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diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..9852485c --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,2654 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:00.599 --> 00:00:04.140 +[Speaker 0]: Again, second only live Q&A of the day. + +00:00:04.339 --> 00:00:06.339 +So, things are still a bit rusty, + +00:00:06.339 --> 00:00:08.379 +but believe me, by the end of the morning, + +00:00:08.380 --> 00:00:12.259 +we will be well-oiled machinery. + +00:00:12.340 --> 00:00:13.940 +So, hi Marcus, how are you doing? + +00:00:14.540 --> 00:00:15.860 +[Speaker 1]: I'm fine, Thank you. + +00:00:17.500 --> 00:00:20.020 +[Speaker 0]: I really liked, most people might have + +00:00:20.020 --> 00:00:22.180 +forgotten, but you started your presentation + +00:00:22.360 --> 00:00:26.340 +with the, in a very dark room and with this + +00:00:26.680 --> 00:00:29.340 +typical note of dry German humor that I + +00:00:29.340 --> 00:00:30.900 +particularly liked. + +00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.280 +[Speaker 1]: Whereas I told you we're born without humour + +00:00:34.280 --> 00:00:38.300 +so any sense of humour is the result of very + +00:00:38.300 --> 00:00:39.059 +hard work. + +00:00:40.940 --> 00:00:44.280 +[Speaker 0]: Well I can confirm therefore that your work + +00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:46.600 +is evident in this particular remark. + +00:00:47.780 --> 00:00:50.879 +So as we did before and perhaps this time + +00:00:50.940 --> 00:00:54.320 +more punctiliously, terrible adverb, + +00:00:54.320 --> 00:00:58.100 +that's why I'm an English major we will be + +00:00:58.100 --> 00:01:00.420 +taking questions first from the pad and then + +00:01:00.420 --> 00:01:03.740 +we'll be moving on to people in the BBV room. + +00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:05.540 +Let me just check if we have some people. + +00:01:05.540 --> 00:01:06.720 +We do have some people. + +00:01:06.960 --> 00:01:08.860 +All right, so Markus, I'm gonna ask you the + +00:01:08.860 --> 00:01:11.200 +questions in the pad unless you have + +00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:12.600 +something to remark first. + +00:01:13.080 --> 00:01:15.060 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, oh no, no, I don't have nothing to + +00:01:15.060 --> 00:01:17.800 +remark. I mean, only that we're coming to the + +00:01:17.800 --> 00:01:20.200 +end of the term here, and I think in the + +00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:24.140 +paper that I wrote, I expressed doubt that + +00:01:24.140 --> 00:01:25.560 +Emacs was good for beginners, + +00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:31.720 +but I've now gone back to an interactive + +00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:34.020 +notebook in the class without Emacs, + +00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:37.500 +and I've just missed it terribly the whole + +00:01:37.500 --> 00:01:39.220 +term. And I think I saw you walk too, + +00:01:39.220 --> 00:01:40.540 +so that's kind of interesting. + +00:01:41.380 --> 00:01:42.160 +That's it. + +00:01:42.270 --> 00:01:43.580 +[Speaker 0]: Right. All right, well, + +00:01:43.580 --> 00:01:45.040 +let's get started with the questions because + +00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:47.940 +I'm a little worried that we might acquire + +00:01:48.340 --> 00:01:50.580 +debt because of the time that we have. + +00:01:50.580 --> 00:01:53.040 +And just to be clear, so that you also know + +00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:54.479 +the time at which we're supposed to be + +00:01:54.479 --> 00:01:57.240 +finishing, the next talk here on this track + +00:01:57.240 --> 00:01:59.560 +is supposed to be at 10.40, + +00:01:59.700 --> 00:02:01.740 +which is in 13 minutes from now. + +00:02:01.800 --> 00:02:03.220 +All right, with that said, + +00:02:03.240 --> 00:02:04.500 +starting with the first questions. + +00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:07.300 +What tools do you use for making your slides? + +00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:09.440 +They are very nice and I concur. + +00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:18.180 +OrgReveal? + +00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:22.600 +[Speaker 1]: I use OrgReveal. It's a package, + +00:02:22.980 --> 00:02:26.380 +OrgReveal. I don't have the link right now, + +00:02:26.380 --> 00:02:31.560 +but it's an org mode package where You create + +00:02:31.560 --> 00:02:35.400 +some meta information and I think it's + +00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:39.900 +basically JavaScript, JavaScript package that + +00:02:39.900 --> 00:02:41.620 +will work from a bunch of different + +00:02:45.580 --> 00:02:49.540 +platforms, but it works particularly well + +00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:52.120 +from Emacs. So you use that a lot. + +00:02:53.740 --> 00:02:55.440 +[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah, I think it is definitely + +00:02:55.440 --> 00:02:57.120 +interacting with JavaScript in the background + +00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.120 +and it makes for a very clean presentation + +00:02:59.440 --> 00:03:01.380 +right from Emacs. I mean, + +00:03:01.380 --> 00:03:04.340 +it's not opened in Emacs unless you use a web + +00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:06.480 +browser in Emacs that supports such + +00:03:06.480 --> 00:03:09.400 +compositing but it's pretty convenient and I + +00:03:09.400 --> 00:03:10.780 +recommend looking into it. + +00:03:15.140 --> 00:03:19.540 +[Speaker 1]: I'm just going to share the URL here. + +00:03:20.080 --> 00:03:21.400 +So if anybody's interested. + +00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:24.140 +[Speaker 0]: Right, and we'll be putting all the links + +00:03:24.140 --> 00:03:25.600 +right now. So obviously right now, + +00:03:25.600 --> 00:03:28.180 +Marcus is writing inside of his own Emacs, + +00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:29.340 +but we also have the pad. + +00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:31.020 +We'll make sure that you have all the links + +00:03:31.020 --> 00:03:32.520 +accessible a little bit later. + +00:03:32.660 --> 00:03:34.340 +Okay, moving on to the next question, + +00:03:34.460 --> 00:03:35.360 +why MDPI? + +00:03:36.820 --> 00:03:40.520 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, well that's a little bit of a longer + +00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:42.600 +answer, kind of boring I suppose. + +00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:44.680 +So when I came here to the US, + +00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:47.960 +I used to teach a lot of graduate courses and + +00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:49.280 +I had to suddenly teach a lot of + +00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:50.460 +undergraduate courses, + +00:03:50.500 --> 00:03:53.100 +which partly motivated this move because it + +00:03:53.100 --> 00:03:55.640 +made me realize, as I said in the + +00:03:55.640 --> 00:03:58.020 +presentation, how little the students + +00:03:58.020 --> 00:03:59.780 +understand of the underlying infrastructure + +00:04:00.040 --> 00:04:01.920 +and how important it is for them to work with + +00:04:01.920 --> 00:04:06.440 +an IDE that doesn't make coding especially + +00:04:06.540 --> 00:04:09.140 +convenient, but that teaches them a lot of + +00:04:09.140 --> 00:04:10.840 +the stuff on the side, + +00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:13.080 +you know, while still presenting a very + +00:04:13.440 --> 00:04:17.380 +smooth environment, which developers + +00:04:17.480 --> 00:04:22.120 +appreciate as well. So I came here and I used + +00:04:22.120 --> 00:04:24.520 +to publish like 4 or 5 research papers per + +00:04:24.520 --> 00:04:26.140 +year, but I didn't have the time. + +00:04:26.520 --> 00:04:28.760 +So I was contacted by MDPI. + +00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:34.340 +And it's 1 of those research paper mills, + +00:04:34.700 --> 00:04:37.160 +which seem to be springing up where authors + +00:04:37.200 --> 00:04:40.840 +can, really the institutions of the authors + +00:04:40.840 --> 00:04:42.560 +have to pay so that they can publish, + +00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:44.440 +right? So it's not really, + +00:04:44.440 --> 00:04:46.400 +and I checked them out and they seem to be + +00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:47.680 +proper peer review publishing, + +00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:49.120 +but to be absolutely sure I said, + +00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:50.460 +well, you can have my article, + +00:04:51.220 --> 00:04:52.540 +but of course for free, + +00:04:52.540 --> 00:04:55.080 +I'm not going to pay for you to publish it. + +00:04:55.080 --> 00:04:57.700 +And so that's what they did. + +00:04:57.880 --> 00:05:01.160 +They invited me and I submitted the paper and + +00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:02.240 +it was a very good process. + +00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:04.540 +That was a very, it was a good peer review + +00:05:04.540 --> 00:05:06.760 +critique. So I changed the paper quite a bit. + +00:05:06.760 --> 00:05:07.940 +It's still not a great paper. + +00:05:07.940 --> 00:05:09.320 +It's just a small case study. + +00:05:09.320 --> 00:05:12.100 +That's the kind of thing that you have a lot + +00:05:12.100 --> 00:05:14.800 +in medical research where also people don't + +00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:17.720 +have a lot of time to do research, + +00:05:17.720 --> 00:05:19.480 +proper research, which takes a very long + +00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:21.520 +time. And so that's why MDPI. + +00:05:21.820 --> 00:05:24.660 +And they are in the most of the relevant + +00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.780 +citation indices. So they are reputable + +00:05:27.900 --> 00:05:30.920 +enough. I mean, normally I would say for + +00:05:30.920 --> 00:05:33.060 +anybody who does anything like this, + +00:05:33.260 --> 00:05:36.420 +you might not even want to bother with the + +00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:37.640 +journal these days anymore. + +00:05:37.640 --> 00:05:39.260 +You just go straight to ArcSci, + +00:05:40.520 --> 00:05:41.620 +put out your preprint. + +00:05:41.980 --> 00:05:44.540 +And in fact, what will happen if you're on + +00:05:44.540 --> 00:05:46.440 +ArcSci, if somebody finds it interesting, + +00:05:46.440 --> 00:05:49.900 +they're going to reach out to you to capture + +00:05:49.900 --> 00:05:54.280 +your paper and have it published under their + +00:05:54.280 --> 00:05:56.120 +heading. Oh yeah, actually the other reason + +00:05:56.120 --> 00:05:58.660 +why I wanted MDPI is because there were open + +00:05:58.660 --> 00:05:59.980 +access from the start. + +00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:02.660 +And I really like, if you go to the paper, + +00:06:02.660 --> 00:06:04.200 +I really like the way it's presented. + +00:06:04.200 --> 00:06:07.340 +So I looked at a few papers and I thought + +00:06:07.340 --> 00:06:12.140 +it's a really nice online access, + +00:06:12.160 --> 00:06:13.980 +online open access solution. + +00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:17.220 +That's the long answer, + +00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:17.720 +sorry. + +00:06:18.740 --> 00:06:21.060 +[Speaker 0]: No, that was perfectly fine and you provided + +00:06:21.060 --> 00:06:23.760 +many details so it was far from a boring + +00:06:23.760 --> 00:06:25.420 +answer, let me reassure you. + +00:06:26.140 --> 00:06:27.100 +Moving on to the question, + +00:06:27.100 --> 00:06:29.120 +we only have about 8 minutes left so I'd like + +00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:31.500 +to finish those 2 questions and let people in + +00:06:31.500 --> 00:06:34.460 +the audience speak. So do you think immersion + +00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:37.500 +can be achieved on teaching other students + +00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:38.600 +with different backgrounds? + +00:06:39.340 --> 00:06:42.180 +[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, that's a really good question. + +00:06:45.740 --> 00:06:48.380 +I had actually a discussion last night with + +00:06:48.380 --> 00:06:49.920 +my wife in bed about this, + +00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.860 +about the use of textbooks which are famously + +00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:55.840 +non-immersive because they're consumed away + +00:06:55.840 --> 00:06:58.640 +from the class. Very rarely you sit in class + +00:06:58.660 --> 00:07:00.540 +like people used to do and read something + +00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:02.420 +together. Maybe they did that in English. + +00:07:02.420 --> 00:07:04.700 +And that is of course instantly immersive. + +00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:06.700 +But in computer science, + +00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:08.180 +many other topics, psychology, + +00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:10.300 +you know, biology and so on, + +00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:12.260 +you cannot get immersion, + +00:07:12.260 --> 00:07:14.240 +at least not in a lecture theater. + +00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:16.960 +You get it in a lab because people solve the + +00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:18.920 +problem and then they're immersed in it. + +00:07:18.920 --> 00:07:20.660 +So, but my answer would be, + +00:07:20.660 --> 00:07:22.680 +yes, I can think totally immersion can be + +00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.520 +achieved anywhere, but what you have to do is + +00:07:25.520 --> 00:07:29.500 +you have to not lecture and you have to let + +00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:31.640 +students do work as you go along. + +00:07:31.640 --> 00:07:33.840 +So I used to lecture quite a bit because I + +00:07:33.840 --> 00:07:38.220 +was an insecure young professor and just read + +00:07:38.220 --> 00:07:41.400 +all my slides and my notes as I used to use, + +00:07:41.400 --> 00:07:43.540 +as everybody uses to when they start. + +00:07:44.200 --> 00:07:46.100 +But as I went along, I realized, + +00:07:46.100 --> 00:07:48.240 +you know, I've got such a grasp of the topic + +00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:51.080 +that I really everything I do now is prepared + +00:07:51.080 --> 00:07:53.720 +in Emacs in an interactive way so I start + +00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:55.480 +saying a few words and then the students + +00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:58.000 +immediately we get to work and they seem to + +00:07:58.000 --> 00:07:59.840 +love that because in most of the other + +00:07:59.840 --> 00:08:01.680 +classes people just talk at them they take + +00:08:01.680 --> 00:08:03.500 +their stuff home and work at home, + +00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:05.140 +which is of course is super. + +00:08:05.380 --> 00:08:06.680 +But most of the students, + +00:08:06.680 --> 00:08:08.600 +if they have, in at least in a liberal arts + +00:08:08.600 --> 00:08:10.220 +college, they have 5 other classes, + +00:08:10.440 --> 00:08:13.520 +they do not take a lot of time to do the work + +00:08:13.520 --> 00:08:16.880 +at home. So it's, you know, + +00:08:16.880 --> 00:08:18.840 +yeah, It's kind of different. + +00:08:18.840 --> 00:08:20.020 +It's kind of risky, yeah, + +00:08:20.020 --> 00:08:22.360 +but the main point I was trying to make is + +00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.740 +Emacs and Org Mode really helped me to boil + +00:08:26.740 --> 00:08:29.220 +that interactive session down to something + +00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:30.800 +that will work in the classroom. + +00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:32.559 +I don't have to jump around between + +00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:33.740 +platforms. For example, + +00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:35.799 +this term, and I didn't use Emacs in the + +00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:36.919 +class with the students, + +00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:40.240 +I had to render using a package. + +00:08:40.760 --> 00:08:42.299 +It's actually a very nice package called, + +00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:46.100 +what's it called? Ox, what's it called? + +00:08:46.100 --> 00:08:50.520 +Ox, Ox IPNB. It's called Ox IPNB. + +00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:53.360 +So what it does is it renders in the usual + +00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.580 +way with Emacs, Org Mode does, + +00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:58.700 +renders interactive notebook files in + +00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:01.060 +Jupyter. And that took me a lot of time. + +00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.840 +And I immediately noticed as soon as the + +00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:06.180 +teacher has to fight platforms themselves, + +00:09:06.660 --> 00:09:09.920 +they take the ball off the immersion task, + +00:09:09.920 --> 00:09:12.340 +you know, to keep the student on the problem. + +00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:18.560 +[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, go on, please. + +00:09:19.400 --> 00:09:22.840 +Yeah. I was going to remark that. + +00:09:12.980 --> 00:09:23.260 +[Speaker 1]: So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, + +00:09:23.260 --> 00:09:25.120 +I suppose it might be MIT style. + +00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.140 +Big difference though, + +00:09:26.140 --> 00:09:27.900 +my classes are very, very short, + +00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:30.060 +small. So I have like between 10 and 15 + +00:09:30.060 --> 00:09:32.180 +students per class. 