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+WEBVTT
+
+00:00.880 --> 00:02.720
+[Raymond Puzio]: Hello, I'm Raymond Puzio.
+
+00:02.720 --> 00:04.799
+I first learned about Emacs and Lisp
+
+00:04.799 --> 00:05.920
+at an enrichment program
+
+00:05.920 --> 00:07.200
+for high school students.
+
+00:07.200 --> 00:09.120
+When I studied physics at the university,
+
+00:09.120 --> 00:10.400
+I used Emacs and Tex
+
+00:10.400 --> 00:12.320
+to write mathematical documents.
+
+00:12.320 --> 00:13.920
+Later on, I became active
+
+00:13.920 --> 00:16.480
+in Emacs and Lisp user groups where,
+
+00:16.480 --> 00:18.160
+among other things, I learned about
+
+00:18.160 --> 00:20.400
+Org mode for reproducible research.
+
+00:20.400 --> 00:21.680
+Nowadays, I am working on
+
+00:21.680 --> 00:24.080
+synthesizing Emacs and other programs
+
+00:24.080 --> 00:25.599
+into an end-to-end platform
+
+00:25.599 --> 00:30.560
+for scientific research and collaboration.
+
+00:30.560 --> 00:31.519
+[Joe Corneli]: I'm Joe Corneli.
+
+00:31.519 --> 00:33.920
+I also started using Emacs in high school
+
+00:33.920 --> 00:35.440
+in a course on C programming,
+
+00:35.440 --> 00:36.800
+and now I'm technically
+
+00:36.800 --> 00:38.239
+a computer scientist.
+
+00:38.239 --> 00:39.280
+My research background
+
+00:39.280 --> 00:43.120
+is in mathematics and online communities.
+
+00:43.120 --> 00:45.039
+[Noorah Alhasan]: Hi, I'm Noorah Alhasan.
+
+00:45.039 --> 00:46.719
+I'm a member of the ERG group
+
+00:46.719 --> 00:49.600
+and a PhD student at UT Austin
+
+00:49.600 --> 00:51.760
+studying climate policy.
+
+00:51.760 --> 00:54.239
+So for this talk, the four of us
+
+00:54.239 --> 00:56.640
+met at EmacsConf 2020 last year
+
+00:56.640 --> 00:57.760
+with a common interest
+
+00:57.760 --> 00:59.520
+in Emacs and research.
+
+00:59.520 --> 01:01.760
+we've met almost every week since then
+
+01:01.760 --> 01:02.640
+because we wanted to
+
+01:02.640 --> 01:04.479
+keep the conversation going.
+
+01:04.479 --> 01:05.519
+In this short talk,
+
+01:05.519 --> 01:06.560
+we share information
+
+01:06.560 --> 01:08.240
+about the methods we use.
+
+01:08.240 --> 01:09.680
+Here's the outline of our talk.
+
+01:09.680 --> 01:10.560
+First, we'll tell you
+
+01:10.560 --> 01:12.320
+about the technologies we use
+
+01:12.320 --> 01:13.840
+and show a short demo video
+
+01:13.840 --> 01:15.360
+from one of the meetings.
+
+01:15.360 --> 01:16.320
+We'll then focus on
+
+01:16.320 --> 01:18.880
+the time and content structuring methods
+
+01:18.880 --> 01:21.040
+we use in our live sessions.
+
+01:21.040 --> 01:22.240
+Finally, we'll talk about
+
+01:22.240 --> 01:24.320
+what came out of all this work.
+
+01:24.320 --> 01:28.159
+For example, we wrote a paper for the
+
+01:28.159 --> 01:30.400
+Pattern Languages of Programs conference,
+
+01:30.400 --> 01:31.759
+and we designed a workshop
+
+01:31.759 --> 01:33.920
+using the knowledge we created together.
+
+01:33.920 --> 01:35.600
+Very practically,
+
+01:35.600 --> 01:37.119
+this has improved the quality
+
+01:37.119 --> 01:38.640
+of our own collaboration
+
+01:38.640 --> 01:39.680
+and we have some lessons
+
+01:39.680 --> 01:41.360
+about how you can create
+
+01:41.360 --> 00:01:45.999
+a research community similar to ours.
