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diff --git a/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-p-search--psearch-a-local-search-engine-in-emacs--zac-romero--answers.vtt b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-p-search--psearch-a-local-search-engine-in-emacs--zac-romero--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..cd09d3cb --- /dev/null +++ b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-p-search--psearch-a-local-search-engine-in-emacs--zac-romero--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,2017 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.559 +...starting the recording here in the chat, and I see some + +00:00:03.560 --> 00:00:06.039 +questions already coming in. So thank you so much for your + +00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:09.359 +talk, Zac, and I'll step out of your way and let you field + +00:00:09.360 --> 00:00:10.279 +some of these questions. + +00:00:10.280 --> 00:00:21.999 +Sounds good. All right, so let's see. I'm going off of the + +00:00:22.000 --> 00:00:22.969 +question list. + +NOTE Q: Do you think a reduced version of this functionality could be integrated into isearch? + +00:00:22.970 --> 00:00:25.839 +So the first one is about having reduced + +00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:31.999 +version of the functionality integrated into iSearch. So + +00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:37.919 +yeah, with the way things are set up, it is essentially a + +00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:42.679 +framework. So + +00:00:42.680 --> 00:00:46.279 +you can create a candidate. So just a review from the talk. So + +00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:49.919 +you have these candidate generators which generate search + +00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:54.559 +candidates. So you can have a file system candidate which + +00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:58.519 +generates these file documents, which have text content in + +00:00:58.520 --> 00:01:01.799 +them. In theory, you could have like a website candidate + +00:01:01.800 --> 00:01:06.399 +generator, and it could be like a web crawler. I mean, so + +00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:10.519 +there's a lot of different options. So one option, it's on my + +00:01:10.520 --> 00:01:15.039 +mind, and I hope to get to this soon, is create a defun, like a + +00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.599 +defun candidate generator. So basically it takes a file, + +00:01:18.600 --> 00:01:22.279 +splits it up into like defunds, kind of like just like what + +00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:26.279 +iSearch would do. and then use each of those, the body of + +00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.959 +those, as a content for the search session. So, I mean, + +00:01:30.960 --> 00:01:35.359 +essentially you could just, you could start up a session, + +00:01:35.360 --> 00:01:39.479 +and there's like programmatic ways to start these up too. So + +00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.599 +you could, if such a candidate generator was created, you + +00:01:42.600 --> 00:01:49.559 +could easily, and just like, you know, one command. Get the + +00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:54.599 +defunds, create a search session with it, and then just go + +00:01:54.600 --> 00:02:01.439 +straight to your query. So, definitely, something + +00:02:01.440 --> 00:02:06.919 +just like this is in the works. And I guess another thing is + +00:02:06.920 --> 00:02:08.239 +interface. + +00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:17.079 +The whole dedicated buffer is helpful for searching, but + +00:02:17.080 --> 00:02:21.919 +with this isearch case, there's currently not a way to have a + +00:02:21.920 --> 00:02:27.839 +reduced UI, where it's just like, OK, I have these function + +00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:32.239 +defuns for the current file. I just want them to pop up at the + +00:02:32.240 --> 00:02:35.799 +bottom so I can quickly go through it. So currently, I don't + +00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:41.199 +have that. But such a UI is definitely, yeah, thinking about + +00:02:41.200 --> 00:02:45.359 +how that could be done. + +NOTE Q: Any idea how this would work with personal information like Zettlekastens? + +00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:50.359 +Alright, so yeah. So next question. Any idea how this + +00:02:50.360 --> 00:02:52.599 +will work with personal information like Zettelkasten? + +00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:58.319 +So this is, this is like, I mean, it's essentially usable as + +00:02:58.320 --> 00:03:04.559 +is with Zettelkasten method. So, I mean, that I mean + +00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:08.279 +basically what like for example org-roam, and I think other + +00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:12.159 +ones like Denote, they put all these files in the + +00:03:12.160 --> 00:03:15.919 +directory, and so with the already existing file system + +00:03:15.920 --> 00:03:19.679 +candidate generator all you'd have to do is set that to be the + +00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.199 +directory of your Zettelkasten system and then it would + +00:03:23.200 --> 00:03:26.799 +just pick up all the files in there and + +00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:28.799 +then add those as search candidates. So you could easily + +00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:33.279 +just search whatever system you have. + +00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:36.039 +Based off of the ways it's set up, if you had maybe your + +00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:40.999 +dailies you didn't want to search, it's just as easy to add a + +00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:44.519 +criteria saying, I don't want dailies to be searched. Like + +00:03:44.520 --> 00:03:47.599 +give, like just eliminate the date, like the things from the + +00:03:47.600 --> 00:03:51.679 +daily from the sub directory. And then there you go. you have + +00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:57.799 +your Zettelkasten search engine, and you could just copy + +00:03:57.800 --> 00:03:59.999 +the, you know, there's, I mean, I need, I'm working on + +00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:03.519 +documentation for this to kind of set this up easily, but, + +00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.679 +you know, you could just create your simple command, just + +00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:10.679 +like, your simple command, just like, just take in a text + +00:04:10.680 --> 00:04:14.359 +query, run it through the system, and then just get your + +00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:19.599 +search results right there. So yeah, definitely that is a + +00:04:19.600 --> 00:04:22.040 +use case that's on top of my mind. + +NOTE Q: How good does the search work for synonyms especially if you use different languages? + +00:04:22.041 --> 00:04:23.239 +So next one, how good does a + +00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:26.439 +search work for synonyms, especially if you use different + +00:04:26.440 --> 00:04:30.719 +languages? Okay, this is a good question because with the + +00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.719 +way that VM25 works, it's essentially just like trying to + +00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:41.119 +find where terms occur and just counts them up. + +00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:43.999 +I mean, this is something I couldn't get into. There's just + +00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:46.919 +too much on the topic of information retrieval to kind of go + +00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:52.879 +into this, but there is a whole kind of field of just like, how + +00:04:52.880 --> 00:04:58.279 +do you, given a search term, how do you know what you should + +00:04:58.280 --> 00:05:02.519 +search for? So like popular kind of industrial search + +00:05:02.520 --> 00:05:07.519 +engines, like they have kind of this feature where you can + +00:05:07.520 --> 00:05:11.039 +like define synonyms, define, term replacement. So + +00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.079 +whenever you see this term, it should be this. And it even + +00:05:14.080 --> 00:05:15.091 +gets even further. + +NOTE Plurals + +00:05:15.092 --> 00:05:19.439 +If someone searches for a plural string, + +00:05:19.440 --> 00:05:22.279 +how do you get the singular from that and search for that? So + +00:05:22.280 --> 00:05:27.559 +this is a huge topic that currently p-search doesn't + +00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:33.519 +address, but it's on the top of my mind as to how. So that's one + +00:05:33.520 --> 00:05:33.882 +part. + +NOTE Different languages + +00:05:33.883 --> 00:05:38.999 +The next part is for different languages, one thing + +00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:42.839 +that kind of seems like it's promising is vector search, + +00:05:42.840 --> 00:05:47.399 +which, I mean, with the way p-search is set up, you could + +00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:51.159 +easily just create a vector search prior, plug it into the + +00:05:51.160 --> 00:05:54.599 +system, and start using it. The only problem is that kind of + +00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:58.879 +the vector search functions, like you have to do like cosine + +00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:03.639 +similarity, like if you have like 10,000 documents, If + +00:06:03.640 --> 00:06:06.679 +you're writing Elisp to calculate the cosine similarity + +00:06:06.680 --> 00:06:09.879 +between the vectors, that's going to be very slow. And so now + +00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:14.159 +the whole can of worms of indexing comes up. And how do you do + +00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.479 +that? And is that going to be native elisp? And so that's a + +00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.839 +whole other can of worms. So yeah, vector search seems + +00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:25.959 +promising. And then hopefully maybe other traditional + +00:06:25.960 --> 00:06:33.439 +synonyms, stemming, that kind of stuff for alternate + +00:06:33.440 --> 00:06:40.199 +terms, that could also be incorporated. + +NOTE Q: When searching by author I know authors may setup a new machine and not put the exact same information. Is this doing anything to combine those into one author? + +00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:43.719 +Okay, next one. When searching by author, I know authors may + +00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.119 +set up a new machine and not put the exact same information. + +00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:49.519 +Is this doing anything to combine these two in one author? + +00:06:49.520 --> 00:06:54.399 +Okay, so for this one, it's not. So it's like the way the get + +00:06:54.400 --> 00:06:58.119 +prior is currently set up is that it just does like a get + +00:06:58.120 --> 00:07:01.999 +command to get all the get authors. You select one and then it + +00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:07.959 +just uses that. But the thing is, is if you knew the two emails + +00:07:07.960 --> 00:07:12.519 +that user might have used, the two usernames, you could just + +00:07:12.520 --> 00:07:14.279 +set up the + +00:07:14.280 --> 00:07:19.799 +two priors. One for the old user's email, and then just add + +00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:24.079 +another prior for the new user's email. And then that would + +00:07:24.080 --> 00:07:29.279 +be a way to just get both of those set up. So that's kind of a + +00:07:29.280 --> 00:07:32.959 +running theme throughout p-search is that It's made to be + +00:07:32.960 --> 00:07:36.239 +very flexible and very kind of like Lego block ish kind of + +00:07:36.240 --> 00:07:39.959 +like you can just, you know, if you need, you know, if + +00:07:39.960 --> 00:07:41.919 +something doesn't meet your needs, you know, it's easy to + +00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:45.959 +put pieces in, create new components of the search + +00:07:45.960 --> 00:07:51.799 +engine. Let's see, a cool powerful grep "Rak" to maybe have + +00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:58.839 +some good ideas. I have searches record code while + +00:07:58.840 --> 00:08:04.039 +searching. Okay. So. Okay, that's interesting. I'll have + +00:08:04.040 --> 00:08:05.239 +to look into this + +00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:15.279 +tool. I haven't seen that. I do kind of keep my eyes out for + +00:08:15.280 --> 00:08:18.199 +these kind of things. One thing I have seen that was kind of + +00:08:18.200 --> 00:08:24.439 +that, I mean, looked interesting was kind of like AST, like + +00:08:24.440 --> 00:08:29.519 +the treesitter, the treesitter grep tools. But like, you + +00:08:29.520 --> 00:08:35.359 +can grep for a string in the language itself. So that's + +00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.959 +something I think would be cool to implement either, + +00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.359 +because I mean, there's treesitter in Emacs, so it's + +00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.519 +possible to do a new list. If not, there are those kind of like + +00:08:44.520 --> 00:08:47.719 +treesitter. So that's, that's something that I think would + +00:08:47.720 --> 00:08:50.719 +be cool to incorporate. + +NOTE Q: Have you thought about integrating results from using cosine similarity with a deep-learning based vector embedding? + +00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:58.279 +Let's see. Have you thought about integrating results from + +00:08:58.280 --> 00:09:00.999 +using cosine similarity with a deep learning based vector + +00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:06.679 +embedding? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, this kind of goes back to + +00:09:06.680 --> 00:09:09.759 +the topic before it. Definitely the whole semantic search + +00:09:09.760 --> 00:09:12.679 +with vector embeddings, that's something that, I mean, it + +00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:15.479 +would be actually kind of trivial to implement that in + +00:09:15.480 --> 00:09:20.239 +p-search. But like I said, computing the cosine similarity + +00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:25.959 +in elisp, it's probably too slow. + +00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:34.879 +And then also there's a whole question of how do you get the embeddings? + +00:09:34.880 --> 00:09:36.919 +Like, how do you get the system running locally on your + +00:09:36.920 --> 00:09:41.239 +machine if you want to run it that or, I mean, so that's + +00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:48.879 +actually another kind of aspect that I need to look into. + +00:09:48.880 --> 00:10:01.939 +Okay, so let's see. + +NOTE Q: Is it possible to save/bookmark searches or search templates so they can be used again and again? + +00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:06.319 +Okay, next question. Let's see. I'm sorry if this has been + +00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:09.079 +covered. Is it possible to save/bookmark searches or search + +00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:14.559 +templates so they can be used again and again? Exactly. So + +00:10:14.560 --> 00:10:18.199 +just recently I added bookmarking capabilities. So + +00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:21.119 +you can essentially just bookmark whatever search session you + +00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:26.359 +have. And yeah, and it's just, it was just a bookmark. You can + +00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:29.839 +just open and just like reopen that, rerun that search from + +00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:36.119 +where you left off. So there's that. And then also, I tried to + +00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:40.559 +set this up so that there is a one-to-one mapping of a Lisp + +00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:44.759 +object to the search session. So from every search session + +00:10:44.760 --> 00:10:49.519 +you make, you should be able to get a, there's a command to do + +00:10:49.520 --> 00:10:55.199 +this, to get a data representation of the search. So it would + +00:10:55.200 --> 00:11:00.079 +just be like some plist. All you have to do is just take that + +00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:04.479 +plist, call this function p-search-setup-buffer with that + +00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:09.119 +data. And then that function should set up the session as you + +00:11:09.120 --> 00:11:12.599 +left off. So then like, you