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diff --git a/2023/info/test-after.md b/2023/info/test-after.md index 0d627caf..413f1f6d 100644 --- a/2023/info/test-after.md +++ b/2023/info/test-after.md @@ -513,6 +513,478 @@ [[!template text="""if it is not optimal or not having the best style.""" start="00:26:43.320" video="mainVideo-test" id="subtitle"]] [[!template text="""And yes, thanks for listening. Bye.""" start="00:26:47.800" video="mainVideo-test" id="subtitle"]] +<a name="test-qanda-transcript"></a> +# Q&A transcript (unedited) + +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Do we have any listeners?""" start="00:00:08.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It's you and I. I have a question.""" start="00:00:13.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""How many tests do you have for hyperbole and""" start="00:00:16.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""How would you rate the test coverage compared""" start="00:00:18.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to other packages? Well,""" start="00:00:21.279" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that's a tricky 1. Shall I spell it out loud""" start="00:00:28.279" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and then maybe type it at the same time?""" start="00:00:31.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So, I believe it's around like more than 300""" start="00:00:36.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test cases now. But I cannot compare the test""" start="00:00:43.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""coverage to any other""" start="00:00:45.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""other package. Maybe I can type that later.""" start="00:01:00.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""What do you say, Badal?""" start="00:01:01.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: package. I have no knowledge of any Yeah,""" start="00:01:02.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""sure, yeah, that's totally fine.""" start="00:01:03.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Feel free to just answer them with voice.""" start="00:01:05.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah. There's another question.""" start="00:01:08.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""1 small suggestion to me,""" start="00:01:10.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""should means optional,""" start="00:01:11.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""where shall or must means required.""" start="00:01:13.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Not sure if it is too late to make a major""" start="00:01:15.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""grammar change like that.""" start="00:01:17.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Very nice presentation.""" start="00:01:18.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So thanks for presentation,""" start="00:01:19.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but the package ERT, well,""" start="00:01:24.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it's not something that we have come up with.""" start="00:01:27.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It's a standard package.""" start="00:01:28.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So I believe it has been around for a long""" start="00:01:32.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""time. So, but please feel free to make""" start="00:01:37.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""suggestions and maybe you can,""" start="00:01:39.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you know, like do a copy or like an alias for""" start="00:01:43.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that. If you believe it makes more sense for""" start="00:01:46.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""your test cases to have that instead.""" start="00:01:48.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And then we have another question here.""" start="00:01:53.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""For your info, you may find this helpful for""" start="00:01:55.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""running MX test lint both from a command line""" start="00:01:58.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and from within MX with a transit menu.""" start="00:02:01.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""GitHub alpha papa make sure,""" start="00:02:03.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""yes. It also works on remote CI.""" start="00:02:06.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Yeah, thank you, Alpha Papa.""" start="00:02:08.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I think I've looked into that,""" start="00:02:10.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but we haven't made any use of that.""" start="00:02:13.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But maybe you'll inspire me to give it""" start="00:02:17.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""another look.""" start="00:02:18.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: Hey guys.""" start="00:02:29.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: I remember, I recognize that voice.""" start="00:02:34.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Hi, Bob. Hey, how are you?""" start="00:02:37.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Congratulations, man. Thanks,""" start="00:02:40.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Hugh. Thank you. I have another question""" start="00:02:43.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""here. It is easy to run ad hoc tests inside""" start="00:02:45.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""an Emacs session given the command line""" start="00:02:48.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""scripts you need to run to get the batch test""" start="00:02:51.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""session running? You said it's to run an""" start="00:02:54.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""ad-hoc test. I'm not sure I understand that""" start="00:03:05.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""question. Yes, please.""" start="00:03:14.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: Maybe I can rephrase. Sure.""" start="00:03:15.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So I think what I understand is that since""" start="00:03:19.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you have to use some of these command lines""" start="00:03:22.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""scripts to get a batch test session running,""" start="00:03:25.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""is it easy to run ad hoc tests in an Emacs""" start="00:03:28.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""session or does that, like in your""" start="00:03:30.700" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""experience, has that been difficult?""" start="00:03:32.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Well, from the command line,""" start="00:03:36.820" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if you look at the command line,""" start="00:03:38.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you'll see that it's only like a few image""" start="00:03:44.