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diff --git a/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-hyperbole--fun-things-with-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-hyperbole--fun-things-with-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..f1425353 --- /dev/null +++ b/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-hyperbole--fun-things-with-gnu-hyperbole--mats-lidell--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,690 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:12.919 +And I believe we are live. Hi, Mats, how are you doing? Oh, I'm + +00:00:12.920 --> 00:00:17.319 +fine. It's a pleasure to see you again after last year. And I + +00:00:17.320 --> 00:00:20.519 +was trying to think about it. We saw you last year, but didn't + +00:00:20.520 --> 00:00:26.919 +we see you as well in 2022? Yes. This is my third year. Yeah, + +00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:29.559 +well, thank you for being a regular at EmacsConf. It's + +00:00:29.560 --> 00:00:31.919 +always a pleasure to have you chat about hyperbole. + +00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:33.559 +Although I think you're the only one chatting about + +00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:37.159 +hyperbole this year compared to last year. Yes, + +00:00:37.160 --> 00:00:41.879 +unfortunately, that's, yeah, Bob has some family issues. + +00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:45.839 +So yeah, I'm here, but I'm here. Yeah, but we are happy to have + +00:00:45.840 --> 00:00:49.199 +you here. And as I was saying before, I'm not sure if you were, + +00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:52.519 +you had the time to watch the previous talk by Mohsen, you + +00:00:52.520 --> 00:00:56.239 +know, you had, there were plenty of ideas, I think that were + +00:00:56.240 --> 00:00:58.999 +very similar to what Hyperbole is trying to do by having + +00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:04.399 +buttons and having stuff that can be in any other mode that + +00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:08.399 +would allow you to supplement a coding file with extra + +00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.879 +information. So the ideas are living on. And even though + +00:01:11.880 --> 00:01:15.239 +hyperbole is one thing, I feel like other packages are also + +00:01:15.240 --> 00:01:17.759 +taking a lot of inspiration for it. So congratulations on + +00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:21.439 +being an inspiration, I suppose. Oh, thanks. + +00:01:21.440 --> 00:01:24.839 +Unfortunately, I have not had any time to watch anything of + +00:01:24.840 --> 00:01:29.759 +the Emacs conference since apparently my life is like every + +00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.559 +time it's Emacs conference, I do something else. So I've been + +00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:37.919 +just moving this weekend. So, I'm in a new apartment, but I'm + +00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.479 +connected and everything seems to work okay. So, I can't + +00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:45.199 +relate to what we said in any of the other talks, I'm afraid. + +00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:48.199 +So, sorry about that. No, that's okay. No, but that's + +00:01:48.200 --> 00:01:51.559 +completely fine, because you may be able to watch the talks + +00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:54.599 +at any point later on, because I'll remind the viewers that + +00:01:54.600 --> 00:01:57.319 +the talks are currently available on EmacsConf or the + +00:01:57.320 --> 00:02:01.199 +pre-recorded one. And I think we only had one live talk + +00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.239 +yesterday. All of them are already available with + +00:02:04.240 --> 00:02:08.039 +subtitles and all the funny stuff that we usually put. So + +00:02:08.040 --> 00:02:11.359 +that's an invitation for people to watch it. All right. So, + +00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.439 +Mats, before we start with the questions, I see people in the + +00:02:14.440 --> 00:02:17.959 +process of writing them. Was there anything else you wanted + +00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:21.159 +to add on top of your presentation? Maybe some supplements + +00:02:21.160 --> 00:02:29.039 +or whatnot? No, no. Nothing to add. Right. I mean, this year + +00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:31.519 +was more a bag of tricks, some new stuff that you've + +00:02:31.520 --> 00:02:36.159 +implemented in Hyperbole. And it's fun because I see the UI + +00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.159 +that you