1 of the reasons why I + +00:09:32.180 --> 00:09:35.080 +went to this college is because I was fed up + +00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:36.940 +teaching, trying to teach hundreds of + +00:09:36.940 --> 00:09:40.580 +students. Okay, sorry, + +00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:42.520 +do some of your students nag you about using + +00:09:42.520 --> 00:09:43.460 +VS Code? Yes, they do, + +00:09:43.460 --> 00:09:45.300 +but their arguments aren't very good. + +00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:48.740 +They hadn't really compared Emacs and VS + +00:09:48.740 --> 00:09:51.800 +Code. And what I do, actually I use RStudio + +00:09:51.980 --> 00:09:53.860 +as well, demonstrate VS Code, + +00:09:53.860 --> 00:10:01.060 +RStudio and Emacs. And I think it's very easy + +00:10:01.060 --> 00:10:02.840 +for them to see. And there are some videos + +00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:05.020 +about that as well, how much easier it is to + +00:10:05.020 --> 00:10:08.520 +get into Emacs to limit your investments to + +00:10:08.520 --> 00:10:09.820 +what you actually wanna do. + +00:10:09.820 --> 00:10:11.840 +When the problem with VS Code is it comes at + +00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:14.280 +you with this sort of Microsoft store + +00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:17.280 +ideology, like a gazillion plugins, + +00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:18.840 +which if you're a developer, + +00:10:18.900 --> 00:10:20.140 +you know what you want. + +00:10:21.040 --> 00:10:24.120 +And I mean, it's a bit like VS Code is like + +00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.940 +Google search for as if you were programming + +00:10:27.980 --> 00:10:30.820 +in Google search, a complete waste of time. + +00:10:31.220 --> 00:10:33.280 +Having said that, I've also seen some videos + +00:10:33.280 --> 00:10:36.180 +with people who really know how to use VS + +00:10:36.180 --> 00:10:37.420 +Code. And of course, you know, + +00:10:37.420 --> 00:10:41.180 +if somebody gets on the inside of a tool and + +00:10:41.180 --> 00:10:44.480 +spends upwards of a thousand hours in the + +00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:45.840 +tool, they'll be great. + +00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:47.580 +But that's not true for beginners. + +00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:50.780 +So hold on, there's another 1. + +00:10:51.020 --> 00:10:52.320 +I'm reading them, sorry. + +00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:55.420 +Leo, I can see the questions, + +00:10:55.680 --> 00:10:58.000 +but you may wanna turn them around. + +00:10:59.700 --> 00:11:00.720 +[Speaker 0]: No, No, no, please, please, + +00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:01.560 +you're free to read them. + +00:11:01.560 --> 00:11:02.900 +I'm on your fasted computer. + +00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:04.600 +[Speaker 1]: Some of you, too, that's the nagging. + +00:11:04.600 --> 00:11:06.100 +I teach simple programming at a vocational + +00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:07.700 +school, and even after showing the students + +00:11:07.700 --> 00:11:09.520 +Vim, Vim, of course, is a contender, + +00:11:09.520 --> 00:11:11.260 +and now I'm telling them I prefer Emacs. + +00:11:12.180 --> 00:11:14.260 +They still all choose VS Code as their + +00:11:14.260 --> 00:11:17.460 +editor. Well, okay, what I did is mandatory. + +00:11:17.720 --> 00:11:19.140 +I didn't let them choose. + +00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:21.980 +That's what I did. And I thought that was + +00:11:21.980 --> 00:11:23.800 +quite risky, but in the end, + +00:11:23.860 --> 00:11:26.400 +it turns out that the best students loved it + +00:11:26.400 --> 00:11:28.580 +and keep using Emacs in their jobs. + +00:11:28.580 --> 00:11:32.640 +I hear that now. The students in the middle + +00:11:33.160 --> 00:11:35.860 +were probably the ones who would pick VS Code + +00:11:35.860 --> 00:11:38.400 +because every tutorial they see, + +00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:40.440 +they learn a lot through YouTube and so + +00:11:40.440 --> 00:11:42.260 +everything they see is in VS Code. + +00:11:42.260 --> 00:11:44.180 +If there were more tutorials in Emacs, + +00:11:44.180 --> 00:11:45.600 +I'm trying to make some, + +00:11:45.700 --> 00:11:47.620 +then of course that would be different. + +00:11:49.280 --> 00:11:53.940 +But I think it's partly brainwashing and + +00:11:53.940 --> 00:11:55.840 +partly, of course, the other reason is there + +00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:00.320 +is no online Emacs. They use VS Code Dev, + +00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:02.460 +right? And that's, of course, + +00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:05.140 +they use an online cloud solution. + +00:12:05.420 --> 00:12:07.040 +Like most of the students in the high school, + +00:12:07.040 --> 00:12:09.360 +I teach Python in the high school right now, + +00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:11.600 +and the students only get Chromebooks that + +00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.160 +are completely cut down to nothing. + +00:12:15.060 --> 00:12:17.420 +They cannot have Linux on their Chromebooks. + +00:12:18.260 --> 00:12:19.900 +So what are they supposed to do? + +00:12:19.900 --> 00:12:21.580 +Their only choice really is Repl. + +00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:24.240 +Repl.com is a possibility for them to do + +00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.540 +that. But, you know, or they use code spaces, + +00:12:27.660 --> 00:12:29.560 +which is VS Code in GitHub. + +00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:32.640 +[Speaker 0]: Marcus, sorry for the interruption. + +00:12:32.640 --> 00:12:34.040 +We only have about 2 minutes left. + +00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:35.380 +So if you could take 1 question, + +00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:36.760 +that would be great. Sorry. + +00:12:30.660 --> 00:12:38.100 +[Speaker 1]: So. I'm observing the same behavior. + +00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:40.080 +Any more tutorials will be most welcome. + +00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.660 +Yes, I I'd love to. I spent the rest of my + +00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:46.100 +days on this earth making Emacs tutorials if + +00:12:48.263 --> 00:12:49.267 +[Speaker 0]: tutorials if I can. + +00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.769 +[Speaker 1]: I can. Thank you. DMAX Thank you. + +00:12:49.769 --> 00:12:51.040 +Approach to handling EDA. + +00:12:51.140 --> 00:12:52.700 +Oh yeah, with white data sets. + +00:12:56.760 --> 00:12:58.940 +Well, that's a good point. + +00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.260 +[Speaker 0]: So Markus, I don't want to put you under too + +00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.680 +[Speaker 1]: answer the question. The handling EDA, + +00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:08.760 +I don't know, if you look at the comments, + +00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:09.960 +I think these are on YouTube, + +00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:11.340 +right, at some point, Leo? + +00:13:03.260 --> 00:13:12.600 +[Speaker 0]: much pressure to Oh yes, + +00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:13.860 +they will definitely be on YouTube. + +00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:14.540 +answer the + +00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.580 +[Speaker 1]: I'm going to question you asked about the + +00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.560 +EDA, that's too long to go into right now, + +00:13:17.560 --> 00:13:21.100 +plus my cat is here. So I'm going to answer + +00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:22.620 +that in the comments, all right? + +00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:24.160 +Start up the conversation. + +00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.800 +Yes, I'm going to post that in the comments + +00:13:27.800 --> 00:13:28.480 +as well. + +00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.500 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, but Also, just to be clear, + +00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.640 +Marcus, you're going to continue the + +00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:35.440 +discussion. It's just a stream that will be + +00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.160 +moving on to the next talk in about 50 + +00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:39.380 +seconds. Marcus, feel free to keep answering + +00:13:39.380 --> 00:13:40.760 +questions inside this room. + +00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.780 +You also have people, we're going to check + +00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:44.540 +aside with the stream, + +00:13:44.540 --> 00:13:46.280 +we have a number of people in the room. + +00:13:46.280 --> 00:13:48.300 +You can see them on the left on the button + +00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:51.360 +who are probably going to unmute themselves + +00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:52.580 +and ask you questions. + +00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:54.440 +So feel free to stay in the room, + +00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.100 +answer as lengthy as you want the questions + +00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:58.700 +because that's more content for us and we + +00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:01.640 +love it obviously. But it's just that I + +00:14:01.640 --> 00:14:03.760 +personally will be leaving to take care of + +00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:04.860 +the rest of the talks. + +00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:06.880 +So, Markus, do you have any last words before + +00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:07.740 +we move on? + +00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.680 +[Speaker 1]: No, just thank you for this wonderful... + +00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:11.080 +I'm going to copy this. + +00:14:11.660 --> 00:14:13.280 +I don't think I listened to the talk by + +00:14:13.280 --> 00:14:15.200 +Sascha yet, but I'm going to do that because + +00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.080 +I really want to copy this conference format. + +00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:19.860 +I think that is the conference format of the + +00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:21.820 +future, using volunteers to put together + +00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.100 +conferences. So I can't wait. + +00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:24.720 +Nobody wants to come to Batesville where I + +00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:25.840 +am, but thank you so much. + +00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.180 +That was really super professional. + +00:14:27.180 --> 00:14:28.040 +I love