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functions to call to get that behavior to run""" start="00:03:46.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the batch tests. So I think we made some""" start="00:03:55.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""support function for that in hyperbole.""" start="00:03:57.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So it's not, I don't think it's possible out""" start="00:04:02.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of the box to do it, but it's not complicated""" start="00:04:05.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to do it.""" start="00:04:08.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: You can define a test anytime,""" start="00:04:12.190" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""right? Just like a new function.""" start="00:04:14.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So that's ad hoc. You just write your test""" start="00:04:18.899" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and you can run it.""" start="00:04:20.019" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, of course,""" start="00:04:22.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but I got the impression it was about running""" start="00:04:25.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""all your tests like we did with the command""" start="00:04:28.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""line. Well, so the question is more about how""" start="00:04:35.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""would you run all your test cases from within""" start="00:04:38.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Emacs? And the easy answer to that is""" start="00:04:44.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""actually you load all your test case files,""" start="00:04:48.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and then you run ERT with the T as the test""" start="00:04:51.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""selector and then it will run all your test""" start="00:04:53.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""cases.""" start="00:04:53.880" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: Right. And I think they have expanded on""" start="00:05:01.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""their question a little bit as well,""" start="00:05:03.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""clarifying that. In other words,""" start="00:05:04.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""can you tweak tests in an Emacs session and""" start="00:05:07.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""run them right away? Which I believe,""" start="00:05:08.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if I understand correctly what Bob was""" start="00:05:11.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""saying, you can basically define or redefine""" start="00:05:13.820" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functions on the fly and then have them be""" start="00:05:15.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""run, right?""" start="00:05:16.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yes, yes. You just go into that test case and""" start="00:05:22.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you just change it and you run it again.""" start="00:05:24.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And either you have to sort of load it or you""" start="00:05:29.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""can use like the commercial thing I did.""" start="00:05:31.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You use hyperbole and just hit meta return on""" start="00:05:36.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the test case and it will load it and run the""" start="00:05:38.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test case again. So that's of course what you""" start="00:05:42.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""normally do when you're defining a test or""" start="00:05:44.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""debug a test case or develop a test case.""" start="00:05:47.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Just start with something small,""" start="00:05:49.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""just make sure maybe you can prepare the test""" start="00:05:52.700" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""properly and run it again and again and again""" start="00:05:55.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""until you're ready with it.""" start="00:05:56.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""That's a good point. You can definitely do""" start="00:05:59.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that and that's part of how I normally""" start="00:06:02.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""develop the test cases that I mean start with""" start="00:06:06.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""something small so I can see that I get there""" start="00:06:09.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""maybe the right input in the buffer that I""" start="00:06:12.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""want to test on or something and I expand on""" start="00:06:14.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that more and more and add more and more more""" start="00:06:18.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and more more""" start="00:06:18.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: tests to it. You might tell them a bit about""" start="00:06:31.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""how many test cases you have.""" start="00:06:33.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I guess you commented on that and like what""" start="00:06:36.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""happens, you know, with the CICD pipeline,""" start="00:06:40.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""every time we commit, you know,""" start="00:06:43.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""across all the versions and what you have set""" start="00:06:46.360" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""up there because you know I wish people could""" start="00:06:48.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""see it. You can go and check on GitHub and""" start="00:06:53.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you can see the logs right of any of the""" start="00:06:57.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""builds and but tell them a bit about that""" start="00:06:59.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Mats because I think that's pretty""" start="00:07:01.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""impressive.""" start="00:07:01.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Well, that's part of more the CI,""" start="00:07:07.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""CD, part of how we developed this using""" start="00:07:11.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""GitHub and workflows that you get out of the""" start="00:07:15.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""box from there. So this more than 300 test""" start="00:07:20.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""cases on our round for I think 5 different""" start="00:07:23.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""versions of Emacs when we do a pull request""" start="00:07:26.