path: root/2023/captions/emacsconf-2023-teaching--teaching-computer-and-data-science-with-literate-programming-tools--marcus-birkenkrahe--answers.vtt

WEBVTT


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[Speaker 0]: Again, second only live Q&A of the day.

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So, things are still a bit rusty,

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but believe me, by the end of the morning,

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we will be well-oiled machinery.

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So, hi Marcus, how are you doing?

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[Speaker 1]: I'm fine, Thank you.

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[Speaker 0]: I really liked, most people might have

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forgotten, but you started your presentation

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with the, in a very dark room and with this

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typical note of dry German humor that I

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particularly liked.

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[Speaker 1]: Whereas I told you we're born without humour

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so any sense of humour is the result of very

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hard work.

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[Speaker 0]: Well I can confirm therefore that your work

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is evident in this particular remark.

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So as we did before and perhaps this time

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more punctiliously, terrible adverb,

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that's why I'm an English major we will be

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taking questions first from the pad and then

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we'll be moving on to people in the BBV room.

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Let me just check if we have some people.

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We do have some people.

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All right, so Markus, I'm gonna ask you the

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questions in the pad unless you have

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something to remark first.

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[Speaker 1]: Yes, oh no, no, I don't have nothing to

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remark. I mean, only that we're coming to the

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end of the term here, and I think in the

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paper that I wrote, I expressed doubt that

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Emacs was good for beginners,

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but I've now gone back to an interactive

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notebook in the class without Emacs,

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and I've just missed it terribly the whole

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term. And I think I saw you walk too,

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so that's kind of interesting.

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That's it.

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[Speaker 0]: Right. All right, well,

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let's get started with the questions because

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I'm a little worried that we might acquire

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debt because of the time that we have.

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And just to be clear, so that you also know

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the time at which we're supposed to be

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finishing, the next talk here on this track

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is supposed to be at 10.40,

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which is in 13 minutes from now.

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All right, with that said,

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starting with the first questions.

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What tools do you use for making your slides?

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They are very nice and I concur.

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OrgReveal?

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[Speaker 1]: I use OrgReveal. It's a package,

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OrgReveal. I don't have the link right now,

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but it's an org mode package where You create

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some meta information and I think it's

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basically JavaScript, JavaScript package that

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will work from a bunch of different

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platforms, but it works particularly well

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from Emacs. So you use that a lot.

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[Speaker 0]: Right, yeah, I think it is definitely

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interacting with JavaScript in the background

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and it makes for a very clean presentation

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right from Emacs. I mean,

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it's not opened in Emacs unless you use a web

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browser in Emacs that supports such

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compositing but it's pretty convenient and I

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recommend looking into it.

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[Speaker 1]: I'm just going to share the URL here.

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So if anybody's interested.

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[Speaker 0]: Right, and we'll be putting all the links

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right now. So obviously right now,

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Marcus is writing inside of his own Emacs,

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but we also have the pad.

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We'll make sure that you have all the links

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accessible a little bit later.

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Okay, moving on to the next question,

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why MDPI?

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[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, well that's a little bit of a longer

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answer, kind of boring I suppose.

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So when I came here to the US,

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I used to teach a lot of graduate courses and

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I had to suddenly teach a lot of

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undergraduate courses,

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which partly motivated this move because it

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made me realize, as I said in the

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presentation, how little the students

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understand of the underlying infrastructure

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and how important it is for them to work with

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an IDE that doesn't make coding especially

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convenient, but that teaches them a lot of

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the stuff on the side,

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you know, while still presenting a very

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smooth environment, which developers

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appreciate as well. So I came here and I used

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to publish like 4 or 5 research papers per

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year, but I didn't have the time.

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So I was contacted by MDPI.

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And it's 1 of those research paper mills,

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which seem to be springing up where authors

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can, really the institutions of the authors

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have to pay so that they can publish,

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right? So it's not really,

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and I checked them out and they seem to be

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proper peer review publishing,

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but to be absolutely sure I said,

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well, you can have my article,

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but of course for free,

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I'm not going to pay for you to publish it.

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And so that's what they did.

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They invited me and I submitted the paper and

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it was a very good process.

