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diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..552148f9 --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-web--emacs-saves-the-web-maybe--yuchen-pei--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,779 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:05.140 +[Speaker 0]: 2 seconds. And I think we are live. + +00:00:05.980 --> 00:00:06.480 +Hi Yuchen, how are you doing? + +00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:09.220 +[Speaker 1]: I'm gonna just walk off. + +00:00:10.840 --> 00:00:11.120 +I'm not sure if I... Yeah, + +00:00:13.440 --> 00:00:13.740 +I mean, brain not working well at this + +00:00:14.660 --> 00:00:15.160 +moment. How about you? + +00:00:18.420 --> 00:00:18.760 +[Speaker 2]: Well, mine is about to get fried because + +00:00:21.040 --> 00:00:21.260 +EmacsConf is a very taxing process and I can + +00:00:24.599 --> 00:00:25.080 +tell you we could have a race to know who's + +00:00:26.720 --> 00:00:26.920 +more more tired right now between you and + +00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:29.619 +myself but I guess we'll find out at the end + +00:00:32.080 --> 00:00:32.580 +[Speaker 1]: All right, sounds good. + +00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:34.700 +[Speaker 2]: of the Q&A. And thank you for... + +00:00:37.760 --> 00:00:37.900 +How late or how early I should say is it for + +00:00:39.480 --> 00:00:39.640 +you right now? It should be like 6am or + +00:00:43.860 --> 00:00:44.059 +[Speaker 1]: Thanks. It's 7.45 but I normally get up at + +00:00:45.020 --> 00:00:45.520 +like 8.30 or something. + +00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:46.860 +[Speaker 2]: something? Right, okay. + +00:00:48.380 --> 00:00:48.880 +Well, anyway, thank you for the sacrifice + +00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:50.700 +just to answer some of the questions. + +00:00:56.160 --> 00:00:56.320 +All right, so I'll be displaying the + +00:00:59.180 --> 00:00:59.680 +questions. I'll be, let me just maximize this + +00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:01.720 +on the stream so that people can read + +00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:02.640 +everything on my screen. + +00:01:03.400 --> 00:01:03.480 +So what I'm going to do, + +00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:05.740 +Yuchen, as usual, I'm going to start reading + +00:01:06.540 --> 00:01:06.720 +the questions on the pad. + +00:01:12.160 --> 00:01:12.660 +I'm going to ask Sasha to open the Q&A. + +00:01:13.620 --> 00:01:13.940 +Yes, it's already open. + +00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:15.479 +Cool. So if you want to join us, + +00:01:19.360 --> 00:01:19.540 +people, Feel free to click on the link on the + +00:01:21.820 --> 00:01:21.940 +talk or on IRC to join us on BBB and to ask + +00:01:23.440 --> 00:01:23.560 +your questions. Otherwise just leave them on + +00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:24.720 +the pad. Alright, Yuchen, + +00:01:25.440 --> 00:01:25.940 +starting with the first question. + +00:01:28.260 --> 00:01:28.620 +I like the idea of using org-mode to display + +00:01:30.300 --> 00:01:30.640 +data from the web. Are there many different + +00:01:33.220 --> 00:01:33.580 +packages that do not, I assume. + +00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:35.720 +I'm new to Emacs, so maybe this is obvious to + +00:01:36.040 --> 00:01:36.540 +everyone else. + +00:01:43.860 --> 00:01:44.360 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think so. I mean... + +00:01:49.240 --> 00:01:49.440 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I think it's a little complicated to + +00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:51.660 +specify what is it to display data from the + +00:01:53.360 --> 00:01:53.560 +web. Just reading it like this, + +00:01:55.900 --> 00:01:56.200 +I'm reminded of Adam, Arthur Pappa, + +00:01:58.260 --> 00:01:58.520 +I mean, Code All Capture Web, + +00:02:00.860 --> 00:02:01.060 +which technically captures the web and allows + +00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:02.500 +you to embed it in the page, + +00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:04.400 +but is it really displaying