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""or a commit. So that's a good way to ensure""" start="00:07:33.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that it works from version 27.2""" start="00:07:38.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""up to the latest master version because""" start="00:07:42.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""there's some changes in Emacs over different""" start="00:07:45.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""versions that can affect your functions or""" start="00:07:48.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""your code.""" start="00:07:49.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: They all run in parallel and so typically in""" start="00:07:56.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""under 60 seconds I think you've got all of""" start="00:08:00.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""them run so you've got pretty extensive""" start="00:08:03.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""testing which does catch interesting bugs""" start="00:08:08.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""here and there, right?""" start="00:08:09.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yes, of course it does.""" start="00:08:13.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I mean, you normally develop with 1 version""" start="00:08:18.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and then you think everything is okay.""" start="00:08:20.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But then when you're tested with the""" start="00:08:21.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""different versions, you find out that there""" start="00:08:23.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""are some changes and there are things you""" start="00:08:26.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""might not sort of keep track of what's""" start="00:08:30.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""happening also. So that's a way to get""" start="00:08:34.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""noticed that the core developers of Emacs""" start="00:08:38.559" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have changed something that you sort of based""" start="00:08:41.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""your code on. Now I got another question""" start="00:08:44.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""here. Did you have to change hyperbole code""" start="00:08:47.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and design to be more readily testable as you""" start="00:08:50.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""were increasing your test coverage?""" start="00:08:52.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Well, we haven't done that to a lot,""" start="00:08:55.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to a big degree, although I believe that that""" start="00:09:00.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""is an important thing for sort of the future""" start="00:09:03.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to do that because some of the hyperbolic""" start="00:09:06.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functions are very complicated and long and""" start="00:09:08.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that makes testing them rather difficult.""" start="00:09:10.640" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So, at a few places we have sort of broken up""" start="00:09:14.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functions in smaller pieces so it'd be easier""" start="00:09:17.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to do like unit tests of the different parts""" start="00:09:20.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of it. But there's a lot of more work that""" start="00:09:27.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""has to be done there.""" start="00:09:28.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: 1 of the nice things is you know the great""" start="00:09:33.820" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""environment in Lisp where we're able to do a""" start="00:09:36.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""lot of interactive bottom-up testing before""" start="00:09:40.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""we even get to lighting tech pieces.""" start="00:09:42.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So it does tend to be more higher level bugs,""" start="00:09:48.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I think, that get caught in cross-functional""" start="00:09:51.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""interaction. We had 1 recently that was an""" start="00:09:55.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Emacs version change. It had been a function""" start="00:09:58.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that had existed for a long time.""" start="00:10:01.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It had an and rest in it,""" start="00:10:03.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""in its argument list, so it would assemble""" start="00:10:05.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the list of arguments from individual""" start="00:10:08.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""arguments that you would give it,""" start="00:10:10.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and they decided in a recent version,""" start="00:10:13.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I think with Stefan's input,""" start="00:10:15.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to change that to a list and allow the prior""" start="00:10:19.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""behavior, but it would issue a warning if you""" start="00:10:22.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""use the prior behavior.""" start="00:10:23.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So all of a sudden, the way you were supposed""" start="00:10:25.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""to do it became semi-invalid.""" start="00:10:27.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And so we started getting the warning,""" start="00:10:30.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and we've tried to eliminate all those""" start="00:10:32.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""warnings in recent hyperbole developments.""" start="00:10:35.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So we're like, what do we do?""" start="00:10:37.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You know, because we wanted to be backward""" start="00:10:39.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""compatible to where you couldn't use a list.""" start="00:10:42.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It required you to use individual arguments.""" start="00:10:44.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And now it's sort of requiring you to do""" start="00:10:48.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that. And all of that was caused by the""" start="00:10:51.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""automatic testing on it.""" start="00:10:52.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So you said, Max, you were going to tell us""" start="00:11:08.