know, you could make your + +00:11:12.600 --> 00:11:15.359 +commands easy. You can make custom search commands super + +00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.919 +easy. You just get the data representation of that search, + +00:11:18.920 --> 00:11:22.519 +find what pieces you want the user to be able to, you know, the + +00:11:22.520 --> 00:11:26.333 +search term, make that a parameter in the + +00:11:26.334 --> 00:11:29.079 +command, in the interactive code. So you'd have like + +00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:31.906 +print on top and then there you go. You have, + +00:11:31.907 --> 00:11:34.327 +you have a command to do the search + +00:11:34.328 --> 00:11:35.759 +just like just right there. So, so + +00:11:35.760 --> 00:11:38.519 +there's a lot of those things and there's a lot more that + +00:11:38.520 --> 00:11:40.999 +could be done. Like maybe having, you know, there's kind of + +00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:45.479 +in the works and like thinking about having groups of groups + +00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.959 +of these things, like maybe you can set up like, Oh, I always + +00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.919 +add these three criteria together. So I, you know, maybe I + +00:11:51.920 --> 00:11:54.559 +can make a preset out of these and make them easy, easily + +00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:58.079 +addable. So yeah. A lot of things like that are, you know, I'm + +00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:02.799 +thinking about a lot of things about that, so. + +NOTE Q: You mentioned about candidate generators. Could you explain about to what the score is assigned to? + +00:12:02.800 --> 00:12:06.079 +Okay, so next question. You mentioned about candidate + +00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:08.479 +generators. Could you explain about what the score is + +00:12:08.480 --> 00:12:12.199 +assigned to? Is this to a line or whatever the candidate + +00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:17.079 +generates? How does it work with our junior demo? Okay, + +00:12:17.080 --> 00:12:21.799 +yeah, so this is a, this is, so actually I had to implement, I + +00:12:21.800 --> 00:12:26.719 +had to rewrite p-search just to get this part right. So the + +00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.159 +candidate generator generates documents. Documents have + +00:12:31.160 --> 00:12:36.919 +properties. So the most notable property is the content + +00:12:36.920 --> 00:12:40.599 +property. So essentially what happens is that when you + +00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:42.879 +create a file system candidate generator and give it a + +00:12:42.880 --> 00:12:45.919 +directory, the code goes into the directory, kind of + +00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:49.079 +recursively goes through all the directories, and + +00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.559 +generates a candidate, which is just like a simple list + +00:12:51.560 --> 00:12:55.679 +form. It's saying, this is a file, the file path is this. So + +00:12:55.680 --> 00:13:00.799 +that's the document ID. So this is saying, this is a file, + +00:13:00.800 --> 00:13:05.559 +it's a file, and its file path is this. And so from that, you + +00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:09.279 +get all of the different properties, the sub properties. If + +00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:11.719 +you're given that, you know how to get the content. If you're + +00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:15.439 +given that, you know how to... So all these properties come + +00:13:15.440 --> 00:13:18.839 +out. And then also the candidate generator is the thing that + +00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:25.439 +knows how best to search for the terms. So for example, there + +00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:29.159 +is a buffer candidate generator. What that does is it just + +00:13:29.160 --> 00:13:34.759 +puts all your buffers as search candidates. So obviously + +00:13:34.760 --> 00:13:37.879 +you can't, you can't run ripgrep on buffers like you can't you + +00:13:37.880 --> 00:13:41.759 +can't do that, you can't run ripgrep on just like yeah just + +00:13:41.760 --> 00:13:44.319 +just like buffers that don't have files attached or, for + +00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:47.559 +example, maybe there's like an internet search candidate + +00:13:47.560 --> 00:13:51.279 +generator, like a web crawler thing. You just imagine it + +00:13:51.280 --> 00:13:55.759 +goes to a website, kind of crawls all the links and all that, + +00:13:55.760 --> 00:13:58.119 +and then just gets your web pages for the candidates. + +00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:01.159 +Obviously, you can't use ripgrep for that either. So, every + +00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:04.679 +candidate generator knows how best to search for the terms + +00:14:04.680 --> 00:14:08.919 +of what candidate it's generating. So, the file system + +00:14:08.920 --> 00:14:12.359 +candidate generator will say, okay, I have a base + +00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:17.239 +directory. So, if you ask me, the file system candidate + +00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:21.239 +generator, how to get the terms, it knows it's set up to use + +00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:25.199 +ripgrep. And so, it runs ripgrep, and so then it goes + +00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:29.439 +through, it runs the command, gets the counts, and then + +00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.359 +store those counts. So, the lines have nothing. At this + +00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.999 +point, the lines have nothing. There's no notion of lines at + +00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:40.559 +all. It's just document, document ID with the amount of + +00:14:40.560 --> 00:14:43.839 +times it matched. And that's all you need to run this BM25 + +00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:47.519 +algorithm. But then when you get the top results, you + +00:14:47.520 --> 00:14:51.359 +obviously want to see the lines that matched. And so there's + +00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:56.399 +another thing, another method to kind of get the exact + +00:14:56.400 --> 00:15:00.559 +thing, to kind of match out the particular lines. And so + +00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:03.159 +that's a separate mechanism. And that can be done in Elist, + +00:15:03.160 --> 00:15:05.719 +because if you're not displaying, that's kind of a design + +00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:09.319 +decision of P-Search, is that it only displays like maybe 10 + +00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:12.519 +or 20. It doesn't display all the results. So you can have + +00:15:12.520 --> 00:15:16.679 +Elist just go crazy with just like highlighting things, + +00:15:16.680 --> 00:15:22.719 +picking the best kind of pieces to show. So yeah, that's how + +00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:27.359 +that's set up. + +00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:38.279 +So, here's perhaps a good moment for me to just jump in and + +00:15:38.280 --> 00:15:42.079 +comment that in a minute or so we will break away with the live + +00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:47.439 +stream to give people an hour of less content to make sure + +00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.639 +everybody goes and takes their lunch and break a little bit. + +00:15:50.640 --> 00:15:55.039 +But if you would like to keep going in here, Love to love to + +00:15:55.040 --> 00:15:59.839 +take as many questions. And, of course, we will include + +00:15:59.840 --> 00:16:06.159 +that all when we publish the Q and A. Sounds good. Yeah, I'll go + +00:16:06.160 --> 00:16:12.199 +and stick around on the stream as we cut away, as we've got a + +00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.999 +little video surprise we've all prepared to play, just some + +00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.359 +comments from an Emacs user dated in 2020 or something like + +00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:29.679 +this. I forget the detail. Thank you again so much, Zac, for + +00:16:29.680 --> 00:16:30.959 +your fascinating talk. + +00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:32.301 +Yeah, so, okay. + +NOTE Q: easy filtering with orderless - did this or something like this help or infulce the design of psearch? + +00:16:32.302 --> 00:16:33.359 +This makes me really think about the + +00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.999 +emergent workflows with Denote and easy filtering with + +00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:36.639 +orderless. + +00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:42.039 +Did this or something like this help influence the design of + +00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:47.359 +p-search? Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, there's + +00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.919 +just so many different searches. Like, it's just kind of + +00:16:49.920 --> 00:16:52.519 +mind-boggling. Like, you could search for whatever you want + +00:16:52.520 --> 00:16:54.599 +on your computer. Like, there's just so much, like, you + +00:16:54.600 --> 00:17:01.199 +can't, yeah, you can't just like, you can't just like hard + +00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.159 +code any of these things. It's all malleable. Like maybe + +00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:09.279 +somebody wants to search these directories. And so, yeah, + +00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:10.639 +like + +00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:18.399 +exactly like that use case of having a directory of files + +00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:18.959 +where + +00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.919 +they contain your personal knowledge management system. + +00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:33.479 +Yeah, that use case definitely was at the top of my mind. + +00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.879 +Let's see. + +00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:56.959 +Let's see, so Git covers the multiple names thing itself. + +NOTE Q: Notmuch with the p-search UI + +00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.359 +Okay, yeah, + +00:18:00.360 --> 00:18:09.599 +so something about notmuch with p-search UI. Actually, + +00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:16.399 +interestingly, I think notmuch is, I haven't used it + +00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:22.759 +myself, but that's the, email something about yeah so i mean + +00:18:22.760 --> 00:18:25.679 +this is like these things are just like these these kind of + +00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.479 +extensions could kind of go go forever but one thing i + +00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.369 +thought about is like i use mu4e for email + +00:18:33.370 --> 00:18:41.119 +and that uses a full-fledged index. And so having + +00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:44.879 +some method to kind of reach into these different systems + +00:18:44.880 --> 00:18:47.938 +and kind of be kind of like a front end for this. + +00:18:47.939 --> 00:18:52.000 +Another thing is maybe SQL database. + +00:18:52.001 --> 00:18:55.823 +You can create a candidate generator from a SQLite query + +00:18:55.824 --> 00:19:01.919 +and then... yeah... + +00:19:02.583 --> 00:19:05.519 +I've had tons of ideas of different things you could + +00:19:05.520 --> 00:19:09.559 +incorporate into the system. Slowly, + +00:19:09.560 --> 00:19:13.599 +they're being implemented. Just recently, I implemented + +NOTE Info + +00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:17.039 +an info file candidate generator. So it lists out all the + +00:19:17.040 --> 00:19:21.559 +info files, and then it creates a candidate for each of the + +00:19:21.560 --> 00:19:26.759 +info nodes. So it turns out, yeah, I mean, it works pretty, I + +00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:32.559 +mean, just as well as Google. So I'm up for my own testing. + +00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:39.999 +Let's see, you can search a buffer using ripgrep feeding in + +00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.759 +as standard in to the ripgrep process, can't you? Yep, yeah, + +00:19:44.760 --> 00:19:50.039 +you can definitely search a buffer that way. So, yeah, I + +00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:56.359 +mean, based off of I mean, if this, yeah, so one thing that + +00:19:56.360 --> 00:19:59.039 +came up is that the system wants, I mean, I wanted the system + +00:19:59.040 --> 00:20:03.559 +to be able to search a lot of different things. And so it came + +00:20:03.560 --> 00:20:05.999 +up that I had, you know, implementing, + +00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:10.159 +doing these search things, having an Elist + +00:20:10.160 --> 00:20:13.079 +implementation, despite it being slow, would be + +00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:17.399 +necessary. So like anything that isn't represented as a + +00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:21.639 +file, Elisp, there's a mechanism in p-search to search for + +00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:23.319 +it. + +00:20:23.320 --> 00:20:29.719 +So, yeah, so having that redundancy kind of lets you get into + +00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:32.799 +the, you know, using kind of ripgrep for the big scale + +00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:37.759 +things. But then when you get to the individual file, you + +00:20:37.760 --> 00:20:40.999 +know, just going back to Elisp to kind of get the finer + +00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:47.199 +details seems to, you know, seems to end up working pretty + +00:20:47.200 --> 00:21:04.239 +well. + +00:21:04.240 --> 00:21:27.399 +Thank you all for listening. Yeah, sounds like we're about + +00:21:27.400 --> 00:21:31.279 +out of questions. Hi, Zacc. I have a question or still a + +00:21:31.280 --> 00:21:34.119 +question. I just want to thank everybody one more time for + +00:21:34.120 --> 00:21:37.719 +their participation, especially you for speaking, Zack. I + +00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.239 +look forward to playing with p-search myself. Thank you. + +00:21:41.240 --> 00:21:44.039 +Yeah, there might be one last question. Is there someone? + +00:21:44.040 --> 00:21:48.519 +Yes, there is. I don't know if you can understand me, but + +00:21:48.520 --> 00:21:50.359 +thank you for making this lovely thing + +00:21:50.360 --> 00:21:57.919 +I feel inspired to try it out and I'm thinking about how to + +00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:04.199 +integrate it because it sounds modular and nicely thought + +00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:09.799 +out. One small question. Have you thought about Project L + +00:22:09.800 --> 00:22:13.719 +integration? And then I have a little bigger question about + +00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:14.879 +the interface. + +NOTE project.el integration + +00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:20.799 +Yeah, project.el integration, it's used in a couple of ways. + +00:22:20.800 --> 00:22:25.719 +It's kind of used to kind of as like kind of like a default. + +00:22:25.720 --> 00:22:31.279 +This is the directory I want to search for the default + +00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:33.639 +p-search command. It does, yeah, it kind of goes off of + +00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:37.119 +project.el. If there is a project, it kind of says, okay, this, + +00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:40.319 +I want to search this project. And so it kind of, it used that + +00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:46.119 +as a default. So there's that. Because I use the project-grep + +00:22:46.120 --> 00:22:50.679 +or git-grep search a lot and maybe this is a better solution to + +00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:55.319 +the search and the interface you have right now for the + +00:22:55.320 --> 00:22:56.476 +search results. + +NOTE Q: How happy are you with the interface? + +00:22:56.477 --> 00:22:58.719 +How happy are you with it and have you + +00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.599 +thought about improving or have you ideas for + +00:23:02.600 --> 00:23:06.639 +improvements? Yeah, well actually what you see in the demo + +00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.199 +in the video isn't... There's actually, there is an + +00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:13.959 +improvement in the