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diff --git a/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-eshell--top-10-reasons-why-you-should-be-using-eshell--howard-abrams--answers.vtt b/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-eshell--top-10-reasons-why-you-should-be-using-eshell--howard-abrams--answers.vtt new file mode 100644 index 00000000..ab7a4207 --- /dev/null +++ b/2022/captions/emacsconf-2022-eshell--top-10-reasons-why-you-should-be-using-eshell--howard-abrams--answers.vtt @@ -0,0 +1,1184 @@ +WEBVTT + +00:00.000 --> 00:03.580 +Thanks, Howard, for the great talk. + +00:03.580 --> 00:05.580 +We have the Q&A now open. + +00:05.580 --> 00:09.740 +Folks are welcome to put their questions on the pad on IRC, and we might also open up + +00:09.740 --> 00:14.500 +this room in a few minutes if you might prefer to join Big Blue Button directly and ask your + +00:14.500 --> 00:16.300 +questions to Howard that way. + +00:16.300 --> 00:19.960 +Yeah, so Howard, take it away. + +00:19.960 --> 00:20.960 +Thank you, thank you. + +00:20.960 --> 00:24.020 +Yeah, I wasn't expecting to have a Q&A. + +00:24.020 --> 00:28.180 +Tried to condense it so fast because this was supposed to be a lightning talk, but hey, + +00:28.180 --> 00:31.280 +it's good to talk to everybody. + +00:31.280 --> 00:37.080 +So question on the Etherpad here is, do I fall back to vterm only when needing terminal + +00:37.080 --> 00:39.120 +emulation? + +00:39.120 --> 00:46.160 +And yeah, I kind of know when I'm going to need that based on the use case. + +00:46.160 --> 00:50.000 +Like right now, I'm doing a lot of building with Docker, and Docker just makes a mess + +00:50.000 --> 00:51.060 +out of everything. + +00:51.060 --> 00:56.460 +And so I can sometimes will like start up a vterm for that. + +00:56.460 --> 00:59.920 +But I don't like actually typing a lot of stuff in there as much. + +00:59.920 --> 01:06.400 +So actually, I wrote a little program to, you know, the compile command, I just send + +01:06.400 --> 01:10.560 +the compile over into it that I could see the output and then I could just and it pops + +01:10.560 --> 01:12.080 +right back to where I'm at. + +01:12.080 --> 01:17.920 +So I don't know, I think you kind of need to use a little bit of both. + +01:17.920 --> 01:22.280 +But yeah, it would be nice to kind of flip a window back and forth because there's some + +01:22.280 --> 01:26.700 +things about Eshell that I actually do like a lot. + +01:26.700 --> 01:34.240 +Now my Tramp suggestion, okay, I'll admit Tramp is, it's kind of fickle. + +01:34.240 --> 01:39.920 +I think we all get sometimes better use cases out of it than others. + +01:39.920 --> 01:45.200 +Uh oh, my headphones are out of batteries here. + +01:45.200 --> 01:48.640 +So we might have to flip here. + +01:48.640 --> 01:51.280 +But yeah, so the Tramp, I don't know. + +01:51.280 --> 01:56.320 +I think we have to kind of play with it and see how it goes. + +01:56.320 --> 02:02.480 +See another question is, have we thought about adding the Eshell manual? + +02:02.480 --> 02:10.340 +You know, after doing this talk and I'm realizing a lot of the half baked or almost good stuff + +02:10.340 --> 02:15.120 +with Eshell that we could just kind of fix a little bit and some of the, especially some + +02:15.120 --> 02:21.520 +of the docs, yeah, I'm kind of thinking that maybe, maybe I should hook up with somebody + +02:21.520 --> 02:27.120 +and we could try to do a little bit of extensions there, you know, like fix up the manual a + +02:27.120 --> 02:31.840 +little bit more, make it more of a tutorial, I think would help as well as fixing some + +02:31.840 --> 02:34.560 +of the little problems like that. + +02:34.560 --> 02:43.200 +Trying to be able to cat a buffer into the shell, I think is pretty useful. + +02:43.200 --> 02:46.160 +Let's see, do I know if Eshell can be used from Elisp? + +02:46.160 --> 02:48.160 +Yeah, I use that quite a bit. + +02:48.160 --> 02:52.920 +I actually have functions that call an Eshell command. + +02:52.920 --> 02:59.440 +That way I get all of the, you know, the benefits that you can get from an Eshell, like with + +02:59.440 --> 03:02.000 +the predicates and all that kind of thing. + +03:02.000 --> 03:06.480 +I can't remember who's been doing it, but lately I've been seeing a lot of the do what + +03:06.480 --> 03:13.400 +I mean shell commands that they're, they're building up a bunch of functions that do very + +03:13.400 --> 03:16.360 +specific things, what they need. + +03:16.360 --> 03:23.120 +And it seems like there's a lot of like special commands they're adding into it to like get + +03:23.120 --> 03:24.960 +the file name and that sort of thing. + +03:24.960 --> 03:29.680 +And I was thinking, Hey, that's a great idea, but let's do it with Eshell. + +03:29.680 --> 03:33.880 +So I've been doing something similar, but just calling out to Eshell itself. + +03:33.880 --> 03:39.800 +Let's see, next question, how does that interplay with my literate dellop bop approach? + +03:39.800 --> 03:41.760 +Yeah, the two are different. + +03:41.760 --> 03:48.600 +You know, when I'm doing my literate work, you know, I'm in an org file and I'm just + +03:48.600 --> 03:56.720 +writing commands, but yeah, sometimes it's just a little bit, you know, I'm not planning + +03:56.720 --> 03:57.720 +on keeping it. + +03:57.720 --> 04:02.720 +I'm just kind of investigating things and that's what rebels are really good for. + +04:02.720 --> 04:06.840 +And in that case, yeah, I'll pop over into Eshell, write things. + +04:06.840 --> 04:11.640 +If I see something good, that's where I was talking about my little engineering notebook, + +04:11.640 --> 04:17.080 +sending it out to a capture and then, and capturing it out or writing it into a buffer + +04:17.080 --> 04:19.600 +where I can do more things to it. + +04:19.600 --> 04:23.960 +I guess it's the flexibility I think we all kind of need because you don't know exactly + +04:23.960 --> 04:25.920 +where you're going until you're halfway there. + +04:25.920 --> 04:29.100 +And it's like, Oh, I don't want to start up a new app. + +04:29.100 --> 04:32.200 +That's why we're an Emacs. + +04:32.200 --> 04:33.200 +So yeah. + +04:33.200 --> 04:34.200 +Oh yeah. + +04:34.200 --> 04:35.200 +Thank you. + +04:35.200 --> 04:36.200 +Yeah. + +04:36.200 --> 04:37.200 +Alvaro Ramineers. + +04:37.200 --> 04:38.200 +Yeah. + +04:38.200 --> 04:40.880 +That's the stuff I've been reading a lot about. + +04:40.880 --> 04:41.880 +Let's see. + +04:41.880 --> 04:42.880 +Another question. + +04:42.880 --> 04:47.340 +Do I have a strategy for getting around Eshell's lack of support for input redirection? + +04:47.340 --> 04:50.520 +You know, it is what it is. + +04:50.520 --> 04:54.900 +I don't have any ideas at the moment. + +04:54.900 --> 04:56.480 +It's a good idea. + +04:56.480 --> 05:03.160 +Whenever, you know, we're so used to doing pipes and whenever you start doing a pipe + +05:03.160 --> 05:08.040 +at all, Eshell just immediately throws it into the shell. + +05:08.040 --> 05:11.280 +But then pulling it back in is kind of difficult. + +05:11.280 --> 05:15.480 +So that's why I just started writing them out to buffers and then pulling them back + +05:15.480 --> 05:16.480 +in. + +05:16.480 --> 05:21.720 +And I find that just a little bit more useful situation for what I'm doing. + +05:21.720 --> 05:27.040 +I don't know if other people will find it as useful as I do. + +05:27.040 --> 05:31.440 +But yeah, I'm getting a little tired of trying to get just the right command of piping everything + +05:31.440 --> 05:32.440 +together. + +05:32.440 --> 05:38.200 +And