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+WEBVTT chapters by sachac
+
+00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.559
+Hopefully the internet goes well. It's a nice Monday
+
+00:00:07.560 --> 00:00:31.999
+morning here in Tokyo.
+
+00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:37.879
+Are we connected all right?
+
+00:00:37.880 --> 00:00:40.879
+Okay, I seem to be struggling still with my audio. 1 2nd
+
+00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:44.519
+calling. Yeah, you were muted for a moment there. Okay,
+
+00:00:44.520 --> 00:00:49.959
+there we are. Okay. All right. Sorry about that. I got a mute
+
+00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:55.119
+out my, my back office chatter. That's kind of distracting
+
+00:00:55.120 --> 00:00:58.079
+me a little bit. All right. Sorry. I may have lost the plot a
+
+00:00:58.080 --> 00:01:04.919
+little bit. I think I did. However, find the 1st question.
+
+00:01:04.920 --> 00:01:09.919
+I got pretty distracted by conversation backstage. Yeah,
+
+NOTE Q: When I tried comparing transducers.el to cl-lib and dash (benchmark-compiled), I got the following results
+
+00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:15.879
+no problem. So the first question here, someone's asking,
+
+00:01:15.880 --> 00:01:22.279
+when they first tried comparing transducers.el, the cl-lib
+
+00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:27.959
+and Dash bookmark compiled, and they give some detailed
+
+00:01:27.960 --> 00:01:32.479
+results we're sharing on the stream. Um, they expected
+
+00:01:32.480 --> 00:01:36.679
+transducers to be slower than CL loop, but faster than CL lib
+
+00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:41.119
+or dash. However, this isn't the case, any idea why. And so
+
+00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:43.639
+I'll, I'll come back into their data to show there's they're
+
+00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:48.279
+showing, um, you know, there's not a lot of detail on the, on
+
+00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.199
+the, on the use case here. We could certainly click through
+
+00:01:52.200 --> 00:02:02.559
+it, do it.
+
+00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:06.999
+Oh, I should've waited to zoom until I find my spot here.
+
+00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:13.639
+There we are.
+
+00:02:13.640 --> 00:02:18.599
+All right, so there's our example.
+
+00:02:18.600 --> 00:02:23.759
+Looks like we are doing a simple map and a sum.
+
+00:02:23.760 --> 00:02:29.239
+Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, question about
+
+00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:36.279
+performance. So a case like this, a simple, I just want to rip
+
+00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:40.279
+through a collection of numbers and sum them all. That's a
+
+00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:44.679
+case where basically loop is always going to win because
+
+00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:51.319
+loop is optimized. This is true in both Emacs Lisp and in
+
+00:02:51.320 --> 00:02:56.039
+Common Lisp. For a case like this where you're not really
+
+00:02:56.040 --> 00:03:02.399
+doing two nested of chained calls, like you don't have many
+
+00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:05.839
+sort of what I was compositional steps. If you're just
+
+00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:09.999
+ripping through a collection of numbers, loop is always
+
+00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:15.559
+going to win. Transducers kind of shines when you have to do
+
+00:03:15.560 --> 00:03:19.639
+things that loop can't in terms of expressing yourself. So
+
+00:03:19.640 --> 00:03:22.559
+there are lots of different transducers that you can chain
+
+00:03:22.560 --> 00:03:27.079
+together. And in that case, you're kind of prioritizing
+
+00:03:27.080 --> 00:03:33.039
+developer time and developer happiness because you're
+
+00:03:33.040 --> 00:03:36.399
+able to yourself more clearly, whereas sometimes those
+
+00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:40.679
+kind of algorithms can get very hairy if you're just using
+
+00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:45.399
+loop. Now that sounds like I'm moving the goalposts, and
+
+00:03:45.400 --> 00:03:48.639
+there's really no excuse for these things not being as
+
+00:03:48.640 --> 00:03:54.559
+performant as possible. In this specific case, my guess is
+
+00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:57.759
+that the transducers is slower because it has to do a whole
+
+00:03:57.760 --> 00:04:03.239
+bunch of like inner function calls in order to actually do
+
+00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:09.239
+the adding and the collecting. So there's a lot of stuff that
+
+00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.119
+just the raw loop doesn't have to do, which transducers
+
+00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:20.439
+does. And so in this case, that's why it would be slower.
