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diff --git a/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-core--emacs-core-development-how-it-works--stefan-kangas--main.vtt b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-core--emacs-core-development-how-it-works--stefan-kangas--main.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..2d7cd23d --- /dev/null +++ b/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-core--emacs-core-development-how-it-works--stefan-kangas--main.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,4664 @@ +WEBVTT + + +00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:03.840 +All right. Hi again, everyone. + +00:00:03.840 --> 00:00:04.839 +It's been a while. Well, + +00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:06.980 +actually, it's been like 2 minutes tops. + +00:00:07.819 --> 00:00:09.099 +We were just with John Wheatley, + +00:00:09.099 --> 00:00:11.019 +and now we are with Stefan Krangas. + +00:00:11.120 --> 00:00:15.900 +Hi. Hi. So as we said before, + +00:00:16.160 --> 00:00:20.600 +Stefan is co-maintainer now of Is it the + +00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:22.920 +entire Emacs project? How do you describe + +00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:26.260 +this? Yeah, co-maintainer of GNU Emacs. + +00:00:27.439 --> 00:00:29.380 +Right, perfect. So you know what? + +00:00:29.380 --> 00:00:31.760 +Because I'm sure everyone is dying to hear + +00:00:32.420 --> 00:00:33.840 +everything you've got to say in your + +00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.040 +presentation I'm just going to shut up now + +00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:37.640 +and leave the floor to you. + +00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:39.440 +Do you need to share your screen or anything? + +00:00:40.080 --> 00:00:45.239 +No. Okay great well I'll just cut my webcam + +00:00:45.239 --> 00:00:47.059 +off I'll still be in the background so do not + +00:00:47.059 --> 00:00:48.940 +hesitate if you've got any problem I'm still + +00:00:48.940 --> 00:00:52.560 +around And I'll see you just beacon whenever + +00:00:52.560 --> 00:00:53.940 +you're done. And I'll show up with the + +00:00:53.940 --> 00:00:56.120 +questions. All right? Thank you, + +00:00:56.120 --> 00:00:58.739 +Leo. And thank you, everyone, + +00:00:58.739 --> 00:01:02.379 +for being here. I'm Stefan Kangas. + +00:01:02.739 --> 00:01:06.660 +So as Leo explained, I am recently appointed + +00:01:06.680 --> 00:01:09.660 +as a co-maintainer of GNU Emacs, + +00:01:10.960 --> 00:01:13.400 +which a role that I'm fulfilling currently + +00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.460 +with Eli Sretsky, who's been co-maintainer + +00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:23.320 +for quite some time. So I got the question to + +00:01:23.320 --> 00:01:26.780 +be a co-maintainer from Richard in August + +00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.280 +this year. And of course, + +00:01:29.600 --> 00:01:31.460 +when you get a question like that, + +00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:34.020 +I couldn't not say yes. + +00:01:34.360 --> 00:01:39.440 +So here we are. I can't tell you how excited + +00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:45.060 +I am to have this opportunity to address the + +00:01:45.060 --> 00:01:47.380 +community in this way. + +00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:49.800 +I'm really humbled, of course, + +00:01:50.380 --> 00:01:55.040 +to be part of it, and to be able to serve the + +00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:59.080 +community in this capacity. + +00:02:00.080 --> 00:02:04.080 +I've used Emacs, I think many of you might + +00:02:04.080 --> 00:02:06.820 +also have used Emacs for quite some time, + +00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:11.100 +but I'm going on 2 decades as an Emacs user. + +00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:14.280 +My involvement in Emacs Lisp development is, + +00:02:14.280 --> 00:02:16.160 +I mean, almost as long, + +00:02:16.660 --> 00:02:19.680 +but my core development goes back only 4, + +00:02:19.960 --> 00:02:26.700 +5 years. I have to also thank the EmacsConf + +00:02:27.180 --> 00:02:28.840 +organizers who are doing, + +00:02:29.100 --> 00:02:31.960 +I think, a tremendous job and have done a + +00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:34.820 +tremendous job over the years in really + +00:02:34.820 --> 00:02:37.800 +building and strengthening what I think is + +00:02:38.300 --> 00:02:42.180 +this fantastic community of users and + +00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:46.120 +developers and people interested in Emacs. + +00:02:46.620 --> 00:02:50.100 +I actually had the chance to meet up with Eli + +00:02:50.100 --> 00:02:53.700 +Sretzky, as well as another Emacs hacker, + +00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:57.080 +Andrea Corallo, when I was at the GNU + +00:02:57.980 --> 00:03:00.460 +project's 40 years celebration, + +00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.340 +40 years since the GNU project was announced. + +00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.540 +And it was very inspiring in general to meet + +00:03:09.660 --> 00:03:12.780 +people. And I think EmacsConf should also, + +00:03:12.980 --> 00:03:18.360 +I think, serve to inspire and sort of help + +00:03:19.020 --> 00:03:22.120 +bring something to the type of work that many + +00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.340 +of us are doing to improve Emacs, + +00:03:24.340 --> 00:03:26.200 +whether it's in package development or in + +00:03:26.200 --> 00:03:29.680 +core, to bring out the new and exciting ideas + +00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.040 +and get people enthusiastic about Emacs, + +00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.580 +about hacking on Emacs. + +00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:45.400 +This is my little attempt to contribute with + +00:03:45.600 --> 00:03:49.440 +let's say 2 things. I will first try to + +00:03:49.600 --> 00:03:54.400 +present how we do Emacs core development and + +00:03:54.400 --> 00:03:58.360 +why we've done some of the choices that we + +00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.060 +have, because We have seen at times that + +00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:06.500 +perhaps people aren't always clear on this or + +00:04:06.500 --> 00:04:08.660 +that aspect. So maybe this will be + +00:04:08.960 --> 00:04:12.260 +enlightening. I will also try to present some + +00:04:12.260 --> 00:04:17.860 +kind of vision for what Emacs could be with + +00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:21.680 +your help. Emacs is already very good, + +00:04:21.820 --> 00:04:26.880 +as we all know, but we could be even better. + +00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:29.940 +That's the reality of any type of software + +00:04:30.060 --> 00:04:35.100 +development. So the overall idea of this talk + +00:04:35.220 --> 00:04:38.380 +is to tell you, if you're an Emacs list + +00:04:38.380 --> 00:04:40.460 +package developer today, + +00:04:40.760 --> 00:04:44.200 +why you should become an Emacs core + +00:04:44.440 --> 00:04:47.300 +developer, and the sort of steps that you + +00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:49.340 +might want to take to do that, + +00:04:49.340 --> 00:04:52.100 +or how you can help Emacs core development. + +00:04:52.120 --> 00:04:54.320 +Even if you're just a user and you found a + +00:04:54.320 --> 00:04:57.340 +bug, report it. Perhaps you have a feature + +00:04:57.340 --> 00:04:58.820 +request that you'd like to discuss. + +00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:02.680 +I think we need more interaction in general + +00:05:02.900 --> 00:05:04.900 +between Emacs core developers, + +00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:06.440 +typically on emacsdevil.gnu.org, + +00:05:08.440 --> 00:05:12.420 +the mailing list that we use to coordinate + +00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:14.880 +our development efforts, + +00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:19.520 +between Emacs devil package developers and + +00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:22.460 +users, Because there is so much great stuff + +00:05:22.500 --> 00:05:24.740 +really going on in the community. + +00:05:25.520 --> 00:05:28.620 +But I think sometimes the step to core + +00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:32.500 +development seems big and perhaps even a + +00:05:32.500 --> 00:05:35.440 +little bit scary. So I'm hoping to be able to + +00:05:35.440 --> 00:05:38.720 +help bridge that gap, even if just a little + +00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:43.000 +bit. We need more people contributing to + +00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.740 +Emacs itself. And also a small disclaimer + +00:05:46.840 --> 00:05:49.920 +here, in this talk I will only be able to + +00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.700 +speak for myself, not for GNU or the Emacs + +00:05:53.760 --> 00:05:56.100 +project, even if it's like a little bit more + +00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:58.780 +official, but I will also try to give the + +00:05:58.780 --> 00:06:01.720 +view of the project where it makes sense to + +00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.200 +do so. Keep in mind, I'm only 1 of the + +00:06:04.200 --> 00:06:06.820 +maintainers, the co-maintainer together with + +00:06:06.820 --> 00:06:09.820 +Eli, and I can't just make decisions + +00:06:09.880 --> 00:06:11.400 +arbitrarily. In a sense, + +00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:14.180 +I'm as a co-maintainer and trusted as a + +00:06:14.180 --> 00:06:15.420 +steward and trusted by, + +00:06:15.420 --> 00:06:16.680 +of course, the GNU project, + +00:06:16.680 --> 00:06:22.000 +but also by the community That we really + +00:06:22.580 --> 00:06:24.180 +can't just take decisions, + +00:06:24.440 --> 00:06:27.380 +I think, arbitrarily. Even if it sometimes + +00:06:27.380 --> 00:06:30.560 +perhaps may seem so, or it may feel that way, + +00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:35.080 +we really have to realize that we can't just + +00:06:35.080 --> 00:06:39.200 +push too much of just a personal agenda to + +00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:41.520 +the extent that it doesn't line up with what + +00:06:41.520 --> 00:06:45.260 +is best for eMacs going forward, + +00:06:47.500 --> 00:06:50.320 +and the more overall picture of that. + +00:06:50.320 --> 00:06:52.640 +So there are limitations that come with the + +00:06:52.640 --> 00:06:59.940 +job, if you like. So 1 question I often, + +00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.280 +I actually got this week when I started a new + +00:07:02.280 --> 00:07:04.500 +assignment at work, and I got the question + +00:07:06.280 --> 00:07:08.720 +when I said I'm involved in Emacs + +00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:10.400 +development. And then someone asked, + +00:07:10.400 --> 00:07:12.480 +oh, is Emacs still developed? + +00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:16.400 +Isn't it done almost? And I answered to that, + +00:07:16.400 --> 00:07:17.880 +yes, we are still around. + +00:07:17.880 --> 00:07:21.940 +We're going on 40 years now as a software + +00:07:21.940 --> 00:07:25.940 +project. Not many projects actually can claim + +00:07:26.120 --> 00:07:29.020 +that type of longevity. + +00:07:29.540 --> 00:07:33.900 +But Emacs is among those few that can. + +00:07:33.900 --> 00:07:36.340 +And of course, we have had some very exciting + +00:07:36.340 --> 00:07:38.000 +developments in recent versions. + +00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.600 +I think John just gave you an update on that. + +00:07:41.980 --> 00:07:46.160 +But we had just some highlights out of many + +00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:47.940 +highlights that you could give, + +00:07:48.580 --> 00:07:50.920 +really, we got the TreeSetter support in + +00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.320 +Emacs 29 that we now need to sort of extend + +00:07:54.320 --> 00:07:56.340 +and develop. We have merged EGLOT, + +00:07:56.380 --> 00:07:59.440 +so we have LSP support out of the box, + +00:07:59.440 --> 00:08:00.980 +I think is a huge improvement. + +00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:02.960 +Native compilation, of course, + +00:08:02.960 --> 00:08:06.520 +a big feature. I mean, + +00:08:06.580 --> 00:08:08.900 +that was Andrea's job, + +00:08:08.900 --> 00:08:11.260 +really, for performance. + +00:08:11.460 --> 00:08:14.020 +And it turns out that in many types of + +00:08:14.020 --> 00:08:15.720 +workloads and the types of stuff that people + +00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:17.580 +are doing, it often matters. + +00:08:18.080 --> 00:08:21.180 +And we're hoping to make that the default, + +00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:24.960 +perhaps already in Emacs 30. + +00:08:24.960 --> 00:08:26.840 +So there are things that are happening that + +00:08:26.840 --> 00:08:31.680 +fundamentally make Emacs better at a very + +00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:37.360 +core level. So, of course, + +00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.679 +why wouldn't you want to be involved in such + +00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:43.440 +an exciting and, I think, + +00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:51.240 +dynamic project? How is Emacs developed? + +00:08:51.660 --> 00:08:53.000 +Well, this is, I think, + +00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:54.180 +perhaps to some people, + +00:08:54.200 --> 00:08:56.300 +a little bit more of a threshold, + +00:08:56.520 --> 00:08:59.100 +if you like, because I think all of us know + +00:08:59.100 --> 00:09:02.640 +really that there is exciting and cool stuff + +00:09:02.980 --> 00:09:06.560 +that is going on in Emacs and has been going + +00:09:06.560 --> 00:09:08.260 +on over the last couple of years and we'll + +00:09:08.260 --> 00:09:10.040 +see even more of that, + +00:09:10.040 --> 00:09:11.180 +I think, going forward. + +00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:16.580 +1 thing is that communication still takes + +00:09:16.580 --> 00:09:20.340 +place over a mailing list in 2023. + +00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:23.800 +So we have emacsdevil at gnu.org, + +00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:26.140 +and that's where we develop Emacs. + +00:09:26.680 --> 00:09:30.140 +We use, we send patches back and forth, + +00:09:30.140 --> 00:09:31.360 +we comment on patches. + +00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:36.420 +And actually this workflow is very good, + +00:09:36.700 --> 00:09:39.580 +if you're used to it. Because guess what? + +00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.200 +As Emacs users, we like doing everything we + +00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:45.220 +can in Emacs, especially the core tasks that + +00:09:45.220 --> 00:09:49.980 +we're doing, such as developing Emacs itself. + +00:09:50.140 --> 00:09:52.860 +Of course, you want to do that fully within + +00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:55.440 +Emacs. So we hack Emacs Lisp in Emacs, + +00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:58.840 +we hack C in Emacs, we respond to emails also + +00:10:00.240 --> 00:10:02.700 +from Emacs, respond to bug reports, + +00:10:02.700 --> 00:10:05.040 +manage bug reports. We do all that stuff + +00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:07.840 +very, very smoothly. And it doesn't really + +00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:10.540 +matter in a sense, what is the medium? + +00:10:10.560 --> 00:10:12.080 +It happens to be email. + +00:10:12.180 --> 00:10:14.160 +Technically it could be anything, + +00:10:14.440 --> 00:10:16.720 +but email really has that type of staying + +00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:19.640 +power where we've been able to use it for a + +00:10:19.640 --> 00:10:21.260 +long time. And this is how, + +00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.000 +and we're still able to use it. + +00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:25.800 +And this is how free software was always + +00:10:25.800 --> 00:10:26.640 +developed in the past. + +00:10:26.640 --> 00:10:28.380 +Only in the last, let's say 10, + +00:10:28.380 --> 00:10:32.440 +15 years, We've had more development taking + +00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:35.560 +place perhaps on forges like GitHub, + +00:10:35.580 --> 00:10:39.160 +GitLab, whatever. But we are 1 of the + +00:10:39.160 --> 00:10:40.680 +holdouts. I mean, there are others, + +00:10:40.680 --> 00:10:42.560 +of course, like the Linux kernel has mailing + +00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:44.340 +lists. They're not trying to do that scale + +00:10:44.340 --> 00:10:47.580 +development on GitHub. + +00:10:49.280 --> 00:10:51.360 +And this is not just because we're Luddites + +00:10:51.760 --> 00:10:53.560 +that refuse to change. + +00:10:53.560 --> 00:10:55.380 +We just have to do it in the old way, + +00:10:55.380 --> 00:10:57.120 +because it is the old way, + +00:10:57.120 --> 00:10:58.680 +and that's the way it should be. + +00:10:58.780 --> 00:11:00.420 +No, it's actually because we, + +00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:03.460 +as core developers, the core development team + +00:11:03.460 --> 00:11:05.460 +and the people already involved and doing + +00:11:05.460 --> 00:11:08.560 +tremendous, I mean large amounts of work in + +00:11:08.560 --> 00:11:12.480 +Emacs has very efficient workflows built up + +00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.620 +based on this. So of course, + +00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:17.780 +I mean moving to something else is something + +00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:20.180 +that we might like to do, + +00:11:20.580 --> 00:11:24.400 +but we're not yet clear on how to do it + +00:11:24.400 --> 00:11:26.100 +exactly and what to move to. + +00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:28.380 +So these are the types of discussions that + +00:11:28.380 --> 00:11:30.280 +we're looking at. Can we still support a + +00:11:30.280 --> 00:11:34.040 +mailing, an email type workflow while moving + +00:11:34.040 --> 00:11:36.100 +to something else? That would be 1 of the big + +00:11:36.100 --> 00:11:38.400 +ones. I think another thing that trips people + +00:11:38.400 --> 00:11:40.840 +up is that we used a bug tracker that, + +00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.620 +I mean, maybe some people, + +00:11:42.620 --> 00:11:45.560 +I've heard people say it's archaic. + +00:11:47.020 --> 00:11:49.900 +It's called Debugs. I think maybe Debugs gets + +00:11:49.900 --> 00:11:52.000 +a bit of a bad rap. I think that bugs is a + +00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:53.100 +good piece of software. + +00:11:53.520 --> 00:11:55.160 +It wasn't developed in 2023. + +00:11:55.580 --> 00:11:57.540 +I mean, that's much as clear. + +00:11:57.660 --> 00:11:58.880 +It's a little bit older, + +00:11:59.060 --> 00:12:01.320 +but it really is a workhorse of the Debian + +00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:03.820 +project, which is obviously a project that's + +00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:09.400 +developed in a very different way than Emacs + +00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:11.880 +is. It's on a completely different scale, + +00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:12.840 +of course, much bigger, + +00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:14.980 +many more developers, and so on. + +00:12:15.040 --> 00:12:17.800 +But I think the developers did a good job for + +00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:20.240 +the time. But it might be showing its age, + +00:12:20.920 --> 00:12:23.160 +perhaps, in places. Perhaps, + +00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:25.120 +again, it's the email workflow. + +00:12:25.260 --> 00:12:27.720 +And people see that as a little bit of a + +00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.180 +threshold. It seems alien. + +00:12:30.180 --> 00:12:31.300 +It's a little bit strange, + +00:12:32.220 --> 00:12:34.980 +the types of workflows that you have there. + +00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:38.860 +So we are seeing some limitations with that + +00:12:38.860 --> 00:12:40.940 +box. And again, how do you report bugs? + +00:12:41.020 --> 00:12:42.600 +Well, in a sense, it's easy. + +00:12:42.600 --> 00:12:46.660 +You send an email to bug-gnu-emacs at gnu.org + +00:12:47.620 --> 00:12:51.340 +and you copy in whatever you get from, + +00:12:51.340 --> 00:12:53.300 +you know, report the EMAX bug or if you have, + +00:12:53.300 --> 00:12:55.120 +you know, send mail set up locally, + +00:12:55.580 --> 00:12:58.700 +just hit control C, control C and it's sent + +00:12:58.700 --> 00:13:01.720 +to the bug tracker and that's fine. + +00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:08.680 +But also I have to mention that there is this + +00:13:08.680 --> 00:13:10.600 +very good package on GNU Elpas. + +00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.540 +If you're ever trying to read the Emacs bug + +00:13:13.540 --> 00:13:16.500 +tracker or following along in Emacs + +00:13:16.500 --> 00:13:19.000 +development, I really recommend install the + +00:13:19.000 --> 00:13:21.300 +package devbugs from GNU Elpa. + +00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:24.140 +It's so good. And again, + +00:13:24.140 --> 00:13:26.580 +it's built on GNU, it's all integrated in + +00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:30.040 +Emacs, it's so much better than using the web + +00:13:30.660 --> 00:13:33.220 +and so on. And if you really want to get into + +00:13:33.220 --> 00:13:38.040 +it, you can download the bug tracker archives + +00:13:38.140 --> 00:13:39.500 +and the mailing list archives, + +00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:41.260 +and you can put them locally, + +00:13:41.260 --> 00:13:42.380 +you can have them searchable, + +00:13:42.740 --> 00:13:44.440 +and you can have whatever experience you + +00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.340 +like. So, I mean, it's really a flexible + +00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.240 +workflow, but it's a bit strange, + +00:13:51.260 --> 00:13:52.620 +perhaps, to some people. + +00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:58.120 +So we also think supporting only this + +00:13:58.120 --> 00:14:00.140 +workflow might be a little bit too limiting. + +00:14:00.660 --> 00:14:04.200 +So we do want to move over to something like + +00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.760 +GitLab, perhaps Sourcehat or something + +00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:10.460 +similar. We've had a couple of discussions + +00:14:10.760 --> 00:14:14.000 +about that over the last couple of years. + +00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:15.820 +I think even before that, + +00:14:15.820 --> 00:14:18.940 +but that's how far back I've been involved, + +00:14:18.940 --> 00:14:21.800 +and definitely it's come up occasionally. + +00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:27.900 +I think we are less far away than perhaps + +00:14:27.940 --> 00:14:30.560 +ever is how I would express that, + +00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:36.680 +and in the sense that the remaining blockers + +00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:38.640 +for just making the shift, + +00:14:38.640 --> 00:14:40.200 +let's say, are I think, + +00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:42.120 +I mean, first of all, we're talking about + +00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:44.020 +limitations, perhaps in the software, + +00:14:44.020 --> 00:14:46.420 +they're well defined, and they're not as + +00:14:46.420 --> 00:14:49.060 +amountable. I don't think they have to be in + +00:14:49.060 --> 00:14:50.840 +any case. We should be able to make some + +00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:54.660 +progress. The main thing that we're lacking + +00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.480 +now is not more discussion or more people + +00:15:00.800 --> 00:15:03.120 +prodding us to just please switch over. + +00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.580 +No, we're looking for volunteers. + +00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:08.380 +If you think that you, + +00:15:08.400 --> 00:15:10.960 +you know, have what it takes to sort of come + +00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:14.060 +in and help us do something like that and + +00:15:14.060 --> 00:15:15.040 +work together with us, + +00:15:15.040 --> 00:15:16.840 +you know, to see what can be done, + +00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.200 +perhaps some, a few things would need to be + +00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:23.220 +changed in GitLab. I don't think anything + +00:15:23.220 --> 00:15:26.120 +huge, but maybe there are some patches to be + +00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:27.880 +written and sent upstream, + +00:15:27.980 --> 00:15:30.280 +or maybe we need to do some local hacks or + +00:15:30.280 --> 00:15:33.140 +whatever. If you wanna do that, + +00:15:33.140 --> 00:15:34.860 +please contact us, emacsdevil. + +00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:38.940 +We'll be very happy to talk to you. + +00:15:38.940 --> 00:15:40.460 +And then we can start making progress. + +00:15:40.520 --> 00:15:42.740 +So I'm really hoping that that sound like + +00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:46.620 +will come into place. But we need to, + +00:15:46.780 --> 00:15:52.340 +if we do switch over, we need to preserve the + +00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:54.820 +good parts of our email-based workflows. + +00:15:54.820 --> 00:15:57.140 +So there are requirements there so that we + +00:15:57.140 --> 00:16:00.180 +can continue to do our job as maintainers, + +00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.900 +if you like. Another thing is that we've + +00:16:04.900 --> 00:16:08.340 +sometimes seen that there's a bit of a + +00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.380 +different culture perhaps on mailing lists + +00:16:11.380 --> 00:16:15.060 +and on Emacs devil than what many people are + +00:16:15.060 --> 00:16:17.580 +used to, especially like you've used perhaps, + +00:16:17.800 --> 00:16:20.540 +many people might be in university and + +00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:23.500 +they've started using Emacs, + +00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:25.820 +maybe got into a little bit of package + +00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.060 +development and starting to get the ropes of + +00:16:29.060 --> 00:16:32.540 +that and are very used to working on places + +00:16:32.560 --> 00:16:35.460 +like GitLab or something like that, + +00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:38.000 +then the type of culture and way of + +00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.040 +communicating that we use in Emacs might be a + +00:16:42.040 --> 00:16:44.440 +little bit different. And of course, + +00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:47.360 +it's different in the sense that mailing + +00:16:47.380 --> 00:16:49.900 +lists have always, I mean, + +00:16:49.900 --> 00:16:51.060 +let's say hacker culture, + +00:16:51.060 --> 00:16:52.120 +whatever you want to call it, + +00:16:52.120 --> 00:16:54.400 +have always communicated in a particular way + +00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.340 +using mailing lists. So it's like succinct to + +00:16:58.340 --> 00:17:00.320 +the point, perhaps I'm skipping a few + +00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:03.340 +pleasantries. And the idea is that you should + +00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:08.000 +just use it in as effective way as possible, + +00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:11.099 +so that also the archives are usable. + +00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:13.660 +And the other thing is that generally people + +00:17:13.660 --> 00:17:16.500 +involved in developing free software has to + +00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:19.660 +deal with a lot of incoming traffic, + +00:17:19.780 --> 00:17:25.900 +emails. They don't have the bandwidth if it's + +00:17:25.900 --> 00:17:28.220 +too much noise. You really need to be strict + +00:17:28.220 --> 00:17:31.840 +to keep the signal to noise ratio high. + +00:17:31.840 --> 00:17:35.280 +We have some weird terminology on the Emacs + +00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:38.040 +devil. People tell us, + +00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:40.680 +we say sometimes install patches which + +00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.180 +basically means push to master or merge pull + +00:17:44.180 --> 00:17:46.720 +requests because we've used other version + +00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.600 +control systems in the past where it might + +00:17:48.600 --> 00:17:50.700 +have made more sense to say install patches. + +00:17:51.000 --> 00:17:52.540 +And then you sort of, I don't know, + +00:17:52.540 --> 00:17:54.380 +I say it. Don't ask me why. + +00:17:54.380 --> 00:17:56.040 +But it feels natural after a while. + +00:17:56.040 --> 00:17:57.720 +You install a patch. It's clear what you + +00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:02.280 +mean. You don't have to worry about which + +00:18:02.280 --> 00:18:05.940 +branch it's on. So it's a little bit + +00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:10.120 +historical there. So there is some of that + +00:18:10.120 --> 00:18:11.960 +culture going on. It might be different. + +00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:14.200 +We don't use emojis that much. + +00:18:14.220 --> 00:18:16.680 +That's another thing. There is no like, + +00:18:16.840 --> 00:18:20.900 +you can click the little like button at the + +00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:25.080 +bottom of a comment or an email as you could + +00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:27.740 +on GitHub. But there are exceptions and it's + +00:18:27.740 --> 00:18:29.600 +not like someone will send you angry emails + +00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:31.480 +if you use an emoji or something like that. + +00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.200 +But it can come off as perhaps Because people + +00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:37.180 +are pressed for time also when replying to + +00:18:37.260 --> 00:18:39.400 +all these emails. So it might come off as a + +00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.880 +little bit short, but that's just how it is. + +00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.880 +And I think We have heard this comment before + +00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:50.680 +that mailing lists are scary or Emacs devil + +00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.380 +is scary or core development is scary. + +00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:58.180 +And I've touched a few of these points a + +00:18:58.180 --> 00:18:59.620 +little bit already. I think, + +00:18:59.620 --> 00:19:01.500 +yeah, maybe a little bit. + +00:19:02.320 --> 00:19:05.740 +For example, we don't use emojis very short + +00:19:06.820 --> 00:19:10.940 +in the communication. And we always use + +00:19:10.940 --> 00:19:13.240 +correct grammar and spelling. + +00:19:13.380 --> 00:19:15.920 +We take that seriously because it's important + +00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.060 +for being clear in your written communication + +00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:21.540 +when all you have is written communication. + +00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.740 +It's really important. + +00:19:26.760 --> 00:19:31.400 +But it's not like If you come in there and + +00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:33.580 +you don't know all these cultural rules and + +00:19:33.580 --> 00:19:36.380 +all these patterns, then you know you will We + +00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:37.900 +won't talk to you No Actually, + +00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:41.100 +we try to be as welcoming as we can and and + +00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:44.600 +be mindful and you know people not Everyone + +00:19:44.600 --> 00:19:46.700 +has English as their native language, + +00:19:47.080 --> 00:19:49.200 +for example. So perhaps someone says + +00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.360 +something, and it might come off as rude, + +00:19:51.360 --> 00:19:53.200 +but maybe it's just a direct translation. + +00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:56.520 +So we're trying to give a lot of whatever the + +00:19:56.520 --> 00:19:59.760 +native language is. So we try to give a lot + +00:19:59.760 --> 00:20:01.780 +of leeway and just be a little bit, + +00:20:01.780 --> 00:20:03.580 +you know, flexible and focus on, + +00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:04.920 +you know, the key, key points, + +00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:06.580 +which are the technical things, + +00:20:06.580 --> 00:20:07.760 +the technical decisions, + +00:20:07.840 --> 00:20:09.280 +technical arguments, rather than, + +00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:11.920 +you know, getting bogged down in a lot of, + +00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.360 +you know, personal, you know, + +00:20:15.360 --> 00:20:19.220 +discussions and flame wars. + +00:20:19.300 --> 00:20:21.260 +So, I mean, there are these things to be + +00:20:21.260 --> 00:20:23.160 +aware of, you know, it's just a little bit + +00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:24.980 +different. I don't think it's anything huge. + +00:20:25.080 --> 00:20:26.620 +And I wouldn't be, you know, + +00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.480 +I think it would be sad if people felt too + +00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:32.320 +intimidated by that. It just is what it is. + +00:20:32.320 --> 00:20:33.540 +And if you spend some time there, + +00:20:33.540 --> 00:20:35.960 +you'll see how people generally communicate. + +00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:41.260 +Sometimes, there are a lot of people on + +00:20:41.260 --> 00:20:43.600 +EmacsDevil. It's a public mailing list. + +00:20:43.660 --> 00:20:46.240 +A lot of people just sign up to follow Emacs + +00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:48.860 +development. Sometimes they chime in. + +00:20:48.940 --> 00:20:50.820 +And I think this is in general a good thing. + +00:20:50.820 --> 00:20:53.300 +I think it should be a public mailing list. + +00:20:53.680 --> 00:21:00.220 +Sometimes this leads to weird situations from + +00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.400 +just a point of view as an Emacs maintainer, + +00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.080 +right? I mean, I try to say something and it + +00:21:07.080 --> 00:21:08.240 +doesn't always say, oh, + +00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:10.020 +he's the maintainer or whatever. + +00:21:10.080 --> 00:21:11.200 +So when I say something, + +00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.380 +it should carry a little bit more weight than + +00:21:13.380 --> 00:21:16.160 +some unknown person from the internet who has + +00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:18.300 +an opinion and decided to send it to + +00:21:18.740 --> 00:21:21.020 +EmacsDevil. So it's good to be a little bit + +00:21:21.020 --> 00:21:23.160 +aware of who is a little bit more involved + +00:21:23.160 --> 00:21:25.280 +with the project. I would check out the + +00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:27.100 +maintainers file. I would check, + +00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:31.000 +see in the Git log, do these people actually + +00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.300 +have any anything in core? + +00:21:33.580 --> 00:21:35.260 +And if not, maybe, you know, + +00:21:35.860 --> 00:21:38.660 +there, we won't really, + +00:21:39.100 --> 00:21:41.000 +even if they express an opinion very + +00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:42.720 +strongly, even if they're a little bit rude, + +00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:44.700 +maybe they're not even involved in Emacs + +00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:46.340 +development. I mean, often, + +00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:48.460 +that's the case we have some people, + +00:21:48.460 --> 00:21:49.900 +unfortunately, at times, + +00:21:50.340 --> 00:21:52.720 +we have random people from the internet come + +00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:54.720 +in on the mailing list and they're just a + +00:21:54.720 --> 00:21:56.780 +little bit rude, or they say an opinion + +00:21:57.740 --> 00:21:59.620 +that's not exactly helpful. + +00:22:00.060 --> 00:22:02.320 +And I think you need to be aware. + +00:22:02.320 --> 00:22:04.340 +I mean, these things happen in any forum, + +00:22:04.340 --> 00:22:07.740 +but it happens on EmacsDevO as well. + +00:22:07.800 --> 00:22:10.680 +So just be a little bit aware of who you're + +00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.540 +talking to, what people are doing. + +00:22:13.700 --> 00:22:15.880 +It can help to Check the archives, + +00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:18.460 +see who writes what, and so on. + +00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:23.080 +But it's not something that I think is a huge + +00:22:23.080 --> 00:22:24.220 +problem. It is just, again, + +00:22:24.220 --> 00:22:25.780 +something to be aware of. + +00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:28.040 +We have the new kind of communication + +00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:30.820 +guidelines in place, which basically says + +00:22:30.820 --> 00:22:33.740 +that you should be nice to people and stay + +00:22:33.740 --> 00:22:36.060 +focused on the technical problem, + +00:22:36.060 --> 00:22:38.300 +try to see things from another person's point + +00:22:38.300 --> 00:22:39.360 +of view, this kind of stuff. + +00:22:39.360 --> 00:22:42.140 +So we're really trying to be as inclusive as + +00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:46.820 +possible and just stay correct in general. + +00:22:46.820 --> 00:22:48.380 +And sometimes, I mean, + +00:22:48.380 --> 00:22:50.060 +not everyone, it's a public list. + +00:22:50.060 --> 00:22:52.440 +We moderate it, but not to a huge extent, + +00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:57.840 +right? So sometimes people get away with a + +00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:02.260 +little bit of perhaps stretching the + +00:23:02.260 --> 00:23:04.700 +boundaries of what might be included in the + +00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:06.500 +kind communication guidelines, + +00:23:08.040 --> 00:23:10.940 +sort of the fences and limitations of that. + +00:23:11.460 --> 00:23:13.940 +But I would just ignore that. + +00:23:13.940 --> 00:23:15.700 +Sometimes it happens that we, + +00:23:15.860 --> 00:23:17.160 +as happens in any forum, + +00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:19.440 +by the way, you just, we have these very big + +00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:21.760 +threads. We start discussing something else. + +00:23:21.760 --> 00:23:24.300 +Perhaps you send us a patch and it just + +00:23:24.320 --> 00:23:26.360 +devolves into us discussing something + +00:23:26.360 --> 00:23:28.680 +completely different. And of course I partake + +00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.440 +in that, not better than anyone else, + +00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.940 +but it just happens. I mean, + +00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:34.800 +it's not your fault. It's just what happens + +00:23:34.800 --> 00:23:37.200 +sometimes in forums, and don't mind that. + +00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.120 +And it's a little bit easier to do that in + +00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:41.680 +emails, because you just change the subject, + +00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:43.580 +and now it's supposed to be a different + +00:23:43.580 --> 00:23:45.780 +thread, but it comes as replies usually to + +00:23:45.780 --> 00:23:48.480 +you, which wouldn't happen perhaps in a + +00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.960 +different workflow. So it's something to be + +00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.300 +aware of as well. Another thing is that, + +00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:54.680 +of course, in written communication, + +00:23:55.080 --> 00:23:56.620 +tone doesn't always come across. + +00:23:57.980 --> 00:23:59.240 +If someone sounds negative, + +00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.280 +sometimes it's just them being neutral. + +00:24:01.460 --> 00:24:05.400 +Sometimes you get no replies. + +00:24:05.500 --> 00:24:07.120 +You send something, you get no replies. + +00:24:07.120 --> 00:24:09.220 +And this could mean, actually it could mean, + +00:24:09.880 --> 00:24:11.500 +yeah, what you said was uncontroversial. + +00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:12.980 +We think it was a good idea. + +00:24:13.660 --> 00:24:16.360 +No 1 replied to it because either someone + +00:24:16.360 --> 00:24:18.960 +else would reply or just there was no need to + +00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:20.640 +reply because, yeah, why not? + +00:24:21.580 --> 00:24:24.060 +So but if you do send a patch and you don't + +00:24:24.060 --> 00:24:26.280 +get an answer, wait. I mean, + +00:24:26.280 --> 00:24:29.380 +don't wait 1, 2 days. Maybe we're busy or + +00:24:29.380 --> 00:24:30.520 +we're sick or whatever. + +00:24:30.840 --> 00:24:32.800 +Wait 2 weeks. It's fine to just send it + +00:24:32.800 --> 00:24:34.940 +again. If you send the patch to EmacsDevil, + +00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:37.040 +send it to the bug mailing list, + +00:24:37.040 --> 00:24:39.260 +because we lose track of stuff on EmacsDevil. + +00:24:39.800 --> 00:24:41.560 +That's just the reality of it. + +00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:46.080 +So if you propose making a change and no 1 + +00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:48.340 +commented, feel free to ask us again if a + +00:24:48.340 --> 00:24:51.080 +patch would be welcome and we will clarify. + +00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:54.720 +Bug reports, unfortunately, + +00:24:54.780 --> 00:24:56.280 +if you get no answer, I mean, + +00:24:56.280 --> 00:24:59.740 +we do have a limited amount of time to work + +00:24:59.860 --> 00:25:02.360 +on bugs. If you're looking to get started in + +00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:05.520 +Emacs development, this is an excellent way + +00:25:05.740 --> 00:25:07.320 +to start getting involved. + +00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.960 +What I'd recommend is start looking into + +00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:11.420 +bugs. I'd install that bug, + +00:25:11.420 --> 00:25:13.860 +I'd see about the mailing workflow and set + +00:25:13.860 --> 00:25:15.800 +that up a little bit, or not. + +00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:17.960 +It's up to you. You can reply to an email + +00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.160 +without setting any of that stuff up. + +00:25:20.600 --> 00:25:22.480 +But just help us try out your bugs, + +00:25:22.540 --> 00:25:24.720 +send patches, do that type of stuff. + +00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:26.280 +I mean, that's an excellent way, + +00:25:26.280 --> 00:25:27.740 +and extremely welcome. + +00:25:27.740 --> 00:25:30.360 +We're so happy to see when people pick up bug + +00:25:30.360 --> 00:25:32.500 +reports that have been left by the wayside + +00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:34.580 +and just fix them, send us a patch, + +00:25:36.040 --> 00:25:37.520 +and we can just apply it. + +00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:40.360 +So that's really your starting point if you + +00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:43.600 +want to get involved in Emacs core + +00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:50.580 +development. I also want to say that be aware + +00:25:50.580 --> 00:25:54.020 +that you know Emacs is the editor of the GNU + +00:25:54.280 --> 00:25:56.820 +operating system and this makes the project + +00:25:56.820 --> 00:25:58.700 +political a little bit whether you like it or + +00:25:58.700 --> 00:26:01.380 +not. Luckily the you know the politics are + +00:26:01.560 --> 00:26:03.400 +limited enough that we can find broad + +00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:05.520 +agreement on it. So we want to promote, + +00:26:05.780 --> 00:26:08.420 +we want to create free software. + +00:26:08.860 --> 00:26:10.960 +That's sort of it. That's it. + +00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:13.740 +And there shouldn't be too much more to it, + +00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:15.600 +right? We want to rid the world of + +00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:19.700 +proprietary software as an evil thing. + +00:26:19.700 --> 00:26:21.920 +Ideally, all software should be free. + +00:26:23.000 --> 00:26:25.160 +But these are just the goals of the free + +00:26:25.160 --> 00:26:27.440 +software movement. So we're very strict with + +00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.660 +some things. We don't recommend non-free + +00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:31.320 +proprietary software. Of course, + +00:26:31.320 --> 00:26:33.180 +we have no problem mentioning Microsoft + +00:26:33.260 --> 00:26:35.140 +Windows because everyone knows that there's + +00:26:35.140 --> 00:26:39.280 +this obscure operating system developed in + +00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:41.760 +California that some people insist on using. + +00:26:42.040 --> 00:26:45.000 +We use, many of us use GNU plus Linux. + +00:26:45.060 --> 00:26:47.380 +Actually, some core developers happen to use + +00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:50.820 +exactly, you know, not GNU plus Linux, + +00:26:50.820 --> 00:26:52.600 +but that's fine as well, + +00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:54.820 +right? We take a little bit of a pragmatic + +00:26:54.860 --> 00:26:56.840 +view, but we don't wanna do, + +00:26:56.840 --> 00:26:59.020 +what we don't wanna do is promote