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That was a very, it was a good peer review

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critique. So I changed the paper quite a bit.

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It's still not a great paper.

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It's just a small case study.

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That's the kind of thing that you have a lot

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in medical research where also people don't

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have a lot of time to do research,

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proper research, which takes a very long

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time. And so that's why MDPI.

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And they are in the most of the relevant

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citation indices. So they are reputable

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enough. I mean, normally I would say for

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anybody who does anything like this,

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you might not even want to bother with the

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journal these days anymore.

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You just go straight to ArcSci,

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put out your preprint.

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And in fact, what will happen if you're on

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ArcSci, if somebody finds it interesting,

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they're going to reach out to you to capture

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your paper and have it published under their

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heading. Oh yeah, actually the other reason

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why I wanted MDPI is because there were open

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access from the start.

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And I really like, if you go to the paper,

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I really like the way it's presented.

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So I looked at a few papers and I thought

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it's a really nice online access,

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online open access solution.

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That's the long answer,

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sorry.

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[Speaker 0]: No, that was perfectly fine and you provided

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many details so it was far from a boring

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answer, let me reassure you.

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Moving on to the question,

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we only have about 8 minutes left so I'd like

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to finish those 2 questions and let people in

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the audience speak. So do you think immersion

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can be achieved on teaching other students

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with different backgrounds?

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[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, that's a really good question.

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I had actually a discussion last night with

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my wife in bed about this,

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about the use of textbooks which are famously

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non-immersive because they're consumed away

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from the class. Very rarely you sit in class

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like people used to do and read something

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together. Maybe they did that in English.

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And that is of course instantly immersive.

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But in computer science,

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many other topics, psychology,

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you know, biology and so on,

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you cannot get immersion,

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at least not in a lecture theater.

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You get it in a lab because people solve the

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problem and then they're immersed in it.

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So, but my answer would be,

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yes, I can think totally immersion can be

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achieved anywhere, but what you have to do is

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you have to not lecture and you have to let

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students do work as you go along.

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So I used to lecture quite a bit because I

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was an insecure young professor and just read

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all my slides and my notes as I used to use,

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as everybody uses to when they start.

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But as I went along, I realized,

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you know, I've got such a grasp of the topic

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that I really everything I do now is prepared

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in Emacs in an interactive way so I start

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saying a few words and then the students

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immediately we get to work and they seem to

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love that because in most of the other

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classes people just talk at them they take

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their stuff home and work at home,

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which is of course is super.

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But most of the students,

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if they have, in at least in a liberal arts

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college, they have 5 other classes,

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they do not take a lot of time to do the work

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at home. So it's, you know,

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yeah, It's kind of different.

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It's kind of risky, yeah,

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but the main point I was trying to make is

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Emacs and Org Mode really helped me to boil

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that interactive session down to something

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that will work in the classroom.

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I don't have to jump around between

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platforms. For example,

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this term, and I didn't use Emacs in the

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class with the students,

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I had to render using a package.

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It's actually a very nice package called,

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what's it called? Ox, what's it called?

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Ox, Ox IPNB. It's called Ox IPNB.

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So what it does is it renders in the usual

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way with Emacs, Org Mode does,

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renders interactive notebook files in

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Jupyter. And that took me a lot of time.

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And I immediately noticed as soon as the

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teacher has to fight platforms themselves,

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they take the ball off the immersion task,

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you know, to keep the student on the problem.

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[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Oh, go on, please.

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Yeah. I was going to remark that.

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[Speaker 1]: So yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

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I suppose it might be MIT style.

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Big difference though,

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my classes are very, very short,

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small. So I have like between 10 and 15

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students per class. 1 of the reasons why I

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went to this college is because I was fed up

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teaching, trying to teach hundreds of

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students. Okay, sorry,

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do some of your students nag you about using

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VS Code? Yes, they do,

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but their arguments aren't very good.

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They hadn't really compared Emacs and VS

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Code. And what I do, actually I use RStudio

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as well, demonstrate VS Code,

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RStudio and Emacs. And I think it's very easy

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for them to see. And there are some videos

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about that as well, how much easier it is to

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get into Emacs to limit your investments to

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what you actually wanna do.