+
+00:04:20.440 --> 00:04:29.079
+All right, makes sense.
+
+00:04:29.080 --> 00:04:36.239
+Um... I cannot comment against Dash. And also a reminder
+
+00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.159
+that transducers both in CL and in Emacs Lisp here doesn't
+
+00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:44.919
+attempt to do any, you know, fun, you know, inner rewriting
+
+00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:48.239
+or, you know, what's called an Haskell fusion. Like if you
+
+00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:51.359
+have two different map steps, like in a row, it's not gonna
+
+00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.159
+see that and somehow fuse them internally. It's a fairly, in
+
+00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:59.679
+that sense, the implementation is just as is.
+
+00:04:59.680 --> 00:05:04.159
+to make it you know as raw fast as possible. The idea being
+
+00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:12.839
+that ergonomics is more important up front. Yeah, that's
+
+00:05:12.840 --> 00:05:17.519
+kind of a whole fascinating sub-panel, right? My theme this
+
+00:05:17.520 --> 00:05:19.799
+conference has been, oh, all these different things we
+
+00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:24.039
+should try to get sub-panels going for and use that. Maybe
+
+00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:29.039
+fill in the dev track or even have a third track or whatever.
+
+00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:31.519
+I'm not that concerned about the logistics of squeezing
+
+00:05:31.520 --> 00:05:38.519
+into the schedule so much. But anyway, interesting, I mean,
+
+00:05:38.520 --> 00:05:40.839
+to say.
+
+NOTE Q: Do you know of any theoretical texts on transducers?
+
+00:05:40.840 --> 00:05:47.799
+Did we already speak to theoretical texts? No, right? No,
+
+00:05:47.800 --> 00:05:53.399
+let's continue. Okay, so another question from the group.
+
+00:05:53.400 --> 00:05:58.879
+Do you know of any theoretical texts on transducers? My
+
+00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:01.959
+readme, particularly of the Common Lisp implementation,
+
+00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:06.159
+is the theoretical text on transducers. Rich Hickey has
+
+00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.439
+some YouTube videos which also come close. I mean, he
+
+00:06:10.440 --> 00:06:14.799
+invented the things. But in terms of having a full
+
+00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:21.559
+explanation of everything, it's my readme and it's also
+
+00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:23.319
+the...
+
+00:06:23.320 --> 00:06:28.559
+The info manual of Guile Scheme, their documentation on
+
+00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:34.199
+Surfy 171 is what I used to learn transducers and to
+
+00:06:34.200 --> 00:06:38.399
+re-implement them in other LISPs. So if you just want like a
+
+00:06:38.400 --> 00:06:41.639
+document explaining them, MyReadMe is actually the
+
+00:06:41.640 --> 00:06:46.959
+clearest that I've found. Awesome. Okay, next question.
+
+00:06:46.960 --> 00:06:50.119
+And I'm sorry, you gave a name, you referred to somebody's
+
+00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:55.439
+videos. Rich Hickey, the inventor of Clojure. Rich Hickey,
+
+00:06:55.440 --> 00:07:00.399
+thank you. Hope I got the spelling right, and maybe somebody
+
+00:07:00.400 --> 00:07:04.719
+can catch that and fix it. If not, I'll reach on. Thank you.
+
+NOTE Q: Did you think about [compiler features, macros] viz your cl, fennel, elisp, porting of your transducers?