like this + +00:26:59.020 --> 00:27:04.780 +small, unknown piece of non-free software and + +00:27:04.780 --> 00:27:08.400 +sort of help the non-free software in that + +00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.620 +way. That's where we try to draw the line, + +00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.760 +you know, in just expressing just a few + +00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.060 +words. So that's 1 thing. + +00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:21.620 +We're, I think, very pragmatic on this point, + +00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:24.900 +but we do try to follow the principle. + +00:27:25.240 --> 00:27:27.180 +We also require copyright assignment. + +00:27:27.700 --> 00:27:30.040 +And I think in general, + +00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:34.740 +the argument is that we require a copyright + +00:27:34.780 --> 00:27:38.940 +assignment, because that makes it easier to + +00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:43.440 +defend the legal status of the GNU Emacs + +00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:45.920 +source code. So if there's ever a legal + +00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.280 +battle, the idea is that if it's only 1 + +00:27:48.280 --> 00:27:50.260 +copyright holder and you have a GPL + +00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:54.140 +violation, i.e. Someone might change Emacs + +00:27:54.140 --> 00:27:55.820 +and then distribute it as proprietary + +00:27:56.100 --> 00:27:58.040 +software or something nasty like that, + +00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:00.620 +then we have an easier way of defending it in + +00:28:00.620 --> 00:28:02.780 +court if there is only 1 copyright holder. + +00:28:02.780 --> 00:28:04.840 +So we assigned copyright to the Free Software + +00:28:04.840 --> 00:28:09.460 +Foundation. And I think there, + +00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:12.600 +I mean, sometimes people oppose this for + +00:28:12.600 --> 00:28:13.660 +various reasons, you know, + +00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:15.720 +people see it as, you know, + +00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:16.880 +maybe some people might say, + +00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:17.860 +you know, it's ideological, + +00:28:18.040 --> 00:28:19.340 +you know, who goes, you know, + +00:28:19.340 --> 00:28:21.360 +the FSF goes too far with this. + +00:28:21.700 --> 00:28:23.860 +And, and, I mean, that's fine. + +00:28:23.860 --> 00:28:25.580 +You that's, that's an opinion. + +00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:28.320 +And the there, then other people are more + +00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:30.040 +practical, you know, it's just, + +00:28:30.040 --> 00:28:31.360 +It's a hassle, basically, + +00:28:31.360 --> 00:28:33.220 +we don't want to sign these papers. + +00:28:33.640 --> 00:28:35.580 +And I'm not really here to tell anyone that + +00:28:35.580 --> 00:28:37.160 +they're wrong. I've expressed my views on + +00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:40.780 +this in the past. But just for now, + +00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.660 +I'm just very practical for the purposes of + +00:28:43.660 --> 00:28:46.500 +this talk. So I signed the papers. + +00:28:46.580 --> 00:28:49.280 +It's Maybe it didn't take me many minutes. + +00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:51.900 +And in most cases, it shouldn't really. + +00:28:52.580 --> 00:28:55.000 +And it's something that I found worth doing, + +00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:58.580 +because that way I could focus on continuing + +00:28:58.580 --> 00:29:01.360 +to improve Emacs instead of discussing the + +00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:03.220 +finer points of copyright law. + +00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:05.280 +You could write patches and stuff, + +00:29:05.280 --> 00:29:06.680 +that kind of thing. So, + +00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:08.480 +I mean, this is something that trips people + +00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.100 +up and, you know, it's fine that people have + +00:29:11.320 --> 00:29:14.200 +different opinions on it and so on, + +00:29:14.200 --> 00:29:19.280 +but I think for now that's just something to + +00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:23.000 +be aware of. So that's, + +00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:26.120 +I think, I mean, there's much more that could + +00:29:26.120 --> 00:29:27.880 +be said. Ideally, I would like to have a + +00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:31.060 +practical part to this talk as well. + +00:29:32.020 --> 00:29:34.440 +But I wanted to say something about the + +00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.159 +packages in Emacs. Because as we know, + +00:29:37.159 --> 00:29:40.440 +I mean, Emacs is the, I can't remember what + +00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:41.740 +it says, it's like a visual, + +00:29:42.260 --> 00:29:43.780 +there's in the manual it says, + +00:29:43.780 --> 00:29:45.900 +oh, Emacs is an advanced text editor. + +00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:47.980 +It's visual, which, I mean, + +00:29:47.980 --> 00:29:50.280 +it's not ed, the whole Unix ed, + +00:29:50.280 --> 00:29:52.700 +so that's cool. It's also customizable, + +00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:56.180 +right? So that's always been a thing. + +00:29:57.800 --> 00:29:59.980 +And what makes Emacs so amazing. + +00:30:00.040 --> 00:30:01.820 +And some people described it as, + +00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:03.880 +I can't remember who said that there has been + +00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:09.440 +a Cambrian explosion of packages in Emacs. + +00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:10.440 +And I think that's true. + +00:30:10.440 --> 00:30:12.400 +I mean, if you look at something like Melpa, + +00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.760 +I think they have over 5,000 + +00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:16.220 +packages now. It's like truly impressive, + +00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:18.760 +just an immense amount of work and immense + +00:30:18.760 --> 00:30:22.320 +amount of packages. And really, + +00:30:22.860 --> 00:30:24.340 +this shows the strength, + +00:30:24.340 --> 00:30:26.600 +I think, of the Emacs community, + +00:30:26.680 --> 00:30:28.780 +of Emacs itself as an idea. + +00:30:29.060 --> 00:30:31.240 +And I think it's also just tremendous work + +00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:33.580 +that's been done by the maintainers. + +00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.040 +And they do get a lot of recognition for + +00:30:36.040 --> 00:30:38.900 +that. And rightly so, in my opinion. + +00:30:39.620 --> 00:30:41.920 +It's done so much, I think, + +00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.260 +for our community. The other package archive + +00:30:44.260 --> 00:30:46.340 +that we have is GNU-ELPA. + +00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:49.640 +And that's been enabled since when packages + +00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:51.000 +first got introduced back in, + +00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.160 +I think, Emacs, was it 23? + +00:30:55.520 --> 00:30:59.200 +And probably, I mean, the main thing why a + +00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:01.860 +package goes onto GNU Elpa is, + +00:31:01.860 --> 00:31:04.040 +you know, it should be installable out of the + +00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:07.580 +box. So, I mean, that's a big benefit in a + +00:31:07.580 --> 00:31:10.960 +sense. It's also a requirement for GNU Alpa + +00:31:10.960 --> 00:31:12.240 +that the copyright, again, + +00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.540 +just as GNU Emacs, the copyright is assigned + +00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:17.020 +to the Free Software Foundation. + +00:31:17.080 --> 00:31:19.940 +And some very hugely popular packages, + +00:31:20.020 --> 00:31:21.420 +like YaSnippet, for example, + +00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:25.060 +is on GNU Alpa. And we were discussing this + +00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:30.040 +just 2 months back. And Joe Tavora, + +00:31:30.060 --> 00:31:31.780 +I can't say his name, G-O-A-O, + +00:31:33.280 --> 00:31:36.100 +Tavora. He made the point that he's never + +00:31:36.140 --> 00:31:40.280 +seen a problem in any of his packages with + +00:31:40.280 --> 00:31:42.100 +copyright assignment in particular. + +00:31:42.100 --> 00:31:44.540 +It's never been a problem to get people to be + +00:31:44.540 --> 00:31:46.560 +involved in the development of those packages + +00:31:46.560 --> 00:31:48.220 +just because of the copyright assignment + +00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:50.640 +requirements. So I mean, + +00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:53.840 +that's his perspective on that. + +00:31:54.320 --> 00:32:00.480 +And I think it was worth relating his + +00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:06.500 +experience here. So we also have this new + +00:32:06.500 --> 00:32:08.500 +package archive called non-GNU-alpha, + +00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:12.880 +which is now enabled by default as well. + +00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:14.440 +I think for practical purposes, + +00:32:14.540 --> 00:32:16.880 +you could get into it a little bit more, + +00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:18.840 +you know, why we created non-NUELPA, + +00:32:19.940 --> 00:32:22.320 +and perhaps that's something we can discuss + +00:32:23.360 --> 00:32:26.240 +in the Q&A section. For practical purposes, + +00:32:26.380 --> 00:32:28.280 +the main thing to be aware of is, + +00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:30.980 +yes, we don't promote non-free software on + +00:32:30.980 --> 00:32:36.780 +there, And we also don't have the copyright + +00:32:36.780 --> 00:32:39.060 +assignment requirement. + +00:32:41.400 --> 00:32:43.820 +I think this is probably for new packages. + +00:32:43.940 --> 00:32:48.180 +It's generally better if they go to GNU Elpa, + +00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.220 +if there is any type of idea or ambition + +00:32:51.280 --> 00:32:53.460 +that, you know, at some point it would be + +00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:56.740 +good or it might be good to eventually have + +00:32:56.740 --> 00:32:58.900 +some type of functionality like this shipped + +00:32:58.900 --> 00:33:01.200 +with Emacs itself. So I think this is + +00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.020 +something that perhaps package authors could + +00:33:04.020 --> 00:33:07.340 +also be aware of, that occasionally we do + +00:33:07.340 --> 00:33:09.780 +bring in functionality from GNU Elpa into + +00:33:09.780 --> 00:33:12.180 +core Emacs because we feel that it should be + +00:33:12.440 --> 00:33:15.560 +better integrated with Emacs itself. + +00:33:16.420 --> 00:33:18.480 +So if I could give any type of + +00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:19.400 +recommendation, of course, + +00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.120 +you do. These are your packages, + +00:33:22.120 --> 00:33:25.520 +right? In an ideal world, + +00:33:25.520 --> 00:33:28.680 +we would only use this for legacy packages + +00:33:28.680 --> 00:33:30.240 +where people contributed in the past, + +00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.120 +but you didn't worry about the copyright + +00:33:32.120 --> 00:33:34.200 +assignment. But where possible, + +00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:37.480 +I think there is benefit in putting it on GNU + +00:33:37.540 --> 00:33:42.900 +Elpa. And I wanted to end a little bit on a + +00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.140 +more, you know, the more opinionated perhaps + +00:33:45.380 --> 00:33:47.260 +part of my talk and not just talk about + +00:33:47.260 --> 00:33:49.160 +processes. I see that I'm running out of + +00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:51.700 +time. So I will say Emacs is hackable. + +00:33:51.760 --> 00:33:54.520 +And I think that's a blessing and a curse. + +00:33:54.520 --> 00:33:56.340 +And if you think about something like, + +00:33:59.060 --> 00:34:01.100 +the types of choices that you can make, + +00:34:01.100 --> 00:34:03.040 +perhaps when you implement something, + +00:34:03.160 --> 00:34:06.680 +There are choices, different choices between + +00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:07.740 +something like common list, + +00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:09.440 +which is like bigger, more batteries + +00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:11.320 +included, and something like scheme, + +00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:12.239 +which is more minimal. + +00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:13.679 +And I think we have some of those, + +00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:16.280 +you know, this kind of tension also in the + +00:34:16.280 --> 00:34:18.159 +Emacs itself. What should be in Emacs core? + +00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:19.699 +Should we have a lean Emacs core? + +00:34:19.699 --> 00:34:21.800 +Should we have more stuff in Emacs core? + +00:34:22.360 --> 00:34:26.320 +And I think these are good discussions to + +00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.380 +have. And there are various challenges that + +00:34:29.380 --> 00:34:31.940 +are associated with each of those choices. + +00:34:32.540 --> 00:34:35.320 +I think what will never change is that Emacs + +00:34:35.320 --> 00:34:37.280 +is hackable. Emacs is customizable. + +00:34:37.500 --> 00:34:38.800 +This is the key strength. + +00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:40.960 +This is why we love and use Emacs. + +00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:41.820 +I think fundamentally, + +00:34:42.380 --> 00:34:44.280 +whether you do it a lot or not, + +00:34:44.380 --> 00:34:47.260 +this is what at core is bringing you that + +00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:49.179 +amazing user experience. + +00:34:50.739 --> 00:34:53.199 +However, the flip side of that sometimes is + +00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:56.280 +that it's so easy to hack Emacs so that we + +00:34:56.280 --> 00:34:58.520 +hack around bugs instead of fixing them. + +00:34:58.520 --> 00:35:00.540 +We do some tweak and our customers say, + +00:35:00.540 --> 00:35:01.720 +okay, this is a little bit broken, + +00:35:01.720 --> 00:35:03.560 +Let me just fix it. I'll put an advice on + +00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:05.700 +this function. I'll do this customization. + +00:35:06.500 --> 00:35:09.040 +Or we accept limitations in Emacs core. + +00:35:09.340 --> 00:35:12.100 +And I think it's fine. + +00:35:12.380 --> 00:35:13.760 +I mean, this will never change. + +00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.560 +That will always be core to what Emacs is, + +00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:20.140 +right? However, I think that the flip side of + +00:35:20.140 --> 00:35:22.500 +that is that I think sometimes we could be + +00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:26.760 +better at just taking those few extra steps + +00:35:26.820 --> 00:35:29.260 +to also make Emacs better itself and solve + +00:35:29.260 --> 00:35:31.680 +this for all users. And I think if we can + +00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:33.680 +build a little bit more of a culture like + +00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:35.460 +that, I mean, we already have that culture to + +00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:37.200 +a large extent, don't get me wrong, + +00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:39.620 +we do, but if we can get a little bit more of + +00:35:39.620 --> 00:35:41.320 +that culture, let's get that into core, + +00:35:41.320 --> 00:35:43.760 +let's get that problem fixed, + +00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:46.140 +that frustration. I can tell you that, + +00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:48.940 +I just started a new assignment at work, + +00:35:48.940 --> 00:35:51.420 +I already told you, so I'm going to write a + +00:35:51.420 --> 00:35:54.140 +lot of Python, okay? So I need to keep track + +00:35:54.140 --> 00:35:55.740 +of something called virtual environments, + +00:35:56.040 --> 00:35:58.260 +and that's just a way to install these + +00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.640 +dependencies just locally per directory or + +00:36:01.640 --> 00:36:03.420 +per repository kind of thing. + +00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:05.740 +And I've used various packages for that. + +00:36:05.740 --> 00:36:07.860 +There are like 4 packages, + +00:36:07.940 --> 00:36:10.560 +5 packages, maybe. And 1 is called VM, + +00:36:10.560 --> 00:36:11.740 +and 1 is called VirtualM, + +00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:13.640 +and 1 is called Python-VM. + +00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:16.980 +And now I'm using, you know, + +00:36:16.980 --> 00:36:18.100 +I'm using a different 1. + +00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:19.620 +And it's just a little bit, + +00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:22.160 +why doesn't this work out of the box in + +00:36:22.160 --> 00:36:25.680 +Emacs? Why? I don't think there's a really + +00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:28.640 +good fundamental good reason why something + +00:36:28.640 --> 00:36:30.460 +like that doesn't work in Emacs. + +00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.980 +So I think that's really, + +00:36:32.220 --> 00:36:35.220 +I mean, I'm sure there are other things like + +00:36:35.220 --> 00:36:37.280 +that, other fundamental features. + +00:36:37.740 --> 00:36:39.920 +Why is it that for the last 20 years, + +00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.740 +we've shipped Emacs with no PHP support out + +00:36:43.740 --> 00:36:47.660 +of the box? I mean, I'm not a PHP programmer. + +00:36:47.660 --> 00:36:51.020 +I don't really have a lot of love for PHP, + +00:36:51.020 --> 00:36:56.020 +let's say. To me, it's a very funny-looking + +00:36:57.180 --> 00:37:00.060 +language, but okay, still it's been very + +00:37:00.060 --> 00:37:02.060 +popular. Why haven't we supported it? + +00:37:02.120 --> 00:37:03.280 +I mean, it's just strange. + +00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:05.040 +You install Emacs on some machine, + +00:37:05.220 --> 00:37:07.260 +you open a PHP file, you get fundamental + +00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:09.160 +mode. It's not the best user experience, + +00:37:09.160 --> 00:37:12.600 +in my opinion. So I think there are some + +00:37:12.600 --> 00:37:15.480 +things where we really could do a little bit + +00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:20.200 +better. And I'm seeing this all the time. + +00:37:20.200 --> 00:37:22.500 +Just this week, this new assignment was + +00:37:22.500 --> 00:37:24.640 +interesting. There was this Emacs user. + +00:37:24.720 --> 00:37:26.980 +Turns out we have the exact same hack in both + +00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:29.860 +of our init files. So we had created the + +00:37:29.860 --> 00:37:32.140 +exact same mode for DIRED, + +00:37:32.140 --> 00:37:33.920 +actually, to hide dot files. + +00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:36.720 +You know, dot something is supposed to be + +00:37:36.720 --> 00:37:39.440 +hidden on a Unix system. + +00:37:40.240 --> 00:37:43.940 +So we had DERED hide dot files mode to just + +00:37:43.940 --> 00:37:47.100 +hide them. And why isn't that in DERED? + +00:37:47.100 --> 00:37:48.420 +Or should it be in DERED? + +00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:50.860 +Should it be a package on the new Elpa? + +00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.000 +Where should it be? Why is it just local + +00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.680 +hack? Should it be on a wiki somewhere? + +00:37:54.680 --> 00:37:56.740 +I mean, sometimes that's the correct answer. + +00:37:56.980 --> 00:37:59.060 +Sometimes the correct answer is, + +00:37:59.060 --> 00:38:00.420 +yes, it should be a package. + +00:38:00.780 --> 00:38:02.360 +Sometimes the correct answer is, + +00:38:02.360 --> 00:38:04.140 +yes, it should really be in core. + +00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.420 +So what I want to promote is more like, + +00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.900 +let's just take a step back and just ask + +00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:11.180 +yourself, what's the best solution if we look + +00:38:11.180 --> 00:38:12.240 +at the overall picture? + +00:38:12.240 --> 00:38:13.920 +Should I hack this into my configuration? + +00:38:14.600 --> 00:38:16.840 +In many cases, yes, that's the right thing to + +00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:19.540 +do. We don't want to proliferate just random + +00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.160 +solutions all over Emacs for no reason. + +00:38:22.540 --> 00:38:24.760 +But sometimes we want to fix it once and for + +00:38:24.760 --> 00:38:27.700 +all. We want to do that in core. + +00:38:27.880 --> 00:38:30.200 +So you could send stuff like that to us as + +00:38:30.200 --> 00:38:31.480 +patches or as packages. + +00:38:31.560 --> 00:38:34.340 +And we can discuss a little bit about where + +00:38:34.340 --> 00:38:36.420 +should we solve this? What's the right level + +00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:41.100 +of abstraction? I'm seeing that I'm running + +00:38:41.100 --> 00:38:43.620 +out of time. I had an Emacs wish list. + +00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:46.880 +Maybe we can take more of that in the Q&A. + +00:38:47.170 --> 00:38:49.226 +But I want to say, like, + +00:38:49.226 --> 00:38:50.460 +in VS Code, you just start VS Code. + +00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:51.660 +You open a Python file, + +00:38:51.660 --> 00:38:53.040 +and you get, like, hey, + +00:38:53.040 --> 00:38:54.560 +are you trying to use Python? + +00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:56.280 +Click here, install Python. + +00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:58.700 +You get all the nice things out of the box. + +00:38:59.180 --> 00:39:01.560 +And my argument is, why can't we have more of + +00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:03.880 +that in Emacs? I don't think it's necessarily + +00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.360 +hard, but it does take a little bit of work. + +00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:09.060 +The challenges here are more social, + +00:39:09.060 --> 00:39:10.880 +I think, than technical. + +00:39:10.900 --> 00:39:12.780 +And I think it's worth doing, + +00:39:12.780 --> 00:39:14.060 +because it's not just Python. + +00:39:14.060 --> 00:39:16.640 +It's just There are always these small things + +00:39:16.640 --> 00:39:18.900 +where it just really should work, + +00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:20.900 +and that would be a much better experience. + +00:39:20.900 --> 00:39:23.360 +And then you could customize not that thing + +00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:24.600 +that should just work, + +00:39:24.640 --> 00:39:27.140 +but you could customize more fun and + +00:39:27.140 --> 00:39:29.620 +exploratory things instead of people + +00:39:29.620 --> 00:39:31.720 +reinventing the wheel over and over again. + +00:39:31.720 --> 00:39:33.420 +So I'm very excited about what's happening in + +00:39:33.420 --> 00:39:35.280 +Emacs. I think we should be proud of what + +00:39:35.280 --> 00:39:37.360 +we've accomplished. It's so many things to + +00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:38.360 +many different people, + +00:39:38.360 --> 00:39:39.660 +an environment for hacking, + +00:39:40.040 --> 00:39:41.620 +just a productivity system. + +00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:44.020 +Other sees us as a different way of looking + +00:39:44.020 --> 00:39:45.360 +at computing, you know, + +00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.440 +the embodiment of the ideal of the Lisp + +00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:49.280 +machine if you want to talk big words and + +00:39:49.280 --> 00:39:50.660 +stuff like that. And of course, + +00:39:50.660 --> 00:39:53.320 +Emacs are all those things and so many more. + +00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:55.440 +And that's what makes Emacs so amazing. + +00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.780 +And in some sense, we should be care that + +00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:03.040 +people are satisfied with using lesser text + +00:40:03.040 --> 00:40:05.600 +editors. How could they be happy running + +00:40:05.600 --> 00:40:07.440 +that? I mean, I'm sure it's fine, + +00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.800 +but it sure as hell isn't Emacs. + +00:40:09.800 --> 00:40:12.340 +So don't we owe it to the world and to them + +00:40:12.340 --> 00:40:14.440 +and to ourselves to make a great Emacs. + +00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:16.120 +That will be my ending words. + +00:40:16.120 --> 00:40:18.020 +And I hope to see you all in the Q&A. + +00:40:18.120 --> 00:40:22.560 +Thank you all. And thank you so much, + +00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:24.360 +Stefan. That was a wonderful presentation. + +00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:27.280 +And I just want to give you the opportunity. + +00:40:27.340 --> 00:40:29.940 +You said that you perhaps had, + +00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:31.400 +Not the practical stuff, + +00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:33.280 +but you wanted to do a demo or something like + +00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:34.780 +this? What did you mention exactly? + +00:40:36.180 --> 00:40:38.460 +Yeah, we didn't have time really. + +00:40:38.740 --> 00:40:42.040 +Yes, I'm not sure. I didn't prepare anything + +00:40:42.040 --> 00:40:43.580 +so that we can do it live. + +00:40:43.620 --> 00:40:44.800 +But maybe for next time, + +00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:48.620 +I will do a demo. Don't hold me to it. + +00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:51.100 +Or someone else could. + +00:40:51.100 --> 00:40:52.540 +That would be really amazing. + +00:40:53.260 --> 00:40:54.020 +Right. Well, thank you, + +00:40:54.020 --> 00:40:56.820 +Stéphane. You've been already into so much + +00:40:56.820 --> 00:41:00.560 +detail of so many... So much of the intricacy + +00:41:01.780 --> 00:41:05.100 +of the maintenance. And as someone who's been + +00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:07.980 +95% of the time developing for Melpa, + +00:41:08.260 --> 00:41:11.040 +I feel like this talk was very geared to a + +00:41:11.040 --> 00:41:13.980 +lot of us who tend to experiment in this + +00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:16.400 +Cambrian stage of Emacs evolution, + +00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.620 +where we get to deploy a lot of creativity + +00:41:20.600 --> 00:41:24.020 +whilst also feeling pretty agile in a way we + +00:41:24.020 --> 00:41:25.580 +come up with solutions to problems. + +00:41:25.640 --> 00:41:29.240 +But you've won me over with your discussion + +00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:31.360 +about potentially moving some of this stuff + +00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.220 +to core. And I think this particularly + +00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.140 +resonated at the end with this tension that + +00:41:36.140 --> 00:41:38.660 +you feel about problems that you encounter. + +00:41:39.160 --> 00:41:40.760 +Do you fix them in Melpa? + +00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:42.040 +Do you fix them in core? + +00:41:42.040 --> 00:41:43.780 +Is it not something that is supposed to be an + +00:41:43.780 --> 00:41:46.560 +option? I love this tension and it's + +00:41:46.560 --> 00:41:48.040 +something that we've been exploring for the + +00:41:48.040 --> 00:41:49.780 +last 3 edition of Emacs Cons. + +00:41:49.780 --> 00:41:52.480 +It's really what is to be the interaction + +00:41:52.600 --> 00:41:55.660 +between this pool of very clever developers + +00:41:55.680 --> 00:41:58.100 +who are on Melpa but who are perhaps a little + +00:41:58.100 --> 00:42:00.880 +bit afraid of joining Core and the wonderful + +00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:02.860 +job that you do that, yes, + +00:42:02.980 --> 00:42:05.640 +seems archaic from the outside, + +00:42:05.860 --> 00:42:07.840 +but as you've been at length today in your + +00:42:07.840 --> 00:42:09.480 +presentation, is actually just a better way + +00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.780 +to work, a very pragmatic way to get a lot of + +00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:13.320 +work done. So, thank you so much for your + +00:42:13.320 --> 00:42:15.240 +presentation. Thank you, + +00:42:15.240 --> 00:42:20.740 +Leo. So, we have about 12 minutes now to go + +00:42:20.740 --> 00:42:22.950 +through as many questions as possible. + +00:42:22.950 --> 00:42:26.000 +You have obviously had a lot of questions + +00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.180 +throughout your presentation. + +00:42:27.660 --> 00:42:28.940 +Do you have access to the pad, + +00:42:28.940 --> 00:42:30.400 +or do you want me to share the question and + +00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:32.660 +feed them to you? Yes, + +00:42:32.660 --> 00:42:34.200 +could you start with sharing them? + +00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:36.000 +I'll see if I can get it on my screen. + +00:42:36.280 --> 00:42:39.640 +Sure, I'll do that. Please let me know if my + +00:42:39.720 --> 00:42:42.980 +microphone is clipping because my OBS setup + +00:42:42.980 --> 00:42:44.440 +sometimes is a little bit janky. + +00:42:44.440 --> 00:42:46.080 +But I'm going to try to read the questions + +00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:47.780 +for now. It's tipping, + +00:42:48.080 --> 00:42:51.980 +I can hear you okay. Okay, + +00:42:51.980 --> 00:42:54.400 +so bear with the clicking, + +00:42:54.400 --> 00:42:56.480 +we'll switch as soon as possible to Stefan + +00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.080 +reading the question, but I'll read the first + +00:42:58.080 --> 00:43:02.820 +1. Can you tell us some about your, + +00:43:02.860 --> 00:43:04.340 +can you tell us some more I assume, + +00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:06.160 +about your background with Emacs development + +00:43:06.160 --> 00:43:07.500 +and programming in general, + +00:43:07.580 --> 00:43:09.220 +your professional work possibly? + +00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:15.440 +Yeah, sure. Okay, I studied computer science + +00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:19.960 +at university. I started programming on a + +00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:23.960 +Commodore 64. I started with BASIC and then I + +00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:26.880 +did a couple of versions of BASIC as a kid. + +00:43:27.380 --> 00:43:31.540 +But then really things took off when I + +00:43:31.540 --> 00:43:34.240 +started using GNU Linux. + +00:43:34.300 --> 00:43:35.580 +I can't remember which year, + +00:43:35.580 --> 00:43:37.440 +maybe it was early 2000, + +00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:39.740 +something like that, late. + +00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.080 +No, it must've been before that actually, + +00:43:42.380 --> 00:43:44.120 +because I remember I was 14. + +00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:46.020 +Yeah, okay, so let's say 1999, + +00:43:46.500 --> 00:43:48.720 +1998, somewhere there around. + +00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:50.200 +Then I started with Perl, + +00:43:50.200 --> 00:43:52.620 +and I did Perl for a good long while. + +00:43:52.700 --> 00:43:55.460 +I learned C++, I learned C, + +00:43:55.680 --> 00:43:56.960 +I did all kinds of stuff, + +00:43:56.960 --> 00:43:58.640 +and then I went to university, + +00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:01.700 +computer science, and I've been working, + +00:44:01.700 --> 00:44:03.980 +you know, in various roles. + +00:44:04.160 --> 00:44:06.300 +Right now, I'm coding Python. + +00:44:06.980 --> 00:44:09.640 +Up until last Friday, I was writing firmware + +00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:12.319 +in C for a small microcontroller, + +00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.600 +which is pretty different than writing + +00:44:15.600 --> 00:44:17.060 +Python, that's for sure. + +00:44:17.220 --> 00:44:19.600 +So yeah, so that's a little bit about me. + +00:44:19.600 --> 00:44:21.860 +I got interested in free software, + +00:44:22.300 --> 00:44:24.720 +you know, also at a very young age. + +00:44:24.720 --> 00:44:26.320 +So, I mean, I've been following these, + +00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.120 +you know, ideological discussions and + +00:44:29.120 --> 00:44:31.560 +debates, read all this stuff by Richard + +00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:33.940 +Stallman and so on and so forth. + +00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:37.760 +But yeah, that's it. Great, + +00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:41.120 +thank you. I'll move on to the next question. + +00:44:41.120 --> 00:44:42.980 +You'll have to listen to me because if I + +00:44:42.980 --> 00:44:45.020 +start sharing my screen again, + +00:44:45.020 --> 00:44:46.320 +we're going to get some clicks. + +00:44:48.140 --> 00:44:50.680 +So the question. Do you think that 1 day + +00:44:50.680 --> 00:44:53.930 +there will be a native I'll start again, + +00:44:53.930 --> 00:44:54.079 +sorry. Do you think that 1 day there will be + +00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:54.440 +a native... I'll start again, + +00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:56.480 +sorry. Do you think that 1 day there will be + +00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.020 +a native graphical web browser in Emacs or is + +00:44:59.020 --> 00:45:00.540 +it kind of against its philosophy and + +00:45:00.540 --> 00:45:03.820 +architecture? So will we stick just with EWW + +00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:06.800 +and EAF or similar workaround tricks? + +00:45:08.640 --> 00:45:11.200 +So if, I don't know if people have seen, + +00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:12.740 +there is a talk by, I think, + +00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.080 +Perry Metzger, is that the name? + +00:45:15.080 --> 00:45:16.800 +Sorry if I got the name wrong. + +00:45:17.080 --> 00:45:18.360 +Perry Metzger, I think. + +00:45:18.720 --> 00:45:20.800 +It's like, he marks a text editor for the + +00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:22.640 +next 40 years. He makes an excellent point + +00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:24.720 +there that 1 of the things that we need to do + +00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:27.840 +is really get a proper HTML rendering in + +00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:30.260 +Emacs. It's like a dream at this point. + +00:45:30.260 --> 00:45:32.200 +No 1 is actively working on something like + +00:45:32.200 --> 00:45:34.240 +that. I think that, you know, + +00:45:34.240 --> 00:45:36.380 +there, first of all, you'd need to rewrite + +00:45:36.380 --> 00:45:39.520 +the display engine. So that's a big job. + +00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:41.140 +It is. I'm not saying, + +00:45:41.140 --> 00:45:42.540 +you know, it can't be done, + +00:45:43.040 --> 00:45:44.660 +but you need to start there. + +00:45:44.660 --> 00:45:47.560 +Right? Second of all, you need to think + +00:45:47.560 --> 00:45:50.460 +about, you know, with all the Emacs Lisp code + +00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:52.090 +out there, is really assuming, + +00:45:52.090 --> 00:45:54.960 +you know, 1 paradigm, which is that you have + +00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.720 +a square, and basically you have columns and + +00:45:57.720 --> 00:45:59.760 +you have rows, and everything is in there, + +00:45:59.760 --> 00:46:02.360 +even images, is basically in a column, + +00:46:02.540 --> 00:46:04.740 +you know, in a column on a row somewhere. + +00:46:05.380 --> 00:46:07.360 +Whereas, you know, when you just start doing + +00:46:07.360 --> 00:46:09.780 +the more web stuff and web rendering, + +00:46:10.120 --> 00:46:12.020 +you already have like a seaplane. + +00:46:12.040 --> 00:46:14.500 +You have different types of geometries that + +00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:16.880 +are possible. And what does it mean to go to + +00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:19.370 +the logical next line in that kind of sense? + +00:46:19.370 --> 00:46:21.420 +I mean these types of things I'm not saying + +00:46:21.420 --> 00:46:23.440 +it can't be done. I'm saying there are there + +00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:27.440 +are definitely some challenges there It would + +00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.280 +be amazing I mean, but we need someone with + +00:46:30.280 --> 00:46:33.020 +you know, the inclination and talent I think + +00:46:33.320 --> 00:46:37.680 +to work on that's a job posting if I've ever + +00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:40.200 +had 1. So good luck to whoever's willing to + +00:46:40.200 --> 00:46:42.100 +apply for this 1. I think it's a tough 1. + +00:46:43.180 --> 00:46:46.440 +It is, yes. Go on. Okay, + +00:46:46.560 --> 00:46:48.040 +do you happen to have the questions in front + +00:46:48.040 --> 00:46:50.320 +of you? Can I just read them to you so that + +00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.660 +you can also have a feedback in front of you? + +00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:56.680 +Yes, I have the pad here. + +00:46:57.260 --> 00:46:58.860 +Okay, cool. So I'll read the next question + +00:46:58.860 --> 00:47:00.260 +and this way I don't have to worry too much + +00:47:00.260 --> 00:47:02.320 +about me butchering every word in the + +00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:04.540 +sentence. So, Emacs development and + +00:47:04.540 --> 00:47:06.460 +communication still is very much focused on + +00:47:06.460 --> 00:47:08.640 +email mailing lists. I like this, + +00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.380 +but what do you think about introducing other + +00:47:10.380 --> 00:47:12.320 +channels for talking to users, + +00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.140 +like the Emacs project community could set up + +00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:17.120 +a master on instance of its own, + +00:47:17.120 --> 00:47:20.280 +for instance? I think from the point of view + +00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:21.760 +of the Emacs core team, + +00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.860 +we don't really have a lot of resources or + +00:47:23.860 --> 00:47:25.960 +people inclined to be working on stuff like + +00:47:25.960 --> 00:47:27.880 +that. But I mean, there is so much going on. + +00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:29.360 +Emacs is a very, you know, + +00:47:30.420 --> 00:47:32.580 +It's a big community, frankly, + +00:47:32.580 --> 00:47:34.500 +right? So people working on emacs.com, + +00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:37.400 +there are people in the IRC channel, + +00:47:37.500 --> 00:47:39.200 +the emacs IRC channel, + +00:47:39.400 --> 00:47:40.820 +there's the emacs subreddit. + +00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.280 +And I mean, people are doing an incredible + +00:47:43.380 --> 00:47:45.480 +job. And I think if people wanna do more + +00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:46.400 +stuff like that, I mean, + +00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:48.840 +Don't wait for Argo, just go for it. + +00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:54.340 +Great. Moving on to the next question. + +00:47:54.340 --> 00:47:56.520 +Sorry, I'm not commenting anymore because we + +00:47:56.520 --> 00:47:58.180 +have so many questions and I'd love for you + +00:47:58.180 --> 00:48:00.260 +to answer as many people as possible because + +00:48:00.260 --> 00:48:02.540 +we have about 6 minutes technically, + +00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:04.820 +but we can go perhaps a little bit over. + +00:48:05.080 --> 00:48:06.220 +If you have the time, Stefan, + +00:48:06.220 --> 00:48:08.680 +though. Yeah. Okay, great. + +00:48:09.340 --> 00:48:11.140 +What are some features or packages you'd like + +00:48:11.140 --> 00:48:12.540 +to see developed by the community? + +00:48:12.560 --> 00:48:15.560 +We've already talked about the native HTTP + +00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:17.620 +display, but do you have any others? + +00:48:19.540 --> 00:48:22.080 +So, I mean, developed by the community, + +00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:23.240 +it depends what you mean. + +00:48:23.240 --> 00:48:27.720 +So do you mean sending stuff that people + +00:48:27.720 --> 00:48:29.720 +could be working on in general? + +00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.320 +I think for now, like let's say the roadmap, + +00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:35.140 +I'll just give some of the things that I + +00:48:35.140 --> 00:48:36.940 +think should happen right now and that I + +00:48:36.940 --> 00:48:39.060 +would love for people to send patches for. + +00:48:39.060 --> 00:48:41.120 +That's what I'm gonna be answering because + +00:48:41.120 --> 00:48:42.860 +that's what I think I can answer. + +00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.220 +Tree-sitter is a new thing, + +00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:48.620 +right? Improving and working on new modes + +00:48:48.860 --> 00:48:50.040 +for, you know, TreeSitter, + +00:48:50.200 --> 00:48:52.860 +it's not very hard. I think many people get + +00:48:52.900 --> 00:48:55.560 +into it and make sure to integrate them in + +00:48:55.560 --> 00:48:57.540 +Emacs core. I think that would be, + +00:48:58.140 --> 00:49:00.140 +I mean, on my wishlist. + +00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:01.960 +The other thing that is that we've asked for + +00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:03.740 +someone perhaps with a little bit more + +00:49:03.740 --> 00:49:05.940 +experience, I think, but working on + +00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:09.080 +refactoring capabilities in Emacs and a more + +00:49:09.080 --> 00:49:11.320 +general framework, I think, + +00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:13.680 +for that. There are probably many more ideas + +00:49:13.780 --> 00:49:15.300 +that I could give people, + +00:49:15.300 --> 00:49:17.720 +but those would be the 2 big ones, + +00:49:17.720 --> 00:49:20.140 +I think, that are also very uncontroversial. + +00:49:22.360 --> 00:49:23.960 +It's funny because for me, + +00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.760 +I don't think refactoring would count as a + +00:49:26.760 --> 00:49:29.760 +feature, but it's so vital to allowing + +00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:31.780 +further features to be developed. + +00:49:31.780 --> 00:49:34.160 +Otherwise, I remember the way Org Mode used + +00:49:34.160 --> 00:49:36.300 +to be before we had Org Element and stuff + +00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:38.940 +like this. It was really complicated to write + +00:49:38.940 --> 00:49:41.200 +any kind of parsing stuff for it. + +00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:42.340 +And now that we've got it, + +00:49:42.340 --> 00:49:44.080 +it just opened up a world of possibility + +00:49:44.180 --> 00:49:46.160 +where parsing an Org Mode file is just made + +00:49:46.160 --> 00:49:48.280 +so much easier. So I think that's a wonderful + +00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:49.620 +answer because it goes, + +00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:52.080 +it's multi-layered as you would expect from + +00:49:52.080 --> 00:49:53.920 +something that concerns the whole of Emacs. + +00:49:55.800 --> 00:49:57.160 +Moving on to the next question. + +00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.960 +What is the hardest decision being made + +00:49:59.960 --> 00:50:02.480 +within Emacs dev for the last 3 years. + +00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:04.960 +I'm not sure, is it the decision in the last + +00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:07.480 +3 years or I'll let you interpret the + +00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:08.760 +question however you want. + +00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:10.960 +Okay, well, I'll say this. + +00:50:11.640 --> 00:50:14.220 +I started in August and I haven't had any + +00:50:14.220 --> 00:50:16.920 +really hard decisions so far. + +00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.540 +So good news. Maybe Eli will have more for + +00:50:20.540 --> 00:50:22.820 +the last 3 years. Keep it simple. + +00:50:25.240 --> 00:50:28.660 +Thanks. Cool. Next question. + +00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:31.920 +Any plans to integrate XWM into core? + +00:50:31.940 --> 00:50:34.400 +Emacs is a really good Winters manager. + +00:50:34.780 --> 00:50:38.080 +That's super cool. I think EXWM is cool. + +00:50:38.100 --> 00:50:40.140 +I think they need to upgrade to Wayland + +00:50:40.260 --> 00:50:41.880 +somehow and that's not clear yet, + +00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:44.880 +but you know, we don't have any current plans + +00:50:44.880 --> 00:50:48.900 +to integrate it, no. Right, + +00:50:49.020 --> 00:50:51.600 +Next question. Do you think it is a good idea + +00:50:51.600 --> 00:50:53.540 +to choose Org Mode for writing documentation + +00:50:53.680 --> 00:50:57.740 +instead of tech info? I think that whatever + +00:50:57.740 --> 00:50:59.680 +we do, it should be the people that are + +00:50:59.680 --> 00:51:01.760 +working on the documentation that should make + +00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:03.420 +that choice. Currently we have, + +00:51:03.420 --> 00:51:05.920 +I think, Modus themes and Org Mode itself is + +00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.060 +writing their documentation