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When the problem with VS Code is it comes at

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you with this sort of Microsoft store

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ideology, like a gazillion plugins,

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which if you're a developer,

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you know what you want.

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And I mean, it's a bit like VS Code is like

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Google search for as if you were programming

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in Google search, a complete waste of time.

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Having said that, I've also seen some videos

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with people who really know how to use VS

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Code. And of course, you know,

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if somebody gets on the inside of a tool and

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spends upwards of a thousand hours in the

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tool, they'll be great.

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But that's not true for beginners.

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So hold on, there's another 1.

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I'm reading them, sorry.

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Leo, I can see the questions,

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but you may wanna turn them around.

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[Speaker 0]: No, No, no, please, please,

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you're free to read them.

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I'm on your fasted computer.

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[Speaker 1]: Some of you, too, that's the nagging.

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I teach simple programming at a vocational

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school, and even after showing the students

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Vim, Vim, of course, is a contender,

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and now I'm telling them I prefer Emacs.

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They still all choose VS Code as their

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editor. Well, okay, what I did is mandatory.

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I didn't let them choose.

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That's what I did. And I thought that was

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quite risky, but in the end,

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it turns out that the best students loved it

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and keep using Emacs in their jobs.

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I hear that now. The students in the middle

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were probably the ones who would pick VS Code

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because every tutorial they see,

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they learn a lot through YouTube and so

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everything they see is in VS Code.

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If there were more tutorials in Emacs,

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I'm trying to make some,

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then of course that would be different.

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But I think it's partly brainwashing and

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partly, of course, the other reason is there

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is no online Emacs. They use VS Code Dev,

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right? And that's, of course,

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they use an online cloud solution.

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Like most of the students in the high school,

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I teach Python in the high school right now,

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and the students only get Chromebooks that

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are completely cut down to nothing.

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They cannot have Linux on their Chromebooks.

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So what are they supposed to do?

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Their only choice really is Repl.

00:12:21.760 --> 00:12:24.240
Repl.com is a possibility for them to do

00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:27.540
that. But, you know, or they use code spaces,

00:12:27.660 --> 00:12:29.560
which is VS Code in GitHub.

00:12:31.400 --> 00:12:32.640
[Speaker 0]: Marcus, sorry for the interruption.

00:12:32.640 --> 00:12:34.040
We only have about 2 minutes left.

00:12:34.040 --> 00:12:35.380
So if you could take 1 question,

00:12:35.380 --> 00:12:36.760
that would be great. Sorry.

00:12:30.660 --> 00:12:38.100
[Speaker 1]: So. I'm observing the same behavior.

00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:40.080
Any more tutorials will be most welcome.

00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.660
Yes, I I'd love to. I spent the rest of my

00:12:43.660 --> 00:12:46.100
days on this earth making Emacs tutorials if

00:12:48.263 --> 00:12:49.267
[Speaker 0]: tutorials if I can.

00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:49.769
[Speaker 1]: I can. Thank you. DMAX Thank you.

00:12:49.769 --> 00:12:51.040
Approach to handling EDA.

00:12:51.140 --> 00:12:52.700
Oh yeah, with white data sets.

00:12:56.760 --> 00:12:58.940
Well, that's a good point.

00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.260
[Speaker 0]: So Markus, I don't want to put you under too

00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:06.680
[Speaker 1]: answer the question. The handling EDA,

00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:08.760
I don't know, if you look at the comments,

00:13:08.760 --> 00:13:09.960
I think these are on YouTube,

00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:11.340
right, at some point, Leo?

00:13:03.260 --> 00:13:12.600
[Speaker 0]: much pressure to Oh yes,

00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:13.860
they will definitely be on YouTube.

00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:14.540
answer the

00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.580
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to question you asked about the

00:13:15.580 --> 00:13:17.560
EDA, that's too long to go into right now,

00:13:17.560 --> 00:13:21.100
plus my cat is here. So I'm going to answer

00:13:21.100 --> 00:13:22.620
that in the comments, all right?

00:13:23.000 --> 00:13:24.160
Start up the conversation.

00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:27.800
Yes, I'm going to post that in the comments

00:13:27.800 --> 00:13:28.480
as well.