data from the + +00:02:06.340 --> 00:02:06.840 +web? Are we implying live transmission? + +00:02:07.720 --> 00:02:08.220 +Do you see what I'm talking about? + +00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:11.180 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I suspect the question is asking, + +00:02:17.040 --> 00:02:17.540 +like, having Emacs as a client that's sort of + +00:02:19.740 --> 00:02:20.240 +getting data from the web and then displays + +00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:25.620 +in Emacs, like using API or using web script. + +00:02:35.220 --> 00:02:35.440 +So yeah, like the hreader package or a few + +00:02:37.580 --> 00:02:38.080 +packages mentioned in my talk. + +00:02:39.920 --> 00:02:40.180 +Yeah, that's a good question. + +00:02:46.220 --> 00:02:46.720 +I mean, I really don't know how many. + +00:02:48.060 --> 00:02:48.560 +So from my experience, + +00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:56.460 +maybe I use like 10, less than 10 packages + +00:03:01.220 --> 00:03:01.460 +that do these things. And among these + +00:03:03.840 --> 00:03:04.120 +packages, maybe it's half of them are org, + +00:03:09.480 --> 00:03:09.980 +[Speaker 2]: So you mean half of them are org-based? + +00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:11.340 +Is that what you said? + +00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:12.340 +[Speaker 1]: half of them don't. Yeah, + +00:03:16.920 --> 00:03:17.420 +but that's just based on the packages I use. + +00:03:22.440 --> 00:03:22.940 +I haven't done a survey about this. + +00:03:25.520 --> 00:03:25.680 +[Speaker 2]: I think it's okay, you don't need to have all + +00:03:26.880 --> 00:03:27.340 +the answers. I mean, you already demonstrate + +00:03:29.380 --> 00:03:29.480 +a lot of competence and you talk about all + +00:03:31.100 --> 00:03:31.520 +the things you approach with your particular + +00:03:33.040 --> 00:03:33.240 +setup, So you don't need to have all the + +00:03:36.040 --> 00:03:36.280 +answers. Okay. All right, + +00:03:37.160 --> 00:03:37.660 +moving on to the next question. + +00:03:39.340 --> 00:03:39.720 +Have you tried EAF, i.e. + +00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:41.840 +The Emacs application framework and its + +00:03:43.940 --> 00:03:44.120 +browser? If yes, what is your opinion about + +00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:44.620 +it? + +00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:48.020 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, I haven't tried it. + +00:03:53.760 --> 00:03:54.260 +I try to remember why I haven't tried it. + +00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:04.020 +It has a browser. I assume the browser + +00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:07.340 +executes JavaScript by default. + +00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:12.820 +I have to check. Emacs.daf + +00:04:15.820 --> 00:04:16.320 +slash daf browser. + +00:04:25.520 --> 00:04:25.840 +[Speaker 2]: It's also OK if you want to have a look later + +00:04:27.380 --> 00:04:27.560 +and you know whenever you want to report to + +00:04:28.940 --> 00:04:29.220 +the pad you know you write a little blurb + +00:04:34.700 --> 00:04:34.860 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah sure yeah so yeah I know about EAF but I + +00:04:35.460 --> 00:04:35.960 +haven't tried it. + +00:04:38.060 --> 00:04:38.340 +[Speaker 2]: about it. Okay well that's already an answer + +00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:41.580 +that's cool. We're gonna move on to a + +00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.040 +question that is a little bit off topic, + +00:04:44.700 --> 00:04:44.860 +but I've also been interested about your + +00:04:47.420 --> 00:04:47.800 +nickname on IRC. This is not really relevant + +00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:49.340 +to the talk, quoting the question, + +00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:50.900 +but I'm curious about your nickname. + +00:04:52.020 --> 00:04:52.520 +You have some connection to Norway. + +00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:54.640 +Your nick indicates an interest in the + +00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:56.200 +architectural style inspired by the + +00:04:58.280 --> 00:04:58.700 +decoration on Viking ships that was popular + +00:05:00.460 --> 00:05:00.700 +in the early 20th century because + +00:05:01.880 --> 00:05:02.380 +Dragonsteel, I assume in Norwegian, + +00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:05.360 +is Dragon style. Are you familiar with this? + +00:05:10.760 --> 00:05:11.260 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it's just my favorite architecture + +00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:16.060 +style, I think. I mean, + +00:05:19.040 --> 00:05:19.540 +I lived in Sweden for like 2, + +00:05:25.900 --> 00:05:26.320 +1 half years and yeah I went to Norway once + +00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:33.020 +and I saw like this church in Lofoten Island, + +00:05:36.766 --> 00:05:36.780 +[Speaker 0]: was amazing. In Luton Island, + +00:05:36.820 --> 00:05:36.833 +on Luton Island. Right. + +00:05:36.833 --> 00:05:36.846 +[Speaker 1]: on Lofoten Island. Yeah it Yeah, + +00:05:40.280 --> 00:05:40.560 +it was amazing. So, yeah, + +00:05:43.780 --> 00:05:44.060 +that's exactly why I chose that as my + +00:05:46.520 --> 00:05:46.940 +nickname, because it's my favorite + +00:05:47.540 --> 00:05:48.040 +architecture style. + +00:05:51.940 --> 00:05:52.080 +[Speaker 2]: Okay, well, that was a very astute remark by + +00:05:54.760 --> 00:05:54.960 +the viewers, so I hope you feel validated in + +00:05:58.480 --> 00:05:58.660 +[Speaker 0]: assumptions. Moving on + +00:05:58.980 --> 00:05:59.480 +[Speaker 2]: your to another question. + +00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:02.360 +Yuchen, do you have any thoughts about Nixed, + +00:06:03.880 --> 00:06:04.380 +about its name, its approach, + +00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:09.060 +its relevance? About Nixed, + +00:06:11.500 --> 00:06:11.720 +the browser, N-Y-X-T. Oh, + +00:06:11.720 --> 00:06:12.220 +Nixed. + +00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:17.720 +[Speaker 1]: About what? Yeah, I have tried it. + +00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:21.860 +Well, I mean, it's not Emacs. + +00:06:26.140 --> 00:06:26.380 +It's kind of similar. I think it tries to do + +00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:27.900 +something similar to Emacs, + +00:06:33.860 --> 00:06:34.240 +but The problem with Nix is that very early + +00:06:37.180 --> 00:06:37.680 +on I encountered an issue with keybinding. + +00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:43.240 +So the first thing I want to do is to make + +00:06:44.300 --> 00:06:44.800 +all its keybindings emax-y. + +00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:47.420 +So that's obviously... + +00:06:51.200 --> 00:06:51.580 +So what was the problem? + +00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:53.500 +So yeah, I couldn't even do that. + +00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:56.620 +I thought, I was expecting that it could... + +00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:02.860 +There shouldn't be any issues with setting up + +00:07:03.960 --> 00:07:04.440 +whatever key binding you want. + +00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:09.180 +So I, the, the issue was that when I tried to + +00:07:15.400 --> 00:07:15.660 +do when I tried to bind Ctrl S Ctrl R to the + +00:07:17.380 --> 00:07:17.600 +prompt going up and down, + +00:07:22.900 --> 00:07:23.140 +so I use I was I complete and I'm used to + +00:07:26.760 --> 00:07:27.260 +like the control S and control R to go, + +00:07:28.980 --> 00:07:29.480 +to cycle through the selections. + +00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:35.760 +And so I want it the same in next in its + +00:07:38.460 --> 00:07:38.960 +prompt like when, for example, + +00:07:43.620 --> 00:07:44.120 +typing a URL and get completion from history. + +00:07:48.900 --> 00:07:49.400 +But it has a conflict with the... + +00:07:55.680 --> 00:07:56.180 +And also, I try to bind the hint. + +00:08:00.440 --> 00:08:00.940 +So when I want to follow a link, + +00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:06.300 +So I press a hint key and then like all these + +00:08:10.120 --> 00:08:10.320 +links are highlighted with like little + +00:08:13.660 --> 00:08:13.860 +letters that I can like choose which 1 I want + +00:08:14.820 --> 00:08:15.320 +which link I want to follow. + +00:08:20.140 --> 00:08:20.640 +So I try to bind that 1 to J sort of like + +00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:24.060 +Control C, Control J, or mode. + +00:08:28.780 --> 00:08:29.180 +But apparently there's a conflict here. + +00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:33.820 +So when I do both these prompt mode binding + +00:08:36.260 --> 00:08:36.760 +and the document mode binding, + +00:08:39.960 --> 00:08:40.460 +Yeah, the prompt no longer works. + +00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:44.340 +And I reported the bug to Nixt. + +00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:50.600 +And yeah, and there was response but there + +00:08:52.580 --> 00:08:53.000 +are so many bugs there, + +00:08:55.640 --> 00:08:55.940 +and I don't think that bug is very high + +00:09:00.540 --> 00:09:00.860 +priority. So yeah, I basically stopped trying + +00:09:03.500 --> 00:09:03.660 +that because key mining is very important to + +00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:08.100 +[Speaker 2]: Right, but, sorry, please finish. + +00:09:15.620 --> 00:09:15.740 +[Speaker 1]: me. Yeah, so I mean, yeah, + +00:09:17.320 --> 00:09:17.820 +without key bindings I can't like, + +00:09:23.940 --> 00:09:24.440 +I won't. So, okay, I feel this is a very + +00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:29.440 +basic functionality. I'm kind of reluctant to + +00:09:31.220 --> 00:09:31.560 +[Speaker 2]: Without key bindings, they are. + +00:09:32.020 --> 00:09:32.520 +[Speaker 1]: continue trying what These are pieces. + +00:09:34.200 --> 00:09:34.540 +[Speaker 2]: It reminds me of 2 points. + +00:09:35.840 --> 00:09:36.100 +So yesterday with Stefan we were talking + +00:09:37.540 --> 00:09:37.860 +about sane defaults and when he was sleeping + +00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:39.600 +today we talked about it again with a + +00:09:41.400 --> 00:09:41.900 +speaker. We did the mentor talk. + +00:09:43.020 --> 00:09:43.520 +Feel free to re-watch it afterwards. + +00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:48.440 +But it's funny how, you know, + +00:09:50.920 --> 00:09:51.360 +regardless of how big the package actually + +00:09:54.520 --> 00:09:54.820 +is, they always provide some kind of sane + +00:09:55.640 --> 00:09:55.960 +default and with Nixed, + +00:09:58.620 --> 00:09:59.120 +obviously, it's built with a Vim mentality + +00:10:02.020 --> 00:10:02.520 +and modality of key bindings. + +00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:06.060 +And for us, we are more used to the Emacs way + +00:10:08.040 --> 00:10:08.540 +of doing things. It's a complete blocker. + +00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:10.560 +No matter how great the pieces of + +00:10:12.280 --> 00:10:12.780 +functionality behind Nixed are, + +00:10:15.060 --> 00:10:15.300 +just the fact that UX-wise we cannot get into + +00:10:18.220 --> 00:10:18.340 +it or we cannot have it behave nicely with + +00:10:20.280 --> 00:10:20.440 +what we do. It's a massive block that is + +00:10:22.040 --> 00:10:22.540 +preventing appropriation of such tools. + +00:10:25.940 --> 00:10:26.040 +So it might seem very basic to bounce a + +00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:28.800 +package at the level of key bindings but + +00:10:29.620 --> 00:10:30.120 +that's what we all do. + +00:10:32.800 --> 00:10:33.300 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I totally agree. + +00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:36.600 +[Speaker 2]: Right, if I can just interrupt, + +00:10:38.520 --> 00:10:38.680 +we have about 2 more minutes of questions and + +00:10:40.940 --> 00:10:41.320 +I see people are writing more questions. + +00:10:42.180 --> 00:10:42.440 +Did you want to add something, + +00:10:43.780 --> 00:10:44.280 +Yucheng? On what we're saying? + +00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:48.120 +[Speaker 1]: No, no, no, Let's continue. + +00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:51.660 +[Speaker 2]: had plenty of time. Okay, + +00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:53.260 +I'm going