+
+01:46.000 --> 01:48.399
+[Joe]: You'll have noticed that we all have
+
+01:48.399 --> 01:50.159
+different research backgrounds
+
+01:50.159 --> 01:52.640
+and we do think that transdisciplinarity
+
+01:52.640 --> 01:54.960
+is important for solving big problems.
+
+01:54.960 --> 01:56.719
+However, if you have people
+
+01:56.719 --> 01:58.000
+from different research backgrounds
+
+01:58.000 --> 01:58.560
+working together,
+
+01:58.560 --> 01:59.680
+they need some scaffolding,
+
+01:59.680 --> 02:01.360
+both in terms of tools and methods,
+
+02:01.360 --> 02:02.880
+to have good conversations.
+
+02:02.880 --> 02:04.320
+And of course, as Emacs users,
+
+02:04.320 --> 02:05.439
+we wanted to have Emacs
+
+02:05.439 --> 02:07.360
+at the center of that.
+
+02:07.360 --> 02:08.640
+Being in a meeting,
+
+02:08.640 --> 02:10.720
+taking real-time notes
+
+02:10.720 --> 02:11.920
+collaboratively with Emacs
+
+02:11.920 --> 02:13.440
+realizes a dream that some of us
+
+02:13.440 --> 02:14.480
+have been entertaining
+
+02:14.480 --> 02:15.520
+(and experimenting with)
+
+02:15.520 --> 02:18.800
+for a while. The package crdt.el
+
+02:18.800 --> 02:21.440
+by Qiantan Hong makes this easy.
+
+02:21.440 --> 02:22.959
+We take notes in our meetings
+
+02:22.959 --> 02:24.239
+using Org Mode.
+
+02:24.239 --> 02:25.520
+Since we've seen this before
+
+02:25.520 --> 02:27.040
+in talks on reproducible research,
+
+02:27.040 --> 02:29.920
+and since Leo is the maintainer of org-roam,
+
+02:29.920 --> 02:31.680
+it was a natural choice for us.
+
+02:31.680 --> 02:32.400
+It allows us to
+
+02:32.400 --> 02:34.080
+put our notes online using git
+
+02:34.080 --> 02:36.080
+and the static state generator Firn.
+
+02:36.080 --> 02:37.599
+And lastly, of course, we need
+
+02:37.599 --> 02:38.720
+a real-time meeting tool.
+
+02:38.720 --> 02:39.519
+For that purpose,
+
+02:39.519 --> 02:41.920
+we use BBB in our weekly sessions
+
+02:41.920 --> 02:43.519
+(in fact, we use the same server
+
+02:43.519 --> 02:44.879
+that's used by EmacsConf,
+
+02:44.879 --> 02:46.720
+thanks again to Leo).
+
+02:46.720 --> 02:48.000
+All of these tools are
+
+02:48.000 --> 02:49.380
+free/libre/open source.
+
+02:49.380 --> 02:50.720
+However, BBB does have
+
+02:50.720 --> 00:02:53.679
+some intensive hardware requirements.
+
+02:53.680 --> 02:54.800
+Next up, here's a
+
+02:54.800 --> 02:56.239
+short pre-recorded snippet
+
+02:56.239 --> 02:57.680
+from one of our recent meetings
+
+02:57.680 --> 03:01.840
+so you can get a sense of how they go.
+
+03:01.840 --> 03:02.640
+[Demo - Leo Vivier]: Are we okay
+
+03:02.640 --> 03:04.159
+pushing the demo to the end?
+
+03:04.159 --> 03:05.440
+That kind of presupposes
+
+03:05.440 --> 03:07.120
+a different structure
+
+03:07.120 --> 03:08.080
+that you would usually have
+
+03:08.080 --> 03:08.800
+in a presentation.
+
+03:08.800 --> 03:09.760
+Generally you have...
+
+03:09.760 --> 03:12.800
+You introduce the demo, you do the demo,
+
+03:12.800 --> 03:14.720
+and then you do the conclusions,
+
+03:14.720 --> 03:16.560
+or what was good about the demo.
+
+03:16.560 --> 03:18.159
+Does that make sense to everyone?
+
+03:18.159 --> 03:18.560
+[Ray]: Let's see.
+
+03:18.560 --> 03:19.599
+When you usually do that,
+
+03:19.599 --> 03:21.760
+that's because whatever you're demonstrating
+
+03:21.760 --> 03:23.840
+is the main point of your talk,
+
+03:23.840 --> 03:25.840
+so if this was a talk about action reviews,
+
+03:25.840 --> 03:29.760
+that would make sense, but isn't it not ERG?
