WEBVTT
NOTE Opening
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:05.239
Leo? I'm doing well as well and I'm so happy to have seen your
00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:10.719
talk because the interaction with Emacs is always
00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:13.719
something that I find very interesting, and stuff like
00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.839
Transient, stuff like Hydra before, I think they really
00:00:18.840 --> 00:00:22.119
improve the user experience of users, and I'm really glad
00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:24.479
that I've seen you talk. Perhaps just starting with the
00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:27.639
first question, do you have anything else that you'd like to
00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.719
add on your talk? Because we are pretty stringent with the
00:00:30.720 --> 00:00:33.199
amount of time that we give for talks, but is there anything
00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.639
that you would have liked to mention to people that you
00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:42.719
weren't able to fit into the talk? I think probably one of the
00:00:42.720 --> 00:00:46.599
design considerations I've done is that many of the
00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:49.359
commands that I've exposed through my casual interfaces
00:00:49.360 --> 00:00:56.399
have been in Emacs. They've been in there forever, but very
00:00:56.400 --> 00:01:00.439
few people uh, myself included really know that they're
00:01:00.440 --> 00:01:05.999
there, uh, because they're just not discoverable through,
00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.559
uh, basically the existing mechanisms, you know, prior to
00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:13.479
transient and which key to, to even know that those, those
00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:19.399
functions are there. Yeah. So I think I'm going to start
00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:21.519
asking you questions whilst people start writing them in a
00:01:21.520 --> 00:01:25.759
pad. But yeah, I also think that discoverability is a very
00:01:25.760 --> 00:01:29.559
huge point that having stuff like the stuff that you've
00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:32.679
showed today actually allows. One example that I'd like to
00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.759
give that many people tend to forget, and you've already
00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:39.559
mentioned it in your presentation, is that I've learned so
00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:43.479
much about using git in general thanks to Magit, for the
00:01:43.480 --> 00:01:46.719
reason that it shows you so many options that you might not be
00:01:46.720 --> 00:01:50.799
aware of. For instance, I like to really think about when
00:01:50.800 --> 00:01:54.519
you think about logging in git, Magit allows you to
00:01:54.520 --> 00:01:58.119
discover so many of the finer options, like I only want to
00:01:58.120 --> 00:02:01.519
see the first commit since the merge, or I only want to
00:02:01.520 --> 00:02:05.999
consider this subsection of commits going from master or
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.999
main to the point of your branch. So many things like this
00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.759
that you get to discover thanks to Transient. So do you have
00:02:11.760 --> 00:02:16.879
any similar experience on your end? Oh yeah, far too
00:02:16.880 --> 00:02:22.359
many, particularly with EditKit,
00:02:22.360 --> 00:02:28.279
having access to these commands,
00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.771
particularly with different granularity on
00:02:31.772 --> 00:02:34.773
S-expressions, sentences, words...
00:02:34.774 --> 00:02:37.395
Probably the most surprising thing I found
00:02:37.396 --> 00:02:43.021
was just how how compelling the
00:02:43.022 --> 00:02:49.054
S-expression would be as a unit of text for working with.
00:02:49.055 --> 00:02:53.988
I found that in most contexts, or in many places,
00:02:53.989 --> 00:03:02.719
it did what I wanted. I found that to be very surprising.
