WEBVTT
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[Speaker 0]: Dictation.
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[Speaker 1]: Right. All right I think we are live now.
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The stream is here. So folks if you would
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please post your questions on the pad and
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we'll take them up here.
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[Speaker 0]: Boy so I don't have myself set up with the
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[Speaker 1]: Oh, I can read the questions to you if you
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[Speaker 0]: pad. That would be fantastic.
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Thank you.
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[Speaker 1]: would prefer that. Sure.
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Thanks.
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[Speaker 0]: Well, for the purpose of breaking the ice a
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little bit, I can provide a live
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demonstration of the use of this Voice In
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plugin for Google Chrome.
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So I have, let's see, say new sentence.
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I'm on a website that is called 750 words.
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It provides a text area where without any
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other distracting icons for the purpose of
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writing and I'm using it for the purpose of
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capturing my words that I'm dictating and I
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have enabled the Voice In plugin by hitting
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the option L command. New sentence.
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So it interpreted that command new sentence
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even though I didn't pronounce it correctly,
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which is a pretty good demonstration of its
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accuracy. New sentence.
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Oops, that didn't work.
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Undo. New sentence. So new sentence is a
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combination of 2 commands,
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period and new line. So I've found it more
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convenient just to say new sentence than
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having to say period and new line.
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You can see that it's able to keep up with
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most of my speech, and it has to interpret
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the sounds that I'm making and convert those
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into words, so there's always going to be a
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lag. New sentence. But I've found that I can
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generate about 2,000, up to 2,000
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words an hour as I gather my thoughts and
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talk in my rather slow fashion of speaking.
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New sentence, if you're a really fast
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speaker, it might have trouble keeping up.
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New sentence. I like to write When I'm using
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the keyboard with 1 sentence per line,
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so that when I copy my text and paste it into
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Emacs, for example, I can resort the
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sentences very easily by just selecting 1
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line at a time. I like to keep the sentences
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unwrapped in that fashion because that
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greatly eases the rewriting phase.
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And I'm almost have sort of a hybrid reverse
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outlining approach by doing that.
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New sentence. Looks like I have gotten ahead
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of it a bit and it has not kept up.
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But generally, it does keep up pretty well.
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[Speaker 1]: Nice. Thanks for the demo.
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Let's see. I think we have.
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Yeah, sorry.
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[Speaker 0]: You're welcome. Go ahead.
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You can see that it has this EN means English
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and then dash US. There's actually about 40
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languages that it supports,
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including several variants of German and
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about a dozen English dialects.
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[Speaker 1]: Nice. Let's see, I think we have some
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comments and questions trickling in.
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So someone is saying that there is a text to
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command application or utility called Clipia,
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C-L-I-P-I-A, that they think is awesome.
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Clipia that they think is awesome.
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And someone else is also saying that Sox,
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S-O-X is another good alternative.
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[Speaker 0]: I've not explored those yet.
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So thank you very much for the suggestions.
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[Speaker 1]: So I'll... I just dropped a link to the pad
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page here in the chat and on the big blue
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button if you'd like to open that up as well.
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But I'll continue reading the comments and
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questions. So the first question,
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I guess, is that could you comment on how
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speaking versus typing affects your logic or
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the content, quote unquote,
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that you write?
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[Speaker 0]: I find that this is like the difference
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between writing your thoughts down on a blank
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piece of printer paper versus paper bound
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with a leather notebook.
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I don't think there's any real difference.
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I know that some people believe there is a
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solid certain difference,
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But this is for the purpose,
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I'm using this for the purpose of generating
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the first draft because my skills with using
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my voice to edit my text is still not very
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well developed. I'm still more efficient
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using the keyboard for that stage.
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So the hardest part about writing generally
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is getting the first crappy draft written.
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And so I have found that dictation is
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perfectly fine for that phase.
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And I find it actually very conducive for
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just getting the text out.
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The biggest problem that most of us have is
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applying our internal editor.
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And that inhibits us from generating words in
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a free-flowing fashion.
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So I generally do my generative writing.
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So actually I divide my writing into 2
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categories, generative writing,
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generating the first crappy draft,
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and then rewriting. Rewriting is probably 80,
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90% of writing where you go back and rework
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the order of the sentences,
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order of paragraphs, the order of words in a
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sentence and so forth.
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The really hard work. That's best done later
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in the day when I'm more awake.
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I do my general writing first thing in the
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morning when I feel horrible.
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I'm not very alert. That's when my internal
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editor is not very awake and I can get more
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words out, more words past that gatekeeper.
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And so I can do this sitting down,
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I can do this standing up,
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I can do this 20 feet away from my computer
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looking out the window to give my eyes a
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break. So I find it's actually very enjoyable
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to use it in this fashion.
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And the downside is that I wind up generating
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3 times as much text, and that makes for 3
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times as much work when it comes to rewriting
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the text. And that means I'm using the
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keyboard a lot later on in the day and I
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haven't made any progress on recovering from
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my own repetitive stress injury.
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I hope that I will add the use of voice
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commands, speech to commands,
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for editing the text in the future.
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And I'll eventually give my hands more of a
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break.
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[Speaker 1]: Right. Thanks. Yeah, that sounds like a nice
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flow of sort of being able to get your words
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out while your internal editor is still not
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inhibiting things. And then later in the day
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or days, get back to the actual rewriting and
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editing.
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[Speaker 0]: Cool. So this allows you to actually separate
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those 2 activities, not only by time.
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So many professional writers will spend
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several hours in the morning doing the
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generative part and then they'll spend the
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rest of the day rewriting.
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So they have separated those 2 activities
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temporally. What most people actually do is,
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you know, they do the generative part and
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then they write 1 sentence and they apply
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that internal editor right away because they
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want to write the first draft in a perfect,
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as a perfect version as the final draft And
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that slows them down dramatically.
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But this also allows you to separate these 2
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activities in terms of modality.
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You're going to do the generative writing by
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voice and the rewriting by keyboard.
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So I think this is 1 way that many people can
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get into using speech to text in a productive
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way.
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[Speaker 1]: Nice. Yeah, that sounds great.
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Let's see. I think we have about 3 or 4
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minutes live. So I think we have time for at
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least another question.
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Have you tried the chat GPT voice chat
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interface? And if so, how has been your
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experience of it? As someone experienced with
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voice control, interested to hear your
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thoughts, performance relative to the free
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software tools in particular?
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[Speaker 0]: I don't have much experience with that
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particular software. I have used Whisper a
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little bit. And so that's related.
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And of course you have this problem of lag so
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I find that it's a whisper is good for
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spitting out a sentence you know maybe for a
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doc string in a programming file.
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But I find that it's very prone to
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hallucinations. And I find myself spending
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half my time deleting the hallucinations,
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I feel like the net gain is diminished as a
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result. There's not much of a net gain in
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terms of what I'm getting out of it.
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Whereas I really appreciate the high level of
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accuracy that I'm getting from voice-in.
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I would use Talon Voice for dictation,
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but at this point, there's a significant
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difference between the level of accuracy of
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voice-in versus Talon voice.
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It's large enough of a difference that I'll
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probably use voice-in for a while until I can
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figure out how to get town voice to generate
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more accurate text.
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[Speaker 1]: Cool. Thank you. I think we have at least
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another 2 or 3 minutes.
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So if folks have any other questions Please
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feel free to post them on the pad and I'll
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check IRC now as well.
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Right, so I see 1 question on IRC asking,
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Are any of these voice command slash
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dictating dictation tools free Libre
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software? They cannot find that information
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Which I think is part of it.
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You just mentioned
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[Speaker 0]: the voice in software.
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There's It's a freemium so The answer is no
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To be able to add the commands,
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the custom commands, you have to pay $48 a
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year. The Talon Voice software is free.
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And the only limitation there is access to
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the language model. If you want to get the
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beta version, you need to subscribe to
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Patreon to help support the developer.
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And I found, I did do that and I really
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didn't find much of an improvement.
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So I really don't intend to do that in the
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future. But otherwise,
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Town Voice, everything is open and free,
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and the Slack community is incredibly
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welcoming. The parallels with the Emacs
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community are pretty striking.
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[Speaker 1]: Excellent, thank you. Okay,
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I think we have about another minute on the
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live stream, but I believe the big blue
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button room here is open and will be open,
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So if folks want to join,
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if Blaine maybe has a couple of extra
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minutes. Awesome. Yeah,
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then you're welcome to join and chat with
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Blaine and ask any further questions or just
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do general chatting. Chatting.