two years ago when I was talking about my little piper idea, this is kind of what + +05:38.200 --> 05:44.040 +it's morphed into was just using Eshell, running the commands, editing the stuff and then pulling + +05:44.040 --> 05:47.400 +it back in to send it to some other app. + +05:47.400 --> 05:54.720 +Or not even pulling it back in, just using it at that point and sending it off into emails. + +05:54.720 --> 06:02.400 +Yes, you can call elist functions, the commands. + +06:02.400 --> 06:05.560 +I was hoping this could be kind of clarified a little bit. + +06:05.560 --> 06:12.520 +But if you have any function, any emacs list function that starts with Eshell slash, that + +06:12.520 --> 06:14.880 +gets called first before any command. + +06:14.880 --> 06:18.800 +So you can override just about every shell command. + +06:18.800 --> 06:20.240 +That many of them are. + +06:20.240 --> 06:22.400 +So there is an Eshell slash ls. + +06:22.400 --> 06:27.560 +So if you type ls into your Eshell, it's actually calling that function. + +06:27.560 --> 06:32.540 +Now most of those functions will, if it runs into too many options that it doesn't know + +06:32.540 --> 06:40.040 +about or something like that, call out to whatever ls program you've got installed. + +06:40.040 --> 06:44.600 +But that's how it goes. + +06:44.600 --> 06:48.120 +So yes, buffers are superior pipes. + +06:48.120 --> 06:50.880 +Whoever is typing that, I think that's a great idea. + +06:50.880 --> 06:55.840 +I think that's kind of the concept that I'm realizing this year. + +06:55.840 --> 07:06.320 +Hold on one second while I switch headphones here. + +07:06.320 --> 07:08.640 +I suppose you can still hear me, right? + +07:08.640 --> 07:11.960 +Yep, I can still hear you. + +07:11.960 --> 07:18.760 +Well, nobody's talking yet. + +07:18.760 --> 07:20.800 +I can still hear you. + +07:20.800 --> 07:22.720 +OK, perfect, perfect. + +07:22.720 --> 07:23.720 +And I can hear you too. + +07:23.720 --> 07:26.800 +So that works well. + +07:26.800 --> 07:28.260 +Let's see. + +07:28.260 --> 07:30.280 +Any other questions in the IRC? + +07:30.280 --> 07:35.040 +Not seeing them mostly in the etherpad here. + +07:35.040 --> 07:42.600 +Do I have a preferred method for getting argument completion for shell commands? + +07:42.600 --> 07:46.120 +OK, that's a really good question. + +07:46.120 --> 07:53.720 +There is a function that I found in Eshell for getting options. + +07:53.720 --> 07:57.620 +And it's like, great, that's what I was expecting, something like a get ops. + +07:57.620 --> 08:02.040 +So I start playing around with it, and it's like almost there. + +08:02.040 --> 08:05.160 +The problem is it's not really as flexible as I would think. + +08:05.160 --> 08:08.320 +It either takes command line arguments or it doesn't. + +08:08.320 --> 08:13.880 +And it's kind of made for very simple commands only. + +08:13.880 --> 08:18.200 +So well, I ended up writing my own. + +08:18.200 --> 08:22.480 +So I wrote kind of a get ops like function, kind of behaves like it, where you can give + +08:22.480 --> 08:28.240 +it a list of single commands, a list of those long commands, some that take options and + +08:28.240 --> 08:30.280 +some that don't. + +08:30.280 --> 08:36.920 +And you'll see that in my, where I've got it here in the etherpad up on the full code. + +08:36.920 --> 08:41.200 +I also posted it up on Mastodon as well earlier. + +08:41.200 --> 08:44.240 +But I have a link to my configuration file. + +08:44.240 --> 08:45.240 +It's all literate. + +08:45.240 --> 08:50.200 +So you can just scroll down, search for get ops, and you'll see my function. + +08:50.200 --> 08:53.720 +I haven't fully tested out everything yet. + +08:53.720 --> 08:57.720 +Most of the code was actually written for this talk, I found. + +08:57.720 --> 09:01.200 +And