+
+00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.239
+Reach on to the next question. Waters (Lazy Series in
+
+00:07:08.240 --> 00:07:12.799
+Lisp, late 70s) said this should have been done as an
+
+00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.799
+additional compiler feature in compilers, but if not, must
+
+00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.439
+be a macro package. Do you think about that vis your CL,
+
+00:07:21.440 --> 00:07:27.519
+Fennel, Elisp, porting of transducers? I think that
+
+00:07:27.520 --> 00:07:28.519
+there's definitely
+
+00:07:28.520 --> 00:07:36.519
+some Galaxy Brain Lisp author out there is probably smart
+
+00:07:36.520 --> 00:07:40.599
+enough to turn a bunch of this stuff into macros. I believe
+
+00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:47.119
+that's how the common Lisp library series works. It sees
+
+00:07:47.120 --> 00:07:52.079
+that you were calling map or whatever, and it actually knows
+
+00:07:52.080 --> 00:07:56.639
+that that's a special macro key. in order to be fast. I did not
+
+00:07:56.640 --> 00:08:01.839
+do that. The implementation as I have it is very simple and
+
+00:08:01.840 --> 00:08:05.759
+simplicity shouldn't be underestimated.
+
+00:08:05.760 --> 00:08:13.559
+I love it. What a nice succinct answer. Even I can manage to
+
+00:08:13.560 --> 00:08:16.578
+type that out as I scroll us to the next question.
+
+NOTE Q: Does t-buffer-read provide a lazy stream that's linewise, or charwise, or do something else entirely?
+
+00:08:16.579 --> 00:08:24.079
+So, does t-buffer-read provide a lazy stream
+
+00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:28.359
+that's line-wise or character-wise or do something else
+
+00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:29.018
+entirely?
+
+00:08:29.019 --> 00:08:31.587
+Okay, there are two functions. I showed
+
+00:08:31.588 --> 00:08:35.073
+t-buffer-read. There's also one called t-file-read,
+
+00:08:35.074 --> 00:08:38.682
+which does that. You actually have the buffer open,
+
+00:08:38.683 --> 00:08:40.239
+it's much more clever.
+
+00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:45.999
+t-buffer-read, I believe, is simpler. As long as you have an
+
+00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:52.079
+Emacs list, what is called the current buffer active. I'm
+
+00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.679
+fairly sure you're able to just call next-line on it. I don't
+
+00:08:56.680 --> 00:08:59.479
+believe that I'm doing anything fancy there, looking for
+
+00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:03.999
+line ends. I believe I'm just grabbing the next line and then
+
+00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:09.423
+processing that line-wise. Very good.
+
+NOTE Q: Can the Elisp library be combined with the stream.el API or seq in general?
+
+00:09:09.424 --> 00:09:17.303
+Can the Elisp library be combined with the stream.el API
+
+00:09:17.304 --> 00:09:22.830
+or seq in general? I would say that these libraries
+
+00:09:22.831 --> 00:09:27.596
+are completely orthogonal. You saw that everything
+
+00:09:27.597 --> 00:09:29.279
+was prefixed by t-.
+
+00:09:29.280 --> 00:09:36.879
+Basically, transducer is its own zone. However, one thing
+
+00:09:36.880 --> 00:09:40.239
+that I do in the common lisp, which is theoretically
+
+00:09:40.240 --> 00:09:44.359
+possible for the Emacs Lisp as well, is kind of like little
+
+00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:48.919
+shim libraries. So I provide, at least for Common Lisp, for a
+
+00:09:48.920 --> 00:09:51.799
+number of, you know, popular sort of third-party
+
+00:09:51.800 --> 00:09:55.239
+collection types, I provide an ability to use them as
+
+00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:59.559
+sources. Maybe that's what you mean. Like
+
+00:09:59.560 --> 00:10:04.439
+the built-in containers for Emacs Lisp are already
+
+00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:06.519
+supported. So, you know, a vector hash table and so on.