00:03:02.720 --> 00:03:06.159
So unless you've got anything else to add, I think we can just
00:03:06.160 --> 00:03:10.639
jump into questions. Okay, certainly. I'll be reading them
00:03:10.640 --> 00:03:13.599
for you so that it's easier for you. So the first question is,
NOTE Q: I wonder whether casual can only be used with the packages you
00:03:13.600 --> 00:03:17.599
I wonder whether casual can only be used with the packages
00:03:17.600 --> 00:03:19.599
you mentioned or whether it can be used with whatever
00:03:19.600 --> 00:03:25.399
packages you like. I think it's really the latter. I'm not
00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.879
quite sure what the... What the question was really
00:03:29.880 --> 00:03:35.039
pointing at, you know, is the question asking for why I chose
00:03:35.040 --> 00:03:41.679
the packages or the different modes that I did? Or is it, are
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.519
they looking at it from a developer perspective of, can we
00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:50.399
integrate casual with other packages? I mean, since we've
00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:52.839
got a little bit of time ahead of us, feel free to answer both
00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:59.279
questions. Um, I think the answer is, uh. Well, for the 1st,
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:05.599
1, I've, I've generally tried to stick with using. The modes
00:04:05.600 --> 00:04:11.039
that are already packaged in, um, and so there was a. A big
00:04:11.040 --> 00:04:16.759
refactoring of it where. Initially, I made separate repos
00:04:16.760 --> 00:04:20.879
for the different modes that I supported. And then through a
00:04:20.880 --> 00:04:24.959
discussion, which I won't go into here, that got changed
00:04:24.960 --> 00:04:30.239
where I consolidated all of the different transient menus
00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:35.039
for modes that are built in for behavior that's built into
00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:39.199
the Emacs. I put that into a single package called casual.
00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:44.799
And then integrations with other third party packages that
00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:49.879
are not built in were given the same standalone repo here. In
00:04:49.880 --> 00:04:55.719
terms of folks wanting to integrate that, it's the beauty of
00:04:55.720 --> 00:05:01.159
open source. They can get the repo and uh, and basically
00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.199
study that the code base, uh, actually, if they even install
00:05:05.200 --> 00:05:08.599
it through, uh, you know, the package manager in this case,
00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:12.679
uh, coming from the Melbourne distribution, um, they can
00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:17.919
inspect that code and, and, um, make modifications or even.
00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.519
uh, you know, integrate that with their other packages and,
00:05:21.520 --> 00:05:25.279
uh, do that to their heart's content. Um, I think one of the
00:05:25.280 --> 00:05:29.639
things that I need to, or at least, uh, you know, that I, I, I
00:05:29.640 --> 00:05:32.519
planned on sort of elaborating further on in the
00:05:32.520 --> 00:05:36.399
documentation is, is that transient already has built in
00:05:36.400 --> 00:05:41.279
mechanisms for modifying an existing transient. So you can
00:05:41.280 --> 00:05:47.279
add commands or, uh, re redefine the bindings. And so. That
00:05:47.280 --> 00:05:51.959
mechanism is available for users if they're not happy with
00:05:51.960 --> 00:05:57.159
those bindings or they want to add their own commands to a
00:05:57.160 --> 00:06:01.959
menu. Yeah, and people are... I'm personally familiar with
00:06:01.960 --> 00:06:05.119
this, again, with Magit, because sometimes, even though
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:07.479
you have a lot of discoverability for functions that you may
00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:10.359
not know, sometimes you also happen to realize that
00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.999
something is missing in the list of available options. I'm
00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:16.919
not sure if Casual actually supports something similar to
00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:21.559
Magit, which is levels of options being displayed.
00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.039
Actually, I'm not sure if it's transient native or if it's
00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:27.439
just something that Magit adds over this. No, transient
00:06:27.440 --> 00:06:30.599
supports levels. I've decided
00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:36.799
in large part, I've tried to avoid that just to avoid the
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:43.119
added complexity of trying to define those levels. Yeah, I
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.479
was going to say that perhaps it doesn't gel very well with
00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:49.839
the notion of casualness that you seem to be introducing the
00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:52.439
package. On one end, you've got something that is supposed
00:06:52.440 --> 00:06:56.639
to be very casual, very easy to use, and on the other end, you
00:06:56.640 --> 00:06:59.599
add levels for stuff that is fairly advanced. So advanced
00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:05.759
versus casual, kind of makes sense that you check this over.
00:07:05.760 --> 00:07:09.359
Alright, moving to the second question which is related to
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:10.853
the previous one.
NOTE Q: Are there any patterns emerging, such that it would seem possible to 1) systematize 2) automate(?) the mapping of mode commands to keyboard-driven menus? Possibly even have an auto casual wrapper for an uncovered mode?