so there will be bugs. + +09:01.200 --> 09:07.340 +But you know, you might find it interesting to grab some of the stuff and play around + +09:07.340 --> 09:08.340 +with it. + +09:08.340 --> 09:10.440 +If you find some bugs, please send them back to me. + +09:10.440 --> 09:14.320 +I'll discover them soon enough. + +09:14.320 --> 09:19.720 +So is it possible to get L.base completion for elist calls and eshell? + +09:19.720 --> 09:20.720 +Good question. + +09:20.720 --> 09:23.920 +I don't know. + +09:23.920 --> 09:28.160 +I have been switching from company mode to Corfu. + +09:28.160 --> 09:30.120 +Just try it all out. + +09:30.120 --> 09:37.080 +I'm getting some pretty good completions, but the EL doc based would be, that would + +09:37.080 --> 09:43.120 +be very lovely. + +09:43.120 --> 09:45.040 +A plan nine smart shell. + +09:45.040 --> 09:46.400 +Sorry, sorry. + +09:46.400 --> 09:47.400 +Oh, yes. + +09:47.400 --> 09:58.160 +I do remember reading Mickey Peterson's article on eshell and his plan nine idea. + +09:58.160 --> 10:04.240 +I was playing around with it for a little bit, but I don't know. + +10:04.240 --> 10:05.240 +Yeah. + +10:05.240 --> 10:11.720 +I couldn't get it quite working the way I thought I would want it to, so I didn't follow + +10:11.720 --> 10:12.720 +through. + +10:12.720 --> 10:18.600 +But I just got some good ideas there. + +10:18.600 --> 10:21.080 +Any other questions? + +10:21.080 --> 10:27.680 +But yes, I should, yeah, I should revisit Mickey Peterson's ideas. + +10:27.680 --> 10:28.680 +Say it again. + +10:28.680 --> 10:29.680 +Cool. + +10:29.680 --> 10:30.680 +Yeah, sorry. + +10:30.680 --> 10:32.720 +I guess I was just going to ask a question on the fly here. + +10:32.720 --> 10:33.720 +Sure. + +10:33.720 --> 10:38.040 +Yeah, which is, so you mentioned this sort of get up function or get up like function + +10:38.040 --> 10:39.040 +that you implemented. + +10:39.040 --> 10:43.840 +Would you consider maybe having that integrated in Emacs core itself so that it's available + +10:43.840 --> 10:46.880 +to all other eshell users? + +10:46.880 --> 10:54.040 +I think that'd be a great idea and I'm kind of thinking I need to kind of see what should + +10:54.040 --> 11:00.760 +go into eshell and what should maybe be like a side package like eshell ext kind of thing + +11:00.760 --> 11:07.200 +for getting some extra stuff because I don't know if everybody wants all of it. + +11:07.200 --> 11:13.800 +So having a side package might be a really good idea and then seeing, yeah. + +11:13.800 --> 11:15.760 +So yes, if you want to work on it with me. + +11:15.760 --> 11:16.760 +Yeah, sure. + +11:16.760 --> 11:17.760 +Sounds good. + +11:17.760 --> 11:18.760 +Why not? + +11:18.760 --> 11:19.760 +Sure. + +11:19.760 --> 11:20.760 +Sure. + +11:20.760 --> 11:23.840 +All right. + +11:23.840 --> 11:30.200 +Any other questions or good? + +11:30.200 --> 11:32.360 +I think we still have about, sorry. + +11:32.360 --> 11:33.360 +Go ahead. + +11:33.360 --> 11:36.760 +Oh, I was going to say I think we're out of questions. + +11:36.760 --> 11:37.760 +Right? + +11:37.760 --> 11:38.760 +Yeah. + +11:38.760 --> 11:39.760 +But we still are not out of time yet. + +11:39.760 --> 11:49.400 +So I think I've got more time for Q&A than I thought I had for the actual talk. + +11:49.400 --> 11:52.280 +Yeah, it's been interesting. + +11:52.280 --> 11:57.360 +So we were kind of debating on switching to two tracks like we have done this year or + +11:57.360 --> 12:01.240 +keeping or maintaining the same setup as the previous years, which was one track. + +12:01.240 --> 12:06.280 +But sort of all the talks were very like squeezing together and it was a last minute decision + +12:06.280 --> 12:07.280 +kind of. + +12:07.280 --> 12:10.000 +And we almost did end up going back to one track. + +12:10.000 --> 12:11.000 +But we're here. + +12:11.000 --> 12:14.760 +And I think that's the reason why some of the Q&As are sometimes longer than the talks + +12:14.760 --> 12:15.760 +themselves. + +12:15.760 --> 12:18.080 +Well, okay. + +12:18.080 --> 12:22.340 +So personally, I love the two track idea and I love all the breaks. + +12:22.340 --> 12:27.200 +It's made it a lot easier because last year it's like, oh, I can't even get up. + +12:27.200 --> 12:29.860 +Yeah, I feel you. + +12:29.860 --> 12:30.860 +And I feel the same too. + +12:30.860 --> 12:34.940 +Both, I mean, as someone who's been a little bit watching, but also as organizers, I mean, + +12:34.940 --> 12:39.360 +you couldn't catch a breath with like that one track rapid fire of talks one after another. + +12:39.360 --> 12:41.760 +So this is much better, I feel like. + +12:41.760 --> 12:42.760 +Yeah. + +12:42.760 --> 12:43.760 +Yeah. + +12:43.760 --> 12:44.760 +So let's keep it. + +12:44.760 --> 12:45.760 +Let's keep it going. + +12:45.760 --> 12:46.760 +Yeah. + +12:46.760 --> 12:48.760 +And next year, maybe I can do 15 minutes. + +12:48.760 --> 12:49.760 +Yes. + +12:49.760 --> 12:50.760 +Mal? + +12:50.760 --> 12:51.760 +Yes. + +12:51.760 --> 12:54.560 +Are you the maintainer of Eshell now? + +12:54.560 --> 12:56.560 +No, I'm not. + +12:56.560 --> 12:59.680 +Just an interested bystander. + +12:59.680 --> 13:03.200 +I think Eshell is still just part of Core. + +13:03.200 --> 13:09.260 +John Wiggly wrote it originally, but I think it's just part of the core. + +13:09.260 --> 13:13.540 +So I don't think anyone is maintaining it per se. + +13:13.540 --> 13:18.160 +It certainly is getting a little long in the tooth and we probably need to do some updatings + +13:18.160 --> 13:19.160 +on it. + +13:19.160 --> 13:21.720 +So maybe that's what we should do for version 30. + +13:21.720 --> 13:27.400 +Yeah, I've started to use it a little bit more just because of all the chatter on the + +13:27.400 --> 13:29.100 +various blogs, right? + +13:29.100 --> 13:31.240 +There is a lot of chatter lately. + +13:31.240 --> 13:38.080 +But it burned me recently for like half an hour because I was trying to SSH into a machine + +13:38.080 --> 13:39.080 +from Eshell. + +13:39.080 --> 13:45.240 +And usually, I use just regular shell mode. + +13:45.240 --> 13:53.160 +And for some reason, it just didn't connect up to the SSH agent or whatever. + +13:53.160 --> 13:57.840 +So I was thinking that everything's broken and stuff. + +13:57.840 --> 13:59.800 +I'm like running around trying to do stuff. + +13:59.800 --> 14:03.600 +Oh, it's just because I'm in Eshell trying to do this. + +14:03.600 --> 14:04.600 +Yes, yes. + +14:04.600 --> 14:07.600 +And if I know I'm going to be SSHing into a box, I don't. + +14:07.600 --> 14:10.280 +I just start up vterm and go. + +14:10.280 --> 14:12.280 +Then I know it's going to be pretty good. + +14:12.280 --> 14:16.240 +I've had a lot of good success in that regard with vterm. + +14:16.240 --> 14:21.360 +However, the problem is it's hard to pull that kind of stuff back. + +14:21.360 --> 14:25.040 +Like I'll find something interesting and it's like, oh, crap. + +14:25.040 --> 14:31.400 +Now I have to control C, control T, and then go up and collect it as opposed to shooting + +14:31.400 --> 14:37.040 +it out over into an org file with a redirection. + +14:37.040 --> 14:41.480 +That's why I've been kind of playing around with just using Tramp in Eshell as opposed + +14:41.480 --> 14:44.040 +to SSHing in. + +14:44.040 --> 14:46.040 +My knowledge may vary. + +14:46.040 --> 14:51.400 +I thought in the command interpreter, there's some stuff like... + +14:51.400 --> 14:52.400 +There is. + +14:52.400 --> 14:57.760 +It's supposed to be the visual commands. + +14:57.760 --> 15:02.200 +I think there's a list of them, and