+
+03:29.760 --> 03:32.319
+[Leo]: But it's because we are telling...
+
+03:32.319 --> 03:34.400
+For me, I think it's a compound element.
+
+03:34.400 --> 03:36.640
+Yes, we are demonstrating the power,
+
+03:36.640 --> 03:37.840
+but we are also demonstrating
+
+03:37.840 --> 03:39.680
+how we're working together by...
+
+03:39.680 --> 03:42.000
+Yes, we might have introduced CRDT before
+
+03:42.000 --> 03:43.840
+in the presentation itself,
+
+03:43.840 --> 03:46.959
+but if we need to be doing the power,
+
+03:46.959 --> 03:49.360
+and also showing tools like CRDT,
+
+03:49.360 --> 03:50.879
+obviously, we're not... probably not going
+
+03:50.879 --> 03:52.959
+to be talking about... oh by the way,
+
+03:52.959 --> 03:54.239
+here we are using CRDT
+
+03:54.239 --> 03:54.879
+and stuff like this.
+
+03:54.879 --> 03:57.280
+It feels like cramming a lot of stuff
+
+03:57.280 --> 03:58.720
+into this demo at the end.
+
+03:58.720 --> 04:00.159
+[Joe]: So I think demo to me
+
+04:00.159 --> 04:02.159
+is less about demoing one of the methods,
+
+04:02.159 --> 04:02.879
+because then people will get
+
+04:02.879 --> 04:05.439
+a bit hung up on that.
+
+04:05.439 --> 04:07.360
+I think the demo...
+
+04:07.360 --> 04:08.080
+You know, to be honest,
+
+04:08.080 --> 04:09.200
+here's another thing.
+
+04:09.200 --> 04:09.920
+What we could do--
+
+04:09.920 --> 04:10.959
+this would be very clever--
+
+04:10.959 --> 04:12.400
+we could make this the demo,
+
+04:12.400 --> 04:13.920
+what we're doing right now,
+
+04:13.920 --> 04:15.519
+writing this talk is the demo,
+
+04:15.519 --> 04:18.560
+and just go back into the video
+
+04:18.560 --> 04:20.160
+and just get out a two-minute section,
+
+04:20.160 --> 04:22.479
+so we say, look we tried to write this talk,
+
+04:22.479 --> 04:23.680
+we went around, had a discussion,
+
+04:23.680 --> 04:25.040
+we had these things and then we just take...
+
+04:25.040 --> 04:26.240
+We're going to pick two minutes
+
+04:26.240 --> 04:26.880
+out of this video
+
+04:26.880 --> 04:27.440
+and show you that
+
+04:27.440 --> 04:29.280
+as a demo of how we actually work
+
+04:29.280 --> 04:30.320
+and then we'll go back to the talk.
+
+04:30.320 --> 04:31.199
+I mean, it'd be very funny,
+
+04:31.199 --> 04:32.880
+and then we've already done the demo.
+
+04:32.880 --> 04:34.560
+It's just, like... uh yeah,
+
+04:34.560 --> 04:35.280
+then we're good to go.
+
+04:35.280 --> 04:37.120
+And it's got neural lines on the floor.
+
+04:37.120 --> 04:39.199
+It's like a perfect writer's room.
+
+04:39.199 --> 04:41.199
+It's a total amazing writer's room scenario,
+
+04:41.199 --> 04:43.120
+specifically because she's lying on her back
+
+04:43.120 --> 04:45.360
+on the floor. Anyway. I mean,
+
+04:45.360 --> 04:47.680
+I think this would be fine.
+
+04:47.680 --> 04:49.520
+[Leo]: I think I particularly like the idea
+
+04:49.520 --> 04:52.080
+of taking the snippet,
+
+04:52.080 --> 04:54.000
+the two minutes before the realization
+
+04:54.000 --> 04:56.400
+that we could be using this as the demo,
+
+04:56.400 --> 05:00.240
+and then seeing the... well my face light up
+
+05:00.240 --> 05:01.680
+because it feels like a good idea,
+
+05:01.680 --> 05:03.360
+and Joe gets excited about this.