have for some of those modes. And earlier, you + +00:02:40.160 --> 00:02:42.399 +weren't able to watch those talks, but we were talking a lot + +00:02:42.400 --> 00:02:46.119 +about Transient and about what it allows you to do in terms of + +00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.039 +interactivity. I'm actually familiar with Transient. No, + +00:02:51.040 --> 00:02:56.279 +no, no. It's a mode written by Tarsius, so Jonas Bernoulli, + +00:02:56.280 --> 00:03:01.599 +the person behind Magit, and it's a very nice way to create + +00:03:01.600 --> 00:03:06.319 +menus for interactive setups. So, if you are interested in + +00:03:06.320 --> 00:03:10.039 +perhaps augmenting what you currently have with + +00:03:10.040 --> 00:03:12.959 +Hyperbole, it might be nice to look into Transient because I + +00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.359 +think this is heading towards eventually being merged into + +00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:18.879 +the core of Emacs. I mean, don't quote me on this. and I'm not + +00:03:18.880 --> 00:03:21.719 +sure how Tarsius feels about it, but because of the + +00:03:21.720 --> 00:03:25.879 +adoption, because Magit obviously uses transient, Org is + +00:03:25.880 --> 00:03:28.839 +trying to make a move towards adopting transient, it feels + +00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.479 +like Hyperbole would do well as well to adopt it because it's + +00:03:32.480 --> 00:03:36.799 +starting to become a grammar of general UI at this point. + +00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.839 +Yeah, now when you mention it, I remember because I'm a heavy + +00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:47.519 +user of Magic, of course. So I know Transient that way. I know + +00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:50.999 +also that people have been complaining about Hyperbole's + +00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:56.079 +menu system. You know that Hyperbole reach back to + +00:03:56.080 --> 00:04:02.639 +something like 1993, so it has some maybe things that are not + +00:04:02.640 --> 00:04:07.279 +modern in that sense. So we have it on the plate to maybe look + +00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:11.479 +into these things and how we can sort of make things modern, + +00:04:11.480 --> 00:04:16.279 +etc. Sure, but it's completely fine to take your time. You + +00:04:16.280 --> 00:04:19.359 +don't necessarily have to follow the latest fads when it + +00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:24.439 +comes to completion engines or interactive engines like + +00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:26.879 +Transient is. I'm not actually sure how you would call + +00:04:26.880 --> 00:04:31.519 +Transient. Is this a UI maker, an interaction engine? I + +00:04:31.520 --> 00:04:36.559 +don't know. I'll need to ask Tarsius at some point. All + +00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.439 +right. Okay. Okay so let's move on to the questions. We've + +00:04:41.440 --> 00:04:45.719 +got a couple of them and for the Q&A we'll have about five + +00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.199 +minutes and 30 seconds until we got to lunch. So starting + +00:04:49.200 --> 00:04:51.193 +with the first question. + +NOTE Q: How is the log buffer generated? + +00:04:51.194 --> 00:04:52.679 +How is the log buffer generated in + +00:04:52.680 --> 00:04:56.719 +your presentation? But it's a very quick answer to this. + +00:04:56.720 --> 00:04:59.839 +We recommend at EmacsConf that speakers use the + +00:04:59.840 --> 00:05:02.679 +interaction-log package, which allows you to have a + +00:05:02.680 --> 00:05:07.879 +slightly prettier lossage. Lossage being in Emacs how you + +00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:10.359 +call the comments that you've used. And so if you're + +00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:12.439 +interested in using this for your own presentation, + +00:05:12.440 --> 00:05:17.519 +interaction log, and you'll be able to find it fairly + +00:05:17.520 --> 00:05:18.999 +easily. + +00:05:19.000 --> 00:05:21.050 +Moving to the next question. + +NOTE Q: So, the "select a thing" C-c RET is similar to expand-region? How does it behave in codes (functions, class, ...) + +00:05:21.051 --> 00:05:23.651 +So the selector thing C-c RET + +00:05:23.652 --> 00:05:26.479 +is similar to expand-region. How does it behave in + +00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:31.999 +codes i.e functions or class? + +00:05:32.000 --> 00:05:45.319 +Well I think it behaves exactly the same. I mean in the + +00:05:45.320 --> 00:05:50.079 +In any sort of buffer, it might depend on what + +00:05:50.080 --> 00:05:54.679 +constitutes a word, et