SSH is one of those. + +15:02.200 --> 15:11.920 +It's supposed to then start off as a shell mode, detached little process and feed stuff, + +15:11.920 --> 15:13.560 +but I don't know. + +15:13.560 --> 15:16.680 +I haven't had as much luck with it, so I haven't really bothered. + +15:16.680 --> 15:18.320 +I just jump. + +15:18.320 --> 15:21.400 +If I know I'm going to SSH, I'll just start a vterm and go. + +15:21.400 --> 15:29.240 +Well, I mean, aside from doing SSH, just using... + +15:29.240 --> 15:31.320 +I think there are a couple commands for... + +15:31.320 --> 15:38.720 +There's one for taking the command on the command line and putting it into the kill + +15:38.720 --> 15:44.880 +ring, and there's another one for flushing the buffer, flushing the last output of your + +15:44.880 --> 15:55.080 +buffer, and it works in many different shell or repl-type environments inside Emacs, but + +15:55.080 --> 16:00.520 +it doesn't put it into the kill ring, which was sort of confusing to me, so I'll have + +16:00.520 --> 16:07.000 +to dive into the Elisp at some point and figure out how to get what I want. + +16:07.000 --> 16:09.680 +I think that's the problem with this Eshell. + +16:09.680 --> 16:19.860 +There's a lot of interesting ideas, but there's a lot that's not quite baked yet. + +16:19.860 --> 16:26.280 +It's a combination of what we expect, because it's not a terminal emulator shell. + +16:26.280 --> 16:32.760 +It's not like Bash, it's different, but it's got some cool stuff, so there's expectation, + +16:32.760 --> 16:38.560 +and then there are just bugs and things that haven't been finished. + +16:38.560 --> 16:41.080 +I can't remember who started... + +16:41.080 --> 16:48.400 +I've got a link in my configuration file, but somebody was writing on how to get the + +16:48.400 --> 16:55.320 +output from the last command in shell, shell mode, and I thought, that's a great idea. + +16:55.320 --> 17:01.640 +I want that in Eshell, and then I found the source code that there's a double dollar sign + +17:01.640 --> 17:02.640 +that's already there. + +17:02.640 --> 17:03.640 +Great. + +17:03.640 --> 17:04.640 +Wait a minute. + +17:04.640 --> 17:05.640 +It doesn't work all the time? + +17:05.640 --> 17:10.640 +What the hell? + +17:10.640 --> 17:15.720 +When I saw that in your talk, I was like, oh, that's one of the things I've been looking + +17:15.720 --> 17:16.720 +for. + +17:16.720 --> 17:17.720 +It is, exactly. + +17:17.720 --> 17:22.640 +Now, I'll admit, the underpinnings are really good. + +17:22.640 --> 17:28.520 +It didn't take long to actually make that and fix it, and then make it even better. + +17:28.520 --> 17:32.800 +Like putting in a kill ring, it's like, now that is nice, so that I could just grab it + +17:32.800 --> 17:34.120 +as an array and go. + +17:34.120 --> 17:35.120 +That's really good. + +17:35.120 --> 17:37.600 +So, I think there's a lot of good stuff there. + +17:37.600 --> 17:42.200 +I think, yeah, let's just make some features. + +17:42.200 --> 17:48.000 +Let's make an extension, and let's assign the copyright to the BFSS. + +17:48.000 --> 17:53.080 +Yeah, maybe I'll start looking at Eshell after. + +17:53.080 --> 17:58.440 +I'm playing around with org-node right now, trying to catch up to some of the forks, but + +17:58.440 --> 18:02.840 +maybe Eshell is another, the next thing to sort of poke at. + +18:02.840 --> 18:05.840 +Aren't there so many fun things to do? + +18:05.840 --> 18:08.840 +It's terrible. + +18:08.840 --> 18:13.880 +Great, great, great. + +18:13.880 --> 18:17.960 +I got another question over here in the IRC, do you ever fall back to terminals and shells + +18:17.960 --> 18:20.160 +outside of Emacs? + +18:20.160 --> 18:32.260 +Okay, that, all right, confession time, yes, I sometimes use iterm. + +18:32.260 --> 18:37.920 +So when I, so