00:07:10.854 --> 00:07:13.159
Are there any patterns emerging such that
00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:15.639
it would be impossible, sorry, such that it would be
00:07:15.640 --> 00:07:19.719
possible to once systematize and to automate the mapping of
00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:23.519
mode commands to keyboard-driven menus, possibly even
00:07:23.520 --> 00:07:26.559
have an auto-casual wrapper for an uncovered mode? Does it
00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:35.519
make sense to you? Yes, and I've gotten these comments from a
00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:42.799
number of different folks who really want to see some sort
00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:49.639
of design rule to, or basically, what is it? Some sort of
00:07:49.640 --> 00:07:54.679
design system to be able to generate the UI.
00:07:54.680 --> 00:08:01.399
Conceptually, I think it's doable, but on the flip side, it
00:08:01.400 --> 00:08:05.319
just requires so much coordination that it makes it really
00:08:05.320 --> 00:08:11.199
untenable. In this case, I have very strong opinions. I
00:08:11.200 --> 00:08:15.719
think we're better off trying to handcraft the user
00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:20.759
interface to get basically the best user experience. To try
00:08:20.760 --> 00:08:26.399
to emulate that with a design system, good luck, but I'm not
00:08:26.400 --> 00:08:31.519
I'm not interested in working on that. Right, yeah. I think
00:08:31.520 --> 00:08:34.119
if I try to think a little more about this, it feels like
00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:36.559
there's a notion of intention that is very important when
00:08:36.560 --> 00:08:41.479
you are designing UI and UX. And to have this intention, it
00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:45.319
feels like you cannot just base yourself of a design idea to
00:08:45.320 --> 00:08:48.799
organize the options. You cannot just work off a pattern. I
00:08:48.800 --> 00:08:53.599
think you need to have the trace of human understanding in
00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:56.679
order to have a UX that really works. And judging by the
00:08:56.680 --> 00:08:58.999
option that you've picked in the demos that you've showed
00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:04.039
today, I don't think it'd be particularly easy to organize
00:09:04.040 --> 00:09:07.959
them in a UX just casually for any mode. I think you need some
00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:14.159
human introspection to understand this, if that makes
00:09:14.160 --> 00:09:14.679
sense.
00:09:14.680 --> 00:09:17.279
Moving to the next question, which is related to something
00:09:17.280 --> 00:09:19.605
we discussed about with Magit.
NOTE Q: Does Casual have a log where you can see what commands were invoked?
00:09:19.606 --> 00:09:21.079
Does Casual have a log where
00:09:21.080 --> 00:09:23.759
you can see what commands were invoked? This is always
00:09:23.760 --> 00:09:27.479
available via M-x view-lossage or via the command-log-mode,
00:09:27.480 --> 00:09:30.993
but I'm wondering if it can do for Emacs command what
00:09:30.994 --> 00:09:34.479
magit-process-buffer does for learning Git commands. And for
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:37.439
everyone who's currently in Emacs, whenever you're
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.639
running a command in Magit, it's always printing the exact
00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:44.799
command that was run in a shell, inside this $
00:09:44.800 --> 00:09:47.399
menu. So does Casual actually provide something similar,
00:09:47.400 --> 00:09:52.599
Charles? I don't know. In general, because I'm building off
00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:55.199
of transient, it would have to be a mechanism that's
00:09:55.200 --> 00:10:01.519
available through transient. And You know, I would let
00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:06.799
Jonas speak more on that capability, because to be honest, I
00:10:06.800 --> 00:10:14.879
mean, even to my knowledge of transient is not that deep,
00:10:14.880 --> 00:10:16.839
actually.
00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:21.399
Well, it's funny that you say this because even though you
00:10:21.400 --> 00:10:23.759
say your knowledge might not be that big, you still managed
00:10:23.760 --> 00:10:27.239
to develop a whole suite of tools on top of it. So as far as
00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:29.599
people who do not know transient a whole lot, you're doing a
00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:33.159
pretty damn good job. Let me tell you that much. Thank you.
00:10:33.160 --> 00:10:37.719
Yeah, I think sort of what I bring to the table is, you know,
00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:41.919
quite a considerable career in software development on
00:10:41.920 --> 00:10:47.879
other software ecosystems. And as of late, I've spent
00:10:47.880 --> 00:10:52.439
basically the past decade working on iOS apps. Right. I
00:10:52.440 --> 00:10:55.199
think it's refreshing to be able to go back to something that
00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:56.839
looks like Emacs after iOS.