in Org Mode, + +00:51:08.080 --> 00:51:10.940 +that's fine by me. It has some drawbacks, + +00:51:10.960 --> 00:51:13.440 +it has some benefits, but most documentation + +00:51:13.580 --> 00:51:14.840 +is still in tech info. + +00:51:15.240 --> 00:51:17.360 +Maybe we'd need to replace that at some + +00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:19.840 +point, I don't know. But for now, + +00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.280 +that's what people know and use. + +00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:24.280 +And if you find that as a barrier to + +00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:25.600 +contribute to Emacs, I mean, + +00:51:25.600 --> 00:51:27.420 +just really write it as plain text. + +00:51:27.540 --> 00:51:29.380 +We'll be happy to help you with the markup. + +00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:30.280 +It's a little bit, you know, + +00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.760 +finicky and stuff like that. + +00:51:33.340 --> 00:51:35.060 +Great. Thanks for that. + +00:51:35.620 --> 00:51:38.000 +Next question. What do you plan to work on in + +00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:39.360 +Emacs Core in the future? + +00:51:40.460 --> 00:51:42.660 +I'm a little bit hesitant to reply to that. + +00:51:42.660 --> 00:51:43.740 +Of course I have ideas. + +00:51:43.740 --> 00:51:45.760 +Of course there are projects that I'm working + +00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:47.640 +on. However, if I say it here, + +00:51:47.640 --> 00:51:48.480 +I feel like, you know, + +00:51:48.480 --> 00:51:51.240 +then you'll hold me to it later and come ask, + +00:51:51.300 --> 00:51:52.480 +where is that feature? + +00:51:52.640 --> 00:51:55.180 +So I'll just say there is plenty of stuff + +00:51:55.180 --> 00:51:57.340 +that I'm working on, and if you want to know + +00:51:57.340 --> 00:51:58.780 +some of the stuff that I have been working + +00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:00.040 +on, check the Git log. + +00:52:00.060 --> 00:52:02.400 +I think that's just really as much as I want + +00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:05.040 +to say about that right now. + +00:52:05.660 --> 00:52:07.360 +You've added folks to just look at the path + +00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:09.620 +with the changelog and that's all you need. + +00:52:11.600 --> 00:52:13.340 +All right, moving on to the next question. + +00:52:14.020 --> 00:52:16.120 +What do you use Emacs for in your life other + +00:52:16.120 --> 00:52:17.580 +than working on Emacs itself? + +00:52:18.080 --> 00:52:21.060 +Oh shit. So the big thing is programming, + +00:52:21.140 --> 00:52:24.020 +right? Now I work as a programmer. + +00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:29.280 +But in general, I use org mode heavily. + +00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:30.780 +I use it for all my writing. + +00:52:30.820 --> 00:52:33.460 +I use it to write, prepare this talk. + +00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:35.360 +I use it as a productivity system. + +00:52:35.380 --> 00:52:41.980 +I use it for emails. I use it as an RSS + +00:52:41.980 --> 00:52:44.480 +reader. I do most of my computing. + +00:52:44.760 --> 00:52:47.040 +I also have Firefox. So it's like Emacs and + +00:52:47.040 --> 00:52:48.820 +Firefox for some reason. + +00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:51.900 +I do read documentation in Emacs as well in + +00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:58.440 +you, but yeah. Great. I'm still, + +00:52:59.180 --> 00:53:00.720 +I do very much the same thing with you. + +00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:02.040 +Like You've described exactly what I do. + +00:53:02.040 --> 00:53:02.960 +I work as a programmer, + +00:53:02.960 --> 00:53:04.640 +I use Augment for a lot of stuff, + +00:53:04.640 --> 00:53:06.340 +and I think that describes a whole lot of + +00:53:06.340 --> 00:53:08.100 +people currently watching the stream. + +00:53:09.380 --> 00:53:10.680 +Moving on to the next question. + +00:53:10.840 --> 00:53:12.740 +What could we do in order to make Emacs more + +00:53:12.740 --> 00:53:14.280 +attractive for younger users? + +00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:17.940 +This is an amazing question and I feel wholly + +00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:20.720 +unprepared to answer this. + +00:53:21.180 --> 00:53:24.180 +Probably more introductory material aimed at + +00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:26.580 +that age group. What do you mean by younger + +00:53:26.580 --> 00:53:28.740 +users? You know what would be really cool if + +00:53:28.740 --> 00:53:30.740 +you had an Emacs for kids project? + +00:53:31.020 --> 00:53:32.060 +That would be amazing. + +00:53:32.680 --> 00:53:34.920 +I'm not sure if that's what people are + +00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.880 +thinking about, but yeah, + +00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:39.780 +that's about what I can say for now. + +00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:43.320 +Good question. It is a very good question, + +00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:45.880 +like it comes back always to a key topic in + +00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:47.720 +EmacsConf, which is, how do we get more + +00:53:47.720 --> 00:53:49.360 +people to join us? Because it's a wonderful + +00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:51.760 +community. And how do we onboard people who + +00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.220 +are not programmers or people who are younger + +00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:56.720 +than the average Joe coming in those + +00:53:57.120 --> 00:54:01.560 +meetings? There's this Excellent article by + +00:54:01.560 --> 00:54:05.960 +Paul Graham, I think, where he was describing + +00:54:06.140 --> 00:54:09.140 +how they used Emacs as the sort of customer + +00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:11.520 +service system. They built the customer + +00:54:11.520 --> 00:54:13.940 +service system for the early days of Amazon + +00:54:14.700 --> 00:54:17.200 +in Emacs Lisp. And then they switched and all + +00:54:17.200 --> 00:54:18.680 +the employees were sad. + +00:54:18.680 --> 00:54:21.680 +So definitely there's more stuff that could + +00:54:21.680 --> 00:54:25.160 +be done in Emacs and be done better in Emacs. + +00:54:25.240 --> 00:54:27.440 +So for sure, if people want to explore more + +00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:28.880 +stuff like that, that's amazing. + +00:54:29.720 --> 00:54:32.040 +Yeah. And for people who weren't around + +00:54:32.040 --> 00:54:33.740 +earlier today, we've had a presentation about + +00:54:33.740 --> 00:54:36.820 +how to get computer science students to use + +00:54:36.860 --> 00:54:41.100 +Emacs and trying to provide as much + +00:54:41.100 --> 00:54:43.500 +information and as much tutorial as needed + +00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:45.480 +for them to understand what is the philosophy + +00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.420 +behind Emacs and how it influences the way + +00:54:48.420 --> 00:54:49.540 +you work and so forth. + +00:54:49.540 --> 00:54:51.420 +So you might want to revisit this discussion. + +00:54:51.420 --> 00:54:53.400 +And we also have plenty of talks talking + +00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:57.720 +about this issue. And I can just add that I + +00:54:57.720 --> 00:55:00.320 +think it's very important for us as a + +00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:03.120 +community to just be enthusiastic to get more + +00:55:03.120 --> 00:55:04.640 +people involved. Because I mean, + +00:55:04.640 --> 00:55:06.660 +look, there's this meme where it's like, + +00:55:06.660 --> 00:55:08.620 +I use Arch Linux, by the way, + +00:55:08.620 --> 00:55:10.020 +I use Arch, by the way. + +00:55:10.080 --> 00:55:12.380 +And for some reason, people using Arch keep + +00:55:12.380 --> 00:55:14.080 +telling you that they're using Arch. + +00:55:14.600 --> 00:55:16.160 +That's fine. Use whatever you want. + +00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:18.260 +It's free software, I don't care. + +00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:21.900 +I think if you look at Vim users, + +00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:23.440 +they're very almost militant, + +00:55:23.540 --> 00:55:25.780 +oh, we're Vim, and Vim is the thing. + +00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:27.480 +And Emacs users sometimes, + +00:55:27.700 --> 00:55:29.960 +and it's fine. We take a bit of a more + +00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:31.160 +laid-back approach. We're like, + +00:55:31.160 --> 00:55:32.720 +yeah, I use Emacs, you use Vim, + +00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:35.320 +whatever. And that's fine. + +00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:36.820 +I mean, that's the correct approach, + +00:55:36.820 --> 00:55:38.480 +I think. You should respect what people want + +00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:40.840 +to use. I don't care that people use VS Code + +00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:42.540 +or whatever. I'm not going to use that + +00:55:42.540 --> 00:55:43.940 +because it's too limiting. + +00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:45.780 +It's not really a workable environment. + +00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:48.620 +But I think it's OK to be enthusiastic. + +00:55:48.740 --> 00:55:51.360 +I think it's okay to talk about that type of + +00:55:51.360 --> 00:55:54.100 +enthusiasm and anything that can help + +00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:56.880 +increase the enthusiasm around Emacs can only + +00:55:56.880 --> 00:56:01.100 +help the longevity of Emacs. + +00:56:02.520 --> 00:56:04.280 +I agree and that's also 1 of the key + +00:56:04.280 --> 00:56:05.340 +objectives of EmacsConf. + +00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:07.660 +It's about bringing a lot of amazing people + +00:56:07.660 --> 00:56:09.100 +to come talk, like you, + +00:56:09.140 --> 00:56:11.400 +about stuff that is very dear to you. + +00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:14.180 +And it's very tangible how much you care, + +00:56:14.180 --> 00:56:15.920 +all of you, about what you're presenting. + +00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:18.560 +And it's amazing to put all of you people on + +00:56:18.560 --> 00:56:20.800 +just 48 hours talking about all of this and + +00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:22.920 +then creating so much content for people to + +00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.480 +watch. And I think it's really helping the + +00:56:24.480 --> 00:56:28.140 +enthusiasm to live on and to gather a little + +00:56:28.140 --> 00:56:29.660 +more snow as it comes down. + +00:56:29.920 --> 00:56:31.720 +Yeah, I watch you Max Conf every year. + +00:56:31.720 --> 00:56:33.460 +I think it's a lot of fun. + +00:56:34.300 --> 00:56:37.360 +Thank you. I'll take the compliment for + +00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:38.620 +everyone else in the team. + +00:56:39.620 --> 00:56:41.120 +We're going to go a little bit longer with + +00:56:41.120 --> 00:56:42.800 +the Q&A because we still have a lot of + +00:56:42.800 --> 00:56:44.480 +questions and if Stéphane is still willing to + +00:56:44.480 --> 00:56:48.160 +answer, I'm still willing to not go too bad + +00:56:48.160 --> 00:56:49.740 +to hear a lot more of it. + +00:56:49.740 --> 00:56:50.580 +Yeah, for me it's fine. + +00:56:50.580 --> 00:56:55.760 +I have time. Great. So I think I've done this + +00:56:55.760 --> 00:56:57.460 +question. So, all right. + +00:56:58.080 --> 00:57:00.060 +How are we going to make sure that a cool + +00:57:00.060 --> 00:57:01.960 +idea is going to pass it through for the next + +00:57:01.960 --> 00:57:04.100 +generation, let's say 20 years later, + +00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:05.860 +the generation still have the good knowledge + +00:57:05.860 --> 00:57:09.940 +we have today. Yeah, so I mean, + +00:57:09.940 --> 00:57:12.840 +if you think about what does EMAX need to + +00:57:12.840 --> 00:57:15.180 +have staying power, so in general, + +00:57:15.180 --> 00:57:17.020 +they say, you know, if if when you start a + +00:57:17.020 --> 00:57:19.340 +company, if you have a company for 1 year, + +00:57:19.340 --> 00:57:20.220 +then in all likelihood, + +00:57:20.220 --> 00:57:21.820 +you're going to have it for 2 years because, + +00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:23.680 +you know, it's just so if you've had Emacs + +00:57:23.680 --> 00:57:25.840 +for 4 years, I'm saying that we're going to + +00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:27.980 +have Emacs for the next 4 years as well. + +00:57:27.980 --> 00:57:30.540 +Just based on that, I'm not sure the logic + +00:57:30.540 --> 00:57:32.200 +holds up, but you know, + +00:57:32.440 --> 00:57:34.320 +how does Emacs stay relevant? + +00:57:34.340 --> 00:57:35.500 +I think is the question. + +00:57:35.500 --> 00:57:38.400 +Well, I think we need to continue working on + +00:57:38.520 --> 00:57:41.840 +all the types of exploratory work that people + +00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:43.820 +are doing in the community. + +00:57:43.820 --> 00:57:45.720 +I think there is fundamental stuff that needs + +00:57:45.720 --> 00:57:47.720 +to be done. I mean, if people want to work + +00:57:47.720 --> 00:57:49.400 +on, you know, web rendering and Emacs, + +00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:50.240 +maybe that's the next, + +00:57:50.240 --> 00:57:53.240 +you know, revolutionary step that we need + +00:57:53.240 --> 00:57:55.320 +that could, you know, really showcase what + +00:57:55.320 --> 00:57:57.640 +Emacs, you know, as, you know, + +00:57:57.640 --> 00:58:00.620 +an idea, even if not Emacs as a software + +00:58:00.620 --> 00:58:01.960 +could be and, you know, + +00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:05.000 +Because there is huge potential in the idea + +00:58:05.000 --> 00:58:07.100 +as such. So maybe that's something. + +00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:09.600 +But I mean, from the point of view of core + +00:58:09.600 --> 00:58:11.840 +development, I think we need to just continue + +00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:15.040 +working on the fundamental technologies. + +00:58:15.260 --> 00:58:17.980 +1 thing that I would like to eventually see + +00:58:17.980 --> 00:58:19.700 +is a better garbage collector. + +00:58:19.900 --> 00:58:22.280 +We've talked about that for a long time, + +00:58:22.280 --> 00:58:25.140 +but I mean, we need someone to do the job + +00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:27.980 +really. It's not very easy. + +00:58:27.980 --> 00:58:29.780 +It's very hard, actually. + +00:58:31.100 --> 00:58:34.000 +So just continues working on stuff like that, + +00:58:34.000 --> 00:58:35.180 +continue with the exploration, + +00:58:35.800 --> 00:58:40.260 +continue using and being excited about Emacs. + +00:58:40.260 --> 00:58:43.180 +I think that's the best guarantee that we + +00:58:43.180 --> 00:58:45.800 +have. Yeah, and perhaps to echo something + +00:58:45.800 --> 00:58:46.780 +that you said earlier, + +00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:47.960 +the tools that you're using, + +00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:49.920 +like the emails, they've been around forever, + +00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:51.100 +they will be around forever. + +00:58:51.500 --> 00:58:53.480 +This