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[Speaker 0]: So I see a question. How good is Talon
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compared to Whisper? So with Talon,
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I find that the first part of the sentence
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will be fairly accurate and then when I'm
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doing dictation And then towards the end,
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the errors start to accumulate.
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So in general, I think it's error rate is
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about 5 words out of a hundred or so will be
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wrong. And whisper, Whisper is wonderful
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because it will insert punctuation for you.
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But I guess its errors are longer and that
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it'll hallucinate full sentences for you.
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So they both have significant error rates.
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They're just different kinds of errors.
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[Speaker 1]: Interesting.
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[Speaker 0]: Hopefully both will improve over time.
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Right.
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Let's see. There's a question.
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Are the green block the author for this talk?
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Not sure what that question means.
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[Speaker 1]: Well, there is a green block of text that's I
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think being generated from voice to text,
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speech to text. At the top of the pad,
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I think that's the question.
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[Speaker 0]: So I have this Voicens software operating on
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this GitHub, on this 750words.com
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site where I do my generative writing at the
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start of the day. And it just provides a text
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area that's free of distractions.
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And you can see the text that's being
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recorded as I talk. I haven't been saying the
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command new sentence, so there isn't any
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punctuation over our discourse.
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1 thing that I do at the start of the day is
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I like to write in LaTeX.
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Ultimately, that's how I store my writing.
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So new sentence, new sentence.
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See, insert start day.
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So This is an example of a chunk of LaTeX
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code. So I have some reflections on,
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you know, what did I wake up this morning?
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And how do I feel? I have reflections on the
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prior day in terms of what did I get done
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yesterday? Do I remember what I did
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yesterday? What happened last night?
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Focus of today. What's to be done today?
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And so on. So I actually,
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I think I have more down here.
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Then I've set up these lists so that I can
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expand them easily. If I say item,
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then the cursor shows up at the start of an
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item. And I have it coded so that that new
00:18:48.700 --> 00:18:49.200
phrase that I speak will start with a capital
00:18:52.480 --> 00:18:52.980
letter. As you can see,
00:18:54.520 --> 00:18:55.020
so capitalize the word and.
00:19:02.860 --> 00:19:03.360
So in spite of its rather limited command
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:06.380
syntax, There's some, it's enough to get
00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:08.400
started and maybe in the future,
00:19:09.360 --> 00:19:09.860
they'll add more features.
00:19:14.540 --> 00:19:15.040
[Speaker 1]: Cool, that's neat.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:21.940
[Speaker 0]: So I think this is very helpful for,
00:19:28.840 --> 00:19:29.040
you know, doing things like expanding the
00:19:32.780 --> 00:19:32.980
names of people. So you can do set up
00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:36.600
commands like expand the name of a colleague
00:19:40.520 --> 00:19:40.800
to go from their first name to their full
00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:43.260
name with a proper spelling of their last
00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:45.360
name, which, you know,
00:19:47.420 --> 00:19:47.640
you can wind up spending a lot of time trying
00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:53.640
to look that up. And so this voice in with
00:19:57.560 --> 00:19:57.880
the custom commands enables you to store hard
00:19:59.540 --> 00:20:00.040
to remember information like that.
00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:08.540
[Speaker 1]: Great. I see another question.
00:20:11.140 --> 00:20:11.580
How good is Talon compared to Whisper?
00:20:13.140 --> 00:20:13.480
I think you might have answered that already,
00:20:14.380 --> 00:20:14.880
at least partially, but...
00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:20.080
[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah. I talked about how it seems that
00:20:22.580 --> 00:20:23.080
Whisperer will carry out hallucinations,
00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:26.780
so it will generate long tracks of error,
00:20:30.340 --> 00:20:30.580
whereas Talon will tend to generate more
00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:32.460
errors towards the ends of sentences,
00:20:36.820 --> 00:20:36.960
in my experience. And the errors are
00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:38.460
generally shorter in extent.
00:20:42.180 --> 00:20:42.680
It doesn't hallucinate for long tracks.
00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:51.040
[Speaker 1]: Great. Okay, I think that's all the questions
00:20:51.760 --> 00:20:52.260
that we have on the pad.
00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:55.020
If folks want to join here on Big Blue Button
00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:57.180
for a few minutes and chat with Blaine,
00:21:00.260 --> 00:21:00.480
that also works. Let's see,
00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:02.240
I'm probably going to have to drop in a few
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:04.400
minutes to catch the next speaker.
00:21:07.860 --> 00:21:08.100
But many thanks, Blaine,
00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:09.900
for a great talk and for the interesting
00:21:11.180 --> 00:21:11.680
demos and the question and answer.
00:21:14.700 --> 00:21:15.200
[Speaker 0]: Thank you very much for hosting this.
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:17.140
[Speaker 1]: I appreciate it. glad to have you.
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:25.960
[Speaker 0]: Cheers, Yeah, this is really amazing to hold
00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:29.020
this conference with people from all around
00:21:34.660 --> 00:21:34.940
the world connected together through web
00:21:34.940 --> 00:21:35.440
browsers.
00:21:41.020 --> 00:21:41.260
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it's very neat what technology can do
00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:42.900
if and when it's working correctly.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:47.860
[Speaker 0]: I know it can be a little frustrating at
00:21:48.760 --> 00:21:49.120
times, but when it's working,
00:21:54.740 --> 00:21:55.240
it's wonderful. Yep.
NOTE Start of section to review
00:21:59.540 --> 00:21:59.700
[Speaker 2]: Good purpose of computers is all the
00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:01.600
computers run the same code,
00:22:03.460 --> 00:22:03.860
so that people, you know,
00:22:05.740 --> 00:22:06.240
a lot of people work on the same thing and
00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:08.860
build upon each other's works.
00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:16.960
For journaling I found 1 good compromise
00:22:18.204 --> 00:22:18.428
between editing and stream-of-thought
00:22:19.548 --> 00:22:19.772
journaling. 1 good compromise between editing
00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:21.180
and stream of thought journaling.
00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:24.120
1 good compromise between editing and being
00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:27.480
able to do it again and just kind of helps me
00:22:31.160 --> 00:22:31.320
do my thoughts even when I do it is when you
00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:33.340
do org mode and you have the bullets it kind
00:22:35.280 --> 00:22:35.680
of allows you to naturally chart your
00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:39.300
thoughts in a way that's really easy to edit
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:42.380
reorder I saw you kind of did that with your
00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:47.280
mac la tech macro where you said item and it
00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:49.180
would put you down to the next item.
00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:57.000
Does... How much do you do stuff like that?
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:01.000
How much do you do stuff like that where you
00:23:04.700 --> 00:23:05.200
use like org mode headings and then you
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:07.200
reorder them because like I did that with
00:23:10.080 --> 00:23:10.460
also the K outline from HyperBolt package for
00:23:15.140 --> 00:23:15.420
the for Emacs org mode later on after the
00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:22.060
[Speaker 0]: stream. Yes. So I could actually set this up
00:23:26.800 --> 00:23:27.300
so I have a lot of snippets for Org Mode.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:31.160
I could have Org Mode version of my insert
00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:34.780
start day snippet and carry things out in org
00:23:39.920 --> 00:23:40.420
mode. So I use org mode from time to time.
00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:43.980
I often use it for the purpose of writing
00:23:47.780 --> 00:23:48.060
readme files for projects to outline the
00:23:48.700 --> 00:23:49.200
purpose of the project,
00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:55.320
and say for a director that contains a coding
00:24:01.620 --> 00:24:02.120
project. And I think this would,
00:24:07.300 --> 00:24:07.700
so the main limitation of VoiceIn is it only
00:24:10.600 --> 00:24:10.760
works in a web page and you have to have an
00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:14.640
Internet connection, whereas Talon voice is
00:24:17.220 --> 00:24:17.720
perfect for something like org mode in that
00:24:20.200 --> 00:24:20.460
you don't need an internet connection and it
00:24:22.940 --> 00:24:23.100
will operate anywhere that you can place a
00:24:24.840 --> 00:24:24.960
cursor. I haven't found a place where it
00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:27.260
doesn't work. It's amazing.
00:24:28.860 --> 00:24:29.360
So as you saw my talk,
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:35.560
perhaps You can run it in a terminal or a
00:24:38.320 --> 00:24:38.760
remote computer. You can run it in a virtual
00:24:44.120 --> 00:24:44.380
[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, it's definitely.