+
+05:03.360 --> 05:04.720
+I think this could be a good demo,
+
+05:04.720 --> 05:07.120
+and I think this would be
+
+05:07.120 --> 05:08.479
+a very genuine demonstration
+
+05:08.479 --> 05:09.360
+of how we work here
+
+05:09.360 --> 05:10.400
+and how we get excited about
+
+05:10.400 --> 00:05:13.599
+some of our ideas sometimes.
+
+05:13.600 --> 05:14.639
+[Noorah]: In the demo,
+
+05:14.639 --> 05:16.240
+you saw a very improvised
+
+05:16.240 --> 05:18.000
+free-flowing conversation.
+
+05:18.000 --> 05:19.840
+In order to have this kind of conversation
+
+05:19.840 --> 05:20.960
+and still get things done,
+
+05:20.960 --> 05:23.520
+we need a pretty rigorous structure in place
+
+05:23.520 --> 05:26.000
+at the bigger scale of the meetings.
+
+05:26.000 --> 05:27.120
+This involves both
+
+05:27.120 --> 05:31.280
+a timetable for the meetings
+
+05:31.280 --> 00:05:35.119
+and some review and planning processes.
+
+05:35.120 --> 05:36.320
+[Joe]: Just to say a little bit more
+
+05:36.320 --> 05:40.160
+about the timetable, if you could go back,
+
+05:40.160 --> 05:42.320
+the meetings are generally following
+
+05:42.320 --> 05:45.199
+a structure as we have up on the screen
+
+05:45.199 --> 05:46.479
+of informal check-ins
+
+05:46.479 --> 05:48.400
+followed by any announcements,
+
+05:48.400 --> 05:50.960
+and then two topics, at most two topics,
+
+05:50.960 --> 05:52.560
+with a break in the middle.
+
+05:52.560 --> 05:54.800
+The whole thing takes about two hours,
+
+05:54.800 --> 05:56.400
+and we meet weekly.
+
+05:56.400 --> 05:58.160
+The consistency of these meetings
+
+05:58.160 --> 05:58.800
+is really important
+
+05:58.800 --> 00:06:00.719
+for how the group works.
+
+06:00.720 --> 06:02.560
+[Ray]: At at the end of every meeting,
+
+06:02.560 --> 06:03.600
+we ask and answer
+
+06:03.600 --> 06:04.800
+a series of questions
+
+06:04.800 --> 06:07.120
+adapted from the ‘After Action Review’
+
+06:07.120 --> 06:08.880
+developed by the United States Army
+
+06:08.880 --> 06:10.800
+in their training programs,
+
+06:10.800 --> 06:13.840
+and also used in some business contexts.
+
+06:13.840 --> 06:15.759
+The adaptation we use here
+
+06:15.759 --> 06:17.440
+came out of the Peeragogy project,
+
+06:17.440 --> 06:19.600
+which some of us have been involved with
+
+06:19.600 --> 06:22.160
+since 2012, and it's designed to be
+
+06:22.160 --> 06:24.560
+less hierarchical than the army's review.
+
+06:24.560 --> 06:26.960
+By writing down and sharing these reviews,
+
+06:26.960 --> 06:28.240
+we create a resource
+
+06:28.240 --> 06:29.600
+for further peer learning
+
+06:29.600 --> 00:06:32.239
+later down the line.
+
+06:32.240 --> 06:33.280
+[Joe]: So, specifically,
+
+06:33.280 --> 06:34.560
+every six weeks or so,
+
+06:34.560 --> 06:35.840
+we look at the transcripts
+
+06:35.840 --> 06:37.360
+from the previous action reviews
+
+06:37.360 --> 06:39.120
+using a four-layered framework
+
+06:39.120 --> 06:41.199
+that comes from future studies,
+
+06:41.199 --> 06:42.560
+and we use this to better understand
+
+06:42.560 --> 06:43.759
+the underlying themes
+
+06:43.759 --> 06:44.880
+that surface in the reviews
+
+06:44.880 --> 06:46.479
+and to develop the deeper motivations
+
+06:46.479 --> 06:48.160
+for ongoing work together.
+
+06:48.160 --> 06:49.680
+This helps us get a big-picture sense
+
+06:49.680 --> 06:50.720
+of where we're going,
+
+06:50.720 --> 06:51.840
+and we can keep that up to date
+
+06:51.840 --> 06:52.720
+at a slower pace
+
+06:52.720 --> 06:54.479
+than we do in the weekly meetings.