when I first boot up, I do have to use a terminal before I start up Emacs + +18:37.920 --> 18:39.840 +because it's got to mount everything. + +18:39.840 --> 18:46.040 +So I do use iterm, and yeah, sometimes if it happens to be there, I'll type the command + +18:46.040 --> 18:51.040 +in there instead of running into Emacs. + +18:51.040 --> 18:56.440 +But I just find running those terminals to be pretty frustrating because most of them, + +18:56.440 --> 19:04.480 +you have to use a mouse to copy and select stuff. + +19:04.480 --> 19:08.480 +Yeah and actually I could maybe chime in here and say that yeah, exactly, not only for terminals + +19:08.480 --> 19:15.960 +but also for IRC clients, I feel like I've tried using a bunch of different ones, yeah, + +19:15.960 --> 19:20.880 +but it ultimately comes down to I can't just put the cursor up, you know, quickly grab + +19:20.880 --> 19:23.920 +something, kill it and paste it somewhere else or just use it. + +19:23.920 --> 19:28.040 +And yeah, that's, I feel like one of the killer features of Emacs or anything that's built + +19:28.040 --> 19:29.040 +into Emacs. + +19:29.040 --> 19:30.040 +Mm-hmm. + +19:30.040 --> 19:31.040 +Mm-hmm. + +19:31.040 --> 19:32.040 +Agreed. + +19:32.040 --> 19:39.320 +Lounge679 says, what are the less well oiled parts of Eshell and the edge cases? + +19:39.320 --> 19:45.960 +Yeah, that's a great phrasing, less well oiled parts. + +19:45.960 --> 19:51.760 +There's just a little friction and I think we need to figure out how to fix those things + +19:51.760 --> 19:54.360 +when we encounter them. + +19:54.360 --> 20:01.440 +Yeah, I should make a list of the things I found and hey, Mal, you give me a list too. + +20:01.440 --> 20:02.440 +And yeah. + +20:02.440 --> 20:09.040 +I think one of the problems with Eshell is that it's not based on comment, like shell + +20:09.040 --> 20:10.040 +and- It isn't. + +20:10.040 --> 20:17.400 +Yeah, and as a result, the other shells have like a uniform interface and uniform key bindings + +20:17.400 --> 20:19.040 +for doing things. + +20:19.040 --> 20:25.360 +And Eshell does things slightly differently, different enough that- + +20:25.360 --> 20:26.360 +That's right. + +20:26.360 --> 20:27.360 +Yeah. + +20:27.360 --> 20:28.360 +Yeah, exactly. + +20:28.360 --> 20:29.360 +And that's good and bad. + +20:29.360 --> 20:30.480 +It's doing something totally different. + +20:30.480 --> 20:35.280 +And if you know that it's just gonna be different and you'll treat it differently, at least that's + +20:35.280 --> 20:36.280 +how I found. + +20:36.280 --> 20:42.280 +So that's why I'm jumping between the vterm and Eshell, depending on what I'm trying to + +20:42.280 --> 20:43.340 +do. + +20:43.340 --> 20:48.760 +But I'm just finding there's a lot of interesting stuff in Eshell, but it changes how we run + +20:48.760 --> 20:49.760 +things. + +20:49.760 --> 20:56.240 +I think it's very similar to, well, I mean, if, okay, I'm not blaming names, but if you're + +20:56.240 --> 21:01.080 +a VI user, you're starting with a terminal and you're running commands. + +21:01.080 --> 21:04.400 +And then when you need to edit a file, you edit, you come back, but the shell is kind + +21:04.400 --> 21:05.400 +of your main focus. + +21:05.400 --> 21:10.160 +Well, we're all over here in Emacs and we just run commands from Emacs, right? + +21:10.160 --> 21:12.280 +That's just how we behave. + +21:12.280 --> 21:19.680 +And using Eshell is this way where don't go all the way, don't try to, but you can kind + +21:19.680 --> 21:22.300 +of pretend and do different things. + +21:22.300 --> 21:30.320 +So yeah, so that's why I say it kind of changes our behavior because it's doing things differently. + +21:30.320 --> 21:34.560 +So you can't look at it as another common. + +21:34.560 --> 21:43.600 +Wait, so when you