00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:46.260
[Speaker 0]: machine. If you can put your cursor there,
00:24:50.820 --> 00:24:51.320
it will work. And so as you might imagine,
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:53.220
if you use bash aliases,
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.200
I've worked for, 1 of the first things I did
00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:00.920
was map Talend commands to bash aliases so
00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300
that I can do all kinds of crazy things
00:25:04.200 --> 00:25:04.700
inside of the terminal.
00:25:12.040 --> 00:25:12.260
And there are, you know,
00:25:15.260 --> 00:25:15.660
there's some support already for using Talon
00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:20.780
in Emacs. There's some Emacs functionality
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:22.460
that's built into Talon.
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:25.660
So when you are in Emacs,
00:25:27.100 --> 00:25:27.600
there's some features that are automatically
00:25:30.520 --> 00:25:31.020
available. And then others have developed or
00:25:32.320 --> 00:25:32.820
are developing packages,
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:35.080
which I don't think are available yet in
00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:40.680
ELPA. There's 1 that does the font locking or
00:25:42.780 --> 00:25:43.280
syntax highlighting of Talon files,
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:46.720
and another that adds some additional
00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:50.880
functionality that I'm regrettably not yet
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:51.940
familiar with.
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:55.940
[Speaker 2]: Well, as an example with like how the
00:25:56.760 --> 00:25:57.100
sharding of the thoughts,
00:25:59.800 --> 00:26:00.140
like let's say, oh, how has my day went?
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.080
It's went good for reasons 123,
00:26:04.860 --> 00:26:05.740
and bad for reasons ABC.
00:26:07.828 --> 00:26:07.872
And then later on, I might think,
00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:08.860
oh, there's an, I also,
00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:11.780
my day went good for reasons 456,
00:26:14.540 --> 00:26:14.880
then you, I can, then you jump up.
00:26:18.520 --> 00:26:18.820
And so the, like I found like,
00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:20.260
yeah, the org mode subheadings,
00:26:21.980 --> 00:26:22.480
because you're able to jump around,
00:26:25.040 --> 00:26:25.540
easily reorder them after the fact,
00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:32.860
the very streamlined approach to the stream
00:26:33.620 --> 00:26:34.120
of thought and the editing.
00:26:38.800 --> 00:26:39.300
[Speaker 0]: That's right, extremely powerful.
00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:41.500
[Speaker 2]: And even with the stream of thought,
00:26:44.060 --> 00:26:44.480
just because like, even when you're editing
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:45.380
that in real time, like,
00:26:47.320 --> 00:26:47.800
oh, wait a minute, I thought of another
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:49.200
reason that my day went good,
00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:50.820
even though I was talking about how it was
00:26:52.760 --> 00:26:53.260
going bad now. So you jump up.
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.180
And then you do that. And then you have it.
00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040
You easily summarize your thoughts and
00:27:00.060 --> 00:27:00.560
whatnot.
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:07.600
[Speaker 0]: That's right. And I think org mode is really
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:12.180
ideal for that kind of interact.
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:15.480
So yeah, I see your point in terms of that
00:27:18.760 --> 00:27:19.260
sort of a blend of generative writing and
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:23.940
editing. And it's also kind of parallel to
00:27:27.240 --> 00:27:27.660
mind mapping. I use this mind mapping
00:27:32.660 --> 00:27:33.160
software called iThoughtsX where I'll
00:27:36.760 --> 00:27:37.260
generate all these children items,
00:27:40.040 --> 00:27:40.540
and then I'll drag them around and resort
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:47.180
them. And they can have children of their own
00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:49.400
and grandchildren and so on,
00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:51.300
in terms of the levels of the nodes.
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:55.240
And it's pretty much the same sort of thing
00:27:57.560 --> 00:27:57.960
with a nested hierarchy that you can have
00:28:02.660 --> 00:28:03.040
with org mode. I think having several
00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:10.120
alternate modes or modalities of playing with
00:28:13.100 --> 00:28:13.300
thoughts is useful. So sometimes I'll hit a
00:28:17.180 --> 00:28:17.680
wall and we're just not really generating
00:28:21.260 --> 00:28:21.760
anything in a text mode.
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:25.500
But if I switch to using the mind mapping,
00:28:30.040 --> 00:28:30.420
just seeing it arranged with the connecting
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:35.280
lines plays on a different part of the brain,
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:38.140
I think, and it can be incredibly
00:28:40.600 --> 00:28:40.800
stimulatory. It can stimulate a lot of new
00:28:43.480 --> 00:28:43.780
[Speaker 2]: That's something that I haven't messed around
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:45.900
too much with is the mind mapping software,
00:28:45.980 --> 00:28:46.480
but...
00:28:51.600 --> 00:28:51.760
[Speaker 0]: thoughts. Because the closest thing that we
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:56.600
have to it in Emacs is Orgrimm in the in
00:29:00.860 --> 00:29:01.360
terms of like the 3D visualization of with
00:29:03.720 --> 00:29:04.220
Orgrimm GUI or
00:29:10.120 --> 00:29:10.620
[Speaker 2]: UI. As well as being able to generate SVG
00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:13.100
diagrams and stuff like that,
00:29:16.980 --> 00:29:17.260
I think those 2 things would allow you stuff
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:20.740
like Orgrimm or denote And then the diagrams
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:23.300
would be the good ways of doing that in
00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:25.600
Emacs, but they don't have the mind map
00:29:27.160 --> 00:29:27.660
programs as well.
00:29:30.140 --> 00:29:30.640
[Speaker 0]: They're not as well developed.
00:29:32.740 --> 00:29:33.240
There are a couple mind mapping packages,
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:37.700
but they're not as advanced.
00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:42.180
[Speaker 2]: The best ones were JavaScript web page that
00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:44.340
it that Emacs interacted with.
00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:46.680
Very well. And so they kind of,
00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:49.620
you know, worked around and had a little.
00:29:51.620 --> 00:29:51.820
Integration with the 2.
00:29:53.420 --> 00:29:53.920
So when you be jumping around your.
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:56.380
When you'd be clicking on the web page it
00:29:59.300 --> 00:29:59.480
would be pointing you to different places and
00:30:07.060 --> 00:30:07.400
buffers okay like those are those the There's
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:11.680
an like org-roam node program where it kind
00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:13.860
of shows the looks like a mind map.
00:30:17.820 --> 00:30:18.040
You can click and drag them a little bit,
00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:19.180
so it's a little interactive.
00:30:27.980 --> 00:30:28.480
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I'm not familiar with that.
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:30.660
I'll have to look into that.
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:32.740
That sounds very interesting.
00:30:36.820 --> 00:30:37.200
[Speaker 2]: I found that I didn't know better,
00:30:38.560 --> 00:30:39.060
though, than Org-ROM, so it doesn't.
00:30:43.320 --> 00:30:43.820
[Speaker 0]: Why is that?
00:30:47.080 --> 00:30:47.580
[Speaker 2]: Well, 1 of the things I'm,
00:30:51.600 --> 00:30:51.760
I want to be able to, I don't like the
00:30:53.200 --> 00:30:53.700
feeling of being trapped inside org-mode
00:30:56.040 --> 00:30:56.540
documents. Like I want to be able to write,
00:30:58.940 --> 00:30:59.060
even though I don't really use Markdown and I
00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:01.020
like org-mode better than that.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:03.220
Like for instance, I also use the Koutline
00:31:04.280 --> 00:31:04.780
from the Hyperbole package.
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:08.360
That's what my I got a talk on the stream of
00:31:12.620 --> 00:31:12.700
thought journaling for with Koutline and I
00:31:14.060 --> 00:31:14.160
was like, I just don't like the feeling of
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:18.700
being tracked in 1 document and denote has
00:31:21.300 --> 00:31:21.800
the ability to it renames the file so you get
00:31:26.020 --> 00:31:26.520
keywords in like a PDF file so you can take
00:31:28.100 --> 00:31:28.380
so you can link to that with your notes
00:31:30.540 --> 00:31:30.700
without it all disappearing because it's not
00:31:36.340 --> 00:31:36.440
an org mode document. Plus the ability of
00:31:38.520 --> 00:31:38.940
having it run on multiple computers or with
00:31:42.660 --> 00:31:43.160
multiple people, the database kind of gets
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:46.720
screwed up when you try running it under sync
00:31:50.500 --> 00:31:51.000
thing. Sync. More fragile.
00:31:56.000 --> 00:31:56.500
[Speaker 0]: Very interesting. Yeah.