cetera, and a sentence in the mood. + +00:05:54.680 --> 00:06:00.799 +That's how I would say it. Right. + +00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:09.279 +I'm just, in that sense, I'm just a user of the function. I + +00:06:09.280 --> 00:06:12.359 +haven't implemented it. I haven't tested it more than that. + +00:06:12.360 --> 00:06:17.959 +We can do this as a demo that you start with maybe select a + +00:06:17.960 --> 00:06:21.999 +small thing and by hitting it over and over again, you select + +00:06:22.000 --> 00:06:26.399 +more and more. Yeah, but it's completely fine sometimes to + +00:06:26.400 --> 00:06:30.199 +merely be a user of something, you know. It's easy. It's a + +00:06:30.200 --> 00:06:33.079 +testament to how amazing Emacs is because everything is + +00:06:33.080 --> 00:06:35.759 +written in Lisp in the background, that as soon as you start + +00:06:35.760 --> 00:06:38.119 +becoming a maintainer of something, you kind of expect it to + +00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:40.639 +just be able to understand everything else. And whilst it's + +00:06:40.640 --> 00:06:43.919 +technically true, the limiter here is the amount of time + +00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.199 +that you can invest looking at the definitions, + +00:06:47.200 --> 00:06:50.359 +understanding what they do, and sadly we don't have the time + +00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:53.319 +to do all of this. And especially with Hyperbole, which is + +00:06:53.320 --> 00:06:55.959 +obviously interacting with major modes in something that + +00:06:55.960 --> 00:07:01.239 +is more involved than Org mode, for instance. We do have + +00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:05.879 +another question. So, I know you Hyperbole devs are active + +00:07:05.880 --> 00:07:08.919 +and interested in sharing and interoperating with other + +00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:09.971 +Emacs tools. + +NOTE Q: What is a recent tool that you find exciting to think about using in combination with Hyperbole, or would like to suggest using in combination with it? + +00:07:09.972 --> 00:07:11.839 +What is a recent tool that you find exciting to + +00:07:11.840 --> 00:07:14.799 +think about using in combination with Hyperbole or would + +00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:21.599 +like to suggest using in combination with it? Well, lately + +00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.519 +we've been focusing a lot of sort of trying to make Hyperbole + +00:07:24.520 --> 00:07:29.639 +work together with Org Mode and in in a good way so they can + +00:07:29.640 --> 00:07:36.119 +sort of, I mean... The idea with Hyperbole is not to be better + +00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.119 +than everything else, but more to be like the glue or spider + +00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:46.349 +that could integrate different modes in a good way together. + +00:07:46.350 --> 00:07:51.359 +So that being top of everything. And Org is a very + +00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:55.559 +popular mode, and there are a lot of sub-modes, or whatever + +00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.519 +you can call it, with Org for information management. And we + +00:07:59.520 --> 00:08:03.119 +would want Hyperbole to work together with Org in a good way, + +00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:09.119 +so Org users could benefit from Hyperbole as well. So we put + +00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.319 +in some effort in that. But I think there's a lot of way to go. + +00:08:13.320 --> 00:08:17.319 +There's much more that can be done there as well because + +00:08:17.320 --> 00:08:21.559 +different modes can easily compete in a bad way in the + +00:08:21.560 --> 00:08:26.519 +details. So it's a little bit of a tricky thing, especially + +00:08:26.520 --> 00:08:32.839 +like we have this and how probably we have this M-RET + +00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:36.319 +for the action production key and that's also used in many + +00:08:36.320 --> 00:08:40.639 +modes. So we would really, in the best of words, we would like + +00:08:40.640 --> 00:08:46.388 +Emacs to sort of come to some agreement on using of the + +00:08:46.389 --> 00:08:52.759 +M-RET in a good way for modes to sort of be able to work and + +00:08:52.760 --> 00:08:58.119 +live together. Yeah, I mean it's a tough thing to share the + +00:08:58.120 --> 00:09:01.759 +key bindings and the grammar of interaction between + +00:09:01.760 --> 00:09:04.719 +packages because you tell me M-RET, I don't want you + +00:09:04.720 --> 00:09:07.759 +to touch M-RET. For me it's just inserting a new line + +00:09:07.760 --> 