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""what you learned. So what are the major""" start="00:11:12.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""things that you learned in doing all of this""" start="00:11:15.368" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""work? All of this work?""" start="00:11:15.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Well, I tried to cover some of it in the""" start="00:11:26.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""presentation, but as I was going along,""" start="00:11:29.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the presentation became like twice as long as""" start="00:11:33.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""fitted into the time we had so I had to cut""" start="00:11:36.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it out. But I think some of the core things""" start="00:11:42.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""still is in the presentation.""" start="00:11:44.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""From a personal perspective,""" start="00:11:49.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And this might not be hard to realize,""" start="00:11:52.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but forcing yourself to test functions,""" start="00:11:56.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test code really forces you to understand the""" start="00:12:02.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""code a little bit better in a way that sort""" start="00:12:05.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""of makes it easier than just to read the""" start="00:12:07.300" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""code. I don't know how it is for the rest""" start="00:12:11.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""listening to this, but for me it works so""" start="00:12:13.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that if I just read the code then I don't""" start="00:12:16.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""sort of become as sharp as I should be but if""" start="00:12:20.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I try to write the test case for it then I""" start="00:12:22.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""really need to understand better of all the""" start="00:12:24.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""edge cases and all the sort of states and etc""" start="00:12:27.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that is involved and I think that's That's""" start="00:12:30.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""what's sort of 1 of the learning things I""" start="00:12:33.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""wanted to communicate as well that I don't""" start="00:12:34.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""think I covered in detail in the""" start="00:12:38.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""presentation. Maybe all this,""" start="00:12:41.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but try it. 1 other sort of more from the fun""" start="00:12:48.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""side is that I really think it's fun to write""" start="00:12:50.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the test. So if you haven't tests in your""" start="00:12:55.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""package, you should start doing that because""" start="00:12:58.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it is fun. It might feel like some extra""" start="00:13:05.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""work, but it really pays off in the long run,""" start="00:13:08.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""especially if you have it in like a pipeline""" start="00:13:10.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and where you can run it regularly when you""" start="00:13:12.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""do new commits, et cetera.""" start="00:13:13.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So, I mean, that's maybe obvious from,""" start="00:13:16.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if you look from the commercial side or your""" start="00:13:19.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""work side to do it like that.""" start="00:13:21.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But even for your hobby project,""" start="00:13:22.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it can be very sort of pay off really well.""" start="00:13:26.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: It's worked really well when we're adding new""" start="00:13:32.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""functionality or we're changing some of the""" start="00:13:35.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""plumbing in the system.""" start="00:13:36.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You know, you go and you do some surgery and""" start="00:13:40.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""then you run the tests.""" start="00:13:41.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And sometimes 6 to 10 tests will fail.""" start="00:13:45.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And you find there, you know,""" start="00:13:48.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it tends to be they're all interconnected and""" start="00:13:50.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it leads you back to the single source.""" start="00:13:52.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You fix that and you know it could be an edge""" start="00:13:56.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""case and off by 1 or Sometimes it's an""" start="00:14:00.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""assumption about the way something is used""" start="00:14:03.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and it's not actually always true.""" start="00:14:05.980" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And so, Matt's just really good at""" start="00:14:09.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""identifying some of those scenarios and""" start="00:14:13.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""keeping us honest, I guess I would say.""" start="00:14:17.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So I love, I run it as much as I before,""" start="00:14:22.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you know, even before I commit something.""" start="00:14:26.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So I get to see, you know,""" start="00:14:29.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if anything has progressed.""" start="00:14:30.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So yeah, I really recommend this process to""" start="00:14:39.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""people. I haven't seen it done.""" start="00:14:42.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I don't think that, I don't know any other""" start="00:14:45.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""package that has done it to this level.""" start="00:14:47.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And it's been working really great for us.""" start="00:14:51.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And I think, well, we'll see too when we""" start="00:14:55.