00:10:56.840 --> 00:11:03.879
Well, that's perhaps another longer conversation there.
00:11:03.880 --> 00:11:08.599
Speaking of longer conversation, we have only about 10
00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:11.599
minutes left until we need to move on to the next talk. But
00:11:11.600 --> 00:11:13.759
thank you everyone for all the questions you're asking. I'm
00:11:13.760 --> 00:11:17.239
not saying this because we finished, but it's good to see so
00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.919
many people writing in the chat and asking questions. It
00:11:19.920 --> 00:11:23.079
always shows that you're interested and that's always
00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.079
lovely to us. And you've mentioned Jonas. Obviously, we're
00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.359
talking about Jonas Bernoulli, i.e. Tarsius, the
00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:33.439
maintainer of transient. And what Charles just mentioned
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:37.559
about having a transient tooling to print the lossage,
00:11:37.560 --> 00:11:43.039
basically, of which sex were run by which command, feels
00:11:43.040 --> 00:11:44.839
like this is something that would be interesting. So,
00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:50.239
perhaps, I'm not sure if Tarsius is still on the chat
00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.639
currently, but he was definitely around earlier today, so
00:11:52.640 --> 00:11:55.839
we'll make sure that the ID lands on his lap later on. All
00:11:55.840 --> 00:12:00.203
right, moving to the next question.
NOTE Q: Is there a setting to close menu after executing command?
00:12:00.204 --> 00:12:00.919
Is there a setting to
00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:07.479
close menu after executing a command? By default, it will.
00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:10.879
There's a slot that you can define in a transient
00:12:10.880 --> 00:12:17.199
prefix called :transient. And if you set that to true,
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:20.639
then it will persist the menu after executing the command.
00:12:20.640 --> 00:12:26.159
But by default, it will actually dismiss the menu. This
00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:29.359
feels... Did you actually get to play with Hydra before
00:12:29.360 --> 00:12:36.279
playing with transients? To be honest, no. Yeah, I kind of
00:12:36.280 --> 00:12:41.719
slept on Hydra or at least, you know, I really wasn't all that
00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.639
ambitious with working with different packages until
00:12:44.640 --> 00:12:48.639
about like, a little less than 2 years ago or so.
00:12:48.640 --> 00:12:57.639
And then the other part was also, um. You know, not not really
00:12:57.640 --> 00:13:01.999
a technical. Start a comparison because I really don't want
00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:05.759
to upset folks here, but, uh. But more along the lines of just
00:13:05.760 --> 00:13:09.559
going with the notion that transient was being built in or
00:13:09.560 --> 00:13:15.279
packaged as a built in package for Emacs. I went with using
00:13:15.280 --> 00:13:20.679
that for my implementation. Cool. And I don't think there's
00:13:20.680 --> 00:13:23.199
anything controversial with what you're saying right now
00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:28.839
because, you know, we had earlier today, Euro Rechenko, the
00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:32.439
new maintainer of Augment, mentioning that he'd like to
00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:34.319
have a better integration with Transient because
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:39.159
Transient is, it looks like it's here to stay for a long time
00:13:39.160 --> 00:13:42.879
and might even land in core at some point. So, it definitely
00:13:42.880 --> 00:13:49.519
feels comparing Hydra because for me, most of my UI needs in
00:13:49.520 --> 00:13:54.439
Emacs prior to Transient were done via Hydra because it was a
00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:57.799
very convenient tooling. For people who do not know, Hydra
00:13:57.800 --> 00:14:02.919
is written by AboAbo. who's also authored packages like
00:14:02.920 --> 00:14:08.639
Lispy, an interactive Lisp mode, also for Ivy, which you
00:14:08.640 --> 00:14:14.239
might know as the counterpart of Helm, maybe five years ago.
00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:17.959
So all those packages, they were very innovative for the
00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:21.199
time and it's cool to see that some of the ideas which were
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:28.039
introduced by IV and Helm and all this are then taken by tools
00:14:28.040 --> 00:14:30.279
like Transient and done perhaps with a little more
00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:33.639
hindsight now that people have experienced a little more of
00:14:33.640 --> 00:14:38.359
it. Okay, we have still a little bit of time. Moving on to the
00:14:38.360 --> 00:14:40.281
next question.