00:09:10.639 +and not adding indentation at the start and everyone is + +00:09:10.640 --> 00:09:14.639 +going to have their own you know, feelings and thoughts about + +00:09:14.640 --> 00:09:17.959 +this, so it's really hard to impose any kind of system on + +00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.559 +this. But I'm glad to hear that you're looking into + +00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:23.239 +interaction with Org Mode because I remember the questions + +00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.359 +we were having on your first conference when people were + +00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.959 +asking, oh I'm so glad that you're talking about Hyperbole + +00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.719 +because the only way I'm interacting with it is when people + +00:09:31.720 --> 00:09:35.599 +chat about Org Mode and then whenever we had announcements + +00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.039 +about Hyperbole, be it on Reddit, be it on Hacker News, + +00:09:39.040 --> 00:09:41.999 +people would say, but don't we already have Org Mode? And we + +00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.879 +won't get into the topic again, because I think you've done a + +00:09:44.880 --> 00:09:47.279 +wonderful job of explaining the differences in previous + +00:09:47.280 --> 00:09:51.359 +years. And today, the conference, your talk at the + +00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:54.199 +conference also made it obvious that it's doing something + +00:09:54.200 --> 00:09:58.039 +that Org Mode is not able to do. But ultimately, being able to + +00:09:58.040 --> 00:10:00.254 +interface between the two is something great. + +NOTE On Ihor as the new maintainer for Org Mode + +00:10:00.255 --> 00:10:02.676 +And I kind of wanted to ask you as well the question, + +00:10:02.677 --> 00:10:04.719 +because you haven't + +00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:10.199 +seen the talk, but yesterday we had the announcement that + +00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.879 +Ihor Radchenko was becoming the new maintainer of Org Mode. + +00:10:13.880 --> 00:10:18.799 +So obviously, a new maintainer introduces idea of changes + +00:10:18.800 --> 00:10:23.719 +of, you know, philosophy and strategy and all this. Is this + +00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:28.199 +somehow on your end with Hyperbole inspiring you perhaps to + +00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.999 +also innovate in a sense to maybe try to change the way some + +00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:32.559 +things are done? + +00:10:32.560 --> 00:10:45.239 +Hmm, tricky question. I know, right? Yeah, no, well, I don't + +00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:46.159 +know. + +00:10:46.160 --> 00:10:52.799 +I don't know if it answers the question, but we have this + +00:10:52.800 --> 00:11:02.919 +idea that we meet and work from our point of view. And then we + +00:11:02.920 --> 00:11:07.679 +pick up maybe details from the outside world. So we're not + +00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:13.079 +heavily looking into what happens in the rest of the world + +00:11:13.080 --> 00:11:17.239 +when it comes to Emacs and personal information + +00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:21.159 +management, etc. But but we do pick up some ideas. + +00:11:21.160 --> 00:11:26.719 +Sometimes. But yeah, we mostly do hacking and then we want to + +00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:31.639 +we meet once a week and work on hyperbole and you know, so + +00:11:31.640 --> 00:11:35.599 +Yeah, that's already very cool. And the reason I'm + +00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.799 +mentioning this is not because I know that you are operating + +00:11:38.800 --> 00:11:42.079 +in a little bit of a silo when it comes to all of Hyperbole, but + +00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:45.399 +it's always nice for me personally to see a lot of energy + +00:11:45.400 --> 00:11:49.039 +being brought in by people. Whenever there's a new major + +00:11:49.040 --> 00:11:52.919 +version being published, be it Org Mode or be it Hyperbole, + +00:11:52.920 --> 00:11:55.519 +people are excited. There's a lot of energy in here because + +00:11:55.520 --> 00:11:58.039 +people are chatting about what you're doing. And that's why + +00:11:58.040 --> 00:12:02.399 +I find that people, a new maintenanceship for Org Mode + +00:12:02.400 --> 00:12:05.199 +actually benefits Hyperbole in a way because you get a lot of + +00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:07.559 +excitement, a lot of people thinking and bringing ideas to + +00:12:07.560 --> 