to ask you to be quick about this + +00:10:53.860 --> 00:10:54.060 +1. I'm going to read the question, + +00:10:54.620 --> 00:10:54.840 +which is slightly long, + +00:10:56.320 --> 00:10:56.400 +and you're going to have about 30 seconds to + +00:10:57.720 --> 00:10:58.220 +answer it. Do you feel capable of this? + +00:10:59.860 --> 00:11:00.360 +[Speaker 1]: I thought we Yeah, let's try it. + +00:11:02.860 --> 00:11:03.360 +[Speaker 2]: Let's try it. At least try it. + +00:11:05.208 --> 00:11:05.352 +Okay, so quoting, I find the JavaScript trap + +00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:06.820 +almost impossible to avoid since I like to + +00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:10.860 +buy used stuff online and use my online bank. + +00:11:13.140 --> 00:11:13.460 +How do you deal with a JavaScript trap? + +00:11:15.400 --> 00:11:15.640 +I use NoScript and compromise on a few things + +00:11:16.760 --> 00:11:17.260 +I really feel I cannot live without. + +00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:19.440 +EWW is nice for a lot of things, + +00:11:21.260 --> 00:11:21.660 +especially with R for less noise, + +00:11:23.760 --> 00:11:24.220 +but I need Firefox for those GS and trapped + +00:11:25.760 --> 00:11:26.260 +pages. So do you have a quick answer to this? + +00:11:29.500 --> 00:11:29.800 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I don't have a good answer, + +00:11:30.640 --> 00:11:31.140 +but I have a quick answer. + +00:11:38.140 --> 00:11:38.640 +So I use VPN and like a more, + +00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:42.180 +what do you call it, move out the Swedish VPN + +00:11:43.480 --> 00:11:43.980 +browser, move out browser. + +00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:49.160 +Yeah, so I unfortunately I have to use + +00:11:50.660 --> 00:11:50.980 +JavaScript in these cases as well, + +00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:54.020 +but I try to minimize the use of these + +00:11:54.020 --> 00:11:54.520 +things. + +00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:57.040 +[Speaker 2]: How long do you think it will take for us to + +00:11:58.140 --> 00:11:58.480 +save the world with Emacs, + +00:11:59.340 --> 00:11:59.760 +or save the web at least? + +00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:01.560 +5 years, 10 years, maybe a little less than + +00:12:01.560 --> 00:12:02.060 +this? + +00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:07.000 +[Speaker 1]: Well I think it's, unfortunately it's + +00:12:08.300 --> 00:12:08.800 +probably independent of Emacs, + +00:12:12.180 --> 00:12:12.680 +like it will only be saved when, + +00:12:14.860 --> 00:12:14.970 +like it's saved on like the normal, + +00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:19.460 +the more popular browsers like Firefox. + +00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:24.060 +I have no clue how long it will take for, + +00:12:25.120 --> 00:12:25.620 +I don't know, for example, + +00:12:28.660 --> 00:12:29.140 +Tala to pick up so that you can buy things + +00:12:30.020 --> 00:12:30.520 +without running JavaScript. + +00:12:33.220 --> 00:12:33.340 +[Speaker 2]: Right. Well, I guess we'll have to cross our + +00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:35.740 +fingers then for Firefox to save the world. + +00:12:37.260 --> 00:12:37.500 +All right Yuchen, we're about out of time, + +00:12:38.800 --> 00:12:39.080 +we're moving on to the next talk in 20 + +00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:40.360 +seconds. Thank you so much for your + +00:12:41.940 --> 00:12:42.100 +presentation and for waking up early and + +00:12:42.540 --> 00:12:42.780 +answering the question, + +00:12:44.820 --> 00:12:45.060 +and I can tell you, you were very alert and + +00:12:47.020 --> 00:12:47.520 +definitely more energetic than I was. + +00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:53.100 +All right, see you later. + +00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:54.440 +[Speaker 1]: Thank you. See you. + +00:12:58.400 --> 00:12:58.900 +[Speaker 2]: Bye. And we go to the next talk right now. + +00:13:02.620 --> 00:13:03.120 +[Speaker 0]: You are currently + +00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:15.760 +you |