that. + +00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:32.420 +[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay, we are almost perfectly on time. + +00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:35.420 +I think we caught up about 1 or 2 seconds + +00:14:35.420 --> 00:14:37.200 +into the last sentence you said but otherwise + +00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.960 +we were splendidly on time. + +00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:40.260 +So thank you so much Marcus. + +00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.140 +[Speaker 1]: You're welcome. So I wanted to say a little + +00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:46.660 +bit about that question about handling EDA. + +00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:52.960 +[Speaker 0]: Can you see the chat on the left? + +00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:54.720 +Because people have started asking questions + +00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.180 +on the left. Can you see the chat? + +00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:56.866 +[Speaker 1]: I mean I used email. Sorry, + +00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:00.820 +[Speaker 0]: So you've got multiple avenues for questions. + +00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:01.166 +[Speaker 2]: You can + +00:15:01.166 --> 00:15:02.380 +[Speaker 0]: still answer questions in the chat. + +00:14:57.053 --> 00:15:03.760 +[Speaker 1]: sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm just going to go into + +00:15:03.760 --> 00:15:05.240 +that. Yeah, that's fine. + +00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.760 +[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll need to go now. + +00:15:06.760 --> 00:15:08.560 +So Marcus, have a great day and I'll probably + +00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:09.360 +see you later. + +00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.280 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, thank you. Sorry. + +00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:15.620 +Bye bye. There was a question about the, + +00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:17.560 +I wanted to ask the answer the question about + +00:15:17.560 --> 00:15:21.760 +EDA, large data sets. So, + +00:15:21.760 --> 00:15:24.660 +I mean, I teach undergraduate now, + +00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.100 +so there's a limited number of courses, + +00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:32.360 +like where I use, actually have big data + +00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.100 +issues. And I mean I'm not saying that I'm + +00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:38.760 +not that I don't run into performance issues + +00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:40.580 +with Emacs. I obviously do. + +00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:43.680 +But like the performance issues in Emacs are + +00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:45.780 +comparable to performance issues for example + +00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:49.580 +when using R. In R everything is in memory So + +00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:52.700 +you are limited to the available, + +00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.020 +what is it, 2 gigabyte or whatever memory of + +00:15:56.020 --> 00:15:58.180 +your computer. So you would have to find + +00:15:58.180 --> 00:16:00.360 +other infrastructure solutions anyway. + +00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:05.860 +The advantage of using Emacs is that I can, + +00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:07.620 +within 1 Org Mode file, + +00:16:08.140 --> 00:16:10.220 +connect to an external database. + +00:16:11.760 --> 00:16:13.840 +I can even, as probably most of you know, + +00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.860 +I can even use it as a text-based web browser + +00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:20.640 +if I want to. So I could look at individual + +00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:26.820 +files. And the other point of EDA of course + +00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.640 +is that you're not supposed to look at the + +00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:33.260 +tables. You're supposed to get the basic + +00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.300 +frame of your data. Is there a header? + +00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:43.780 +What's the approximate size and stuff like + +00:16:43.780 --> 00:16:45.940 +that? And then you're supposed to import it + +00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:47.580 +into a data frame ideally, + +00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.260 +at least in portions. And I don't think, + +00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.260 +yeah, so that's it. But the full answer is + +00:16:56.260 --> 00:16:59.980 +that I have not done big data analysis in + +00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:02.280 +Emacs. So that's actually a really nice + +00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:06.060 +extension. I'm going to write that down as a + +00:17:06.060 --> 00:17:08.260 +thing to talk about in some future talk. + +00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:10.819 +Okay, so ADA with big data. + +00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.940 +Even though interesting would be to know what + +00:17:13.940 --> 00:17:16.560 +kind of size of data you're actually talking + +00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:19.300 +about. So I don't know, + +00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:25.940 +what is it, upwards of 1 terabyte or + +00:17:25.940 --> 00:17:27.520 +something like that, I don't know. + +00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:29.020 +That'd be interesting to know. + +00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:34.940 +Haven't done that in class. + +00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:40.460 +So there's another question. + +00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:43.020 +Proportion of students that you think would + +00:17:43.020 --> 00:17:44.820 +keep on using Emacs after your course? + +00:17:44.820 --> 00:17:46.000 +That's not a difficult question, + +00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.880 +because as I said, I have very small classes. + +00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.200 +I've been here since 2 years. + +00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.540 +So I'm in touch with almost all the students. + +00:17:51.580 --> 00:17:54.760 +In fact, I'm getting them work after school. + +00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:55.980 +So that's really cool. + +00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:00.660 +And everybody who took to Emacs really + +00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:03.900 +seriously, so probably about 25% or so keep + +00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:06.160 +using Emacs after, afterwards. + +00:18:06.560 --> 00:18:08.360 +I mean, even in the job, + +00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:10.080 +right, in the professional field. + +00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.080 +Who, those who keep using Emacs after the + +00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:15.180 +course, I think the number is greater, + +00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:16.920 +but I have not followed up on that. + +00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:23.140 +I have to, my guess is more than half, + +00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:25.360 +I would say, half or more than half. + +00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:27.880 +Oh, Aaron, thank you so much. + +00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:31.320 +That's very sweet. But I didn't think the + +00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:32.300 +presentation was great. + +00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:33.840 +I was thinking about redoing it, + +00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.700 +but this is actually the first take. + +00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:38.860 +It was late, I had lots of other stuff to do. + +00:18:40.840 --> 00:18:44.700 +I think what I'm more interested in than + +00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:47.260 +papers is probably this idea of making + +00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:51.020 +Emacs-based data science videos because there + +00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:52.120 +aren't many out there. + +00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:53.600 +Most of the people who do, + +00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.240 +and computer science, most people who do that + +00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.240 +are not either developers and certainly not + +00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.080 +teachers. So I think that's a good idea. + +00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.740 +I'm gonna pick that up. + +00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:15.540 +So to do more Remax based data science videos + +00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:20.200 +Is there anything else? + +00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:22.360 +More people. There are some people here in + +00:19:22.360 --> 00:19:23.300 +the room still. + +00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:26.100 +[Speaker 2]: If you do a PSVL on work. + +00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:31.140 +What? Or wiki. What's my YouTube channel? + +00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:36.220 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you the, + +00:19:36.560 --> 00:19:38.520 +I've got a bunch of different YouTube + +00:19:38.520 --> 00:19:40.720 +channels. I'm going to put them in the + +00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.240 +comments to my talk. Hold on, + +00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:46.500 +the 1 where I have the latest Emacs videos, + +00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.740 +you find my name, there's nobody in the world + +00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:51.060 +with my name. So if you look for Gerten Krag + +00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:55.740 +on YouTube, then you will find it. + +00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:00.300 +But I got a bunch of them. + +00:20:00.300 --> 00:20:01.900 +Hold on, I'm going to give you the... + +00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:20.040 +My channel. Okay, This 1 has only got a few + +00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:24.300 +videos. But so there's 1 with a lot more. + +00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:32.720 +Few recent videos. And I'm going to post + +00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:41.320 +more. Other ones in the comments of this + +00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320 +video. Okay, what else? + +00:20:48.780 --> 00:20:51.140 +I'm trying to find my way back to the button. + +00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.200 +Okay, cool. Oh, yes, thank you. + +00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.500 +I will. That's very good. + +00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.120 +Thank you so much. Of course, + +00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:05.940 +I use Vork. I hadn't even thought of it. + +00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:15.140 +Very good. It's interesting, + +00:21:15.860 --> 00:21:18.020 +that's something that comes to my mind. + +00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:19.700 +When I was a young student, + +00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:24.020 +right, people who used Emacs and the web + +00:21:24.020 --> 00:21:25.920 +wasn't particularly large. + +00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.440 +So the volunteers would automatically make + +00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.420 +videos but not for commercial purposes. + +00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:34.740 +Now you have an army of people who make + +00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:37.700 +commercial videos and the videos are usually + +00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.020 +good for the first 10% of every content, + +00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:42.540 +but as soon as it gets a little more + +00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:44.760 +difficult, they either don't know what to do + +00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:48.600 +anymore or they don't do it because it's not + +00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:50.980 +commercially viable. The number of people who + +00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.720 +move on is gets smaller and smaller and + +00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.740 +smaller. So there's no commerce anymore. + +00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:57.840 +But when I was a student, + +00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:01.020 +pretty much all the documentation everywhere + +00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:02.360 +was created by volunteers, + +00:22:02.500 --> 00:22:04.840 +just like this conference or like anything in + +00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:09.520 +org mode. And that doesn't seem to be much of + +00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:12.760 +a trend anymore, but maybe we can resurrect + +00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:22.960 +it. So yes, I'm definitely gonna contribute + +00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.760 +to that. Multiple people are typing here. + +00:22:30.280 --> 00:22:36.180 +Oh, sorry. Yes. Thank you so much. + +00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.920 +I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna rectify that in + +00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:45.260 +the comment. Having said that, + +00:22:45.260 --> 00:22:49.820 +I am not 100% sure that I didn't lie here. + +00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:52.760 +May just be because I didn't have much time + +00:22:52.760 --> 00:22:54.340 +to put the presentation together. + +00:22:54.340 --> 00:22:56.820 +And it's perfectly possible that that's + +00:22:56.820 --> 00:22:59.760 +actually Google slides and not all reveal. + +00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:02.360 +In the classroom when I present and just do + +00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:04.100 +lectures, I always do reveal, + +00:23:04.600 --> 00:23:07.900 +but most of the time I do a tree slide. + +00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.840 +That's the quickest way to do it for me. + +00:23:10.840 --> 00:23:15.060 +So, so presentation. Hold on, + +00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:16.580 +Let me just copy this 1. + +00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.780 +Make sure that this doesn't get lost. + +00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:23.220 +Thank you so much for that. + +00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:26.100 +And presentations in class. + +00:23:28.780 --> 00:23:30.320 +I use sometimes org-present, + +00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:32.860 +but there are issues with the font sometimes. + +00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:36.960 +I use Treeslide most of the time and Org + +00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:44.740 +[Speaker 2]: tool. + +00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:46.780 +[Speaker 1]: Reveal. But this 1 is my top Of course, + +00:23:46.780 --> 00:23:49.140 +this is not org, so forget about that. + +00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:08.220 +Okay. Yeah, so you can send me your, + +00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.160 +you've got my email, I think, + +00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.060 +on the end, if you're interested in following + +00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:16.360 +up or letting me know about your stuff. + +00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:18.220 +It might be interesting to, + +00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.040 +I don't know, might be interesting to put + +00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:22.040 +together a conference or a little seminar + +00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:22.980 +just for educators. + +00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:39.025 +DF is still typing, I'm waiting. + +00:24:39.025 --> 00:24:39.780 +I'm waiting. + +00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:46.400 +[Speaker 2]: Actually, our mod maintainer, + +00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:52.340 +Bastien, was talking about possibility to + +00:24:52.340 --> 00:24:54.120 +have just org mod conference. + +00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:59.180 +But the question is, is it worth making a + +00:24:54.780 --> 00:25:02.940 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. A whole separate 1 what? + +00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:05.020 +[Speaker 2]: whole separate 1? A whole separate org + +00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:09.600 +[Speaker 1]: Oh, I see. Yeah, probably would be. + +00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340 +Actually. + +00:25:05.020 --> 00:25:13.940 +[Speaker 2]: dedicated conference. It's just like you see + +00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:15.980 +how EmacsConf is well done. + +00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:19.340 +So it's like creating anything that has good + +00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:25.540 +[Speaker 1]: Yes. No, I think that's a good idea. + +00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:26.620 +Yeah, I mean. + +00:25:19.340 --> 00:25:30.480 +[Speaker 2]: is tricky. I mean, Okay, + +00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.920 +it's anywhere, like half of Emacs is anywhere + +00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.880 +remote. So it's almost the same. + +00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.200 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Well, I suppose at this point, + +00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.520 +I don't know if that's what you mean. + +00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:45.020 +Org Mode is probably what attracts people to + +00:25:45.020 --> 00:25:47.040 +Emacs in the first place. + +00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:51.040 +Like, I suppose Org Roam is the, + +00:25:51.260 --> 00:25:54.600 +maybe the biggest 1 for people even outside + +00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:58.080 +of computer science. I use Org.ROM + +00:25:58.280 --> 00:26:02.760 +for everything. But there are... + +00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:05.840 +I mean, the thresholds... + +00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:07.900 +I think that the maintainer or maybe the + +00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:10.520 +creator of Org.MODE has claimed and said for + +00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:13.140 +many years that Org Mode itself doesn't + +00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:14.680 +actually necessarily need Emacs. + +00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.360 +You can have it as a completely separate + +00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.740 +application as well. But I, + +00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:21.040 +for a number of reasons, + +00:26:21.040 --> 00:26:23.440 +I don't like that. I really like the idea to + +00:26:28.434 --> 00:26:30.620 +[Speaker 2]: why- The current strategy is that It has to + +00:26:30.620 --> 00:26:33.580 +be Emacs because the configurability is 1 of + +00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:35.140 +the strong points anyway. + +00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:35.820 +[Speaker 1]: have it inside Emacs. The reason That's true. + +00:26:35.820 --> 00:26:37.620 +[Speaker 2]: You cannot make a separate application. + +00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:38.080 +No, + +00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:39.800 +[Speaker 1]: that's true. I was going to say that. + +00:26:39.800 --> 00:26:41.500 +The thing is you use the flexibility. + +00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.220 +Plus, you also use the, + +00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.080 +I don't know if that's the right word, + +00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:48.760 +but you use there's something about the free + +00:26:48.760 --> 00:26:52.600 +ideology of Emacs that is what attracted me + +00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:56.260 +to it in the first place when I was younger + +00:26:56.460 --> 00:27:00.290 +and that I find even more important now. + +00:27:00.765 --> 00:27:03.520 +So what they say the community aspect, + +00:27:06.220 --> 00:27:08.800 +the reason, the main reason why Python is so + +00:27:08.800 --> 00:27:13.100 +big today, really. So yeah. + +00:27:15.060 --> 00:27:17.860 +[Speaker 2]: But in terms of going out of Emacs, + +00:27:17.860 --> 00:27:21.300 +it's org syntax that is supposed to be like + +00:27:21.820 --> 00:27:23.260 +breaking out of Emacs. + +00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.860 +So like there's a plan to lay out the actual + +00:27:28.860 --> 00:27:31.420 +standard document so that you can register + +00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:32.540 +the format officially. + +00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:34.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Yeah, I think I've heard that too. + +00:27:34.760 --> 00:27:36.560 +I've not followed up on it much. + +00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.320 +I don't know what the, + +00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.260 +I mean, that probably would, + +00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.040 +it would strength, very likely, + +00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:45.100 +if you do that, it would at least for a short + +00:27:45.100 --> 00:27:47.660 +time, strengthen org mode and weaken emacs. + +00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:50.880 +I don't know what other examples, + +00:27:51.580 --> 00:27:54.660 +if there are other examples of applications + +00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:57.840 +pulled out of IDEs like that. + +00:27:57.840 --> 00:27:59.480 +I'm not aware of any others. + +00:28:00.300 --> 00:28:02.680 +[Speaker 2]: Actually, people are trying to make + +00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.920 +three-seater drama. People are trying to make + +00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:06.240 +like some external parsers, + +00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:10.320 +a lot of them. And a lot of stuff is done on + +00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:12.940 +mobile part. I can draw it to iOS, + +00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.780 +especially recently. So things that are Emacs + +00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:19.780 +independent are demanded. + +00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:23.040 +[Speaker 1]: Okay, yeah. I have no doubt that there is a + +00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.620 +[Speaker 2]: Especially in the environment, + +00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:28.040 +like every time. + +00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:30.680 +[Speaker 1]: demand. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get into that + +00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:35.020 +very much. I have some of my students have 0 + +00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:36.900 +affinity with computers. + +00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:39.900 +They really don't know their way around their + +00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:44.320 +computers at all. And so for them, + +00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:51.440 +It is quite important to learn how to find + +00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:56.520 +your way around Emacs because it's like a + +00:28:56.520 --> 00:28:57.820 +little operating system, + +00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.300 +but it's not. It's an operating system + +00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:03.960 +without much of the obscurity. + +00:29:05.080 --> 00:29:07.960 +And the alternative to that would be to + +00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.520 +simply let them work only on the command + +00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:12.480 +line, which is another possibility. + +00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.160 +But, you know, there of course you are + +00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:20.540 +limited with regard to if you want to swap + +00:29:20.540 --> 00:29:23.500 +languages. So for example, + +00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:26.000 +quite often I find myself in the situation I + +00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.780 +teach data science in R and Python and in + +00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:31.520 +Emacs org mode I can demonstrate both of + +00:29:31.520 --> 00:29:35.100 +these side by side in the same file. + +00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:38.700 +And that's a great advantage. + +00:29:39.800 --> 00:29:42.540 +Not to overburden the students when they are + +00:29:43.060 --> 00:29:45.100 +at the beginning with things that you don't + +00:29:45.100 --> 00:29:47.620 +want them to necessarily learn about. + +00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.000 +And plus the thing what I like as a graduate + +00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.440 +student when I stepped onto Emacs was that it + +00:29:54.440 --> 00:30:00.140 +was infinite possibilities to lose myself in + +00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:03.060 +Emacs and you know go on and learn more stuff + +00:30:03.060 --> 00:30:06.680 +about it. But it's such a long time ago that + +00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:10.360 +I barely dare to mention it anymore. + +00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:12.880 +[Speaker 2]: For command line, actually, + +00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.080 +it's since the Jupyter notebooks and that + +00:30:17.080 --> 00:30:19.400 +Google thing they are running. + +00:30:20.820 --> 00:30:23.820 +It's getting so popular that it's clear that + +00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:26.760 +command line is just losing in popularity in + +00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:31.920 +[Speaker 1]: well, yes and no. I mean, + +00:30:26.760 --> 00:30:33.360 +[Speaker 2]: this. Yeah, of course, + +00:30:36.100 --> 00:30:38.400 +Not the usage. People are still using it, + +00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:38.900 +obviously. + +00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:41.020 +[Speaker 1]: I mean, in Google Colab, + +00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.620 +only the paid version allows you to go to the + +00:30:43.620 --> 00:30:45.460 +terminal and use the command line. + +00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:48.580 +But of course, the traction, + +00:30:48.580 --> 00:30:50.140 +and I think that's kind of interesting, + +00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:54.680 +1 of the reasons why IPython or any of the + +00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.960 +Jupyter notebooks are so cool is because you + +00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.940 +can use a lot of shell commands from the + +00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.080 +IPython shell. There's a whole bunch of magic + +00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:07.000 +commands which are quite powerful. + +00:31:07.040 --> 00:31:10.020 +I mean the the 1 that comes to mind is time. + +00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:12.940 +The time command for example you know gives + +00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:15.720 +you a really nice performance quick + +00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:17.660 +performance check. There's a bunch of + +00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:19.780 +different, I think probably close to a + +00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.340 +hundred magic commands that you can use in + +00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:25.600 +Jupyter. But I don't know JupyterLab too + +00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:28.840 +well, but I noticed that the companies that + +00:31:28.840 --> 00:31:31.080 +do online training, And they are usually the + +00:31:31.080 --> 00:31:34.920 +ones that are closest to what beginners want, + +00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:36.100 +especially in business. + +00:31:36.280 --> 00:31:38.220 +And what those companies do is they, + +00:31:38.560 --> 00:31:41.720 +you know, they take, they take JupyterLab and + +00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:43.740 +turn it into a presentation of their own. + +00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:45.320 +Another 1 is Notable, notable.io. + +00:31:46.840 --> 00:31:49.900 +That's another 1. They took JupyterLab and + +00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:51.320 +turned it into something commercial. + +00:31:51.340 --> 00:31:52.920 +It's boosted up a little bit. + +00:31:55.840 --> 00:32:00.480 +And so the shell inside the JupyterLab has + +00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.120 +some of the most more important shell + +00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:05.440 +properties. And so people still use the + +00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.080 +command line without knowing that they use + +00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:13.100 +the command line. But I also like doing, + +00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.300 +how do I use org-roam? + +00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:22.020 +Well, I use it, I do not have not used it + +00:32:22.020 --> 00:32:23.000 +with the students yet, + +00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.020 +only the best students have sort of seen me + +00:32:25.020 --> 00:32:29.780 +use it and copied it. But I use it probably + +00:32:29.780 --> 00:32:32.000 +in a very naive, trivial way. + +00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.620 +I can't say that I am, + +00:32:34.300 --> 00:32:36.960 +that I have a very sophisticated use. + +00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:39.640 +I basically, I like the fact that, + +00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.100 +I mean, it's built on the original concept of + +00:32:43.100 --> 00:32:44.540 +the, with the German word, + +00:32:44.540 --> 00:32:48.280 +Zettelkasten, right? Which is that you do not + +00:32:48.280 --> 00:32:50.940 +have to think about a taxonomy because as you + +00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:53.800 +move along, your taxonomy changes all the + +00:32:53.800 --> 00:32:55.580 +time. You know, what you think is important + +00:32:55.580 --> 00:32:57.320 +at the beginning, your root node, + +00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.940 +as you go along, you realize, + +00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:00.680 +oh, that's not the root node at all. + +00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.640 +There's a higher level and a higher level. + +00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.740 +And some of the lower levels are at the lower + +00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:06.300 +level, actually the higher level. + +00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:10.460 +So you're beginning to create hierarchies + +00:33:10.760 --> 00:33:14.340 +that are out of date as soon as you create + +00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:16.360 +the hierarchy. So what is the idea of the + +00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:18.480 +tittle custom is that anything that comes to + +00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.100 +your mind you can throw in the custom the box + +00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:26.580 +it literally means Box of notes and That's + +00:33:26.580 --> 00:33:27.740 +what I appreciate about it. + +00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:32.920 +So I create a I create a note pretty much for + +00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:35.780 +anything I do, but I've only used it for + +00:33:35.860 --> 00:33:38.160 +about a year and a half or so, + +00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:39.740 +or grown, maybe a year. + +00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:43.700 +So I can see that I'm coming up against the + +00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:46.980 +Zettelkasten or note box problems, + +00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:50.860 +which is that I've got so many notes now that + +00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:52.960 +unless I have clever aliases, + +00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:56.680 +there is a chance that I might forget that I + +00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:00.400 +[Speaker 2]: That's why you need meta notes. + +00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:01.600 +[Speaker 1]: have a note. So I need a- Yes, + +00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:04.920 +[Speaker 2]: In other words, a summarization is important, + +00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:06.800 +no matter what system you use. + +00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:09.739 +[Speaker 1]: yes. But what I'm trying to say is that's a + +00:34:09.739 --> 00:34:11.260 +different approach than hierarchies, + +00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.620 +right? It's the same, it's the same, + +00:34:13.620 --> 00:34:15.960 +it's the same principle as a relational + +00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:18.719 +database versus a hierarchical database. + +00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:23.360 +Same thing. So, yeah, and I've not used that. + +00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.400 +I've not really used, actually I have cut + +00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:27.020 +meta notes, of course I do. + +00:34:27.100 --> 00:34:29.000 +So notes that point to other notes. + +00:34:29.487 --> 00:34:34.924 +Yes, of course. I use those. + +00:34:35.412 --> 00:34:38.800 +I have not taught that part to the students + +00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.860 +because I do project work with the students, + +00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:46.320 +but there's only so much time. + +00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.219 +I'm already, I mean, already, + +00:34:48.340 --> 00:34:51.000 +I don't think there's any class that where I + +00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:55.860 +am able to use more than 30% of my material. + +00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:57.620 +And the reason is that when the students come + +00:34:57.620 --> 00:34:59.220 +to class, which is I pointed out in the + +00:34:59.220 --> 00:35:01.100 +video, they know so little. + +00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:03.720 +And most of the students, + +00:35:03.720 --> 00:35:04.960 +at least in liberal arts, + +00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:10.280 +spend just too little time outside of class, + +00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:11.600 +getting there, you know, + +00:35:11.600 --> 00:35:13.040 +drilling down into the, + +00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:14.640 +into the, into the infrastructure, + +00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:17.060 +into the work. Only, only the best students + +00:35:17.060 --> 00:35:19.320 +do that. The ones that really catch fire. + +00:35:20.080 --> 00:35:22.280 +[Speaker 2]: Don't you have something like a course + +00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:23.760 +project at the end? + +00:35:24.140 --> 00:35:25.760 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, I have course, not at the end. + +00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:27.720 +I use Scrum. Maybe I shouldn't, + +00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:29.640 +but I've used Scrum for many years. + +00:35:30.040 --> 00:35:32.600 +So I have course projects that start at the + +00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:35.280 +beginning and they do sprint reviews every 3 + +00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:40.640 +or 4 weeks. So term end projects I find + +00:35:40.640 --> 00:35:43.080 +completely useless because the students do + +00:35:43.080 --> 00:35:45.060 +the work at the very end of the term. + +00:35:46.220 --> 00:35:49.600 +[Speaker 2]: no, by determined I mean they don't start at + +00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:51.880 +the end, they just report at the end. + +00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:52.960 +[Speaker 1]: And so I... Oh I use the IMRAD, + +00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.300 +I use the IMRAD method. + +00:35:54.340 --> 00:35:58.160 +So I use IMRAD, basically IMRAD plus, + +00:35:58.700 --> 00:36:00.300 +plus Scrum, right? So, + +00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.220 +So the first sprint review is introductory, + +00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:03.480 +the research proposal, + +00:36:03.540 --> 00:36:05.040 +the second 1 is about methodology, + +00:36:05.060 --> 00:36:06.360 +the third 1 about results, + +00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.040 +and the last 1 is their final presentation. + +00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.100 +And so that's the way I manage the projects, + +00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:16.040 +but that's about as much as I can do with + +00:36:16.040 --> 00:36:17.640 +them. It's a good idea. + +00:36:17.640 --> 00:36:19.780 +I hadn't even thought about using Org-ROM + +00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:22.760 +with