00:12:12.279 +the table. And I think it's a prime time to actually try I'm + +00:12:12.280 --> 00:12:14.599 +using the word stealing, but in a very nice way, stealing in + +00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.519 +terms of floss, stealing some ideas and trying to see if you + +00:12:17.520 --> 00:12:21.199 +can run with them on your own end. And that's also why I was + +00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.479 +suggesting transient, because transient looks like it's + +00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:28.759 +on its path to reach core at some point. And it would be nice if + +00:12:28.760 --> 00:12:31.479 +you had the idea early on to integrate with it, because it + +00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.319 +might save you time later on and make your user happy, + +00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:37.319 +because they can find the same grammar between the Git, + +00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:41.639 +between org mode, and between hyperbole. All right. Is + +00:12:41.640 --> 00:12:46.439 +there... I don't think... Yeah, go on, please. Yeah, I just + +00:12:46.440 --> 00:12:49.879 +want to add on that, that, I mean, as an ultimate goal, in the + +00:12:49.880 --> 00:12:56.679 +far distance, we would want sort of Hyperbole or hyperbole + +00:12:56.680 --> 00:13:00.399 +type of functionality be part of the core Emacs. So in that + +00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:06.839 +sense, it's sort of totally sort of okay with us that + +00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.599 +different packages steal ideas and try to merge them into + +00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:16.359 +sort of the core system. Yeah. All right, I don't see any more + +00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.279 +questions, so I think we can move to close. Actually, we're + +00:13:19.280 --> 00:13:22.439 +actually three minutes over time, so I'm glad we managed to + +00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.759 +discuss a little more, but that's fine. Mats, do you have + +00:13:24.760 --> 00:13:31.519 +any last words? I'll try it out. Okay, well, then, you heard + +00:13:31.520 --> 00:13:35.479 +it, everyone. Just try it out. Try it out, and if you like it, + +00:13:35.480 --> 00:13:37.239 +you can join us on Sundays + +00:13:37.240 --> 00:13:41.959 +Right. And every Sunday, well, if you do not know what to do, + +00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:44.919 +you know, here's an idea for you. All right. Thank you so + +00:13:44.920 --> 00:13:47.079 +much, Mats, for coming again to Emacs Conf. And we look + +00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:50.319 +forward, perhaps, to seeing you next year. Yes. I'll be + +00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:55.119 +there. Hopefully, I can see some of the presentations live + +00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:58.399 +then. OK. That's OK. You've got the entire year to catch up on + +00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:01.159 +the ones you haven't seen this year and next year. But you'll + +00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:04.359 +have the time to catch another one live. All right. Yes. + +00:14:04.360 --> 00:14:09.519 +Great! For the folks watching, we will be taking a break, a + +00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:14.039 +one hour and one minute break. We'll be back at 1 p.m. EST and I + +00:14:14.040 --> 00:14:21.479 +think if my UTC conversion is working right, it should be 6 + +00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.679 +p.m. UTC, so at least in one hour. All right, see you in a bit + +00:14:24.680 --> 00:14:30.159 +folks! Oh yes, and sorry, I've got a little elf speaking + +00:14:30.160 --> 00:14:32.999 +in my ears. In case you're interested in discussing further + +00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:35.999 +hyperbole with Mats, Mats is in the room right now and I see + +00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:39.919 +people have joined the BBB chat. So if you want to join and + +00:14:39.920 --> 00:14:42.439 +chat directly with Mats, I'm sure Mats would be more than + +00:14:42.440 --> 00:14:44.999 +happy to answer your questions. And obviously everything + +00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.239 +has been recorded and will be published later on. But for me, + +00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:54.119 +I will use the break to rest a little bit and I'll be back in the + +00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:59.039 +afternoon. All right, see you folks. Bye, take a break. + +00:14:59.040 --> 00:15:03.160 +Okay. |