00:13:29.320 --> 00:13:31.500
[Speaker 0]: Sure, but Also, just to be clear,

00:13:31.500 --> 00:13:32.640
Marcus, you're going to continue the

00:13:32.640 --> 00:13:35.440
discussion. It's just a stream that will be

00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:37.160
moving on to the next talk in about 50

00:13:37.160 --> 00:13:39.380
seconds. Marcus, feel free to keep answering

00:13:39.380 --> 00:13:40.760
questions inside this room.

00:13:40.760 --> 00:13:42.780
You also have people, we're going to check

00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:44.540
aside with the stream,

00:13:44.540 --> 00:13:46.280
we have a number of people in the room.

00:13:46.280 --> 00:13:48.300
You can see them on the left on the button

00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:51.360
who are probably going to unmute themselves

00:13:51.460 --> 00:13:52.580
and ask you questions.

00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:54.440
So feel free to stay in the room,

00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.100
answer as lengthy as you want the questions

00:13:57.100 --> 00:13:58.700
because that's more content for us and we

00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:01.640
love it obviously. But it's just that I

00:14:01.640 --> 00:14:03.760
personally will be leaving to take care of

00:14:03.760 --> 00:14:04.860
the rest of the talks.

00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:06.880
So, Markus, do you have any last words before

00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:07.740
we move on?

00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:09.680
[Speaker 1]: No, just thank you for this wonderful...

00:14:09.680 --> 00:14:11.080
I'm going to copy this.

00:14:11.660 --> 00:14:13.280
I don't think I listened to the talk by

00:14:13.280 --> 00:14:15.200
Sascha yet, but I'm going to do that because

00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:18.080
I really want to copy this conference format.

00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:19.860
I think that is the conference format of the

00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:21.820
future, using volunteers to put together

00:14:21.820 --> 00:14:23.100
conferences. So I can't wait.

00:14:23.100 --> 00:14:24.720
Nobody wants to come to Batesville where I

00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:25.840
am, but thank you so much.

00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.180
That was really super professional.

00:14:27.180 --> 00:14:28.040
I love that.

00:14:28.980 --> 00:14:32.420
[Speaker 0]: Great. Okay, we are almost perfectly on time.

00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:35.420
I think we caught up about 1 or 2 seconds

00:14:35.420 --> 00:14:37.200
into the last sentence you said but otherwise

00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.960
we were splendidly on time.

00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:40.260
So thank you so much Marcus.

00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.140
[Speaker 1]: You're welcome. So I wanted to say a little

00:14:43.140 --> 00:14:46.660
bit about that question about handling EDA.

00:14:51.220 --> 00:14:52.960
[Speaker 0]: Can you see the chat on the left?

00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:54.720
Because people have started asking questions

00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.180
on the left. Can you see the chat?

00:14:49.460 --> 00:14:56.866
[Speaker 1]: I mean I used email. Sorry,

00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:00.820
[Speaker 0]: So you've got multiple avenues for questions.

00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:01.166
[Speaker 2]: You can

00:15:01.166 --> 00:15:02.380
[Speaker 0]: still answer questions in the chat.

00:14:57.053 --> 00:15:03.760
[Speaker 1]: sorry, sorry. Okay, I'm just going to go into

00:15:03.760 --> 00:15:05.240
that. Yeah, that's fine.

00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:06.760
[Speaker 0]: Sure, I'll need to go now.

00:15:06.760 --> 00:15:08.560
So Marcus, have a great day and I'll probably

00:15:08.560 --> 00:15:09.360
see you later.

00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:12.280
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, thank you. Sorry.

00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:15.620
Bye bye. There was a question about the,

00:15:15.620 --> 00:15:17.560
I wanted to ask the answer the question about

00:15:17.560 --> 00:15:21.760
EDA, large data sets. So,

00:15:21.760 --> 00:15:24.660
I mean, I teach undergraduate now,

00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.100
so there's a limited number of courses,

00:15:28.660 --> 00:15:32.360
like where I use, actually have big data

00:15:32.360 --> 00:15:36.100
issues. And I mean I'm not saying that I'm

00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:38.760
not that I don't run into performance issues

00:15:38.760 --> 00:15:40.580
with Emacs. I obviously do.