+
+00:10:06.520 --> 00:10:13.719
+make sense so i think what i heard there is yeah go ahead
+
+00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:17.879
+please sorry in terms of mixing like you know like for
+
+00:10:17.880 --> 00:10:22.599
+instance you know like seq-map used in transducers
+
+00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:28.119
+we'll put it that way
+
+00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.879
+i was just gonna say i think it um it it sounds like you're
+
+00:10:31.880 --> 00:10:37.199
+saying Yeah, probably they are actually. We don't know yet
+
+00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.239
+about any places where they don't play nicely together. So
+
+00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:45.399
+quite possibly so. We can use sequence and transducers
+
+00:10:45.400 --> 00:10:49.959
+together, for example. As a source potentially, yeah. It's
+
+00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:54.159
+very easy because that just uses defgeneric. As long as you
+
+00:10:54.160 --> 00:10:57.719
+have a new, like if you have a new collection type, as long as
+
+00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:01.519
+you implement a def method for it somewhere, it'll just
+
+00:11:01.520 --> 00:11:12.159
+magically work with this library. That's the magic of...
+
+00:11:12.160 --> 00:11:18.439
+Yeah, as an Emacs user enjoying, you know, sort of the
+
+00:11:18.440 --> 00:11:21.959
+renaissance of new features it's had, or sorry, Emacs ERC
+
+00:11:21.960 --> 00:11:27.799
+user for chat. I've seen a lot of awesome stuff get done in the
+
+00:11:27.800 --> 00:11:32.119
+last couple of years with generic set. JP never was working
+
+00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:36.679
+on that. And like, that's just making me my eyes pop and go,
+
+00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:39.279
+wow, that does make a whole lot of things simpler, doesn't
+
+00:11:39.280 --> 00:11:44.279
+it? I think we're a lot of us running into generics and how
+
+00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:47.542
+that solves problems in Emacs.
+
+NOTE Q: How does one debug a t-comp expression? Can you single step and see intermediate results of the different statements you declare?
+
+00:11:47.543 --> 00:11:50.279
+How does one debug a t-comp
+
+00:11:50.280 --> 00:11:55.119
+expression? Can you talk in terms of single step,
+
+00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:58.479
+step-by-step, intermediate results of the different
+
+00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:08.759
+statements you declare? Yes. So in Common Lisp, this is
+
+00:12:08.760 --> 00:12:12.919
+and sly stickers and things like that. In Emacs Lisp, it's a
+
+00:12:12.920 --> 00:12:19.559
+little bit, shall we say, more difficult. For step
+
+00:12:19.560 --> 00:12:20.479
+debugging,
+
+00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:25.679
+so what comp does is comp internally, it should be a macro,
+
+00:12:25.680 --> 00:12:28.839
+but currently it's not, although there's work to improve
+
+00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:33.559
+that. It's doing an internal reduce and it's turning into
+
+00:12:33.560 --> 00:12:37.479
+one giant kind of composed lambda inside. So I don't know if
+
+00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:42.999
+step debugging would work there. However, we do have one
+
+00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:47.439
+function called log, which lets you inspect intermediate
+
+00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.759
+results. So you could technically use that to inject
+
+00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:54.279
+yourself somewhere into the transduction chain and, you
+
+00:12:54.280 --> 00:12:57.239
+know, halt or, you know, inspect the current value, et
+
+00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:01.119
+cetera. So you get a bunch of questions lined up. I think
+
+00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:04.199
+we're coming up, uh, within our last five minutes, uh,
+
+00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.919
+before some declared, uh, reset time that we have
+
+00:13:07.920 --> 00:13:11.919
+internally to just roll our closing credits, so to speak.