NOTE Q: What modes are you working on at the moment for casual / are excited to explore?
00:14:40.282 --> 00:14:41.919
What modes are you working on at the moment
00:14:41.920 --> 00:14:44.159
for Casual or are you excited to explore?
00:14:44.160 --> 00:14:53.999
Well, so I just recently published one for calendar. And so I
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.839
think the calendar interface has a lot of really
00:14:56.840 --> 00:15:00.479
interesting behavior, particularly its support for
00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:07.479
non-Gregorian events, which is, you know, for folks who'd
00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:13.079
like, in my case, looking at the lunar calendar, it's great
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:17.799
to have tooling to be able to not have to leave Emacs to figure
00:15:17.800 --> 00:15:19.759
out when a lunar date is.
00:15:19.760 --> 00:15:29.599
Then, I think, you know, for the most part, My work on casual
00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:34.959
was really kind of my summer of code for Emacs here. And so in
00:15:34.960 --> 00:15:41.519
many ways, the velocity of casual development is going to
00:15:41.520 --> 00:15:48.919
slow down where I've got a big bulk of the modes that I really
00:15:48.920 --> 00:15:57.519
wanted to take care of. Um, I think one experimental thing
00:15:57.520 --> 00:16:00.999
that I think is very unbaked, but I would, you know, if folks
00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:06.879
are interested, uh, maybe looking at it is, uh, taking a look
00:16:06.880 --> 00:16:13.079
at edebug and trying to make that an easier thing to do. Um,
00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:18.359
that is ambitious. Uh, yeah, so maybe too ambitious.
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:23.713
Uh, other things are like really scary projects.
00:16:23.714 --> 00:16:25.195
And so, not to say that
00:16:25.196 --> 00:16:28.319
I really have a desire to do it, but another
00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:33.239
one would be ediff. Right. Okay. Relitigating it's
00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:43.639
interface, um, to have a transient menu. I say
00:16:43.640 --> 00:16:47.919
these things, but I'm also scared of those things. Yeah, I
00:16:47.920 --> 00:16:50.719
mean, I think it's a lovely way to tackle the project,
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:55.479
really, because you are fully aware that edebug and ediffs
00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:59.399
are mastodons when it comes to Emacs. They work very well. If
00:16:59.400 --> 00:17:02.639
you've ever tried to do a conflict resolution in Magit and
00:17:02.640 --> 00:17:07.199
you've pressed e, that usually opens ediff for you. If you
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:09.959
happen to know how it works, it's amazing, but if you do not know
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:13.719
it works, the interface is a little... It's a lot to take in
00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:20.879
at the moment. You have to know a, b, w... I can, and I
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:24.439
can never remember which one is the lower and which one is the
00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:27.359
upper. Like, it constantly goes in different directions. I
00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:29.719
can never remember which is the commit I'm trying to merge,
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.759
which is the commit I'm currently being on. It has nothing to
00:17:32.760 --> 00:17:36.839
do with Magit. It's merely Git and the way they conceive
00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:39.719
this. And probably, there might be a very nice way to
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.079
remember it, but I still haven't found it after 10 years as a
00:17:42.080 --> 00:17:44.919
software developer. So, I guess I need to dig a little
00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.519
deeper. But what I find lovely about the approach is that for
00:17:48.520 --> 00:17:52.599
you, working on the interface to those tools is actually
00:17:52.600 --> 00:17:55.159
something that allows you to discover how they work, but
00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:59.119
also how to make it more easy for people to understand how
00:17:59.120 --> 00:18:02.039
those tools work. So you're doing the work of
00:18:02.040 --> 00:18:05.399
understanding, of digesting a lot of the commands, so that
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.599
people do not have to go through the same pain as you have. So I
00:18:08.600 --> 00:18:14.279
find this a very noble endeavor in a way.