pragmatic stance on the tools that + +00:58:53.480 --> 00:58:56.240 +you're using, they might look stayed from the + +00:58:56.240 --> 00:58:58.880 +outside, but ultimately they are what permits + +00:58:59.220 --> 00:59:02.280 +a sense of longevity to any kind of project + +00:59:03.300 --> 00:59:05.460 +you embark upon. Also, + +00:59:05.460 --> 00:59:07.260 +in a sense, I think that the expectations + +00:59:07.740 --> 00:59:09.320 +might be changing in the sense that, + +00:59:09.320 --> 00:59:12.820 +you know, when I started using GNU Linux, + +00:59:12.980 --> 00:59:15.060 +you know what the first thing I did was, + +00:59:15.060 --> 00:59:16.960 +because I couldn't get Xorg to run. + +00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:19.040 +So the first thing you had to do was you had + +00:59:19.040 --> 00:59:20.820 +to compile your own Linux kernel. + +00:59:20.820 --> 00:59:22.960 +So you sit there and make manuconfig and + +00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.880 +you'll like, try to read it and you've never + +00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.320 +done anything like this before. + +00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.800 +You know, I was just a kid. + +00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:29.540 +I had never been at this kind of, + +00:59:29.540 --> 00:59:31.560 +you know, whatever. So I had to start with + +00:59:31.560 --> 00:59:34.200 +that. And then you have to write the X or + +00:59:34.200 --> 00:59:36.100 +configuration file. And I had the patience + +00:59:36.100 --> 00:59:37.100 +for that. But nowadays, + +00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:38.600 +people have different expectations. + +00:59:38.740 --> 00:59:40.460 +You just install something, + +00:59:40.640 --> 00:59:42.720 +and it works. And we need to keep that in + +00:59:42.720 --> 00:59:45.280 +mind as well. So that's why I keep pushing as + +00:59:45.280 --> 00:59:48.720 +1 of my big things. We need to build a more + +00:59:48.740 --> 00:59:51.180 +cohesive experience out of the box. + +00:59:51.180 --> 00:59:52.540 +Of course, that can be customizable. + +00:59:52.940 --> 00:59:55.240 +You shouldn't shoehorn anything in just for + +00:59:55.240 --> 00:59:58.760 +the sake of it. But you could get some things + +00:59:58.940 --> 01:00:00.920 +a little bit more for free. + +01:00:01.220 --> 01:00:03.080 +And maybe some of us that have our own + +01:00:03.080 --> 01:00:04.780 +configs and we've been doing this for you + +01:00:04.780 --> 01:00:07.720 +know, 2, 05:10, even 20 years, + +01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:09.660 +we could also see, you know, + +01:00:09.660 --> 01:00:11.640 +from the point of view of a new user that + +01:00:11.640 --> 01:00:13.780 +just installs VS Code and then they click, + +01:00:13.780 --> 01:00:15.680 +yes I use Python, yes I use that, + +01:00:15.680 --> 01:00:18.840 +and then it just automatically works. + +01:00:19.200 --> 01:00:20.600 +You know what I mean? I mean, + +01:00:20.600 --> 01:00:24.140 +then could we get closer to that perhaps a + +01:00:24.140 --> 01:00:26.060 +little bit? I think that would also help. + +01:00:26.760 --> 01:00:28.700 +Yeah, I think that's what we call the + +01:00:28.700 --> 01:00:30.580 +configuration wizard. And we were talking + +01:00:30.580 --> 01:00:32.520 +about this, I think, a couple of years ago at + +01:00:32.520 --> 01:00:34.200 +EmacsConf. I can't remember if it was with + +01:00:34.200 --> 01:00:35.740 +Adam in the chat. Adam, + +01:00:35.740 --> 01:00:38.240 +I mean Alpha Papa, or if it was with Bastien, + +01:00:38.240 --> 01:00:40.440 +but I remember the idea cropping off. + +01:00:40.440 --> 01:00:42.520 +Like, it's either you get a tutorial for + +01:00:42.520 --> 01:00:43.520 +Emacs, a proper tutorial, + +01:00:43.520 --> 01:00:45.640 +or you get a wizard, or you get both, + +01:00:45.640 --> 01:00:47.520 +and then all is right for the world. + +01:00:47.520 --> 01:00:49.420 +But definitely cool ideas being evoked. + +01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.280 +I'm gonna say I need to decree the time when + +01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:54.440 +we finish because for me it is 11.15 + +01:00:55.080 --> 01:00:59.300 +p.m. And I think my co-organizers are also + +01:00:59.300 --> 01:01:01.680 +willing to end the day and go rest because + +01:01:01.680 --> 01:01:03.540 +we've got another day to go tomorrow. + +01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:06.280 +So how about we take 3 minutes and 30 seconds + +01:01:06.280 --> 01:01:08.300 +to try to answer a little bit more succinctly + +01:01:08.560 --> 01:01:09.780 +the questions we've got left. + +01:01:09.780 --> 01:01:10.940 +How does that sound, Stefan? + +01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:15.200 +Sounds great. Cool, so I'll start reading the + +01:01:15.200 --> 01:01:17.140 +questions then that we've got left. + +01:01:18.340 --> 01:01:20.840 +So this 1 we've got. If you're willing to + +01:01:20.840 --> 01:01:22.360 +discuss it, what do you think about the + +01:01:22.360 --> 01:01:24.720 +recent controversy about use of CLLib in + +01:01:24.720 --> 01:01:29.980 +Emacs call code? Am I willing to discuss + +01:01:29.980 --> 01:01:35.960 +that? I have said my opinion on Emacs, + +01:01:36.420 --> 01:01:40.580 +Devel, I think. And I think I understand, + +01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:44.820 +I think, the viewpoints of both sides in that + +01:01:44.820 --> 01:01:46.720 +discussion. It is true that some things, + +01:01:46.720 --> 01:01:49.280 +I mean, we have to think about that. + +01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:50.340 +There is a real problem, + +01:01:50.340 --> 01:01:53.520 +I think, when we have 3 different APIs for + +01:01:53.520 --> 01:01:55.140 +doing the same thing in Emacs. + +01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:57.080 +And can we make that a little bit better? + +01:01:57.280 --> 01:01:59.280 +I mean, perhaps we could, + +01:01:59.760 --> 01:02:04.040 +right? So that's about as much as I'd like to + +01:02:04.040 --> 01:02:06.940 +say. Fair enough. I would have also accepted + +01:02:06.940 --> 01:02:09.160 +that CL loops are ugly to write and they + +01:02:09.160 --> 01:02:10.320 +don't feel very lispy. + +01:02:10.320 --> 01:02:12.040 +But I'll take your answer as well. + +01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:15.360 +Yeah, some people think that. + +01:02:15.660 --> 01:02:18.400 +I understand that position as well. + +01:02:19.200 --> 01:02:21.220 +Right. Okay, next question. + +01:02:21.260 --> 01:02:23.100 +When we find a bug in our Emacs, + +01:02:23.100 --> 01:02:25.200 +do we need to try to replicate it on our side + +01:02:25.200 --> 01:02:26.780 +version, on our SID version, + +01:02:26.780 --> 01:02:29.340 +sorry, then update all the usual list package + +01:02:29.340 --> 01:02:31.480 +we use, and if we succeed to replicate the + +01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:33.340 +bug in this version, only then go to + +01:02:33.340 --> 01:02:35.420 +development version 30 and do the same. + +01:02:35.660 --> 01:02:37.580 +Then only ask for assistance in reporting the + +01:02:37.580 --> 01:02:40.260 +bug we found. So I believe when they + +01:02:40.260 --> 01:02:43.540 +encounter a bug, are people supposed to go to + +01:02:43.540 --> 01:02:47.500 +master to pull main and just to make sure + +01:02:47.500 --> 01:02:48.740 +that they are on the latest version. + +01:02:48.740 --> 01:02:49.980 +Is this something that you require? + +01:02:50.660 --> 01:02:51.860 +We don't require that, + +01:02:51.860 --> 01:02:54.940 +but we do try to encourage you to reproduce + +01:02:54.960 --> 01:02:57.380 +it on master if we think that it matters. + +01:02:57.720 --> 01:03:00.920 +Yeah, so if you can, that's even better. + +01:03:01.620 --> 01:03:03.940 +But if the bug is there in Emacs 29, + +01:03:03.940 --> 01:03:06.000 +maybe we want to fix it in Emacs 29.2. + +01:03:06.340 --> 01:03:09.820 +So the latest point release is also fine. + +01:03:10.400 --> 01:03:12.940 +Bugs in Emacs 28 at this point, + +01:03:12.940 --> 01:03:14.780 +like the previous major version, + +01:03:15.060 --> 01:03:17.720 +we might ask you to try to reproduce it on + +01:03:17.720 --> 01:03:19.600 +Emacs 29 because we're not planning more + +01:03:19.600 --> 01:03:21.600 +releases of old major versions. + +01:03:21.600 --> 01:03:23.660 +So that's the fundamental reason for that. + +01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:25.820 +Great. Thank you for your answer. + +01:03:25.900 --> 01:03:27.680 +All right. Moving on to the next question. + +01:03:27.840 --> 01:03:29.280 +On branching off sub-threads, + +01:03:29.680 --> 01:03:31.840 +I note that they are less visible compared to + +01:03:31.840 --> 01:03:33.380 +starting a new thread in practice. + +01:03:33.520 --> 01:03:35.680 +I am wondering if it is just my impression or + +01:03:35.680 --> 01:03:37.400 +something devs also observe. + +01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:39.780 +Yeah, it's true. That's correct. + +01:03:41.400 --> 01:03:42.840 +I don't know what to do about it. + +01:03:42.840 --> 01:03:44.160 +If you want more visibility, + +01:03:44.180 --> 01:03:45.920 +I guess just start a new thread. + +01:03:47.080 --> 01:03:48.960 +I don't know. I can only agree, + +01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:50.880 +really. I concur. That's true. + +01:03:51.720 --> 01:03:54.260 +Okay. Next question. What about rewriting + +01:03:54.340 --> 01:03:57.100 +Emacs in Rust? Use Guile instead of Elisp. + +01:03:57.260 --> 01:03:59.580 +Multi-threaded Emacs. Make Emacs prettier and + +01:03:59.580 --> 01:04:01.760 +shiny. And of course, same defaults. + +01:04:02.220 --> 01:04:04.440 +Just kidding. We are spoiled children because + +01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:07.780 +you and Eli, Lars, and etc do an impressive + +01:04:08.420 --> 01:04:10.620 +work. I live in Emacs since 2001. + +01:04:11.040 --> 01:04:14.220 +Thanks. That was a good 1. + +01:04:14.220 --> 01:04:17.880 +Sane defaults. Okay, Well, + +01:04:18.900 --> 01:04:20.580 +thank you. Thanks for that comment. + +01:04:20.580 --> 01:04:23.440 +That made me chuckle. Next question by the + +01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:24.520 +same person, I assume. + +01:04:24.520 --> 01:04:26.580 +The only downside I see with copyright + +01:04:26.580 --> 01:04:28.900 +assignment is that 1 has to disclose their + +01:04:28.900 --> 01:04:31.240 +real identity. Would it be a possibility to + +01:04:31.240 --> 01:04:32.860 +assign a copyright under a nickname? + +01:04:33.160 --> 01:04:34.840 +Yeah, you don't have to say a real name. + +01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.260 +Just register some pseudonym. + +01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:39.440 +The FSF does need your real name, + +01:04:39.440 --> 01:04:41.420 +but that's kept private only. + +01:04:41.500 --> 01:04:45.920 +So feel free to reach out to assign at + +01:04:45.920 --> 01:04:48.360 +gnu.org and ask more about that. + +01:04:49.860 --> 01:04:51.680 +Right. All right, next question. + +01:04:51.820 --> 01:04:53.400 +Do you think it is possible to reach an + +01:04:53.400 --> 01:04:55.240 +agreement on sane defaults for better + +01:04:55.240 --> 01:04:57.220 +out-of-the-box experience? + +01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.040 +Yeah, so your sane is not my sane + +01:05:00.060 --> 01:05:01.760 +necessarily. So that's the fundamental + +01:05:01.780 --> 01:05:02.960 +problem that we're discussing here. + +01:05:02.960 --> 01:05:03.960 +I think it's a social, + +01:05:03.960 --> 01:05:05.240 +not a technical problem. + +01:05:05.380 --> 01:05:07.580 +We do change defaults sometimes, + +01:05:07.640 --> 01:05:09.880 +but I mean, there is also some staying power. + +01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:12.260 +So it's understandable that, + +01:05:12.260 --> 01:05:13.940 +you know, it's, we can't just change them + +01:05:13.940 --> 01:05:15.920 +willy nilly and then flip flop between, + +01:05:15.920 --> 01:05:18.340 +you know, 1 or the other kind of thing. + +01:05:18.340 --> 01:05:20.060 +So it does take a little bit more time. + +01:05:20.060 --> 01:05:22.860 +But yeah, sure, we can. + +01:05:23.000 --> 01:05:25.860 +We do change defaults at times. + +01:05:26.380 --> 01:05:29.780 +But it's perhaps more slower than what some + +01:05:29.780 --> 01:05:31.420 +people would prefer, for sure. + +01:05:31.640 --> 01:05:36.000 +So that's, yeah. Right, + +01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:37.620 +all right. We have 2 more questions. + +01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:40.020 +So will XWidgets have a future? + +01:05:40.120 --> 01:05:42.180 +Seeing the new bugs popping up in the latest + +01:05:42.740 --> 01:05:45.280 +XWidget dev. Not sure if there was the rest + +01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:46.640 +of the question, But on XWidgets, + +01:05:46.640 --> 01:05:47.940 +can you tell us a little more? + +01:05:48.740 --> 01:05:50.580 +I'm not really following now. + +01:05:50.580 --> 01:05:52.400 +I mean, I'm not seeing a lot of development + +01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:54.180 +on XWidgets currently. + +01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:57.100 +Some people have done work in fixing up a few + +01:05:57.100 --> 01:06:00.320 +bugs, but I think that feature really needs + +01:06:00.380 --> 01:06:02.180 +more love. So I think we need, + +01:06:02.180 --> 01:06:03.600 +you know, help is welcome, + +01:06:03.600 --> 01:06:05.920 +patch is welcome. That's what I can say about + +01:06:05.920 --> 01:06:11.180 +that. All right, and our final question of + +01:06:11.180 --> 01:06:13.140 +the day. Have you voted for Emacs as the + +01:06:13.140 --> 01:06:15.140 +software of the year on the Tuxes by Jupyter + +01:06:15.140 --> 01:06:17.480 +Broadcasting? I did because Emacs 29 is + +01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:19.300 +great. Thank you. Okay, + +01:06:19.300 --> 01:06:20.580 +well, good job voting. + +01:06:20.580 --> 01:06:22.960 +I didn't know, I don't know what Tuxy is on + +01:06:22.960 --> 01:06:25.680 +Jupyter broadcasting, but look it up and go + +01:06:25.680 --> 01:06:28.040 +vote. So I wish I could tell you, + +01:06:28.040 --> 01:06:29.500 +I assume with Tux, it might be something + +01:06:29.500 --> 01:06:32.900 +related to Linux, but that's as much as I can + +01:06:32.900 --> 01:06:34.840 +say. All right, well, Stefan, + +01:06:34.960 --> 01:06:36.600 +thank you so much for taking the time not + +01:06:36.600 --> 01:06:38.000 +only to do a wonderful presentation, + +01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:39.640 +but also for answering all the questions of + +01:06:39.640 --> 01:06:41.240 +the community. Do you have anything else to + +01:06:41.240 --> 01:06:45.360 +add? Just really thanks for all the questions + +01:06:45.360 --> 01:06:46.760 +and thanks for staying. + +01:06:47.780 --> 01:06:49.600 +It's been a long day, a long conference, + +01:06:49.600 --> 01:06:51.180 +so thanks for staying and listening to my + +01:06:51.180 --> 01:06:52.540 +talk as well. Really appreciate it. + +01:06:52.540 --> 01:06:54.280 +Appreciate the good work you guys are doing + +01:06:54.280 --> 01:06:55.460 +behind the scenes, organizing, + +01:06:55.520 --> 01:06:56.740 +setting everything up. + +01:06:57.040 --> 01:07:00.420 +And really humbled to be a part of this + +01:07:00.420 --> 01:07:02.060 +community. So thank you all. + +01:07:02.680 --> 01:07:05.860 +Well I can assure you that no 1 either in the + +01:07:05.860 --> 01:07:08.040 +organization team or the people watching now + +01:07:08.040 --> 01:07:10.900 +felt like it was tiring to stay and listen to + +01:07:10.900 --> 01:07:12.760 +your answers. So thank you so much Stefan. |