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""release to the general public.""" start="00:14:56.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: But Bob, also, maybe the test part of""" start="00:15:04.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""different packages is not the first thing you""" start="00:15:06.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""look at. So I know there are packages that""" start="00:15:08.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""have testing, a lot of testing,""" start="00:15:10.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but how much, much testing they have or not,""" start="00:15:13.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I don't know. It's not what you normally look""" start="00:15:16.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""into when you look at someone's else code.""" start="00:15:17.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""You look maybe on the functionality side but""" start="00:15:20.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""not on how they've done the sort of the""" start="00:15:22.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""quality side. So there could be other""" start="00:15:26.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""packages out there that are well equipped.""" start="00:15:28.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: I hope so. I hope so.""" start="00:15:31.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: What's the craziest bug you found when""" start="00:15:39.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""writing these tests? Well,""" start="00:15:44.700" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""What springs to my mind just now is that we""" start="00:15:50.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""were doing some tests or I would do some""" start="00:15:52.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""tests for when you narrow,""" start="00:15:55.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""what do you say that? When you,""" start="00:15:57.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""in outlining, when you sort of compress""" start="00:16:04.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""things in an outline, so you just,""" start="00:16:06.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""sorry Bob, maybe you have it,""" start="00:16:08.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: When you hide text.""" start="00:16:12.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: What I'm looking for? Yeah,""" start="00:16:12.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""when you hide. So I was doing some cursor""" start="00:16:15.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""movement over that. And I always assume that""" start="00:16:17.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""if you do like a prefix argument to like a""" start="00:16:22.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""simple cursor movement,""" start="00:16:23.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like control F moving 1 character position,""" start="00:16:26.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and you would give it the,""" start="00:16:28.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and then the prefix, like you want to move""" start="00:16:36.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like 2 or 3 positions,""" start="00:16:39.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you would do like control U 3 and then""" start="00:16:43.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""control F and you move 3.""" start="00:16:44.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I always assumed that that would be exactly""" start="00:16:46.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the same as if you just hit the key control F""" start="00:16:49.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""3 times, but it's not.""" start="00:16:50.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So it's not the bug, it's a feature,""" start="00:16:53.160" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but that was the craziest thing.""" start="00:16:54.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I spent the night trying to figure out why""" start="00:16:58.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""our code was wrong, but It turns out that's""" start="00:17:00.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""how Emacs behaves. Try it out yourself.""" start="00:17:03.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Try to move over the 3 dots at the end of""" start="00:17:07.920" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that and see what happens.""" start="00:17:09.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Do it with cursor hitting the key or using a""" start="00:17:14.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""prefix argument and you see it behaves""" start="00:17:16.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""differently. That was the craziest thing.""" start="00:17:18.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I think there was some other crazy thing or""" start="00:17:21.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""deep learning also, but I can't come up with""" start="00:17:24.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""it at the moment. So maybe I can write it in""" start="00:17:26.599" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the Q&A later.""" start="00:17:27.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: I think we're out of time on the stream,""" start="00:17:31.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but people are welcome to join Mats and Bob""" start="00:17:33.360" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""here on BigBlueButton to further discuss""" start="00:17:35.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this. Thank you both.""" start="00:17:36.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you. Thanks,""" start="00:17:38.674" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Makaay. Thank you. I don't know,""" start="00:17:46.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Is it only me and Bob here?""" start="00:17:48.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So Bob, do you want to say something?""" start="00:17:50.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 2]: Well, I think it's been a great day.""" start="00:17:57.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And I'm glad we did this.""" start="00:18:00.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It takes a lot of energy.""" start="00:18:02.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I'm just really excited about the progress""" start="00:18:15.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that this, and we're actually doing a lot of""" start="00:18:20.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""QA at work and my professional software work""" start="00:18:23.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and looking at you know how we can do more""" start="00:18:28.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test driven development and so everybody's""" start="00:18:32.980" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""talking about this you know we've got AI over""" start="00:18:35.980" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""here that can generate test cases.""" start="00:18:37.