+
+00:13:11.920 --> 00:13:14.839
+Um, not that I would want to cut the question and answer
+
+00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:18.399
+short, but I might have to step away personally. But, um, as
+
+00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:21.519
+we discussed before, you can just kind of run the QA, however
+
+00:13:21.520 --> 00:13:24.879
+you want here. Um, or, or take questions offline if you'd
+
+00:13:24.880 --> 00:13:27.999
+like to answer them off the pad. And I just want to say one more
+
+00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:30.959
+time. Kitt said it managed later. Thanks again for your talk
+
+00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.759
+for dedicating the time to this live QA. And I think we can see
+
+00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:40.279
+by the many questions that are here. So I'll try to kind of
+
+00:13:40.280 --> 00:13:42.959
+flip us through as many of them as I can with our last couple of
+
+00:13:42.960 --> 00:13:48.399
+minutes, if that sounds good. Alternately, this might be a
+
+00:13:48.400 --> 00:13:52.079
+good time if you have kind of wrap it up, final thoughts, as
+
+00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:58.399
+Leo Sopanda saying. By all means, have at. Sure, thanks a
+
+00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:01.639
+lot. I'd say that if you are still curious, check out the
+
+00:14:01.640 --> 00:14:05.159
+read-me's because those have a lot of information,
+
+00:14:05.160 --> 00:14:09.519
+including a full description of the API and everything
+
+00:14:09.520 --> 00:14:10.719
+that's available.
+
+00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:16.599
+Otherwise, just give them a shot. Using these things is the
+
+00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:21.639
+best way to learn them, of course. I use them everywhere,
+
+00:14:21.640 --> 00:14:24.719
+basically, all across my Emacs list and all across my common
+
+00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:29.839
+list now. They get a lot of mileage. All right. You're
+
+00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:33.639
+speaking our language now. As Emacs users, all our ears poke
+
+00:14:33.640 --> 00:14:36.039
+up when you say, I'm getting a lot of mileage. I'm using it
+
+00:14:36.040 --> 00:14:39.879
+across everything. Every Emacs user has a story that
+
+00:14:39.880 --> 00:14:42.494
+harmonizes with that, I think.
+
+NOTE Q: Is there a path for transducers to enable elisp processing of otherwise overly large datasets as if just normal Emacs \"buffers\" (i.e. just pulling one thing at a time so essentially stream-like under the hood but buffer-like in interface), with none of the usual perf issues with a traditional buffer structure?
+
+00:14:42.495 --> 00:14:44.519
+So our next question, is
+
+00:14:44.520 --> 00:14:48.599
+there a path for transducers to enable Elisp processing or
+
+00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:53.999
+otherwise overly large data sets as if just normal Emacs
+
+00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.959
+buffers, i.e. just pulling one thing at a time. So
+
+00:14:56.960 --> 00:15:00.719
+essentially stream like under the hood, but buffer like an
+
+00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:03.519
+interface. I think that makes sense to me. with none of the
+
+00:15:03.520 --> 00:15:07.799
+usual performance issues, like as if, you know, the history
+
+00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:11.399
+with long files is what that brings to mind, I guess. Yes, so
+
+00:15:11.400 --> 00:15:15.799
+as you saw before, the withBufferRead sort of stream
+
+00:15:15.800 --> 00:15:19.879
+function does have to have the actual buffer in memory, and
+
+00:15:19.880 --> 00:15:22.679
+then you can go really fast. But there's another one with
+
+00:15:22.680 --> 00:15:26.839
+file read. Now, again, I haven't tried to optimize that yet.
+
+00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:30.119
+But in theory, it is able to read right from the underlying
+
+00:15:30.120 --> 00:15:32.839
+file without having to open it as a buffer first.
