WEBVTT
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And I believe we are live. Hi, Mats, how are you doing? Oh, I'm
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fine. It's a pleasure to see you again after last year. And I
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was trying to think about it. We saw you last year, but didn't
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we see you as well in 2022? Yes. This is my third year. Yeah,
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well, thank you for being a regular at EmacsConf. It's
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always a pleasure to have you chat about hyperbole.
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Although I think you're the only one chatting about
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hyperbole this year compared to last year. Yes,
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unfortunately, that's, yeah, Bob has some family issues.
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So yeah, I'm here, but I'm here. Yeah, but we are happy to have
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you here. And as I was saying before, I'm not sure if you were,
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you had the time to watch the previous talk by Mohsen, you
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know, you had, there were plenty of ideas, I think that were
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very similar to what Hyperbole is trying to do by having
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buttons and having stuff that can be in any other mode that
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would allow you to supplement a coding file with extra
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information. So the ideas are living on. And even though
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hyperbole is one thing, I feel like other packages are also
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taking a lot of inspiration for it. So congratulations on
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being an inspiration, I suppose. Oh, thanks.
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Unfortunately, I have not had any time to watch anything of
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the Emacs conference since apparently my life is like every
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time it's Emacs conference, I do something else. So I've been
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just moving this weekend. So, I'm in a new apartment, but I'm
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connected and everything seems to work okay. So, I can't
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relate to what we said in any of the other talks, I'm afraid.
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So, sorry about that. No, that's okay. No, but that's
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completely fine, because you may be able to watch the talks
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at any point later on, because I'll remind the viewers that
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the talks are currently available on EmacsConf or the
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pre-recorded one. And I think we only had one live talk
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yesterday. All of them are already available with
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subtitles and all the funny stuff that we usually put. So
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that's an invitation for people to watch it. All right. So,
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Mats, before we start with the questions, I see people in the
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process of writing them. Was there anything else you wanted
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to add on top of your presentation? Maybe some supplements
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or whatnot? No, no. Nothing to add. Right. I mean, this year
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was more a bag of tricks, some new stuff that you've
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implemented in Hyperbole. And it's fun because I see the UI
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that you have for some of those modes. And earlier, you
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weren't able to watch those talks, but we were talking a lot
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about Transient and about what it allows you to do in terms of
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interactivity. I'm actually familiar with Transient. No,
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no, no. It's a mode written by Tarsius, so Jonas Bernoulli,
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the person behind Magit, and it's a very nice way to create
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menus for interactive setups. So, if you are interested in
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perhaps augmenting what you currently have with
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Hyperbole, it might be nice to look into Transient because I
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think this is heading towards eventually being merged into
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the core of Emacs. I mean, don't quote me on this. and I'm not
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sure how Tarsius feels about it, but because of the
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adoption, because Magit obviously uses transient, Org is
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trying to make a move towards adopting transient, it feels
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like Hyperbole would do well as well to adopt it because it's
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starting to become a grammar of general UI at this point.
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Yeah, now when you mention it, I remember because I'm a heavy
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user of Magic, of course. So I know Transient that way. I know
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also that people have been complaining about Hyperbole's
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menu system. You know that Hyperbole reach back to
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something like 1993, so it has some maybe things that are not
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modern in that sense. So we have it on the plate to maybe look
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into these things and how we can sort of make things modern,
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etc. Sure, but it's completely fine to take your time. You
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don't necessarily have to follow the latest fads when it
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comes to completion engines or interactive engines like
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Transient is. I'm not actually sure how you would call
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Transient. Is this a UI maker, an interaction engine? I
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don't know. I'll need to ask Tarsius at some point. All
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right. Okay. Okay so let's move on to the questions. We've
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got a couple of them and for the Q&A we'll have about five
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minutes and 30 seconds until we got to lunch. So starting
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with the first question.
NOTE Q: How is the log buffer generated?