00:32:03.260 --> 00:32:03.680
How far are you? So are you a regular
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:06.980
practitioner of the Zettelkasten approach?
00:32:12.180 --> 00:32:12.680
[Speaker 2]: Trying to be. Incrementally improving it.
00:32:16.780 --> 00:32:16.980
I partly work too much like testing out the
00:32:20.760 --> 00:32:21.000
org-roam versus the notes to use it too much.
00:32:23.300 --> 00:32:23.500
So part of it is I just tweak with it too
00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:25.300
much before using it and then.
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:29.240
[Speaker 0]: Oh, it's so fun to tweak it.
00:32:32.580 --> 00:32:32.840
[Speaker 2]: I think mostly it's as I have these tools,
00:32:33.640 --> 00:32:34.140
I know where they are.
00:32:35.760 --> 00:32:35.980
So whenever I do need them,
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:38.180
I can use them, even though I don't always
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:38.940
use them.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:43.940
[Speaker 0]: So I have about a thousand notes in my org
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:48.040
room. Zettelkasten. I've actually,
00:32:50.140 --> 00:32:50.320
it's kind of cool that you can export it and
00:32:51.460 --> 00:32:51.960
move it into other programs.
00:32:56.320 --> 00:32:56.520
I have moved it to Obsidian and played with
00:32:57.720 --> 00:32:58.180
it in Obsidian for a while,
00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:00.320
maybe added to it in Obsidian,
00:33:01.480 --> 00:33:01.980
moved it back to Orgrim.
00:33:07.080 --> 00:33:07.580
But I'm not convinced.
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.180
I mean, that I think that Nicholas Luhmann
00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:13.700
was very successful with it because he spent
00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:16.420
5 hours a day or whatever working with it.
00:33:18.560 --> 00:33:19.060
And I think I would have to do,
00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:21.600
put in a similar amount of effort to get this
00:33:23.600 --> 00:33:24.100
kind of benefits that he gained from it.
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:26.980
I'm waiting for somebody to do a scientific
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:29.700
study, controlled trials to see,
00:33:31.720 --> 00:33:32.220
to prove whether there's a real benefit.
00:33:37.900 --> 00:33:38.400
[Speaker 2]: Oh, yeah. So with the Zettelkasten,
00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:41.320
one of the things where you have the 1 for the
00:33:42.180 --> 00:33:42.680
sections, and then the 1.1,
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:47.480
or you know how the notes that it does that's
00:33:48.740 --> 00:33:49.240
different. The denote,
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:53.380
it has the ability to use a hierarchy manage,
00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:55.640
which Org-ROM does everything it can to
00:33:57.380 --> 00:33:57.560
eliminate. But you can use them both in
00:33:59.140 --> 00:33:59.640
tandem. They call it signatures.
00:34:04.820 --> 00:34:05.160
And to me, 1 of the cool features of denote
00:34:06.820 --> 00:34:07.120
would be being able to use like the
00:34:09.780 --> 00:34:10.280
signatures for the things that make sense.
00:34:13.440 --> 00:34:13.860
Like 1 of the ideas is if you don't exactly
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:15.100
know where this is, but you know,
00:34:15.920 --> 00:34:16.239
it goes to the section,
00:34:17.060 --> 00:34:17.560
you can just use the signature.
00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:20.080
Maybe don't even have too much of a file
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:23.179
name. Like oh, this is just another thought
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:28.420
on, well you wouldn't use it for this,
00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:30.719
but like my day went good for reasons 1,
00:34:33.040 --> 00:34:33.380
2, 3, 4, 5, and you could just use the denote
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:34.920
signature to do 1, 2, 3,
00:34:37.659 --> 00:34:37.800
4, 5, just as you have new ideas on like a
00:34:41.840 --> 00:34:42.040
subject, or like cars are cars are not this
00:34:43.659 --> 00:34:44.580
car is nice because of reasons XYZ,
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.219
or these types of four-wheelers are nice
00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:49.080
because of XYZ. And you could just keep on
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:50.980
doing that rather than having to get a new
00:34:52.120 --> 00:34:52.620
name for each 1 of those files.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:55.520
Or you could choose not to have it,
00:34:57.780 --> 00:34:58.280
but the ability to have it optionally in,
00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:01.520
to me, sounds like a really nice combo.
00:35:03.000 --> 00:35:03.200
Because then you
00:35:06.140 --> 00:35:06.420
[Speaker 0]: could read. I agree. Yeah,
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:09.020
I've actually imposed a hierarchy in my
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:10.820
Zettelkasten and Orgrim.
00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:18.180
I just, I can't imagine having random ideas.
00:35:21.200 --> 00:35:21.700
They need some kind of structure.
00:35:27.500 --> 00:35:27.840
Always have some kind of parent node to
00:35:28.420 --> 00:35:28.920
attach them to.
00:35:32.740 --> 00:35:32.960
[Speaker 2]: With the workflow I'm trying to develop with
00:35:34.440 --> 00:35:34.840
it, part of it is I'm just trying to optimize
00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:37.080
the workflow before it feels really,
00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:38.560
really, really good, and I don't want to
00:35:39.720 --> 00:35:40.220
tweak with it, or I don't know.
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:42.980
Or maybe I don't always need the tool,
00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:46.020
but some of the distinctions it seems like
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:52.580
that I want is, I want a daily journal For
00:35:53.100 --> 00:35:53.600
your stream of thoughts,
00:35:56.000 --> 00:35:56.480
then I want a separate 1 for your to do list
00:35:57.980 --> 00:35:58.480
because what you like.
00:36:01.240 --> 00:36:01.440
You want very different properties for each
00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:03.540
of those. Like for to-do lists,
00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:05.320
you want hierarchical,
00:36:11.260 --> 00:36:11.760
limited. But if you have more than 3 priority
00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:13.820
items, you don't have a priority item and
00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.040
it's not a good to-do list.
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:18.980
It's just unordered thoughts.
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:23.680
[Speaker 0]: it's a wishful list, because you won't get
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:26.500
most of those things done beyond the first 3.
00:36:28.180 --> 00:36:28.380
[Speaker 2]: You're trying to- So And then when you're
00:36:30.600 --> 00:36:31.100
trying to do the other stuff,
00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:32.480
the stream of thoughts,
00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:35.080
all that stuff I probably don't want to go
00:36:36.720 --> 00:36:36.900
straight into like my Zettelkasten because
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:37.940
some of those problems,
00:36:42.660 --> 00:36:43.160
like it's noisy, it might be redundant,
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:45.520
you don't know how it fits into it because
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:47.080
you haven't done that processing on it.
00:36:47.960 --> 00:36:48.460
This hasn't been refined.
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:53.140
So, like, you don't want to refine it.
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:55.320
Like, I find that spell checking is
00:36:56.680 --> 00:36:56.920
detrimental to me. I don't want spell
00:36:58.520 --> 00:36:58.840
checking. I don't want spell checking.
00:37:00.200 --> 00:37:00.600
I don't want syntax highlighting.
00:37:04.040 --> 00:37:04.540
I just want to talk or to just write.
00:37:07.020 --> 00:37:07.520
If I have mistakes, I can turn on that later,
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:09.220
do it. Because otherwise,
00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:13.740
it will distract me and makes that process
00:37:20.140 --> 00:37:20.280
[Speaker 0]: Yep, yep, definitely interferes with the
00:37:20.280 --> 00:37:20.780
flow.
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:25.080
[Speaker 2]: worse. So yeah, when you're so yeah when
00:37:28.080 --> 00:37:28.440
you're doing the getting things done like
00:37:30.040 --> 00:37:30.240
that's why I want them would be want would
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:32.600
want them in separate files is that you want
00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:34.660
them like ordered, numbered lists,
00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:39.480
smaller. And then with the other,
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:40.800
with the stream of thought,
00:37:42.340 --> 00:37:42.840
with journaling, you'd want it just
00:37:45.240 --> 00:37:45.740
unordered. Thoughts land wherever they may.
00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:49.640
Maybe not even like machine-generated
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:51.660
timestamps, So you don't even have to worry
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:52.940
about the names of it,
00:37:55.080 --> 00:37:55.380
as an example. So yeah,
00:37:56.960 --> 00:37:57.160
very different properties for what you want
00:37:58.260 --> 00:37:58.760
for both of those modalities.