+
+00:15:32.840 --> 00:15:39.199
+Awesome. Ari, the performance issues mentioned, and that
+
+00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.479
+popped up recently in the list and forums, to what extent
+
+00:15:43.480 --> 00:15:46.959
+does tail call optimization and other mechanisms like
+
+00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.159
+inlining, garbage collection friendliness, and so on,
+
+00:15:50.160 --> 00:15:55.159
+could these alleviate issues, enable their use at little to
+
+00:15:55.160 --> 00:15:58.439
+no extra costs? I feel like we're leading the witness here,
+
+00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.279
+but I'm sure you see where we're going. Yeah, no problem. So
+
+00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:03.799
+in terms of tail optimization, that's already happening
+
+00:16:03.800 --> 00:16:09.199
+because the internal loop mechanism is using CL labels. And
+
+00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.199
+in Emacs Lisp, CL labels is just a macro that is like
+
+00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:16.079
+extremely tail recursive. So that's very, very fast. It's
+
+00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.039
+not tail recursive, but it's using like goto. So it's
+
+00:16:19.040 --> 00:16:22.519
+extremely, extremely fast, like the raw looping of it. So,
+
+00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:24.359
+okay, well then where does the slowness come from? It's
+
+00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:26.439
+probably coming from those lambdas and it's probably
+
+00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:32.399
+coming from, uh, like extra consing, extra allocation
+
+00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:35.999
+somewhere, which is, um, sort of what you were, what you're
+
+00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.519
+referring to with the GC friendliness. So perhaps there's
+
+00:16:38.520 --> 00:16:45.199
+some, um, um, yeah, some, like some fusion that I can do to
+
+00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:51.199
+speed it up. Yeah, that just sounds fascinating endlessly.
+
+NOTE Q: Is there an option to read a csv/json and produce an alist or plist instead of a hash table for an entry?
+
+00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:55.559
+Are there options to like read from a CSV, JSON, produce an
+
+00:16:55.560 --> 00:17:01.679
+alist or plist instead of hash table? Absolutely.
+
+00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:06.239
+Yes, I need to double check that, but we can read both CSV and
+
+00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:10.359
+JSON, and you should be able to just turn on the plist option.
+
+00:17:10.360 --> 00:17:14.159
+I will double check, but there's fairly free conversion
+
+00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.039
+between those three types because hash table is not always
+
+00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:22.039
+what you want. And actually, I suspect that slowness that we
+
+00:17:22.040 --> 00:17:24.559
+saw in the demo before was because it was allocating hash
+
+00:17:24.560 --> 00:17:29.239
+tables for every, like, all of the 50,000 lines. And had it
+
+00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:32.599
+been a plist, it would have been faster. Interesting, so
+
+00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:35.399
+maybe there's opportunities even if you end up with hash
+
+00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.799
+lists, but then they're shared strategically and you pay
+
+00:17:38.800 --> 00:17:42.039
+the cost of a little extra layer in there that buckets them
+
+00:17:42.040 --> 00:17:46.439
+together the way that we might group files by the first four
+
+00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:50.519
+characters in the file name once we've got a million files.
+
+NOTE Q: Is the common lisp version ready for 'production' use? Is it complete enough and the API stable enough?
+
+00:17:50.520 --> 00:17:54.479
+Anyway, is the Common Lisp version ready for production
+
+00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:59.959
+use? Do you want to comment on API stability? I use it all the
+
+00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:04.159
+time. I'm writing a game in Common Lisp right now, and I'm
+
+00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:08.559
+using transducers everywhere in there, and it doesn't even
+
+00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:11.119
+make a dent in the frame rate, and I'm using them
+
+00:18:11.120 --> 00:18:15.359
+extensively. Okay, well, I'll just read from chat. Thanks
+
+00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:17.476
+so much for the answers.
+
+NOTE Q: Do we need a pre-written \"t-\" version for every already existing reducing function like + or is there a function to construct them from already defined reducer 2-arg functions?