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How is the log buffer generated in
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your presentation? But it's a very quick answer to this.
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We recommend at EmacsConf that speakers use the
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interaction-log package, which allows you to have a
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slightly prettier lossage. Lossage being in Emacs how you
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call the comments that you've used. And so if you're
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interested in using this for your own presentation,
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interaction log, and you'll be able to find it fairly
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easily.
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Moving to the next question.
NOTE Q: So, the "select a thing" C-c RET is similar to expand-region? How does it behave in codes (functions, class, ...)
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So the selector thing C-c RET
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is similar to expand-region. How does it behave in
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codes i.e functions or class?
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Well I think it behaves exactly the same. I mean in the
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In any sort of buffer, it might depend on what
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constitutes a word, et cetera, and a sentence in the mood.
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That's how I would say it. Right.
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I'm just, in that sense, I'm just a user of the function. I
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haven't implemented it. I haven't tested it more than that.
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We can do this as a demo that you start with maybe select a
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small thing and by hitting it over and over again, you select
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more and more. Yeah, but it's completely fine sometimes to
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merely be a user of something, you know. It's easy. It's a
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testament to how amazing Emacs is because everything is
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written in Lisp in the background, that as soon as you start
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becoming a maintainer of something, you kind of expect it to
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just be able to understand everything else. And whilst it's
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technically true, the limiter here is the amount of time
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that you can invest looking at the definitions,
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understanding what they do, and sadly we don't have the time
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to do all of this. And especially with Hyperbole, which is
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obviously interacting with major modes in something that
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is more involved than Org mode, for instance. We do have
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another question. So, I know you Hyperbole devs are active
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and interested in sharing and interoperating with other
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Emacs tools.
NOTE Q: What is a recent tool that you find exciting to think about using in combination with Hyperbole, or would like to suggest using in combination with it?
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What is a recent tool that you find exciting to
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think about using in combination with Hyperbole or would
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like to suggest using in combination with it? Well, lately
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we've been focusing a lot of sort of trying to make Hyperbole
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work together with Org Mode and in in a good way so they can
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sort of, I mean... The idea with Hyperbole is not to be better
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than everything else, but more to be like the glue or spider
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that could integrate different modes in a good way together.
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So that being top of everything. And Org is a very
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popular mode, and there are a lot of sub-modes, or whatever
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you can call it, with Org for information management. And we
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would want Hyperbole to work together with Org in a good way,
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so Org users could benefit from Hyperbole as well. So we put
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in some effort in that. But I think there's a lot of way to go.
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There's much more that can be done there as well because
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different modes can easily compete in a bad way in the
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details. So it's a little bit of a tricky thing, especially
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like we have this and how probably we have this M-RET
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for the action production key and that's also used in many
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modes. So we would really, in the best of words, we would like
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Emacs to sort of come to some agreement on using of the
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M-RET in a good way for modes to sort of be able to work and
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live together. Yeah, I mean it's a tough thing to share the
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key bindings and the grammar of interaction between
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packages because you tell me M-RET, I don't want you
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to touch M-RET. For me it's just inserting a new line
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and not adding indentation at the start and everyone is
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going to have their own you know, feelings and thoughts about
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this, so it's really hard to impose any kind of system on
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this. But I'm glad to hear that you're looking into
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interaction with Org Mode because I remember the questions
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we were having on your first conference when people were
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asking, oh I'm so glad that you're talking about Hyperbole
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because the only way I'm interacting with it is when people
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chat about Org Mode and then whenever we had announcements
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about Hyperbole, be it on Reddit, be it on Hacker News,
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people would say, but don't we already have Org Mode? And we
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won't get into the topic again, because I think you've done a
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wonderful job of explaining the differences in previous
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years. And today, the conference, your talk at the
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conference also made it obvious that it's doing something
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that Org Mode is not able to do. But ultimately, being able to
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interface between the two is something great.