NOTE Getting older
00:18:14.280 --> 00:18:18.559
In so many ways, as perhaps I've mentioned
00:18:18.560 --> 00:18:23.639
in my talk, I'm getting older. I can't remember all
00:18:23.640 --> 00:18:28.759
these damn commands and my hand dexterity is failing. I
00:18:28.760 --> 00:18:33.199
mean, there's so many. Like multiple keystroke
00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.479
bindings, which I absolutely loathe. At most,
00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.799
like I can, I can only physically handle like, two
00:18:40.800 --> 00:18:47.799
characters, three maybe, at a time. So maybe
00:18:47.800 --> 00:18:51.239
that's just me, and others may
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.999
feel differently, but at the same time,
00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:01.519
the work that I've invested here is has been very personal
00:19:01.520 --> 00:19:06.239
for me because I just don't want to work that hard, and I want to
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:11.159
keep using Emacs. Yeah, and that's again a very good
00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:13.719
endeavor, I think, to have. And there's one last thing that
00:19:13.720 --> 00:19:16.039
I'd like to mention, because you've mentioned this project
00:19:16.040 --> 00:19:19.879
of yours, Casual, being some kind of summer of code, with the
00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:22.399
implication that you've worked a whole lot of it during the
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:26.919
summer or during this period. and perhaps investment will
00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:31.119
die down a little bit now. But I think it's completely fine to
00:19:31.120 --> 00:19:33.879
have moments when you feel particularly excited and you do a
00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.959
lot of work, and sometimes it dies down a little bit.
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:41.439
Personally, I've been... Four years ago, I was working a lot
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.679
on Org Roam and I had my Summer of Code on Org Roam. And that was
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.159
great. I was able to do a lot of things, to get a lot of things
00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.559
out of my head. But eventually, you know, you have to go make
00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:53.279
some money to survive or you have to take care of family and
00:19:53.280 --> 00:19:56.399
stuff like this. So, life tends to get in the way of your
00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.519
hobbies, especially when, you know, it's so... It's
00:20:00.520 --> 00:20:03.239
hobbies that involve so much of your time to get things
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:07.879
right, like programming does. But, you know, we appreciate
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:09.799
all the work you've done, Charles, and the fact that you've
00:20:09.800 --> 00:20:12.679
put it out there for people to enjoy. It's already a victory.
00:20:12.680 --> 00:20:14.999
You don't need to feel compelled to keep working on it
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.159
because ultimately, as you said, the beauty of open source
00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:21.759
is that people can just send PRs and get the project going
00:20:21.760 --> 00:20:28.519
again. Yeah. I mean, and if anything, you know, folks have
00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:33.319
expressed to me that, you know, in many ways, a lot of this
00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:37.959
stuff should be, you know, sort of folded in the core. And,
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:45.159
you know, I would love to see at least the ideals of, or at
00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:49.319
least an openness into thinking, rethinking the interface
00:20:49.320 --> 00:20:54.119
for Emacs. So, you know, it doesn't have to be, basically
00:20:54.120 --> 00:20:59.119
work the way it worked for basically the last half of the 20th
00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:03.519
century here. Yeah, Emacs is flexible enough to have
00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:10.279
different approaches and, you know, transient is one
00:21:10.280 --> 00:21:17.759
approach, but at the same time, you know, the ability to
00:21:17.760 --> 00:21:22.559
reimagine the user interface for, you know, the computing
00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:28.159
needs, you know, for basically users needs today, whether
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:33.119
you write or code or anything of that nature, I think is an
00:21:33.120 --> 00:21:39.039
exciting and great thing. Yeah, well, thank you so much for
00:21:39.040 --> 00:21:41.639
this conclusion. So I'm a little sorry, because sadly, we
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.919
needed to move the stream to the next talk. So we've lost
00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.639
about 20 seconds of what you said. But don't worry, whatever
00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:51.999
you've said will be available on the website. I didn't want
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:55.759
to interrupt, sadly, because I didn't want to be rude. But I
00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.679
think we did a great job answering the questions. So thank
00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:01.199
you so much for taking the time. I'll need to get going,
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.759
because we might have a problem with the next talk. So thank
00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:05.919
you so much, Charles. Certainly. Take care. Thank you.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:12.120
Appreciate it. Bye.