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But, you know, strangely enough,""" start="00:18:40.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""with the rapidity of development and web""" start="00:18:43.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""applications, I think the level of testing""" start="00:18:46.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""has gone down in recent years compared to""" start="00:18:50.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""where it used to be, right?""" start="00:18:51.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Because the pace has gone up.""" start="00:18:53.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And so I think it's starting to turn again""" start="00:18:57.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""where people are saying,""" start="00:18:58.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""we can't just release crap into the""" start="00:19:01.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Webisphere and we have to better ourselves.""" start="00:19:08.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And with all these advanced tool sets that""" start="00:19:13.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you have, that you can do CICD testing,""" start="00:19:16.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you know, I just, I just see it coming""" start="00:19:19.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""around, you know, as people develop new""" start="00:19:21.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""things. So That's kind of exciting to me""" start="00:19:24.000" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because I came from a manufacturing culture""" start="00:19:26.980" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""originally where we, our company actually""" start="00:19:30.300" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""started a lot of the manufacturing quality""" start="00:19:33.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""efforts that you saw in Japan and elsewhere""" start="00:19:37.420" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""in America for a long time and that was you""" start="00:19:40.600" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""know entirely through testing.""" start="00:19:42.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""We used to just build incredible test cases""" start="00:19:46.640" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because we were combining software with""" start="00:19:49.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""hardware. And if, you know,""" start="00:19:51.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the hardware doesn't work and you ship a""" start="00:19:53.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""million units, you're,""" start="00:19:55.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you're in trouble. So,""" start="00:19:57.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that was just something we had to do.""" start="00:20:00.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And so it's nice to start to see that curve""" start="00:20:04.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""come around. And I think,""" start="00:20:07.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you know, Matt Vance is very modest,""" start="00:20:10.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but I think he's really the 1 that started us""" start="00:20:16.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""down this path and really made it into a""" start="00:20:20.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""reality. So everybody else just gets to""" start="00:20:24.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""benefit from that work.""" start="00:20:25.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So thanks.""" start="00:20:27.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: That's awesome.""" start="00:20:32.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Thanks. Okay. Yeah. So if there's nothing""" start="00:20:39.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""more here, then maybe we should just close""" start="00:20:43.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this and I go over to write in the etherpad""" start="00:20:45.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the replies we had.""" start="00:20:47.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: Right, yeah, I think, let's see,""" start="00:20:51.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I see 1 other person here,""" start="00:20:53.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I believe Ihor just joined us.""" start="00:20:55.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Yeah. Yeah, so if you do want to discuss with""" start="00:20:58.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Mats and Bob, you're welcome to,""" start="00:21:00.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""otherwise, yeah, we can close the room now.""" start="00:21:02.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: Well, I think I missed most of the talk""" start="00:21:05.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""because I had power outage,""" start="00:21:06.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but the part I heard was about the mock""" start="00:21:12.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""library. And you mentioned that you don't""" start="00:21:16.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like CL-let, but instead you use mock.""" start="00:21:20.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I was more saying that you have to do a""" start="00:21:29.700" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""lot more work when you use the CL letdef.""" start="00:21:31.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It's for more ambitious and maybe more""" start="00:21:34.540" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""complicated cases where you want to really""" start="00:21:37.000" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""make a new implementation,""" start="00:21:38.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test implementation. If you use the mock,""" start="00:21:41.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you get a lot of things out of the box,""" start="00:21:44.380" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""verifying that you actually,""" start="00:21:47.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""like the mock was actually called for""" start="00:21:50.820" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""instance, whereas if you do with the CLLatf,""" start="00:21:53.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you would have to take correct track of that""" start="00:21:56.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""yourself. And so, so a lot of more work.""" start="00:22:02.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Oh yeah.""" start="00:22:03.760" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: I'm saying that most of the time CLLess is""" start="00:22:07.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""used for simple cases actually.""" start="00:22:09.