them, but to teach them that might be a + +00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:24.180 +good idea, actually. + +00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:27.220 +[Speaker 2]: Well, for Org-ROM, actually, + +00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:32.360 +what I found useful during my graduate is for + +00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:34.740 +literature review. Yes. + +00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.360 +The other part of our program that is not + +00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.580 +about your like noting down your thoughts is + +00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:42.900 +about writing about literature notes. + +00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:45.480 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's a good idea actually. + +00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:46.320 +And of course, I mean, + +00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.180 +there's more stuff that they should learn, + +00:36:48.180 --> 00:36:50.140 +you know, like another 1, + +00:36:50.140 --> 00:36:51.780 +since you mentioned literature, + +00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:54.640 +you know, latex and Bibtech is another + +00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.840 +obvious extension of that. + +00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:01.120 +But that is actually a good idea because the + +00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:03.080 +literature is what they have the hardest time + +00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:06.980 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, like when you need to read like 50 + +00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:07.480 +papers. + +00:37:03.080 --> 00:37:12.480 +[Speaker 1]: with. Last term, since you mentioned that, + +00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.220 +I had a really nice experience because 1 of + +00:37:16.220 --> 00:37:18.300 +our librarians, our digital librarian, + +00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:19.920 +came along and talked to the students, + +00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.580 +and he taught me about a tool called + +00:37:21.580 --> 00:37:23.540 +litmap.com, which is basically, + +00:37:24.140 --> 00:37:25.420 +I don't know how it's implemented, + +00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.180 +but it's basically a graph, + +00:37:28.140 --> 00:37:31.620 +a graph representation of papers organized by + +00:37:31.620 --> 00:37:35.580 +citation. It's very, very cool. + +00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.480 +And the students who used to only find, + +00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.080 +I don't know, 1 paper and otherwise, + +00:37:41.180 --> 00:37:44.880 +of course, 15 YouTube videos and 100 blogs, + +00:37:45.380 --> 00:37:49.360 +suddenly started finding and reading + +00:37:49.540 --> 00:37:52.120 +scientific papers. It was only because of + +00:37:52.120 --> 00:37:54.900 +this presentation. So you should take the, + +00:37:55.640 --> 00:37:57.580 +I think, I hope that is the right, + +00:37:58.320 --> 00:37:59.560 +that's the right mode, + +00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.380 +litmaps. Okay, it's not litmap, + +00:38:02.380 --> 00:38:05.640 +it's called Litmaps. I'm gonna give you an + +00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:09.000 +example. I don't know if I can share this, + +00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.240 +if you can look at that. + +00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:13.640 +But basically you create a, + +00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:16.580 +1 can use 1 of your papers as a seed, + +00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.840 +and then it will create a graph, + +00:38:19.660 --> 00:38:21.760 +graph representation of it for you. + +00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:25.220 +And this is a powerful tool in itself. + +00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.600 +But what I'm saying is that the students + +00:38:27.620 --> 00:38:30.900 +suddenly, their use of literature and that + +00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:32.560 +citation goes to the roof. + +00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:35.680 +And I've been waiting for that for probably + +00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:38.300 +15 years since I've started teaching. + +00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.420 +It's crazy. That's really cool. + +00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:47.720 +[Speaker 2]: Here is the same tool, + +00:38:47.720 --> 00:38:49.400 +it's called connected papers. + +00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.540 +It's based on the open source citation data. + +00:38:54.140 --> 00:38:56.340 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I know that as well, + +00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:57.180 +I think. + +00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:01.560 +[Speaker 2]: It's actually very useful when you just start + +00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:03.960 +learning the topic. It's like you find 1 + +00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.800 +paper, then you look into the connections. + +00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:08.260 +You can quickly narrow down to the most + +00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:09.500 +cited, the core papers. + +00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:12.500 +[Speaker 1]: Of course. And that is exactly their + +00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.800 +situation, you know, and they're always at + +00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.740 +the beginning. As you go on, + +00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:18.680 +you develop different ways, + +00:39:18.680 --> 00:39:20.140 +but for these complete beginners, + +00:39:20.200 --> 00:39:22.680 +that's a good idea. Thank you so much for + +00:39:22.680 --> 00:39:30.520 +that. Okay, guys, anything else? + +00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:32.440 +I've enjoyed the conversation, + +00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:33.960 +so you should definitely, + +00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.940 +I'm going to take some of these things away. + +00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.340 +Thank you so much for that. + +00:39:42.340 --> 00:39:45.740 +Have you done, Yanta, have you done org mode + +00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:48.200 +documentations yourself on WOC? + +00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:52.120 +Or do you have a sort of a favorite 1? + +00:39:52.120 --> 00:39:53.600 +I mean, I often on walk, + +00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:56.740 +I often use the documentation for code + +00:39:56.740 --> 00:39:59.620 +blocks. I used to when I started doing that + +00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.800 +[Speaker 2]: Yeah, because it's only on work. + +00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:04.260 +It's not part of the manual. + +00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:05.280 +[Speaker 1]: for the first time. Yeah, + +00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.440 +yeah. And so I've used that a lot. + +00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:09.560 +[Speaker 2]: Have I done? Not really, + +00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:11.460 +mostly fixing the errors. + +00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:12.760 +Okay. + +00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.100 +[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. + +00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.780 +All right. Well, thank you very much. + +00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.360 +And it's great to be at this conference. + +00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:24.440 +I think I'm going to get on. + +00:40:27.660 --> 00:40:29.240 +[Speaker 2]: Thanks for answering all the questions. + +00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:32.560 +And for the talk, It was quite interesting to + +00:40:32.560 --> 00:40:35.660 +see our modules in actual teaching. + +00:40:36.200 --> 00:40:38.600 +[Speaker 1]: Yes, thank you. And I got to thank Daniel + +00:40:38.600 --> 00:40:40.840 +German from Canada, the 1 of, + +00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:43.660 +I had him on 1 of the slides because he, + +00:40:43.660 --> 00:40:45.380 +he inspired me to do that. + +00:40:45.380 --> 00:40:47.540 +And, and I wouldn't be at the conference if I + +00:40:47.540 --> 00:40:49.480 +hadn't contacted him and said oh here's my + +00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:50.980 +paper and he said oh you should come to the + +00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:52.680 +conference and so that's why I came to the + +00:40:52.680 --> 00:40:58.480 +conference. Thank you very much and as they + +00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:04.100 +say keep in touch. You're welcome. + +00:41:04.100 --> 00:41:05.060 +Okay bye-bye. You're welcome. + +00:41:05.060 --> 00:41:15.820 +Okay, bye-bye. Take a copy of the chat before + +00:41:15.820 --> 00:41:22.360 +you go, if you can. Happy weekend to just bye + +00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:22.860 +bye. + +00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:36.840 +[Speaker 0]: You are currently the only person in this + +00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:37.340 +conference. + +00:42:00.060 --> 00:42:00.560 +[Speaker 1]: You |