NOTE On Ihor as the new maintainer for Org Mode
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And I kind of wanted to ask you as well the question,
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because you haven't
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seen the talk, but yesterday we had the announcement that
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Ihor Radchenko was becoming the new maintainer of Org Mode.
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So obviously, a new maintainer introduces idea of changes
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of, you know, philosophy and strategy and all this. Is this
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somehow on your end with Hyperbole inspiring you perhaps to
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also innovate in a sense to maybe try to change the way some
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things are done?
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Hmm, tricky question. I know, right? Yeah, no, well, I don't
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know.
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I don't know if it answers the question, but we have this
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idea that we meet and work from our point of view. And then we
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pick up maybe details from the outside world. So we're not
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heavily looking into what happens in the rest of the world
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when it comes to Emacs and personal information
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management, etc. But but we do pick up some ideas.
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Sometimes. But yeah, we mostly do hacking and then we want to
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we meet once a week and work on hyperbole and you know, so
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Yeah, that's already very cool. And the reason I'm
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mentioning this is not because I know that you are operating
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in a little bit of a silo when it comes to all of Hyperbole, but
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it's always nice for me personally to see a lot of energy
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being brought in by people. Whenever there's a new major
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version being published, be it Org Mode or be it Hyperbole,
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people are excited. There's a lot of energy in here because
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people are chatting about what you're doing. And that's why
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I find that people, a new maintenanceship for Org Mode
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actually benefits Hyperbole in a way because you get a lot of
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excitement, a lot of people thinking and bringing ideas to
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the table. And I think it's a prime time to actually try I'm
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using the word stealing, but in a very nice way, stealing in
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terms of floss, stealing some ideas and trying to see if you
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can run with them on your own end. And that's also why I was
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suggesting transient, because transient looks like it's
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on its path to reach core at some point. And it would be nice if
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you had the idea early on to integrate with it, because it
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might save you time later on and make your user happy,
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because they can find the same grammar between the Git,
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between org mode, and between hyperbole. All right. Is
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there... I don't think... Yeah, go on, please. Yeah, I just
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want to add on that, that, I mean, as an ultimate goal, in the
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far distance, we would want sort of Hyperbole or hyperbole
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type of functionality be part of the core Emacs. So in that
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sense, it's sort of totally sort of okay with us that
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different packages steal ideas and try to merge them into
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sort of the core system. Yeah. All right, I don't see any more
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questions, so I think we can move to close. Actually, we're
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actually three minutes over time, so I'm glad we managed to
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discuss a little more, but that's fine. Mats, do you have
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any last words? I'll try it out. Okay, well, then, you heard
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it, everyone. Just try it out. Try it out, and if you like it,
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you can join us on Sundays
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Right. And every Sunday, well, if you do not know what to do,
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you know, here's an idea for you. All right. Thank you so
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much, Mats, for coming again to Emacs Conf. And we look
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forward, perhaps, to seeing you next year. Yes. I'll be
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there. Hopefully, I can see some of the presentations live
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then. OK. That's OK. You've got the entire year to catch up on
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the ones you haven't seen this year and next year. But you'll
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have the time to catch another one live. All right. Yes.
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Great! For the folks watching, we will be taking a break, a
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one hour and one minute break. We'll be back at 1 p.m. EST and I
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think if my UTC conversion is working right, it should be 6
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p.m. UTC, so at least in one hour. All right, see you in a bit
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folks! Oh yes, and sorry, I've got a little elf speaking
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in my ears. In case you're interested in discussing further
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hyperbole with Mats, Mats is in the room right now and I see
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people have joined the BBB chat. So if you want to join and
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chat directly with Mats, I'm sure Mats would be more than
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happy to answer your questions. And obviously everything
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has been recorded and will be published later on. But for me,
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I will use the break to rest a little bit and I'll be back in the
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afternoon. All right, see you folks. Bye, take a break.
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Okay.