00:38:06.340 --> 00:38:06.440
[Speaker 0]: So you saw, perhaps, in that snippet that I
00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:08.360
had that at, you know,
00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:10.580
working on my to-do list at the start of the
00:38:13.080 --> 00:38:13.580
day, but in a certain sense that is not ideal
00:38:20.320 --> 00:38:20.820
time. I really haven't optimized the timing
00:38:22.640 --> 00:38:23.040
of assembly of the to-do list,
00:38:24.020 --> 00:38:24.520
I think, in retrospect.
00:38:27.540 --> 00:38:27.880
It's just by lifelong habit.
00:38:29.060 --> 00:38:29.560
I do that at the beginning of the day,
00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:33.000
but probably would be better to do it at
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:34.860
night or the night before.
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:38.500
And so you sort of prime your brain to go,
00:38:41.180 --> 00:38:41.680
just get up and go, go after those items.
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:46.680
You were, you maybe you want to revise the
00:38:49.120 --> 00:38:49.620
items a little bit after sleeping on it,
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:52.820
but after your subconscious has worked on
00:38:57.500 --> 00:38:57.660
those items. Do you have a daily routine that
00:38:59.680 --> 00:38:59.900
you follow in terms of generating those kind
00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:00.520
of lists?
00:39:05.660 --> 00:39:06.160
[Speaker 2]: No. As I said, mostly I just got scaffolding
00:39:08.040 --> 00:39:08.300
for this stuff when I want to do it.
00:39:10.520 --> 00:39:10.760
I enjoy building the scaffolding and I know
00:39:12.340 --> 00:39:12.600
where the tools are when I need it.
00:39:14.540 --> 00:39:14.760
And I start using them when I need it,
00:39:17.040 --> 00:39:17.540
but I don't have it too consistent.
00:39:29.720 --> 00:39:30.220
[Speaker 0]: So OK, so you've looked so far at denote and
00:39:35.300 --> 00:39:35.800
org-roam, and you're using k-outline.
00:39:39.520 --> 00:39:39.840
And are there other tools that you've
00:39:39.840 --> 00:39:40.340
explored?
00:39:44.380 --> 00:39:44.880
[Speaker 2]: I've tried using whisper.el
00:39:50.720 --> 00:39:50.920
and nerd dictation to do What your talk was
00:39:53.560 --> 00:39:53.760
about? Speaking speech to text to see how
00:39:56.720 --> 00:39:56.840
that changes Because it does change what you
00:40:01.020 --> 00:40:01.120
think What you write down when you speak it
00:40:05.080 --> 00:40:05.500
rather than write it. Same thing as when
00:40:07.420 --> 00:40:07.540
you're thinking about when you eliminate the
00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:09.440
editing, it changes the way you write.
00:40:11.900 --> 00:40:12.260
When you have the spell checking,
00:40:14.100 --> 00:40:14.340
it changes the way you write to a much
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:20.600
smaller degree. But that's the stuff I really
00:40:23.560 --> 00:40:24.060
haven't gotten working as well,
00:40:25.120 --> 00:40:25.620
or underdeveloped.
00:40:30.160 --> 00:40:30.660
[Speaker 0]: So the dictated text winds up,
00:40:37.740 --> 00:40:37.900
I'll move it in. Often I move it into on
00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:41.200
Overleaf, this website for a lot of tech
00:40:44.080 --> 00:40:44.580
documents. I have a plug-in for Rightful,
00:40:50.520 --> 00:40:51.020
And I use that to clean up my word choices
00:40:56.160 --> 00:40:56.660
and some grammar. And I use Grammarly.
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:01.080
I'll copy and paste. It just depends on the
00:41:01.680 --> 00:41:02.080
nature of the writing,
00:41:05.720 --> 00:41:06.220
how serious it is, how polished it has to be.
00:41:12.620 --> 00:41:13.080
If I, if it's really vital,
00:41:14.440 --> 00:41:14.800
like for a grant application or something,
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:17.380
I'll paste that into Grammarly and work on
00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:22.540
trying to get the writing level to the lowest
00:41:26.100 --> 00:41:26.280
possible grade level to make it as clear as
00:41:30.040 --> 00:41:30.220
possible to as wide of an audience as
00:41:34.740 --> 00:41:34.900
possible. 1 of the things I kind
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:38.500
[Speaker 2]: of wish with all the spell checking grammarly
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:40.940
is I kind of wish you could say,
00:41:48.620 --> 00:41:49.120
hey, what would the subtle cast in person
00:41:52.120 --> 00:41:52.620
think of what I wrote who what would einstein
00:41:54.200 --> 00:41:54.400
think of what I wrote because rather than
00:41:57.340 --> 00:41:57.660
just trying to make 1 uniform way of talking
00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:00.440
it's like people talk differently and that's
00:42:04.080 --> 00:42:04.240
an advantage and I can't I really wish like
00:42:07.440 --> 00:42:07.820
you maybe these GPT programs could do well.
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:11.000
I really wish it could help you with the
00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:16.420
grammar, that maybe give you thoughts on what
00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:18.720
your notes are. What does this person think
00:42:20.220 --> 00:42:20.380
of your thoughts? What does this person think
00:42:20.457 --> 00:42:20.464
of your thoughts? Well,
00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:20.940
does this person think of your thoughts?
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:22.540
Well, does this person think of your
00:42:22.540 --> 00:42:23.040
thoughts?
00:42:27.720 --> 00:42:28.140
[Speaker 0]: That's true. Yeah, I could probably do that
00:42:31.560 --> 00:42:32.060
even through chat GDP now.
00:42:35.140 --> 00:42:35.640
I haven't spent time trying that out.
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:40.320
But I bet that capabilities are already.
00:42:44.340 --> 00:42:44.480
It would be nice if it was like built in to
00:42:46.240 --> 00:42:46.740
Emacs, right? It's a package.
00:42:49.020 --> 00:42:49.520
Yeah. That'd be very cool.
00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:52.660
[Speaker 2]: Grammarly have some sort of,
00:42:55.040 --> 00:42:55.320
like, the grammar where they help you the way
00:42:57.660 --> 00:42:58.040
you write. Like, for instance,
00:42:59.080 --> 00:42:59.580
removing redundant words.
00:43:02.720 --> 00:43:03.220
And Yeah, it's supposed to be like beyond
00:43:04.820 --> 00:43:05.320
just spell checking, right?
00:43:08.240 --> 00:43:08.740
[Speaker 0]: Right. So, and there's actually a Grammarly
00:43:13.300 --> 00:43:13.520
package for Emacs, and you get some of the
00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:15.040
functionality out of it.
00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:17.560
I've paid for the subscription to get the
00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:21.460
advanced features, but I've maybe I don't
00:43:23.300 --> 00:43:23.800
have my configuration set up correctly.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:27.780
I just found it was easier to copy and paste
00:43:31.780 --> 00:43:32.280
a paragraph at a time into the desktop
00:43:36.460 --> 00:43:36.780
application and it will go through and find
00:43:38.900 --> 00:43:39.400
those redundancies, junk English.
00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:48.580
[Speaker 2]: It would be really interesting trying to have
00:43:52.640 --> 00:43:52.760
1 of these That was my problem with a lot of
00:43:55.840 --> 00:43:56.120
the grammarly type Programs is I'm I want
00:43:57.620 --> 00:43:57.900
something that would do that like be real
00:43:59.720 --> 00:43:59.980
interesting seeing 1 that's like an old
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:03.960
English type thing or like Lumen person where
00:44:06.540 --> 00:44:07.040
it's just like how does this person write and
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:10.160
Because it would be it would spit out
00:44:11.160 --> 00:44:11.660
something a lot different.
00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:13.680
Just different. Like, yeah,
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:14.940
you put different people.
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:17.900
[Speaker 0]: Most definitely, yes. They would have a
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:20.740
completely different thinking and writing
00:44:28.740 --> 00:44:28.940
style. And so the purpose of doing that would
00:44:34.300 --> 00:44:34.640
be to stimulate A new way of thinking or
00:44:36.340 --> 00:44:36.840
writing I guess on your part
00:44:40.600 --> 00:44:40.960
[Speaker 2]: the purpose of writing is to communicate It
00:44:43.540 --> 00:44:43.740
and writing you know 1 of the targets for
00:44:47.020 --> 00:44:47.320
that could be yourself so it's like I'd much
00:44:50.380 --> 00:44:50.880
rather have a comprehensible sentence than a
00:44:57.500 --> 00:44:57.720
truly correct 1. 1 of those is far more
00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:01.280
valuable and far more correct English or
00:45:06.560 --> 00:45:07.060
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, one's more effective at communicating
00:45:08.860 --> 00:45:09.360
to yourself. Yes.
