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diff --git a/2024/talks/literate.md b/2024/talks/literate.md index 0fb0a0de..94f5332c 100644 --- a/2024/talks/literate.md +++ b/2024/talks/literate.md @@ -42,6 +42,198 @@ the years, I’ve filed them off with helper functions, snippets and other features. Thought I would share these. +# Discussion + +## Questions and answers + +- Q: You touched on it briefly, but how do you handle things like + "C-h f" helpful info not being tied back to the defuns in src + block code when you "C-c C-c" them in the org buffers instead of + re-tangling it to the files, and other such things? Did you create + wrappers for jumping back and forth atop org's built-in mechanisms + to go back and forth between org/tangled files? + - A: (not yet answered) +- Q: Apropos large literate programs: what's the largest code base + you've ever tackled with the literate approach (esp. Emacs + + Org-mode)? + - A: The largest is the one I mentioned in the talk ... about + 8000 lines of "code" and another "10000" lines of prose. I + think I came to 15,000 max (in code blocks only). +- Q: Have you ever used org-transclusion + ([https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion](https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion))? + - A: Nope \... but I will + - I tried it out once, and had one hour of work deleted 🥲, + but it was from an issue already reported: + [https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/177](https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/177) + and + [https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/257](https://github.com/nobiot/org-transclusion/issues/257) +- Q: What is your usage of dynamic blocks in such workflows? Any + interesting use cases and custom ones? + - A: Not yet, will report back +- Q:Is the minibuffer being deliberately hidden in this video? (first + noticed this in the section previous to "Navigating by Function + Names") + - A: Not intentionally :) You may notice the minibuffer comes and + goes, sorry about that; not intentional (didn't quite "fix" + all of them) (Thanks for the answer, no worries.) +- Q:What's your take on Emacs+Org vs. Jupyter notebooks (for + interactive programming)? + - A: Not something I use right now. Tend to include things from + jupyter/python (e.g. numpy) that has been the biggest challenge + (not knowing that stuff all that well), things like matrix + multiplications are easy in jupyter not such much in org. May + make sense to stay where you are comfortable. Curious what the + community can do to make this transition easier + - You can't work with Jupyter in \> 1 language either (I think). + It's Py + SQL or R + SQL etc. Org allows 45+ languages in one + document (I often mix languages). +- Q: Do you think any programming language is more suited to literate + programming than another? + - A: R, C are my favorites (for literate programs). C (and C++) + have got great support. There are some great books implemented + in literate programming I think. The two that come to mind are + Physically Based Rendering: From Theory to Implementation and C + Interfaces and Implementations. The first is C++ and the + second C. Ty. + - \<gs-101\> Personally, when working with Org files, I have a + better time dealing with interpreted languages, such as Python, + because you can initialize a session and the code is all + conected. You can divide blocks however you seem fit. +- Q: related to above, do you use inline org function calls and org + babel library and such? + - A: Used to use more org-babel inline functions, found sound bugs + (maybe) 8yrs ago, right now my literate dev-ops is calling a lot + of backend programs so the org-babel has limited help in that + regard while in the emacs session things are "just available" + so that hasn't help much either +- Q: How do you handle the cases where org markup may sometimes + interfere with some of the code, in places where you can't use + "escapes" (\~ or = or \| \<- vertical bar), doubly so if you use + modes to not show these but the styled text instead, and so on? +- I think an example is in C when you assign to a pointer \*p = &i; + (In Org, you need to write (\*p) or ,\*p = &i; or it will be + mistaken for a headline \* + - A: (clarifying) when I'm making pros and I'm talking about a + function I've written somewhere else I'll use tildes and look + for those things so I can strip them off. Is that the spirit of + the question. (confirmed). Yes, I'll strip that off after + finding the function name, so I can still mark it correctly. + - Q: clarifying: when in code inside an org buffer, you don't get + to use \~ or = (verbatim/etc), and any font-locking interferes + with the proper display in the src blocks, that kind of + interference. +- Q: You said at the start that literate didn't catch on in corporate + DevOps - why not? + - A: I guess the big thing is not everyone is using Emacs and org + is needed to make it work really well. +- Q: I gotta ask: why not that full stack on Markdown, I'm sure it's + crossed your mind at least a few times how the same setup on + Markdown would be more interop-friendly with colleagues and such? + - A: It's a real good idea. +- Q: How does your management of "TODOs" (projects/tasks) interact + with this literate mindset, any insightful things you do on that + front? + - A: Yeah. Okay. So, uh, on to do's and that sort of thing, um. You know, a lot is the same as it was 10 years ago. At the beginning of every sprint, my company, we're using JIRA. All jokes are valid when I say that. But I just go to its web page. I copy all the tasks that I need to do that sprint. I wrote a function that takes that code and reformats it as a bunch of org tasks for me to do that I can just now have all my to-dos. And I start to work off of that from that point on. So it'll reference all the projects, and I do symlinks to every code base that I need to use. Most of the to-dos I put inside my code block is kind of just for me, just so I can remember it. Because the work that I have to do needs to be tracked a little more fine-grained, I guess. Yeah. +- Q: \<Donovan\> Do you LP also on larger