current code. Basically, what it + +00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:17.239 +does is it scans there's the current default as it scans + +00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:20.054 +the entire file for all of the searches. + +00:23:20.055 --> 00:23:25.959 +It finds the window that that has the highest score. So it kind + +00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:29.599 +of goes through entire file and just says... And it kind of finds + +00:23:29.600 --> 00:23:33.479 +like the piece of the section of text that has the most + +00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.919 +matches with the terms that score the best. So it's, I mean, + +00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.119 +that section is pretty good. I mean, that, so yeah, that, + +00:23:40.120 --> 00:23:44.519 +that ends up working pretty well. So I mean, in terms of other + +00:23:44.520 --> 00:23:46.879 +UI stuff, there's, there's tons, there's tons more that + +00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:50.159 +could be done, like, especially like debug ability or like + +00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.799 +introspection. Like, so this, this result, like, for + +00:23:53.800 --> 00:23:57.119 +example, this result ranks really high. Maybe you don't + +00:23:57.120 --> 00:24:01.719 +know why though. It's like, because of this, this text query + +00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.479 +arrow, was it because of this criteria? I think + +00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:09.039 +there's some UI elements that could kind of help the user + +00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:12.519 +understand why results are scoring high or low. So that's + +00:24:12.520 --> 00:24:15.639 +definitely... And that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, a + +00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.039 +lot of it is demystifying, like understanding what you're + +00:24:19.040 --> 00:24:22.719 +learning better and not just finding the right thing. A lot + +00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:26.519 +of it is, you know, kind of exploring your data. I love that. + +00:24:26.520 --> 00:24:31.639 +Thanks. Okay. I'm not trying to hurry us through either by + +00:24:31.640 --> 00:24:36.599 +any stretch. I would be happy to see this be a conversation. + +00:24:36.600 --> 00:24:42.359 +I also want to be considerate of your time. And I also wanted to + +00:24:42.360 --> 00:24:45.479 +make a quick shout out to everybody who's been updating and + +00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:50.479 +helping us capture the questions and the comments and the + +00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.639 +etherpad. That's just a big help to the extent that people + +00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.199 +are jumping in there and you know, revising and extending + +00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.799 +and just doing the best job we can to capture all the + +00:24:59.800 --> 00:25:00.799 +thoughtful remarks. + +00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:14.839 +Yeah, thank you, Zac. I'm not too sure what to ask anymore, + +00:25:14.840 --> 00:25:20.559 +but yes, would love to try it out now. Yeah, I mean, + +00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:22.076 +definitely feel free to... + +00:25:22.077 --> 00:25:25.679 +any feedback, here's my mail, or issues... + +00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:29.039 +I mean I'm happy to get any any feedback. It's + +00:25:29.040 --> 00:25:31.679 +still in the early stages, so still kind of a lot of + +00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:35.599 +documentation that needs to be writing. There's a lot. + +00:25:35.600 --> 00:25:38.439 +There's a lot on the roadmap, but yeah, I mean, hopefully, I + +00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:42.759 +could even publish this to ELPA and have a nice + +00:25:42.760 --> 00:25:47.727 +manual so yeah hopefully yeah those come soon. Epic. + +00:25:47.728 --> 00:25:50.279 +That sounds great, yes. + +NOTE gptel + +00:25:50.280 --> 00:25:59.359 +The ability to save your searches kind of reminds me of like + +00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:05.119 +the gptel package for the AI, where you can save searches, + +00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:10.799 +which makes it feel a lot more different. And yeah, we don't + +00:26:10.800 --> 00:26:14.839 +have something for that with search, but yeah, that's a + +00:26:14.840 --> 00:26:19.279 +whole different dynamic where it's like, okay, yeah, and + +00:26:19.280 --> 00:26:24.679 +makes it a unique tool that is, I guess would be unique to + +00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:28.079 +Emacs where you don't see that with like this AI package + +00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:31.119 +where the gptel is kind of unique because it's not just throw + +00:26:31.120 --> 00:26:37.039 +away. It's how did I get this? How did I search for it? And be an + +00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:40.319 +organic search, kind of like the orderless and vertico + +00:26:40.320 --> 00:26:43.039 +and... + +00:26:43.040 --> 00:26:46.279 +Yeah, that's a good, I mean, that brings me to another thing + +00:26:46.280 --> 00:26:48.239 +in that, so, + +00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:53.199 +I mean, you could easily... + +00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:57.399 +you could create bridges from p-search to these different + +00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:01.519 +other packages, like, for example, kind of a RAG search, + +00:27:01.520 --> 00:27:04.679 +like there's this RAG, there's this thing called a RAG + +00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.879 +workflow, which is kind of popular these days. It's like + +00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:11.639 +retrieval augmented generation. So, you do a search and + +00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:14.199 +then based off the search results you get, then you pass + +00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:20.359 +those into LLM. So, the cool thing is that like you could use + +00:27:20.360 --> 00:27:25.119 +p-search for the retrieval. And so you could even like, I + +00:27:25.120 --> 00:27:28.799 +mean, you could even ask an LM to come up with the search terms + +00:27:28.800 --> 00:27:32.079 +and then have it search. There's no + +00:27:32.080 --> 00:27:35.439 +programmatical interface now to do this exact workflow. + +00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:39.039 +But I mean, there's another kind of direction I'm starting + +00:27:39.040 --> 00:27:43.199 +to think about. So like you could have maybe + +00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:47.759 +a question answer kind of workflow where it does + +00:27:47.760 --> 00:27:51.639 +like an initial search for the terms and then you get the top + +00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:57.199 +results and then you can put that through maybe gptel or all + +00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.759 +these other different systems. So that's, and that seems + +00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:01.479 +like a promising thing. And then another thing is like, + +NOTE Saving a search + +00:28:01.480 --> 00:28:10.594 +well, you mentioned the ability to save a search. + +00:28:10.595 --> 00:28:11.479 +One thing I've noticed + +00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.359 +kind of like with the DevOps workflows is, I'll write a + +00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:20.519 +CLI command that I do, or like a calculator command. Then I end + +00:28:20.520 --> 00:28:23.999 +up in the org mode document, write what I wrote, had the + +00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.943 +results in there, and then I'll go back to that. + +00:28:26.944 --> 00:28:31.966 +It's like, oh, this is why, this is that calculation I did + +00:28:31.967 --> 00:28:34.007 +and this is why I did it. + +00:28:34.008 --> 00:28:36.959 +I'll have run the same tool three different + +00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.519 +times to get three different answers, if it was like a + +00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:41.799 +calculator, for example. + +NOTE Workflows + +00:28:41.800 --> 00:28:49.319 +But yeah, that's a very unique feature that isn't seen and + +00:28:49.320 --> 00:28:53.959 +will make me look at it and see about integrating it into my + +00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:59.079 +workflow. Yeah, I think you get on some interesting, you + +00:28:59.080 --> 00:29:03.159 +know, kind of what makes Emacs really unique there and how + +00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.399 +to... interesting kind of ways to exploit + +00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:12.439 +Emacs to learn in the problem. I'm seeing a number of + +00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:15.799 +ways you're getting at that. For example, if I think about + +00:29:15.800 --> 00:29:18.999 +like an automation workflow, and there's just a million + +00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:22.719 +we'll say, assumptions that are baked into a search + +00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:26.719 +product, so to speak, like represented by a Google search or + +00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:31.639 +Bing or what have you. And then as I unpack that and repack it + +00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:35.159 +from an Emacs workflow standpoint, thinking about, well, + +00:29:35.160 --> 00:29:39.079 +first of all, what is the yak I'm shaving? And then also, what + +00:29:39.080 --> 00:29:43.759 +does doing it right mean? How would I reuse this? How would I + +00:29:43.760 --> 00:29:47.679 +make the code accessible to others for their own purposes in + +00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:52.439 +a free software world kind of way? and all of the different + +00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:57.479 +sort of say like orthogonal headspacey kind of things, + +00:29:57.480 --> 00:30:00.079 +right? Emacs brings a lot to the table from a search + +00:30:00.080 --> 00:30:03.719 +standpoint because I'm going to want to think about. I'm + +00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:07.799 +going to want to think about where does the UI come in? Where + +00:30:07.800 --> 00:30:11.399 +might the user want to get involved interactively? Where + +00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.359 +might the user want to get involved declaratively with + +00:30:14.360 --> 00:30:16.919 +their configuration, perhaps based on the particular + +00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:21.359 +environment where this Emacs is running? And there's just a + +00:30:21.360 --> 00:30:24.879 +lot of what Emacs users think about that really applies. + +00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.359 +I'll use the word again, orthogonally across all my many + +00:30:28.360 --> 00:30:33.239 +workflows as an Emacs user. You know, the search is just such + +00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:38.519 +a big word. Yeah, that's actually, this exact point I was + +00:30:38.520 --> 00:30:43.159 +thinking about with this. It's like, I mean, it seems kind of + +00:30:43.160 --> 00:30:46.319 +obvious, like just like using grep or something, just like to + +00:30:46.320 --> 00:30:49.359 +get search counts, like, okay, you can just run the command, + +00:30:49.360 --> 00:30:51.439 +get the term counts and you could just run it through a + +00:30:51.440 --> 00:30:55.959 +relatively simple algorithm. to get your search score. So + +00:30:55.960 --> 00:31:01.759 +if it's this easy, though, why don't we see this in other... And + +00:31:01.760 --> 00:31:06.919 +the results are actually surprisingly good. So why don't we + +00:31:06.920 --> 00:31:10.559 +see this anywhere, really? And it occurred to me that just + +00:31:10.560 --> 00:31:16.399 +the amount of configuration... The amount of setup you have to + +00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:20.039 +do to get it right. + +00:31:20.040 --> 00:31:24.599 +It's above this threshold that you need something like + +00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:27.856 +Emacs to kind of get pushed through that configuration. + +NOTE Transient and configuration + +00:31:27.857 --> 00:31:30.799 +So for example, that's why I rely heavily on transient + +00:31:30.800 --> 00:31:34.119 +to set up the system. 'Cause like, if you want to get good + +00:31:34.120 --> 00:31:36.079 +search results, you're going to have to configure a lot + +00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:38.519 +of stuff. I want this directory. I want this, I don't + +00:31:38.520 --> 00:31:41.559 +want this directory. I want these search terms, you know, + +00:31:41.560 --> 00:31:48.159 +there's a lot to set up. And in most programs, I mean, they + +00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:52.079 +don't have an easy way to, I mean, they'll often try and try to + +00:31:52.080 --> 00:31:55.039 +hide all this complexity. Like they say, okay, our users + +00:31:55.040 --> 00:31:59.199 +too, you know, we don't want to, you know, we don't wanna, you + +00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:02.719 +know, make our users, we don't wanna scare our users with + +00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:06.879 +like, complicated search engine configuration. So we're + +00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:09.079 +just going to do it all in the background and we're just not + +00:32:09.080 --> 00:32:12.599 +going to let the user even know that it's happening. I mean, + +00:32:12.600 --> 00:32:15.119 +that's the third time you've made me laugh out loud. Sorry + +00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:17.879 +for interrupting you, but yeah, you're just spot on there. + +00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:22.999 +You're some people's users. Am I right? like, you know, and + +00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.390 +also some people's workflows. + +NOTE Problem space + +00:32:25.391 --> 00:32:27.719 +And, you know, another case + +00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.799 +where just like, if you're thinking about Emacs, you either + +00:32:30.800 --> 00:32:33.279 +have to pick a tunnel to dive into and be like, no, this is + +00:32:33.280 --> 00:32:37.759 +going to be right for my work, or your problem space is never + +00:32:37.760 --> 00:32:40.879 +ending in terms of discovering the ways other people are + +00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:45.839 +using Emacs and how that breaks your feature. and how that + +00:32:45.840 --> 00:32:49.679 +breaks your conceptualization of the problem space, + +00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:53.559 +right? Or you just have to get so narrowed down that can + +00:32:53.560 --> 00:32:57.119 +actually be hard to find people that are quite understand + +00:32:57.120 --> 00:33:00.279 +you, right? You get into the particular, well, it solves + +00:33:00.280 --> 00:33:03.039 +these three problems for me. Well, what are these three + +00:33:03.040 --> 00:33:08.639 +problems again? And this is a month to unpack. You have Emacs + +00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:12.639 +and I don't know, it's like you got a lot of, they all agree is + +00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:16.559 +like we're going to use elisp to set variables every emacs + +00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:21.199 +package is going to do that we're going to use elisp and have a + +00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:25.479 +search in place to put our documentation and like it does + +00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:32.559 +also eliminate a lot of confusion and gives a lot of + +00:33:32.560 --> 00:33:37.719 +expectations of what they want. One thing that I'm + +00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:39.855 +surprised I haven't seen elsewhere is you have the + +NOTE consult-omni + +00:33:39.856 --> 00:33:44.239 +consult-omni package which allows you to search multiple websites + +00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:49.799 +simultaneously for multiple web search engines. and put + +00:33:49.800 --> 00:33:52.799 +them in one thing and it's like, and then you use orderless. + +NOTE orderless + +00:33:52.800 --> 00:33:55.159 +Why would you use orderless? Because that's what you + +00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:57.799 +configured and you know exactly what you wanna use and you + +00:33:57.800 --> 00:34:01.679 +use the same font and your same mini buffer and you use all + +00:34:01.680 --> 00:34:04.079 +that existing configuration because, well, you're an + +00:34:04.080 --> 00:34:07.599 +Emacs user or like you're a command