00:15:40.680 --> 00:15:43.680
But like the performance issues in Emacs are

00:15:43.680 --> 00:15:45.780
comparable to performance issues for example

00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:49.580
when using R. In R everything is in memory So

00:15:49.640 --> 00:15:52.700
you are limited to the available,

00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.020
what is it, 2 gigabyte or whatever memory of

00:15:56.020 --> 00:15:58.180
your computer. So you would have to find

00:15:58.180 --> 00:16:00.360
other infrastructure solutions anyway.

00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:05.860
The advantage of using Emacs is that I can,

00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:07.620
within 1 Org Mode file,

00:16:08.140 --> 00:16:10.220
connect to an external database.

00:16:11.760 --> 00:16:13.840
I can even, as probably most of you know,

00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.860
I can even use it as a text-based web browser

00:16:17.860 --> 00:16:20.640
if I want to. So I could look at individual

00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:26.820
files. And the other point of EDA of course

00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:30.640
is that you're not supposed to look at the

00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:33.260
tables. You're supposed to get the basic

00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:41.300
frame of your data. Is there a header?

00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:43.780
What's the approximate size and stuff like

00:16:43.780 --> 00:16:45.940
that? And then you're supposed to import it

00:16:45.940 --> 00:16:47.580
into a data frame ideally,

00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:51.260
at least in portions. And I don't think,

00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.260
yeah, so that's it. But the full answer is

00:16:56.260 --> 00:16:59.980
that I have not done big data analysis in

00:16:59.980 --> 00:17:02.280
Emacs. So that's actually a really nice

00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:06.060
extension. I'm going to write that down as a

00:17:06.060 --> 00:17:08.260
thing to talk about in some future talk.

00:17:08.260 --> 00:17:10.819
Okay, so ADA with big data.

00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:13.940
Even though interesting would be to know what

00:17:13.940 --> 00:17:16.560
kind of size of data you're actually talking

00:17:16.560 --> 00:17:19.300
about. So I don't know,

00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:25.940
what is it, upwards of 1 terabyte or

00:17:25.940 --> 00:17:27.520
something like that, I don't know.

00:17:27.520 --> 00:17:29.020
That'd be interesting to know.

00:17:31.560 --> 00:17:34.940
Haven't done that in class.

00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:40.460
So there's another question.

00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:43.020
Proportion of students that you think would

00:17:43.020 --> 00:17:44.820
keep on using Emacs after your course?

00:17:44.820 --> 00:17:46.000
That's not a difficult question,

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.880
because as I said, I have very small classes.

00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.200
I've been here since 2 years.

00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:51.540
So I'm in touch with almost all the students.

00:17:51.580 --> 00:17:54.760
In fact, I'm getting them work after school.

00:17:54.760 --> 00:17:55.980
So that's really cool.

00:17:56.200 --> 00:18:00.660
And everybody who took to Emacs really

00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:03.900
seriously, so probably about 25% or so keep

00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:06.160
using Emacs after, afterwards.

00:18:06.560 --> 00:18:08.360
I mean, even in the job,

00:18:08.360 --> 00:18:10.080
right, in the professional field.

00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.080
Who, those who keep using Emacs after the

00:18:13.080 --> 00:18:15.180
course, I think the number is greater,

00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:16.920
but I have not followed up on that.

00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:23.140
I have to, my guess is more than half,

00:18:23.140 --> 00:18:25.360
I would say, half or more than half.

00:18:26.660 --> 00:18:27.880
Oh, Aaron, thank you so much.

00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:31.320
That's very sweet. But I didn't think the

00:18:31.320 --> 00:18:32.300
presentation was great.

00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:33.840
I was thinking about redoing it,

00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:35.700
but this is actually the first take.

00:18:36.280 --> 00:18:38.860
It was late, I had lots of other stuff to do.

00:18:40.840 --> 00:18:44.700
I think what I'm more interested in than

00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:47.260
papers is probably this idea of making

00:18:48.320 --> 00:18:51.020
Emacs-based data science videos because there

00:18:51.020 --> 00:18:52.120
aren't many out there.