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Because, just for example,""" start="00:22:12.320" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""the function always returns the same.""" start="00:22:15.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And it tends to be simple lambda that ignores""" start="00:22:17.980" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""all the input arguments.""" start="00:22:19.040" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So that's really trivial most of the time but""" start="00:22:23.000" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I actually thought the opposite that mock is""" start="00:22:25.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""supposed to be used for non-trivial cases.""" start="00:22:27.640" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Sorry, what was the question?""" start="00:22:32.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Mock was supposed to be used for non-trivial.""" start="00:22:35.280" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Yeah I mean I don't know how to explain this.""" start="00:22:47.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I mean, CLF can be used for non-trivial""" start="00:22:50.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""definitely. You can define then any behavior""" start="00:22:54.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you want. You can write your own function,""" start="00:22:56.180" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but you need to keep track of whether that""" start="00:22:58.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""function is called or not,""" start="00:22:59.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""for instance. So you have to make note of""" start="00:23:06.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that the function was called so you can fire""" start="00:23:08.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""sort of an error in case your function wasn't""" start="00:23:12.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""called because that would be 1 error case.""" start="00:23:16.960" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: So you mean the mock fires an error if the""" start="00:23:20.660" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mocked function was actually not called?""" start="00:23:22.580" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Yes, it does. Yes. So if your assumptions,""" start="00:23:30.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you sort of document with the mock also your""" start="00:23:33.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""assumptions how your code is going to be""" start="00:23:37.080" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""called. And if those are wrong,""" start="00:23:40.020" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""you will get an error.""" start="00:23:41.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So you would, so if the implementation would""" start="00:23:43.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""maybe change, for instance,""" start="00:23:44.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""and not call the thing you're mocking,""" start="00:23:46.640" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""then you will notice that.""" start="00:23:50.460" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But if you see a letdef,""" start="00:23:53.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""then you will have to keep track of that""" start="00:23:54.840" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""yourself. Okay, I see.""" start="00:23:57.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I see.""" start="00:23:58.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: And you know, our mode also uses a lot of""" start="00:24:01.240" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""test. In our mode, we have a lot of tests""" start="00:24:09.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Ah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure I have.""" start="00:24:13.940" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: also. We rely on CLLatF for,""" start="00:24:15.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""we don't use third-party libraries at all.""" start="00:24:19.220" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: Oh, you use CLLatF, okay.""" start="00:24:22.140" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At First I found it very""" start="00:24:26.680" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""powerful to use that, but then I sort of,""" start="00:24:29.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""I learned more about how we can use the""" start="00:24:32.120" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mocking library for what I needed.""" start="00:24:34.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""And I prefer that at the moment.""" start="00:24:36.900" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: I see, that is interesting.""" start="00:24:40.560" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Because I had seen it,""" start="00:24:42.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""but I didn't consider that it's gonna be""" start="00:24:45.440" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""useful even in simple cases.""" start="00:24:46.800" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: It has its limitations.""" start="00:24:52.640" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""So it's like life, how you turn depends.""" start="00:24:58.260" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But maybe I should look more into the org""" start="00:25:03.740" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""mode and the test case to learn more about""" start="00:25:05.880" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""that. So thanks for pointing that out.""" start="00:25:07.480" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 3]: We are trying to cover as much as we can.""" start="00:25:14.620" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""It's almost impossible for org.""" start="00:25:17.520" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""But yeah, we keep adding more tests.""" start="00:25:20.500" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: That's great.""" start="00:25:22.780" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Someone's typing. I don't know.""" start="00:25:52.720" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Any more questions? No?""" start="00:25:54.340" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Okay, then I'll go back and try to document""" start="00:26:01.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""this in the etherpad. Thank you everybody for""" start="00:26:05.200" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: Thank you guys. Great work.""" start="00:26:08.860" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 0]: joining. Great. Thank you.""" start="00:26:09.400" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""Take care. Bye-bye.""" start="00:26:11.100" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] +[[!template text="""[Speaker 1]: Take care. Bye. Silence.""" start="00:26:15.060" video="qanda-test" id="subtitle"]] + Questions or comments? Please e-mail [matsl@gnu.org](mailto:matsl@gnu.org?subject=Comment%20for%20EmacsConf%202023%20test%3A%20What%20I%20learned%20by%20writing%20test%20cases%20for%20GNU%20Hyperbole) |