 +the Emacs Develop mailing list, + +00:22:53.280 --> 00:22:55.479 +it's a lot of work, a lot of deep thinking, + +00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:56.679 +a lot of careful thinking. + +00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:58.599 +And I think this is really important. + +00:22:58.600 --> 00:23:02.039 +So thank you, especially to the maintainers of Emacs + +00:23:02.040 --> 00:23:04.199 +and everyone who's contributing to the core experience, + +00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.759 +all the libraries, all the LLM stuff we mentioned before. + +00:23:07.760 --> 00:23:09.839 +You're all doing such a fantastic job. + +00:23:09.840 --> 00:23:13.799 +It's exciting to be here. Thank you for your talk, Andrew. + +00:23:13.800 --> 00:23:16.159 +It's been just fascinating. + +00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:19.759 +If you don't mind, I'd love to jump + +00:23:19.760 --> 00:23:23.879 +right over to the last question. OK, let's do that. + +00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:27.599 +It says, I have 45 plus years editing programming. + +00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:29.239 +I'm not sure I can think about things + +00:23:29.240 --> 00:23:31.039 +without thinking of buffers, editors, et cetera. + +00:23:31.040 --> 00:23:31.959 +Is this the handicap? + +00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:34.239 +Should we have people with no experience + +00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:35.319 +with code learning to prompt? + +00:23:35.320 --> 00:23:38.799 +Well, this is something I do have a strong opinion about. + +00:23:38.800 --> 00:23:42.159 +I feel like I do not want to see people that have no experience + +00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:44.119 +with code learning to prompt. I think it's very limited + +00:23:44.120 --> 00:23:46.039 +what you could do right now with that. + +00:23:46.040 --> 00:23:48.439 +Like you could do, if you could sort of one-shot it, + +00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.999 +that is like, I have something that's relatively easy, + +00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.879 +And it could do it, and I'm going to tell it to do it, + +00:23:54.880 --> 00:23:56.039 +and then I'm going to give feedback. + +00:23:56.040 --> 00:24:00.039 +OK, as long as this is for relatively short-lived things, + +00:24:00.040 --> 00:24:02.599 +I think that works well. But for people who really care + +00:24:02.600 --> 00:24:04.279 +about the longevity of their code, + +00:24:04.280 --> 00:24:06.599 +really care about software engineering, + +00:24:06.600 --> 00:24:09.879 +which is software engineering is very different than just writing code. + +00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:11.879 +Software engineering is about maintainability. + +00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.119 +Software engineering is making sure everything is scalable + +00:24:15.120 --> 00:24:19.599 +and all sorts of things that it's unlikely, + +00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:21.759 +I think, that an LM is going to get right. + +00:24:21.760 --> 00:24:25.279 +And I've seen a lot of bad cases + +00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:27.199 +where people who don't understand code + +00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:31.159 +are doing things and it's not working well + +00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:33.239 +because they don't understand + +00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.279 +some of the some of the complexities + +00:24:35.280 --> 00:24:36.959 +or some of the concerns that that you might have + +00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:43.279 +in maintaining a piece of code. + +00:24:43.280 --> 00:24:45.759 +So I think those people who have lots of experience + +00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:46.959 +are the best people to use this. + +00:24:46.960 --> 00:24:48.119 +And I think that's what we're seeing + +00:24:48.120 --> 00:24:49.079 +in the industry as well, + +00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:51.639 +where more senior people are doing quite well + +00:24:51.640 --> 00:24:54.599 +because they're able to use LLMs + +00:24:54.600 --> 00:24:56.559 +more effectively than junior people. + +00:24:56.560 --> 00:25:00.999 +That may all even out because LLMs get even better, + +00:25:01.000 --> 00:25:03.079 +but for now hasn't happened. + +00:25:03.080 --> 00:25:06.319 +So I think, you know, I also have a ton of experience, + +00:25:06.320 --> 00:25:13.079 +not 45 years, but a lot. And, and I think that it's those, + +00:25:13.080 --> 00:25:14.839 +those years of experience will only help you. + +00:25:14.840 --> 00:25:16.919 +And I think it's, it's, it's a great, + +00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.639 +it's great to kind of dip your toes in the water + +00:25:19.640 --> 00:25:20.732 +and see what you can do. |