00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:11.720
[Speaker 2]: language. Well, one's using the tool,
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:15.520
one's the other you're trying to be used by
00:45:19.080 --> 00:45:19.580
the tool. And they're not the same thing.
00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:30.280
[Speaker 0]: That's true. Well, I view myself as being
00:45:35.140 --> 00:45:35.640
responsible for my writing and being the
00:45:40.200 --> 00:45:40.520
final judge of it and as a scientist I have
00:45:49.060 --> 00:45:49.300
to my mantra is it's got to be clear and then
00:45:52.600 --> 00:45:53.100
precise and then concise in that order.
00:45:56.580 --> 00:45:56.760
And I claim that, you know,
00:45:58.440 --> 00:45:58.780
that's the order with which I go through
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:01.780
doing revisions. Clarity is,
00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:02.880
you know, if it's not clear,
00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:05.600
it's useless. It's got to be clear to me,
00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:08.740
but it's got to be clear to a lot of people
00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:11.420
for whom English is not a first language.
00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:15.720
And then after that, I got to worry about
00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:19.520
precision and then conciseness,
00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:24.280
but those can't be done at the expense of
00:46:27.720 --> 00:46:28.220
clarity. So it's quite a battle.
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:32.640
[Speaker 2]: That goes back on the to-do list,
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:35.860
where it's like if you have more than 3 items
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:39.660
like here the purpose of doing that is to
00:46:43.080 --> 00:46:43.580
help or grant of a to-do list is help is to
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:45.680
Have you help choose what you're going to do
00:46:47.680 --> 00:46:47.840
for the day. Which is why if you have more
00:46:50.660 --> 00:46:50.860
than 3 items, if you have 50 items on there,
00:46:52.860 --> 00:46:53.320
you're not going to get 50 of those items
00:46:55.920 --> 00:46:56.040
done. So maybe you pick the easiest ones to
00:46:58.620 --> 00:46:59.020
do, not necessarily the ones that you want or
00:47:03.340 --> 00:47:03.580
need to be done. So it's like the process of
00:47:06.200 --> 00:47:06.380
choosing those, like, I don't know,
00:47:07.640 --> 00:47:08.140
like I found that a very good rules,
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:11.300
like up to 3 priority items if you,
00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:13.440
and then also when you look back and you see
00:47:14.440 --> 00:47:14.940
that you did those 3 items,
00:47:18.460 --> 00:47:18.680
Who cares about this? I'd rather get those 3
00:47:20.080 --> 00:47:20.580
items done than any number of secondary
00:47:20.640 --> 00:47:21.140
tasks.
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:26.820
[Speaker 0]: Yes, I, yeah, you're very,
00:47:28.440 --> 00:47:28.940
very right about that.
00:47:32.380 --> 00:47:32.640
I don't, I used to, you know,
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:36.900
use a pattern of assigning letters.
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:39.720
And so you have like, you know,
00:47:41.280 --> 00:47:41.780
based on like a hierarchy of,
00:47:43.340 --> 00:47:43.840
you've got the urgent and important,
00:47:47.300 --> 00:47:47.800
of course, that you got to deal with those.
00:47:50.280 --> 00:47:50.780
And then the next thing down is the important
00:48:00.060 --> 00:48:00.300
and so on. But I tend to just generate these
00:48:03.600 --> 00:48:04.000
terribly long lists that most of those items
00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:06.760
would go on what is known as a grass catchers
00:48:09.180 --> 00:48:09.680
list of things that you may get to someday,
00:48:11.780 --> 00:48:12.280
but there's no way you can get to them today.
00:48:16.120 --> 00:48:16.620
But I feel compelled, I need to capture them.
00:48:18.260 --> 00:48:18.760
I may want to do them eventually.
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:21.420
They wind up on my list.
00:48:24.660 --> 00:48:24.800
[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah, my idea on that is like with a
00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:26.980
Zettelkasten where you have the day thoughts
00:48:29.380 --> 00:48:29.580
and the day journal, then you have your
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:32.160
Zettelkasten which I don't think should have
00:48:34.740 --> 00:48:34.960
too close of a connection because one's a lot
00:48:37.940 --> 00:48:38.440
more, what's the word?
00:48:40.080 --> 00:48:40.580
[Speaker 0]: It's a knowledge base.
00:48:43.940 --> 00:48:44.440
[Speaker 2]: Optimized. Yes, one's more processed.
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:45.760
Yeah, that's the word.
00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:47.440
Yeah, one's actually much more processed.
00:48:50.220 --> 00:48:50.640
The other is you don't want that process
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:53.240
because you want it to flow from your head
00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:54.980
with as little friction as possible.
00:48:59.440 --> 00:48:59.940
The other 1 you want to be processed so that
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:02.120
when you look it up and stuff like that's
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:05.280
more efficient Same thing with your to-do
00:49:06.380 --> 00:49:06.680
things. So like oh, yeah,
00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:09.640
I guess there's 1 more Category like I
00:49:11.780 --> 00:49:11.980
thought I found my 3 favorite way rather than
00:49:15.720 --> 00:49:16.220
like priority 123 is primary tasks which
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:18.280
basically generally goes up to 3,
00:49:20.380 --> 00:49:20.460
secondary tasks, and then I like to have a
00:49:22.540 --> 00:49:23.040
third category, unplanned tasks,
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:26.180
and I just have those wrote down in a heading
00:49:28.520 --> 00:49:28.900
in an org mode file, and then I put the tasks
00:49:32.160 --> 00:49:32.660
in there, rather than using the agenda,
00:49:33.800 --> 00:49:34.040
like too much, I don't know,
00:49:40.240 --> 00:49:40.740
just I found that that was my favorite way of
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:43.820
doing it and then you have like another file
00:49:47.840 --> 00:49:48.000
that would just be your dump of anything you
00:49:51.440 --> 00:49:51.660
want to do and that would be like that you
00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:57.540
could pull from to get your day or I guess
00:49:59.240 --> 00:49:59.440
something that's actually better than a day
00:50:01.560 --> 00:50:01.720
is doing it all by a week at a time I found
00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:03.660
that that's actually a lot nicer because
00:50:06.600 --> 00:50:06.840
thinking about what you do in a week seems
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:09.840
like a nicer unit, where you have a week,
00:50:10.520 --> 00:50:11.020
then you have your day,
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:13.780
and then you have the 3 categories of
00:50:16.500 --> 00:50:17.000
priority, secondary, and unplanned.
00:50:20.860 --> 00:50:20.920
At least that's been my favorite iteration on
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.340
[Speaker 0]: thought process workflow.
00:50:31.500 --> 00:50:31.640
[Speaker 2]: the week of the to-do I had
00:50:33.820 --> 00:50:34.320
[Speaker 0]: a colleague that was very effective at
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:37.780
planning on a weekly basis and he would just
00:50:41.580 --> 00:50:41.900
get his weekly list of things to get done and
00:50:43.640 --> 00:50:43.860
he was very good at pounding through that
00:50:45.380 --> 00:50:45.880
list and getting them done.
00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:49.740
I have been too much of a day-oriented person
00:50:54.020 --> 00:50:54.200
and a week-oriented person to adapt his
00:50:56.760 --> 00:50:57.260
approach, but I've been considering that too.
00:51:03.080 --> 00:51:03.520
I think what I don't do enough of is pulling
00:51:05.640 --> 00:51:06.140
back to the month level,
00:51:08.100 --> 00:51:08.600
semester level, year level,
00:51:10.900 --> 00:51:11.400
5 year level, 10 year level.
00:51:11.880 --> 00:51:12.380
And...
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:16.200
[Speaker 2]: That's the advantage of finding it by a week
00:51:17.960 --> 00:51:18.120
is like you can have like so you'd have your
00:51:20.060 --> 00:51:20.560
week and then maybe you have like 1 section
00:51:24.440 --> 00:51:24.660
after Friday or last day of the week and this
00:51:27.660 --> 00:51:28.160
is like your this is just your like staging
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:30.460
so this is where you stage all the tasks and
00:51:32.560 --> 00:51:32.720
then what like you can just stay in your
00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:37.280
staging write them all down and then use alt
00:51:39.860 --> 00:51:40.040
and your arrow keys to quickly reorder all of
00:51:43.340 --> 00:51:43.640
them in the week and then when you're looking
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:46.300
at 1 day and you're just looking at ordering
00:51:48.820 --> 00:51:48.960
everything well it makes a lot of sense when
00:51:51.720 --> 00:51:51.960
you just say, I don't really want to do that.