00:18:52.120 --> 00:18:53.600
Most of the people who do,

00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.240
and computer science, most people who do that

00:18:57.240 --> 00:18:59.240
are not either developers and certainly not

00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.080
teachers. So I think that's a good idea.

00:19:02.080 --> 00:19:03.740
I'm gonna pick that up.

00:19:03.860 --> 00:19:15.540
So to do more Remax based data science videos

00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:20.200
Is there anything else?

00:19:20.800 --> 00:19:22.360
More people. There are some people here in

00:19:22.360 --> 00:19:23.300
the room still.

00:19:23.800 --> 00:19:26.100
[Speaker 2]: If you do a PSVL on work.

00:19:27.040 --> 00:19:31.140
What? Or wiki. What's my YouTube channel?

00:19:34.460 --> 00:19:36.220
[Speaker 1]: Oh, yeah, I'm going to give you the,

00:19:36.560 --> 00:19:38.520
I've got a bunch of different YouTube

00:19:38.520 --> 00:19:40.720
channels. I'm going to put them in the

00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:43.240
comments to my talk. Hold on,

00:19:43.660 --> 00:19:46.500
the 1 where I have the latest Emacs videos,

00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.740
you find my name, there's nobody in the world

00:19:48.740 --> 00:19:51.060
with my name. So if you look for Gerten Krag

00:19:52.120 --> 00:19:55.740
on YouTube, then you will find it.

00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:00.300
But I got a bunch of them.

00:20:00.300 --> 00:20:01.900
Hold on, I'm going to give you the...

00:20:13.260 --> 00:20:20.040
My channel. Okay, This 1 has only got a few

00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:24.300
videos. But so there's 1 with a lot more.

00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:32.720
Few recent videos. And I'm going to post

00:20:32.740 --> 00:20:41.320
more. Other ones in the comments of this

00:20:41.320 --> 00:20:44.320
video. Okay, what else?

00:20:48.780 --> 00:20:51.140
I'm trying to find my way back to the button.

00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:59.200
Okay, cool. Oh, yes, thank you.

00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.500
I will. That's very good.

00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.120
Thank you so much. Of course,

00:21:03.120 --> 00:21:05.940
I use Vork. I hadn't even thought of it.

00:21:06.360 --> 00:21:15.140
Very good. It's interesting,

00:21:15.860 --> 00:21:18.020
that's something that comes to my mind.

00:21:18.120 --> 00:21:19.700
When I was a young student,

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:24.020
right, people who used Emacs and the web

00:21:24.020 --> 00:21:25.920
wasn't particularly large.

00:21:25.960 --> 00:21:29.440
So the volunteers would automatically make

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.420
videos but not for commercial purposes.

00:21:31.560 --> 00:21:34.740
Now you have an army of people who make

00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:37.700
commercial videos and the videos are usually

00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:41.020
good for the first 10% of every content,

00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:42.540
but as soon as it gets a little more

00:21:42.540 --> 00:21:44.760
difficult, they either don't know what to do

00:21:44.760 --> 00:21:48.600
anymore or they don't do it because it's not

00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:50.980
commercially viable. The number of people who

00:21:50.980 --> 00:21:53.720
move on is gets smaller and smaller and

00:21:53.720 --> 00:21:55.740
smaller. So there's no commerce anymore.

00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:57.840
But when I was a student,

00:21:58.740 --> 00:22:01.020
pretty much all the documentation everywhere

00:22:01.100 --> 00:22:02.360
was created by volunteers,

00:22:02.500 --> 00:22:04.840
just like this conference or like anything in

00:22:04.840 --> 00:22:09.520
org mode. And that doesn't seem to be much of

00:22:09.520 --> 00:22:12.760
a trend anymore, but maybe we can resurrect

00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:22.960
it. So yes, I'm definitely gonna contribute

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:26.760
to that. Multiple people are typing here.

00:22:30.280 --> 00:22:36.180
Oh, sorry. Yes. Thank you so much.

00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.920
I'm gonna put that, I'm gonna rectify that in

00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:45.260
the comment. Having said that,

00:22:45.260 --> 00:22:49.820
I am not 100% sure that I didn't lie here.

00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:52.760
May just be because I didn't have much time

00:22:52.760 --> 00:22:54.340
to put the presentation together.