line user. You know how + +00:34:07.600 --> 00:34:11.559 +you want these applications to go. You don't want them to be + +00:34:11.560 --> 00:34:17.399 +reinvented the wheel 1600 times in 1,600 different ways, + +00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:23.079 +you want it to use your mini buffer, your font, your et + +00:34:23.080 --> 00:34:28.159 +cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But I haven't + +00:34:28.160 --> 00:34:32.479 +seen a website where I can search multiple websites at the + +00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:35.159 +same time in something like Emacs before. And it's like, + +00:34:35.160 --> 00:34:38.319 +yeah, with my sorting algorithm, + +00:34:38.320 --> 00:34:49.359 +Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just setting the + +00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:57.079 +bar for configuration and set up just like, yeah, you have to + +00:34:57.080 --> 00:35:02.839 +have a list. Yeah. I mean, it, it does, obviously it's not, + +00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:05.839 +it's not most beginner beginner friendly, but I mean, it, + +00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:10.319 +yeah, it definitely widens the amount of the solution space + +00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.679 +you can have to such problems. Oh my gosh, you used the word + +00:35:14.680 --> 00:35:18.759 +solution space. I love it. But on the flip side, it's like, + +00:35:18.760 --> 00:35:25.119 +why does Emacs get this consult-omni package? Or let's see, + +00:35:25.120 --> 00:35:30.719 +you have elfeed-youtube where it will put a flowing + +00:35:30.720 --> 00:35:34.479 +transcript on a YouTube video or you got your package. Why + +00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:39.879 +does it get all these applications? And I don't see + +00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:45.679 +applications like this as much outside of Emacs. So there's + +00:35:45.680 --> 00:35:46.267 +a way that it just makes it easier. + +NOTE User interface + +00:35:46.268 --> 00:35:47.479 +It's because user + +00:35:47.480 --> 00:35:51.439 +interface is the, you know, it's the economy stupid of + +00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:58.119 +technology, right? If you grab people by the UX, you can sell + +00:35:58.120 --> 00:36:01.679 +a million of any product that solves problem that I didn't + +00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:04.639 +think technology could solve, or that I didn't think I had + +00:36:04.640 --> 00:36:08.319 +the patience to use technology to solve, which is a lot of + +00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:12.159 +times what it comes down to. And here exactly is the, you + +00:36:12.160 --> 00:36:16.799 +know, the the Emacs sort of conundrum, right? How much time + +00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:20.759 +should I spend today updating my Emacs so that tomorrow I can + +00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:26.319 +just work more, right? And, you know, I love that little + +00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.839 +graph of the Emacs learning curve, right? Where it's this + +00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:33.399 +concentric, it becomes this concentric spiral, right? The + +00:36:33.400 --> 00:36:38.759 +Vim learning curve is like a ladder, right? Or, you know, and + +00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:44.119 +And the nano learning curve is like just a flat plane, you + +00:36:44.120 --> 00:36:49.279 +know, or a ladder, a vertical ladder or a horizontal ladder. + +00:36:49.280 --> 00:36:56.719 +There we go. And the Emacs learning curve is this kind of + +00:36:56.720 --> 00:36:59.799 +straight up line until it curves back on itself and + +00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:03.079 +eventually spirals. And the more you learn, the harder it is + +00:37:03.080 --> 00:37:05.839 +to learn the next thing. And are you really moving forward at + +00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.039 +all? Like, it just works for me. What a great analogy. And + +00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:15.279 +that's my answer, I think. Yeah. You know, it's because + +00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:20.199 +we... The spiral is great. Sorry. There are each of these + +00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:26.639 +weird little packages that some of us, you know, it solves + +00:37:26.640 --> 00:37:29.279 +that one problem and lets us get back to work. And for others, + +00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.439 +it makes us go, gosh, now that makes me rethink a whole bunch + +00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.239 +of things because there's... Like I don't even know what + +00:37:35.240 --> 00:37:37.719 +you're talking about with some of your conceptualizations + +00:37:37.720 --> 00:37:41.039 +of UI. Maybe it comes from Visual Studio, and I've not + +00:37:41.040 --> 00:37:44.679 +used that or something. So for you, it's a perfectly normal UX + +00:37:44.680 --> 00:37:48.799 +paradigm that you kind of lean on for others. It's like you + +00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:51.999 +know occupying some screen space and I don't know what the + +00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:57.759 +gadgets do and when I open them up... They're thinking + +00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.999 +about... they have... they imply their own + +00:38:01.000 --> 00:38:03.639 +abstractions let's say logically against a programming + +00:38:03.640 --> 00:38:06.999 +language. This would be tree sitter, right. If i'm not used to + +00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:11.719 +thinking in terms of an abstract abstract syntax tree, some + +00:38:11.720 --> 00:38:14.799 +of the concepts just aren't as natural for me. If i'm used to + +00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:19.039 +like emacs at a more fundamental level is, or the old modes + +00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:23.479 +right, we're used to them thinking in terms of progressing + +00:38:23.480 --> 00:38:26.959 +forward through some text, managing a stack of markers into + +00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:29.239 +the text, right? It's a different paradigm. The world + +00:38:29.240 --> 00:38:33.559 +changes. Emacs kind of supports it all. That's why all the + +00:38:33.560 --> 00:38:37.039 +apps are built there. That's why when you're talking about + +00:38:37.040 --> 00:38:40.759 +that spiral. what that hints at is that this is really just a + +00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.239 +different algorithm that you're transferring out that + +00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:47.319 +makes some things a lot easier and some things a lot harder. + +00:38:47.320 --> 00:38:51.719 +That's why I was bringing in those three packages, because + +00:38:51.720 --> 00:38:59.708 +in some way it's making these search terms with reusable... + +00:38:59.709 --> 00:39:07.083 +Let's see... saveable buffers or interactive buffers in a way + +00:39:07.084 --> 00:39:10.359 +that... in a way, that is bigger than what I think it should have, + +00:39:10.360 --> 00:39:15.479 +especially in comparison to like how many people use + +00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:20.319 +YouTube, but I don't see very many YouTube apps that will + +00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:26.279 +show Rolling subtitle list that you can click on to move up + +00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:27.315 +and down the video + +00:39:27.316 --> 00:39:30.139 +even though YouTube's been around for years. + +00:39:30.140 --> 00:39:33.359 +Why does Emacs have a very good implementation + +00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:37.159 +that was duct taped together? So before I let you respond to + +00:39:37.160 --> 00:39:40.439 +that, Zac, let me just say we're coming up on eating up a + +00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:43.879 +whole half hour of your lunchtime and thank you for giving us + +00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:47.879 +that extra time. But let me just say, let's, you know, if I + +00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:50.879 +could ask you to take like up to another five minutes and then + +00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.759 +I'll try to kick us off here and