00:51:53.160 --> 00:51:53.660
Like I want this done this week.
00:51:56.260 --> 00:51:56.500
I don't necessarily want it done on this day.
00:51:58.520 --> 00:51:58.740
So it just, that's why I found that the week
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:00.780
approach works a lot nicer even.
00:52:09.920 --> 00:52:10.260
[Speaker 0]: of a staging time you like schedule some time
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:12.380
in your week to do the staging.
00:52:14.620 --> 00:52:14.960
[Speaker 2]: Yeah. Is that way The staging is more of just
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:16.960
like, these are the things I would like to
00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:19.940
get done. And then when you schedule it,
00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:23.800
then you kind of schedule it by just using
00:52:26.240 --> 00:52:26.740
the Alt-Left key, the Alt-Arrow keys to just,
00:52:28.380 --> 00:52:28.580
oh, I want this done. It looks like this
00:52:29.860 --> 00:52:30.040
would work really good on this day.
00:52:31.620 --> 00:52:32.120
This 1 looks like it would work on this day.
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:39.300
[Speaker 0]: A, you still utilize org agenda?
00:52:45.140 --> 00:52:45.640
[Speaker 2]: I try to, I don't know,
00:52:49.120 --> 00:52:49.540
I found that it works at least better without
00:52:52.120 --> 00:52:52.620
it. Yeah, that's fine.
00:52:54.020 --> 00:52:54.340
Because that way I also get a log of
00:53:00.020 --> 00:53:00.140
everything I've done, which I can't find a
00:53:03.240 --> 00:53:03.400
way that, it seems easier to just make new
00:53:06.380 --> 00:53:06.760
files for it. And rather than,
00:53:08.160 --> 00:53:08.660
like you could use it with Org Agenda,
00:53:11.540 --> 00:53:12.040
but like 1 of the things that you want is
00:53:14.040 --> 00:53:14.540
with it is to look back at it,
00:53:18.380 --> 00:53:18.880
reflect. And so like if you have the,
00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:23.640
if you have, if you open up the file with 2
00:53:25.580 --> 00:53:25.760
levels or 3 levels of headings to where you
00:53:26.780 --> 00:53:27.040
just see the priority task,
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:30.300
you can get a very nice overview of saying,
00:53:33.860 --> 00:53:34.360
I did my priority task this day.
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.100
So you get the numbers next to the things.
00:53:40.200 --> 00:53:40.700
And so you can easily just say,
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:41.980
I've done this. I mean,
00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:43.520
it would be nice if I could figure out a way
00:53:45.240 --> 00:53:45.740
of doing agenda to give me percentages.
00:53:50.680 --> 00:53:51.180
But I haven't figured that out.
00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:54.780
Seeing the granular level,
00:53:57.100 --> 00:53:57.340
I can easily scan that with my eyes.
00:53:59.720 --> 00:53:59.900
So I just did it by hand rather than the
00:53:59.900 --> 00:54:00.400
agenda.
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:06.600
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I've, I've tried to use agenda a few
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:10.900
times and pretty seriously,
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:15.060
but I keep bouncing off it.
00:54:17.920 --> 00:54:18.160
I think I get too many things built in or
00:54:21.200 --> 00:54:21.700
scheduled and I just don't get to them.
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:26.500
I feel bad about it and I wind up abandoning
00:54:31.220 --> 00:54:31.500
it. So that's 1 area where there's probably
00:54:34.820 --> 00:54:35.040
some potential for optimizing and making that
00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:40.440
work better. There's a lot of customizing you
00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:42.780
can do with Agenda. It's amazing.
00:54:44.540 --> 00:54:45.040
[Speaker 2]: For me, it was though,
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:48.980
I wanted there to be a separation between the
00:54:52.120 --> 00:54:52.420
daily to-do lists and like your grab bag
00:54:54.480 --> 00:54:54.600
which I think agenda works a lot better for a
00:54:58.040 --> 00:54:58.440
grab bag. I want a nice way of looking back
00:55:01.560 --> 00:55:02.060
at my to-do daily to-do logs.
00:55:05.980 --> 00:55:06.340
So I kind of want them to be separated,
00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:08.980
so I just did them separate.
00:55:12.540 --> 00:55:12.680
With the agenda, I could never figure out
00:55:14.060 --> 00:55:14.560
exactly how I want that to work,
00:55:15.620 --> 00:55:16.120
how the files would look,
00:55:18.580 --> 00:55:18.960
and how all the Emacs settings would interact
00:55:21.300 --> 00:55:21.660
with it. I mean, I'm sure I could,
00:55:28.780 --> 00:55:29.160
but that's why I opted for weekly files.
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:35.140
Or at least That's my most refined idea on
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:35.780
the process.
00:55:41.000 --> 00:55:41.400
[Speaker 0]: That's a good idea. So I've taken my approach
00:55:43.940 --> 00:55:44.440
is a little different that I'm generating
00:55:46.760 --> 00:55:46.960
this text on a daily basis and popping it
00:55:52.660 --> 00:55:52.900
into this to 1 document file per day and a
00:55:59.020 --> 00:55:59.300
like a diary on Overleaf as a big so it winds
00:56:01.950 --> 00:56:02.450
[Speaker 2]: sections
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:05.600
[Speaker 0]: up being 365 and where every month is a
00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:11.640
chapter and it's compiled quickly enough even
00:56:13.100 --> 00:56:13.480
though it's often up to 1,000
00:56:14.780 --> 00:56:15.280
pages long by the end of the year.
00:56:17.220 --> 00:56:17.500
And I have all these, of course,
00:56:19.240 --> 00:56:19.700
with the PDF, I can search through it.
00:56:22.540 --> 00:56:22.760
So that's not as you can't do the kind of
00:56:24.380 --> 00:56:24.560
really sophisticated searching that you can
00:56:29.340 --> 00:56:29.840
do with Org Mode. But just doing that,
00:56:33.620 --> 00:56:33.800
It sure has been very helpful in digging up
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:39.680
information, like the little protocols on how
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:43.460
I attack, accomplish a certain task that I
00:56:45.420 --> 00:56:45.920
have to do a year later,
00:56:50.440 --> 00:56:50.540
or to have a record of what I did on a
00:56:54.220 --> 00:56:54.400
certain day and then somebody above me might
00:56:57.100 --> 00:56:57.340
be trying to hold me to account what got
00:56:59.580 --> 00:57:00.080
done. I can look that up pretty very quickly.
00:57:05.140 --> 00:57:05.320
It's documented. I find that to be just any
00:57:09.520 --> 00:57:09.840
kind of thorough documentation system is very
00:57:16.080 --> 00:57:16.320
[Speaker 2]: I also mess with having it all in 1 file
00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:17.940
rather than by a weak file.
00:57:20.140 --> 00:57:20.640
[Speaker 0]: useful. And at least what I did.
00:57:21.820 --> 00:57:22.320
I ran into trouble with,
00:57:25.380 --> 00:57:25.880
like, once you get a lot of items,
00:57:27.040 --> 00:57:27.540
like if you have 1,000
00:57:30.580 --> 00:57:30.780
items, headings, I've had org files with
00:57:33.680 --> 00:57:34.180
1,000 headings. It can be so hard to scroll
00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:39.280
through. Maybe it's some limitations I'm run
00:57:42.240 --> 00:57:42.740
into with the Emacs being single threaded.
00:57:49.120 --> 00:57:49.620
[Speaker 2]: At least with, yeah. Yeah.
00:57:52.420 --> 00:57:52.920
It was like, that's 1 of the things is like,
00:57:54.240 --> 00:57:54.520
how exactly do you want this,
00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:56.120
the information structured because it can
00:57:56.820 --> 00:57:57.320
change how it's retrieved.
00:58:00.260 --> 00:58:00.760
[Speaker 0]: Ooh, most definitely. Most definitely.
00:58:08.200 --> 00:58:08.560
[Speaker 2]: So as an example, when I was doing the daily
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:14.960
logs and I put it all in the date and then
00:58:15.700 --> 00:58:16.200
the priority, secondary,
00:58:21.980 --> 00:58:22.100
unplanned tasks, and then I had it stay at
00:58:24.940 --> 00:58:25.120
that, get auto expanded by that level by
00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:27.780
default so I didn't see the individual task
00:58:30.720 --> 00:58:30.860
and you and then I had a but And then it
00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:33.420
would say like I complete 205 or something
00:58:34.440 --> 00:58:34.940
like that of secondary tasks.