say you're using vterm, does that mean you're using, that's a separate + +21:43.600 --> 21:49.920 +application outside of Emacs or is there a, oh, oh, yeah. + +21:49.920 --> 21:55.960 +So vterm is, I don't know when it came out, a couple of years ago, I don't know the details + +21:55.960 --> 22:02.960 +of it, but it's using a module library to do all the heavy lifting. + +22:02.960 --> 22:07.720 +So it's just a little better comment and I've just found it to be a lot, very reliable and + +22:07.720 --> 22:08.840 +pretty fast. + +22:08.840 --> 22:16.480 +So especially when I'm SSHing into another machine in my data centers and especially + +22:16.480 --> 22:21.200 +building all the Docker and some of the weird terminal stuff that I need to do in those + +22:21.200 --> 22:28.280 +shell environments using SSH, I just find vterm to be really good for what that does. + +22:28.280 --> 22:29.280 +Oh, okay. + +22:29.280 --> 22:30.280 +I see it now. + +22:30.280 --> 22:31.280 +It's on an alpha. + +22:31.280 --> 22:32.280 +All right. + +22:32.280 --> 22:33.280 +Yeah. + +22:33.280 --> 22:39.880 +It is in the, you're still in Emacs, but the key bindings are pretty good, but you do, + +22:39.880 --> 22:47.280 +you know, it has two modes, one for selecting text and then one for being a terminal. + +22:47.280 --> 22:50.280 +Maybe I'll try that out instead of metax-gel. + +22:50.280 --> 22:54.240 +Yes, I would, if you can. + +22:54.240 --> 22:59.200 +The problem that I think most people have is building that vterm library. + +22:59.200 --> 23:02.960 +I haven't had any problems on my work Mac. + +23:02.960 --> 23:04.480 +So it's been pretty good for me. + +23:04.480 --> 23:05.480 +Okay. + +23:05.480 --> 23:06.480 +All right. + +23:06.480 --> 23:12.240 +That's good to know about too, but that'll keep me from you like adopting Eshell. + +23:12.240 --> 23:13.240 +Sure. + +23:13.240 --> 23:17.720 +You know, that's a nice thing about choices. + +23:17.720 --> 23:18.720 +Yeah. + +23:18.720 --> 23:29.160 +You'll just find that vterm, I think behaves exactly like you expect a terminal to act. + +23:29.160 --> 23:31.560 +And so you won't have, you won't have to do much. + +23:31.560 --> 23:35.060 +I don't have much in the way of customizations. + +23:35.060 --> 23:41.160 +It's mostly my customizations is just starting a vterm running SSH automatically. + +23:41.160 --> 23:44.600 +So it's mostly about working with my external hosts. + +23:44.600 --> 23:51.600 +And if I may quickly jump in here, I think we have about another minute or so of live + +23:51.600 --> 23:55.760 +Q&A on the stream at which point then the stream will move on, but you folks are welcome + +23:55.760 --> 24:01.440 +to stay here or like continue the Q&A on the pad or whatever works best. + +24:01.440 --> 24:02.440 +Just staying in this room. + +24:02.440 --> 24:03.440 +Yeah. + +24:03.440 --> 24:04.440 +And continue talking. + +24:04.440 --> 24:05.440 +Lovely. + +24:05.440 --> 24:06.440 +Yeah. + +24:06.440 --> 24:12.120 +As Karthik has said vterm isn't distracting. + +24:12.120 --> 24:18.600 +It doesn't, you know, it's, it's just exactly what you expect. + +24:18.600 --> 24:20.480 +So it's not interesting either. + +24:20.480 --> 24:34.320 +No, I'm just, yeah, and so there's some good comments on the IRC. + +24:34.320 --> 24:35.320 +So yeah. + +24:35.320 --> 24:36.320 +Thanks everybody. + +24:36.320 --> 24:37.320 +It's been fun. + +24:37.320 --> 24:38.320 +All right. + +24:38.320 --> 24:39.320 +I'm going to jump off now. + +24:39.320 --> 24:40.320 +Nice talking to you, Howard. + +24:40.320 --> 24:41.320 +You too. + +24:41.320 --> 24:42.320 +All right. + +24:42.320 --> 24:43.320 +Thank you all. + +24:43.320 --> 24:46.800 +I think I'll drop off as well. + +24:46.800 --> 24:48.800 +All right. + +24:48.800 --> 24:50.800 +Thank you. + |