make sure everybody does + +00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:54.999 +remember to eat. + +00:39:55.000 --> 00:40:04.119 +Yeah, so yeah, it looks like there's one other question. So + +NOTE Q: Do you think the Emacs being kinda slow will get in the way of being able to run a lot of scoring algorithms? + +00:40:04.120 --> 00:40:06.679 +yeah, do you think Emacs being kind of slow will get in the way + +00:40:06.680 --> 00:40:11.319 +of being able to run a lot of scoring algorithms? So this is + +00:40:11.320 --> 00:40:15.039 +actually a thought I had. Yeah, Emacs, because the code + +00:40:15.040 --> 00:40:19.919 +currently kind of does, I mean, it kind of does, it's kind of + +00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:24.039 +dumb in a lot of places. a lot of times it just, it does just go + +00:40:24.040 --> 00:40:27.599 +through all the files and then just compute some score for + +00:40:27.600 --> 00:40:30.679 +them. But I'm surprised that it's, that part actually isn't + +00:40:30.680 --> 00:40:34.799 +that slow. Like, like it turns out like, okay, like if you + +00:40:34.800 --> 00:40:40.759 +take, for example, Emacs, like the Emacs directory or the + +00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:44.879 +Emacs Git repository, or maybe another big Git repository, + +00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:49.079 +like you could have an Elisp function enumerate those, and + +00:40:49.080 --> 00:40:52.599 +multiply some numbers, maybe multiply 10 numbers + +00:40:52.600 --> 00:41:01.039 +together. And that isn't that slow. And that's the bulk of + +00:41:01.040 --> 00:41:05.799 +what the only thing that Elisp has to do is just like multiply + +00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:11.599 +these numbers. Obviously, if you have to resort to Elisp to + +00:41:11.600 --> 00:41:15.519 +search all the files and you have like 10 or 100,000 files, + +00:41:15.520 --> 00:41:18.759 +then yeah, Emacs will be slow + +00:41:18.760 --> 00:41:23.959 +to manually search, like if you're not using ripgrep or any + +00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:26.839 +faster tool and you have, and you have millions of files and + +00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:30.959 +yeah, it will be slow. But what I noticed though is like, for + +00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:35.119 +example, let's say you want to search for, let's say you want + +00:41:35.120 --> 00:41:40.199 +to search like info directory, like info files for Emacs and + +00:41:40.200 --> 00:41:46.039 +the Emacs info file and the Elisp info file. So those are two + +00:41:46.040 --> 00:41:49.279 +decently sized kind of books, kind of like reference + +00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:50.199 +material on Emacs. + +00:41:50.200 --> 00:41:55.999 +Relying on Elisp to search both of those together, it's + +00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:58.079 +actually pretty, it's actually like almost instant. I + +00:41:58.080 --> 00:42:00.639 +mean, it's not slow enough. So I think that's + +00:42:00.640 --> 00:42:03.679 +another thing is like scale. Like I think on, on kind of like + +00:42:03.680 --> 00:42:09.679 +individual human level scales, I think Elisp can be good + +00:42:09.680 --> 00:42:14.359 +enough. if you're going on the scale of like enterprise, + +00:42:14.360 --> 00:42:18.399 +like all the repositories, all the Git repositories of an + +00:42:18.400 --> 00:42:21.199 +enterprise, then yeah, that scale might, it might, it might + +00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:26.039 +be too much. But I think on, on the scale of what most + +00:42:26.040 --> 00:42:30.519 +individuals have to deal with on a daily basis, like for + +00:42:30.520 --> 00:42:34.719 +example, maybe somebody has some, yeah, I mean, I think it + +00:42:34.720 --> 00:42:36.959 +should, I think it hopefully should be enough. And if not, + +00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.639 +there's always room for optimizations. + +00:42:39.640 --> 00:42:55.999 +Yeah, so so I'll redirect you a little bit because based on a + +00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:00.279 +couple of things I got into, you know, or if you want to be done + +00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:04.759 +be like, you know, give me the hi sign by all means and we can + +00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:08.639 +we can shut up shop, but I'm curious, you know, what are what + +NOTE Boundary conditions + +00:43:08.640 --> 00:43:13.079 +are your boundary conditions? What what tends to cause you + +00:43:13.080 --> 00:43:16.679 +to to to write something more complicated and what what + +00:43:16.680 --> 00:43:20.959 +causes you to? So to work around it with more complex + +00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:23.559 +workflow in Emacs terms, like where do you break out the big + +00:43:23.560 --> 00:43:27.919 +guns? Just thinking about, like search, we talked about, + +00:43:27.920 --> 00:43:31.439 +maybe that's too abstract a question, but just general + +00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:36.679 +usage. Search is an example where almost all of us have + +00:43:36.680 --> 00:43:39.599 +probably written something to go find something, right? + +00:43:39.600 --> 00:43:43.519 +Yeah, I mean, this is a good question. I'm actually of the + +00:43:43.520 --> 00:43:51.999 +idea, at my work, for example, I tried to get rid of all, I + +00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.879 +mean, this is probably a typical Emacs user thing, but like, + +00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:59.319 +I mean, I think that just like getting, just like having + +00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:02.559 +Emacs expand to whatever it can get into and whatever it can + +00:44:02.560 --> 00:44:08.839 +automate, like any task, any, like, just like the more you + +00:44:08.840 --> 00:44:13.719 +can kind of get that coded, I actually find that kind of like, + +00:44:13.720 --> 00:44:20.439 +I mean, it is kind of like a meme. Like, yeah, I have to + +00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.199 +configure my Emacs until it's fun, and then I'll do it. But I + +00:44:24.200 --> 00:44:27.959 +actually I actually think that maybe for like a normal + +00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:31.999 +software developer, if you invest, if you invest, maybe, + +00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:34.839 +maybe you have like some spare time after you've done all + +00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:39.679 +your tasks, if you invest all that time in, in just like kind + +00:44:39.680 --> 00:44:42.359 +of going through all the workflows, all the, you know, just, + +00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:46.279 +just getting all of that in, in Emacs, then I think that that, + +00:44:46.280 --> 00:44:52.039 +that acts as kind of like a, it kind of like a productivity + +00:44:52.040 --> 00:44:56.759 +multiplier. And so. So I found that, I mean, I found to not + +00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:59.519 +have those boundaries. I mean, obviously there's things + +00:44:59.520 --> 00:45:04.599 +you can't do, like web-based things. I mean, that's a hard + +00:45:04.600 --> 00:45:10.199 +boundary, but that's more because... Yeah, there's really + +00:45:10.200 --> 00:45:13.719 +not much to do about that. Nobody's written a front-end + +00:45:13.720 --> 00:45:18.759 +engine, and too much of the forebrain is occupied with + +00:45:18.760 --> 00:45:22.559 +things that should happen on the "end-users + +00:45:22.560 --> 00:45:29.839 +infrastructure", so to speak. So with like 40 seconds left, I + +00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:33.519 +was going to say a minute, but I guess, any final thoughts? + +00:45:33.520 --> 00:45:40.159 +Yeah, I mean, just thank you for listening, and And thank you + +00:45:40.160 --> 00:45:45.559 +for putting this on. It's a really nice conference to have, + +00:45:45.560 --> 00:45:50.679 +and I'm glad things like this exist. So thank you. Yeah, it's + +00:45:50.680 --> 00:45:54.639 +you and the other folks on this call. Thank you so much, + +00:45:54.640 --> 00:45:58.639 +PlasmaStrike, and all the rest of you for hopping on the BBB + +00:45:58.640 --> 00:46:03.119 +and having such an interesting discussion. Keeps it really + +00:46:03.120 --> 00:46:08.239 +fun for us as organizers. And thanks, everybody, for being + +00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:21.320 +here. |