+
+06:54.479 --> 06:55.759
+This also helps us tie our work
+
+06:55.759 --> 06:56.880
+into a broader context
+
+06:56.880 --> 06:57.759
+and gives us some hope
+
+06:57.759 --> 06:59.919
+that over time we can contribute to
+
+06:59.919 --> 00:07:02.318
+solving big problems.
+
+07:02.319 --> 07:02.880
+[Ray]: Going back
+
+07:02.880 --> 07:04.880
+to solving larger problems.
+
+07:04.880 --> 07:06.560
+When we carry out the analysis,
+
+07:06.560 --> 07:08.400
+we don't just think about what happened
+
+07:08.400 --> 07:09.440
+at previous meetings,
+
+07:09.440 --> 07:11.520
+but we also take a longer view,
+
+07:11.520 --> 07:12.960
+thinking about things such as
+
+07:12.960 --> 07:15.680
+structuring a community of collaborators,
+
+07:15.680 --> 07:16.960
+or building platforms
+
+07:16.960 --> 07:18.720
+for scientific research.
+
+07:18.720 --> 07:20.080
+We want to think about how
+
+07:20.080 --> 07:21.120
+what we have been doing
+
+07:21.120 --> 07:23.599
+fits into broader historical patterns
+
+07:23.599 --> 07:24.720
+and trends.
+
+07:24.720 --> 07:27.120
+In the past, the pattern is a
+
+07:27.120 --> 07:28.240
+historical pattern;
+
+07:28.240 --> 07:30.000
+in the present, we contextualize
+
+07:30.000 --> 07:32.400
+what we learned about designed futures;
+
+07:32.400 --> 07:34.639
+towards the future, we use these patterns
+
+07:34.639 --> 07:37.440
+to augment our big-picture analysis
+
+07:37.440 --> 07:38.800
+with the next steps.
+
+07:38.800 --> 00:07:42.879
+This helps keep us on track.
+
+07:42.880 --> 07:44.720
+[Noorah]: Okay. So we have been working on
+
+07:44.720 --> 07:46.160
+several projects: a paper
+
+07:46.160 --> 07:47.280
+for the pattern conference
+
+07:47.280 --> 07:48.240
+mentioned earlier,
+
+07:48.240 --> 07:50.080
+a workshop, and a user study,
+
+07:50.080 --> 07:51.280
+and we'll say a little bit more
+
+07:51.280 --> 00:07:53.598
+about these.
+
+07:53.599 --> 07:56.319
+We co-authored a paper
+
+07:56.319 --> 07:57.919
+that touches on all of the topics
+
+07:57.919 --> 07:58.960
+we mentioned earlier
+
+07:58.960 --> 08:01.120
+and presented it at the leading conference
+
+08:01.120 --> 08:02.080
+on Design Patterns
+
+08:02.080 --> 08:04.000
+for programs and programming.
+
+08:04.000 --> 08:09.520
+One of the case studies in the paper
+
+08:09.520 --> 08:12.960
+sums up the way we work in ERG.
+
+08:12.960 --> 08:16.000
+The paper puts ERG in context
+
+08:16.000 --> 08:17.520
+with other peer learning communities,
+
+08:17.520 --> 08:18.960
+and we aim to describe
+
+08:18.960 --> 08:20.160
+our way of working
+
+08:20.160 --> 08:22.720
+in a way that others would find accessible
+
+08:22.720 --> 00:08:24.559
+and potentially useful.
+
+08:24.560 --> 08:25.680
+We are also developing
+
+08:25.680 --> 08:27.039
+an interactive workshop
+
+08:27.039 --> 08:28.800
+based on the ideas in the paper,
+
+08:28.800 --> 08:31.039
+which we piloted at the PLoP conference.
+
+08:31.039 --> 08:32.479
+Our intent with the workshop
+
+08:32.479 --> 08:34.800
+was to build a method
+
+08:34.800 --> 08:36.240
+for rapid problem solving,
+
+08:36.240 --> 08:37.839
+which could, at least in principle,
+
+08:37.839 --> 08:40.159
+expand beyond the workshop setting
+
+08:40.159 --> 08:41.839
+to distributed networks.