00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:38.400
And then just being able just to quickly scan
00:58:39.740 --> 00:58:40.240
all the days and say, oh,
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:43.260
it just, the feedback you get from that is
00:58:46.300 --> 00:58:46.500
worth a lot. And I don't think it's
00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:48.120
something, it's not something I could think
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:49.820
of how you do an agenda.
00:58:53.300 --> 00:58:53.540
Even though I got done in the text files just
00:58:57.260 --> 00:58:57.400
because you get that doesn't expand all the
00:58:59.580 --> 00:58:59.800
way so you so you can quickly just see on
00:59:01.940 --> 00:59:02.140
this day I did this well on this day I did
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:06.300
this well all within and 4 lines per day.
00:59:11.040 --> 00:59:11.420
So it's not, that doesn't,
00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:13.420
that's not very visually verbose.
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:17.080
Probably about as visually verbose as you
00:59:18.640 --> 00:59:19.140
want it. They're not super long.
00:59:23.000 --> 00:59:23.200
You easily see the 2 of 3 and stuff like that
00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:25.420
that you get done so you can quickly and say,
00:59:29.380 --> 00:59:29.600
oh well, these are the days where I got my
00:59:31.300 --> 00:59:31.800
primary tasks done or this week,
00:59:36.340 --> 00:59:36.500
and this day I didn't do it well and you
00:59:38.300 --> 00:59:38.740
could helps you correlate like your feelings
00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:42.620
with your to-do lists and journals and
00:59:42.620 --> 00:59:43.120
whatnot.
00:59:48.940 --> 00:59:49.440
[Speaker 0]: Yeah I think that's very powerful.
00:59:53.300 --> 00:59:53.800
Because it's summarizing capability.
00:59:57.560 --> 00:59:58.060
It allows you to, you know,
01:00:00.656 --> 01:00:00.784
pull back and get an overview.
01:00:01.040 --> 01:00:01.540
Get an overview.
01:00:07.580 --> 01:00:08.080
[Speaker 2]: And yeah, as I said, it's like the feedback
01:00:10.600 --> 01:00:10.760
from that almost when I did that,
01:00:12.620 --> 01:00:12.800
it feels like half the reason or should be
01:00:14.580 --> 01:00:14.900
like half the reason is and it's something
01:00:19.120 --> 01:00:19.340
that I don't if you use the agenda as it is,
01:00:21.220 --> 01:00:21.360
you wouldn't, I don't know how you would get
01:00:23.160 --> 01:00:23.360
it, like saying, like looking at the week by
01:00:25.080 --> 01:00:25.580
week basis, breakdowns,
01:00:27.120 --> 01:00:27.620
you might be able to get like percentages,
01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:30.900
which would be nice. Like I did this well,
01:00:33.700 --> 01:00:34.120
or like habit, I don't,
01:00:35.640 --> 01:00:35.920
there might be things that could offer you
01:00:39.700 --> 01:00:40.200
but. Yeah,
01:00:46.780 --> 01:00:47.280
[Speaker 0]: so I'm pretty obsessed about tracking effort
01:00:48.560 --> 01:00:49.060
on various kinds of projects,
01:00:52.020 --> 01:00:52.520
or various kinds of activities,
01:00:57.880 --> 01:00:58.360
and to get some feedback in that regard.
01:00:59.500 --> 01:01:00.000
And then you, but you got the,
01:01:02.040 --> 01:01:02.540
So I define a project as anything that
01:01:06.300 --> 01:01:06.780
requires work at different points in time,
01:01:07.040 --> 01:01:07.540
more than 1
01:01:15.300 --> 01:01:15.520
[Speaker 2]: time. I'll email you my org mode template
01:01:17.560 --> 01:01:18.060
that I made that demonstrates that.
01:01:22.200 --> 01:01:22.700
I don't know if you, do you have your email
01:01:24.520 --> 01:01:25.020
in your talk notes or anything?
01:01:29.380 --> 01:01:29.700
[Speaker 0]: Okay. I think I should have it on the first
01:01:31.560 --> 01:01:32.060
slide. There should be my email address.
01:01:40.560 --> 01:01:41.060
I can add it to my talk notes.
01:01:46.920 --> 01:01:47.040
[Speaker 2]: Okay. Would you want me to show it to you at
01:01:48.940 --> 01:01:49.440
[Speaker 0]: that'd be great.
01:01:52.600 --> 01:01:53.100
[Speaker 2]: all? Sure, All right, let's see.
01:02:20.842 --> 01:02:20.905
I'm going to share screen button,
01:02:21.220 --> 01:02:21.520
right? There's a share screen button,
01:02:21.520 --> 01:02:22.020
right?
01:02:26.160 --> 01:02:26.660
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, so, let's see.
01:02:59.243 --> 01:02:59.743
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I'm all. That's the right button.
01:03:04.640 --> 01:03:05.140
Can you not share the screen on this?
01:03:08.860 --> 01:03:09.360
[Speaker 0]: I have something going here.
01:03:13.900 --> 01:03:14.400
Let's see. I have, I see some stuff on here.
01:03:18.160 --> 01:03:18.660
Wonder if I'm still active.
01:03:21.180 --> 01:03:21.680
It shows share screen.
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:22.780
Cancel.
01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:28.760
[Speaker 2]: Maybe they just did it through OBS.
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:47.780
[Speaker 0]: Maybe I only have permission to share.
01:03:53.900 --> 01:03:54.400
I can put my email address in the chat.
01:03:59.440 --> 01:03:59.620
[Speaker 2]: I guess I'll just email it to you,
01:04:06.600 --> 01:04:06.840
but Let's see. Yeah, I think the way that
01:04:11.260 --> 01:04:11.460
they did it on the Any of the other videos if
01:04:13.780 --> 01:04:14.020
they shared the screen they just shared the
01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:17.560
webcam they just took over the webcam with
01:04:20.380 --> 01:04:20.880
OBS and shared what they wanted with it.
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:23.260
[Speaker 0]: Oh, okay.
01:04:24.720 --> 01:04:25.180
[Speaker 2]: At least I'm guessing.
01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:27.460
Yeah, I'll give that to you.
01:04:31.080 --> 01:04:31.240
Okay. I guess I'll let you go watch the rest
01:04:32.240 --> 01:04:32.740
of the Emacs videos.
01:04:34.640 --> 01:04:35.140
[Speaker 0]: This has been a great conversation.
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:37.780
Thank you very much. I appreciate your
01:04:39.620 --> 01:04:39.840
willingness to share your thoughts on this
01:04:42.980 --> 01:04:43.480
matter. This is vital,
01:04:48.260 --> 01:04:48.440
time management. It's a kind of key aspect of
01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:48.940
life.
01:04:54.680 --> 01:04:55.180
[Speaker 2]: Oh yeah. The way the how the function.
01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:03.820
Reasons to use emacs is to use the keyboard
01:05:08.240 --> 01:05:08.420
is. It's not to speed you up.
01:05:09.520 --> 01:05:10.020
Like, yeah, that's nice.
01:05:12.280 --> 01:05:12.780
But it keeps you in the stream,
01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:25.760
keeps you in the flow state and which then
01:05:32.780 --> 01:05:32.900
just makes you think better and yeah and the
01:05:35.540 --> 01:05:35.780
thing with that is you I have you I have no
01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:37.980
idea what the limits of that would be.
01:05:39.680 --> 01:05:40.020
Because you think, because yes,
01:05:42.740 --> 01:05:42.900
it's not about beating up how many words you
01:05:44.860 --> 01:05:45.060
say a minute. I mean that's nice and all,
01:05:46.680 --> 01:05:46.920
But when you start doing that,
01:05:48.340 --> 01:05:48.840
when you start removing all these friction
01:05:52.500 --> 01:05:53.000
points, all of a sudden the number,
01:05:57.800 --> 01:05:58.300
quality, and types of thoughts you get start
01:06:01.620 --> 01:06:02.120
[Speaker 0]: That's right.
01:06:03.480 --> 01:06:03.980
[Speaker 2]: increasing. Which is the goal.
01:06:14.960 --> 01:06:15.460
[Speaker 0]: Okay. Well, thank you very much.
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.260
Enjoy the rest of the meeting.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:19.780
[Speaker 2]: Will do.