00:22:54.340 --> 00:22:56.820
And it's perfectly possible that that's

00:22:56.820 --> 00:22:59.760
actually Google slides and not all reveal.

00:23:00.040 --> 00:23:02.360
In the classroom when I present and just do

00:23:02.360 --> 00:23:04.100
lectures, I always do reveal,

00:23:04.600 --> 00:23:07.900
but most of the time I do a tree slide.

00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:10.840
That's the quickest way to do it for me.

00:23:10.840 --> 00:23:15.060
So, so presentation. Hold on,

00:23:15.060 --> 00:23:16.580
Let me just copy this 1.

00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.780
Make sure that this doesn't get lost.

00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:23.220
Thank you so much for that.

00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:26.100
And presentations in class.

00:23:28.780 --> 00:23:30.320
I use sometimes org-present,

00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:32.860
but there are issues with the font sometimes.

00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:36.960
I use Treeslide most of the time and Org

00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:44.740
[Speaker 2]: tool.

00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:46.780
[Speaker 1]: Reveal. But this 1 is my top Of course,

00:23:46.780 --> 00:23:49.140
this is not org, so forget about that.

00:24:02.660 --> 00:24:08.220
Okay. Yeah, so you can send me your,

00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.160
you've got my email, I think,

00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.060
on the end, if you're interested in following

00:24:14.060 --> 00:24:16.360
up or letting me know about your stuff.

00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:18.220
It might be interesting to,

00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:20.040
I don't know, might be interesting to put

00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:22.040
together a conference or a little seminar

00:24:22.040 --> 00:24:22.980
just for educators.

00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:39.025
DF is still typing, I'm waiting.

00:24:39.025 --> 00:24:39.780
I'm waiting.

00:24:44.840 --> 00:24:46.400
[Speaker 2]: Actually, our mod maintainer,

00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:52.340
Bastien, was talking about possibility to

00:24:52.340 --> 00:24:54.120
have just org mod conference.

00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:59.180
But the question is, is it worth making a

00:24:54.780 --> 00:25:02.940
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. A whole separate 1 what?

00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:05.020
[Speaker 2]: whole separate 1? A whole separate org

00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:09.600
[Speaker 1]: Oh, I see. Yeah, probably would be.

00:25:10.840 --> 00:25:11.340
Actually.

00:25:05.020 --> 00:25:13.940
[Speaker 2]: dedicated conference. It's just like you see

00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:15.980
how EmacsConf is well done.

00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:19.340
So it's like creating anything that has good

00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:25.540
[Speaker 1]: Yes. No, I think that's a good idea.

00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:26.620
Yeah, I mean.

00:25:19.340 --> 00:25:30.480
[Speaker 2]: is tricky. I mean, Okay,

00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.920
it's anywhere, like half of Emacs is anywhere

00:25:32.920 --> 00:25:36.880
remote. So it's almost the same.

00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.200
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Well, I suppose at this point,

00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:41.520
I don't know if that's what you mean.

00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:45.020
Org Mode is probably what attracts people to

00:25:45.020 --> 00:25:47.040
Emacs in the first place.

00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:51.040
Like, I suppose Org Roam is the,

00:25:51.260 --> 00:25:54.600
maybe the biggest 1 for people even outside

00:25:54.600 --> 00:25:58.080
of computer science. I use Org.ROM

00:25:58.280 --> 00:26:02.760
for everything. But there are...

00:26:04.760 --> 00:26:05.840
I mean, the thresholds...

00:26:06.220 --> 00:26:07.900
I think that the maintainer or maybe the

00:26:07.900 --> 00:26:10.520
creator of Org.MODE has claimed and said for

00:26:10.520 --> 00:26:13.140
many years that Org Mode itself doesn't

00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:14.680
actually necessarily need Emacs.

00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:17.360
You can have it as a completely separate

00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:19.740
application as well. But I,

00:26:19.760 --> 00:26:21.040
for a number of reasons,

00:26:21.040 --> 00:26:23.440
I don't like that. I really like the idea to

00:26:28.434 --> 00:26:30.620
[Speaker 2]: why- The current strategy is that It has to

00:26:30.620 --> 00:26:33.580
be Emacs because the configurability is 1 of

00:26:33.580 --> 00:26:35.140
the strong points anyway.