+
+00:18:17.477 --> 00:18:20.439
+Do we need a pre-written or t-minus
+
+00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:24.959
+version for every already existing reducing function,
+
+00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:30.239
+plus, as an example? Or is there a function that constructs,
+
+00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.559
+in my, I'm going to add the word, auto-visualifies them
+
+00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:37.319
+already, auto-defines or something, or just generically
+
+00:18:37.320 --> 00:18:42.239
+wraps function calls some way? already defined. This is
+
+00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:49.399
+basically fold. Some built-in functions like plus already
+
+00:18:49.400 --> 00:18:52.599
+function like reducers. It's a coincidence that they do
+
+00:18:52.600 --> 00:18:56.799
+that. But there's an example in the README. Max is one that
+
+00:18:56.800 --> 00:19:00.559
+does not act like that. For instance, maybe I could screen
+
+00:19:00.560 --> 00:19:06.479
+share later, but if you just type in plus one, If you call plus
+
+00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.519
+one in Emacs or Common Lisp, you get back one. It actually
+
+00:19:10.520 --> 00:19:15.119
+only needs one argument. If you only type plus, it actually
+
+00:19:15.120 --> 00:19:20.839
+gives you zero. Plus and multiple satisfy the API of
+
+00:19:20.840 --> 00:19:24.759
+reducers. But if you have one that doesn't, like the max
+
+00:19:24.760 --> 00:19:28.759
+function, and similarly, just type in plus as a function
+
+00:19:28.760 --> 00:19:32.359
+call, just plus with nothing else, and you'll see. No, as a
+
+00:19:32.360 --> 00:19:37.199
+function. zero will come out. This basically means it
+
+00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:43.159
+satisfies the reducer API. But a function like max does not.
+
+00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:48.399
+If you just type in max and then one, it won't work. Pardon me,
+
+00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:54.239
+it did. But if you type in max with nothing else, it wouldn't
+
+00:19:54.240 --> 00:19:55.239
+work.
+
+00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.599
+Hence, we have to wrap it in something like fold. I would say
+
+00:19:58.600 --> 00:20:01.919
+go look at the fold function. Right, which that I won't do.
+
+00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:04.839
+I'm not that well enough prepped. Darn it. Leo would have
+
+00:20:04.840 --> 00:20:08.399
+been here, but oh, well, you got me. Yeah, no problem. But
+
+00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:16.879
+fold is sort of the ultimate reducer function. Great. So is
+
+00:20:16.880 --> 00:20:26.319
+there, where was I? Here we go. We're way past this, right? So
+
+NOTE Q: Is the compelling argument for transducers is that it's a better abstraction?
+
+00:20:26.320 --> 00:20:34.279
+is the compiling argument for transducers that it's a
+
+00:20:34.280 --> 00:20:38.879
+better abstraction? It seems like there are concerns,
+
+00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.399
+objections, while problematically valid focused on
+
+00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:45.679
+implementation. Can this abstraction allow for advances
+
+00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:50.559
+in implementation? Yes, what I've basically done is mostly
+
+00:20:50.560 --> 00:20:55.999
+followed the pattern of usage that exists in Clojure and in
+
+00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:01.159
+Scheme's SERP 171. In theory, the service level API is the
+
+00:21:01.160 --> 00:21:04.999
+same no matter where you're using this, and that's the idea.
+
+00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.039
+If you learn them in one list, you should be able to use them
+
+00:21:08.040 --> 00:21:12.879
+everywhere. Then what it's actually doing under the hood is
+
+00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:18.359
+free for us to change around. My implementations are mostly
+
+00:21:18.360 --> 00:21:23.679
+based on the scheme with a few alterations here and there.
+
+00:21:23.680 --> 00:21:27.079
+And in the Common Lisp case, like adding some Common Lisp
+
+00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:27.959
+isms
+
+00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:34.759
+to improve usage like UX a little bit. But overall, we are
+
+00:21:34.760 --> 00:21:38.959
+free to do whatever we want internally to speed up
+
+00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.439
+performance. I just haven't done that work. Awesome.