+
+08:41.839 --> 08:44.080
+The workshop involves made-up roles,
+
+08:44.080 --> 08:45.440
+like a kaiju communicator
+
+08:45.440 --> 08:46.800
+who helps understand problems
+
+08:46.800 --> 08:47.839
+as they arise.
+
+08:47.839 --> 08:49.760
+We also realize that it has given us
+
+08:49.760 --> 08:51.279
+a lot of wealth for thinking about
+
+08:51.279 --> 00:08:57.518
+the roles we take on in our weekly meetings.
+
+08:57.519 --> 08:59.920
+[Ray]: Free software may be lacking
+
+08:59.920 --> 09:01.200
+on ‘user’ aspects.
+
+09:01.200 --> 09:02.720
+People too often program
+
+09:02.720 --> 09:04.320
+to scratch their own itches,
+
+09:04.320 --> 09:06.720
+and assume others will do the same.
+
+09:06.720 --> 09:09.360
+To deal with this, we did several things.
+
+09:09.360 --> 09:11.040
+We looked at user experience
+
+09:11.040 --> 09:12.160
+and development together
+
+09:12.160 --> 09:13.760
+to see how the process went
+
+09:13.760 --> 09:15.440
+and where the gaps might be.
+
+09:15.440 --> 09:17.600
+We compared Emacs with other platforms,
+
+09:17.600 --> 09:19.279
+not just a technical level,
+
+09:19.279 --> 09:21.440
+but also at the user experience level.
+
+09:21.440 --> 09:22.640
+We had guest sessions,
+
+09:22.640 --> 09:25.440
+where we've started to gather user stories.
+
+09:25.440 --> 09:26.880
+Building on these conversations,
+
+09:26.880 --> 09:28.480
+we would like to do more research
+
+09:28.480 --> 09:29.839
+in all these topics,
+
+09:29.839 --> 09:30.959
+and eventually be able to
+
+09:30.959 --> 09:32.160
+say something like:
+
+09:32.160 --> 09:34.160
+‘If you are someone who does X,
+
+09:34.160 --> 09:35.279
+these are the packages
+
+09:35.279 --> 00:09:38.479
+that would work for you.’
+
+09:38.480 --> 09:40.640
+[Joe]: Putting these ideas into practice,
+
+09:40.640 --> 09:42.880
+our PLoP paper and the plans it contains
+
+09:42.880 --> 09:43.680
+become a /template/
+
+09:43.680 --> 09:44.720
+for some of the other things
+
+09:44.720 --> 09:45.600
+we want to work on
+
+09:45.600 --> 09:46.880
+as we go forward.
+
+09:46.880 --> 09:49.120
+If we imagine things in 2-3 years,
+
+09:49.120 --> 09:49.920
+what would it actually take
+
+09:49.920 --> 09:52.240
+to realize the vision from that paper?
+
+09:52.240 --> 09:53.200
+Thinking about the future:
+
+09:53.200 --> 09:54.480
+this is one of the main reasons why
+
+09:54.480 --> 09:55.839
+we want to share these ideas
+
+09:55.839 --> 09:56.800
+and invite other people
+
+09:56.800 --> 09:58.160
+into this way of working.
+
+09:58.160 --> 09:59.600
+There's no way we can actually achieve
+
+09:59.600 --> 10:00.560
+everything in our vision
+
+10:00.560 --> 10:02.160
+if we work all by ourselves.
+
+10:02.160 --> 10:03.200
+What we've been focusing on
+
+10:03.200 --> 10:05.120
+in Season Zero of the Emacs Research Group
+
+10:05.120 --> 10:06.640
+is methods that people can use
+
+10:06.640 --> 00:10:08.559
+to organize their own research groups.
+
+10:08.560 --> 10:10.000
+We decided to share this talk
+
+10:10.000 --> 10:12.079
+so that folks can learn from our community.
+
+10:12.079 --> 10:13.040
+Our goal has been to share
+
+10:13.040 --> 10:14.000
+how we've been doing things,
+
+10:14.000 --> 10:14.959
+and we hope this information
+
+10:14.959 --> 10:16.079
+is useful for you
+
+10:16.079 --> 10:18.800
+in your own communities and collaborations.
+
+10:18.800 --> 10:19.262
+Thank you.
+
+10:19.262 --> 10:20.279
+[captions by speakers and sachac]