projects? (More files & + nested directories) + - A: I haven't done nested directories, but I can now. Now that + i've realized I have the feature where I can just jump to any + projects and all the org-files and all the headings just show + up, that works in nested directories, that that's fun. +- Q: Have you used Cucumber/Gherkin/BDD and do you think it has a + strong overlap to what you talked about here? + - A: I tend to put the tests right next to the function, I like + tangle it out to different files; keeping things together is + nice. Many frameworks assume we'll have things seperated out + in a way that isn't useful to me. I like to go old-school on + that? +- Q: What granularity are you looking for re your org files and + contents, with respect to a codebase that it tangles to, or in + non-coding contexts? + - A: Great questions, really subjective. I change that all + time. I have an idea, I start to refine it. My goal at one + point was to have an emacs config that was really small and + simple and that just really doesn't happen, it's full of ideas + and things that are half-baked and i pull them out and polish + them up bit by bit so it ends up being like any code-base it + just keeps getting refined. Sub-trees, archiving are useful. + - I've found it useful to prune the init file back to minimal + every once in a while (actually, AI has been surprisingly + helpful - perhaps it helps that Emacs is ancient and hence there + is a lot of doc out there and much of it \... correct?) + +## Notes + +- My literate programming code extensions: + [https://www.howardabrams.com/git/howard/hamacs/src/branch/main/ha-org-literate.org](https://www.howardabrams.com/git/howard/hamacs/src/branch/main/ha-org-literate.org) +- My Emacs configuration written in a literate style: + [https://github.com/howardabrams/hamacs](https://github.com/howardabrams/hamacs) +- See it rendered here: + [https://howardabrams.com/hamacs/](https://howardabrams.com/hamacs/) +- My JOPS (Jump to Project Sections) code that "searches Org + headers": + [https://www.howardabrams.com/git/howard/jops](https://www.howardabrams.com/git/howard/jops) + \... temporary location? +- snippet on \<ssl: Cool one. + - 0_0 I need to do this. +- This (evaluating babel blocks) is also possible with the + Avy + Embark combo developed by karthik: + ([https://karthinks.com/software/avy-can-do-anything/#avy-plus-embark-any-action-anywhere](https://karthinks.com/software/avy-can-do-anything/#avy-plus-embark-any-action-anywhere)), + just jump to a block and then "RET". +- Really good talk. I need to find out how to extend + xref to handle org files! + - same here, I asked a long-winded + question that was about that (before he touched a bit on it), + but feel there's more in terms of wrappers and such +- Denote has some pretty good use of dynamic blocks I + think + ([https://protesilaos.com/emacs/denote#h:8b542c50-dcc9-4bca-8037-a36599b22779](https://protesilaos.com/emacs/denote#h:8b542c50-dcc9-4bca-8037-a36599b22779)) + - There's also the dynamic blocks from org-nursery: + [https://github.com/chrisbarrett/nursery?tab=readme-ov-file#org-roam-dblocks-incubating](https://github.com/chrisbarrett/nursery?tab=readme-ov-file#org-roam-dblocks-incubating) +- there is an RFC in for 'cargo-script' which allows + building single-file crates - i think that will be quite useful in + ob-rust + - There's a ob-rust already and it uses + rust-script: [https://github.com/micanzhang/ob-rust](https://github.com/micanzhang/ob-rust), + but the developer wanted to use rustc instead. + - cargo-script RFC issue: [https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/issues/12207](https://github.com/rust-lang/cargo/issues/12207) +- Not a Q, just a comment that we need more of your insightful + posts and videos! :) (sic) + + +- I am both hyped and scared by Howard's talk, some of his past insights into using org-mode (literate everything, many small spreadsheets, etc.) have changed the way I operate so thoroughly... +- 19th century? Isn't that in the 1800s? + - 21 1/4 century? + - you are not incorrect I believe - easy mistake to make, it's not intuitive! + - YouTube comment: 1:00 So Knuth invented literate programming in the 19th century? I knew he was old, but not that old! +- i think the only time i have worked with literate programming is Inform 7 +- I find that the Julia support in org (babel) is good enough. Most of my programming is in Julia. + - re: Julia in Org: For ob-julia support I wrote an ob-julia that does a few more things than the one that ships with ESS. https://github.com/karthink/ob-julia +- (I'm here trying to milk Howard for all his fantastic insights in the Etherpad, hope that's not a faux-pas...!) + - I, at least, am enjoying the Q&A session so not a faux-pas as far as I'm concerned. + +- YouTube comment: The best reason I've heard explaining why most programmers don't (and won't) use literate programming. It requires them to be literate in three languages: the programming language, the markup language, and most challenging of all, English. +- YouTube comment: Q: Literate programming is very appealing in theory, but it's difficult with languages like Go where your code is split across multiple files. Any suggestions? + +Feedback: + +- very cool +- Lovely talk, thank you! +- Awesome, thank you! +- That was wonderful, thank you! 😊 +- Thank you Howard! +- Thanks for your continued work, Howard! +- A legend! ... loved the Ironsworn presentation from previous year. +- excellent presentation indeed +- Thank you for the marvelous talk!! +- Thanks for the presentation +- Your way of delivering is inspiring. +- god I wish I was that good a presenter +- I for one had been looking forward to this particular talk, so there's that :) +- YouTube comment: Legend! +- YouTube comment: Howard! Your videos have been such an amazing source of information. You voice is engrained in my brains haha +- Somehow my interest in #emacs reignited and a lot of is due to org presentation by @howard [@mms@bsd.cafe](https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/@mms/113724843960332570) + [[!inline pages="internal(2024/info/literate-after)" raw="yes"]] |