+
+00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:47.239
+Awesome. So here's where I have to, where we're getting the
+
+00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.079
+hook. We've just been pulled off the stream. The viewers
+
+00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:54.079
+just saw the crawl by as it sent us over to the other pad where I
+
+00:21:54.080 --> 00:21:57.919
+get to jump on and get involved with that now. But I can't
+
+00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:00.359
+thank you enough, Colin. Would you like me to stop the
+
+00:22:00.360 --> 00:22:03.799
+recording here? Any other comments you'd like to make? Uh,
+
+00:22:03.800 --> 00:22:06.439
+yeah, sure. Like, I mean, I'll stick around for any more live
+
+00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:10.639
+questions. I'm looking at both IRC and, and, um, uh, big blue
+
+00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:13.239
+button here. So if people have more questions, I'll hang
+
+00:22:13.240 --> 00:22:15.959
+around for a bit. I'm going to leave the channel open. I see
+
+00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:17.839
+you do have a few people in here, so I'm just going to go ahead
+
+00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:20.839
+and leave the recording. We can always trim it. Um, trim it
+
+00:22:20.840 --> 00:22:24.279
+up. If you, uh, let us know, Hey, the last 10 minutes weren't
+
+00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:26.999
+anything, you know, or whatever. No, no pressure, no
+
+00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.839
+worries, no mistakes. Thank you. Really appreciate you.
+
+00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:31.959
+Yep. Thanks a lot.
+
+NOTE Q: Question about how the transducers video was made? Did you use Reveal.js? Do you have a pointer to the html hosted presentation? How did you generate the content for Reveal?
+
+00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:48.399
+OK, does anyone else have some questions? I see Mohsen in the
+
+00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.839
+BigBlueButton chat is asking how I made the video. So the
+
+00:22:52.840 --> 00:22:59.079
+presentation itself was done with RevealJS from Org Mode.
+
+00:22:59.080 --> 00:23:03.639
+So as you saw, I had a raw Org Mode buffer, which was
+
+00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:09.319
+which was the presentation itself, which I then just
+
+00:23:09.320 --> 00:23:11.759
+exported with a few certain settings, a few
+
+00:23:11.760 --> 00:23:15.919
+customizations. And then for screen recording, I used OBS,
+
+00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:19.719
+which worked flawlessly on Arch Linux. I used Sway,
+
+00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:23.159
+Wayland, and all of that. So all of that just worked, which
+
+00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:27.999
+was very impressive. Where do the HTML host the
+
+00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:51.959
+presentation? I don't have that presentation hosted
+
+00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:52.599
+anywhere.
+
+00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:59.119
+I'll look at the.
+
+00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:00.079
+I don't see that.
+
+00:24:00.080 --> 00:24:08.159
+Here it is. So we've got the file here as well.
+
+00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:10.999
+Looks like that's it for questions, basically.
+
+00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:14.919
+Yep, and it looks like everyone's moved on for now. Let's
+
+00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:20.159
+see. I mean, it would be so this is answering lounge 81 on IRC.
+
+NOTE Q: From your investigations and tests so far, do you think there would be the necessity of transducers to eventually go down into the C level code for things like using them to solve "infinitely-big" buffer-like interfaces and such?
+
+00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:24.599
+Yeah, like, if we really wanted to go that hardcore, maybe
+
+00:24:24.600 --> 00:24:29.439
+there's some like C level stuff that we could
+
+00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:36.119
+you know, significant demand for such a thing. You know, so
+
+00:24:36.120 --> 00:24:39.239
+far there hasn't been such demand, but maybe there will be in
+
+00:24:39.240 --> 00:24:42.519
+the future. Yeah, perhaps there's some custom stuff we
+
+00:24:42.520 --> 00:24:43.039
+could do.
+
+00:24:43.040 --> 00:24:48.599
+And otherwise, magic one.
+
+00:24:48.600 --> 00:25:00.599
+Well, it looks like some people are quite happy with this.
+
+00:25:00.600 --> 00:25:14.959
+All right. That's about what I've seen. So why don't we end it
+
+00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.839
+here? I think I can control the recording from my end. If I
+
+00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:23.800
+pause it, will that work? All right. Thank you, everyone.