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:35.820
[Speaker 1]: have it inside Emacs. The reason That's true.

00:26:35.820 --> 00:26:37.620
[Speaker 2]: You cannot make a separate application.

00:26:37.840 --> 00:26:38.080
No,

00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:39.800
[Speaker 1]: that's true. I was going to say that.

00:26:39.800 --> 00:26:41.500
The thing is you use the flexibility.

00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.220
Plus, you also use the,

00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.080
I don't know if that's the right word,

00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:48.760
but you use there's something about the free

00:26:48.760 --> 00:26:52.600
ideology of Emacs that is what attracted me

00:26:52.600 --> 00:26:56.260
to it in the first place when I was younger

00:26:56.460 --> 00:27:00.290
and that I find even more important now.

00:27:00.765 --> 00:27:03.520
So what they say the community aspect,

00:27:06.220 --> 00:27:08.800
the reason, the main reason why Python is so

00:27:08.800 --> 00:27:13.100
big today, really. So yeah.

00:27:15.060 --> 00:27:17.860
[Speaker 2]: But in terms of going out of Emacs,

00:27:17.860 --> 00:27:21.300
it's org syntax that is supposed to be like

00:27:21.820 --> 00:27:23.260
breaking out of Emacs.

00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.860
So like there's a plan to lay out the actual

00:27:28.860 --> 00:27:31.420
standard document so that you can register

00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:32.540
the format officially.

00:27:23.860 --> 00:27:34.760
[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Yeah, I think I've heard that too.

00:27:34.760 --> 00:27:36.560
I've not followed up on it much.

00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.320
I don't know what the,

00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:41.260
I mean, that probably would,

00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.040
it would strength, very likely,

00:27:43.040 --> 00:27:45.100
if you do that, it would at least for a short

00:27:45.100 --> 00:27:47.660
time, strengthen org mode and weaken emacs.

00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:50.880
I don't know what other examples,

00:27:51.580 --> 00:27:54.660
if there are other examples of applications

00:27:55.120 --> 00:27:57.840
pulled out of IDEs like that.

00:27:57.840 --> 00:27:59.480
I'm not aware of any others.

00:28:00.300 --> 00:28:02.680
[Speaker 2]: Actually, people are trying to make

00:28:02.680 --> 00:28:04.920
three-seater drama. People are trying to make

00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:06.240
like some external parsers,

00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:10.320
a lot of them. And a lot of stuff is done on

00:28:10.320 --> 00:28:12.940
mobile part. I can draw it to iOS,

00:28:13.440 --> 00:28:17.780
especially recently. So things that are Emacs

00:28:17.780 --> 00:28:19.780
independent are demanded.

00:28:20.660 --> 00:28:23.040
[Speaker 1]: Okay, yeah. I have no doubt that there is a

00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:26.620
[Speaker 2]: Especially in the environment,

00:28:27.040 --> 00:28:28.040
like every time.

00:28:23.040 --> 00:28:30.680
[Speaker 1]: demand. Yeah. I mean, I didn't get into that

00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:35.020
very much. I have some of my students have 0

00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:36.900
affinity with computers.

00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:39.900
They really don't know their way around their

00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:44.320
computers at all. And so for them,

00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:51.440
It is quite important to learn how to find

00:28:51.440 --> 00:28:56.520
your way around Emacs because it's like a

00:28:56.520 --> 00:28:57.820
little operating system,

00:28:57.920 --> 00:29:00.300
but it's not. It's an operating system

00:29:00.300 --> 00:29:03.960
without much of the obscurity.

00:29:05.080 --> 00:29:07.960
And the alternative to that would be to

00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:10.520
simply let them work only on the command

00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:12.480
line, which is another possibility.

00:29:13.480 --> 00:29:16.160
But, you know, there of course you are

00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:20.540
limited with regard to if you want to swap

00:29:20.540 --> 00:29:23.500
languages. So for example,

00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:26.000
quite often I find myself in the situation I

00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:28.780
teach data science in R and Python and in

00:29:28.780 --> 00:29:31.520
Emacs org mode I can demonstrate both of

00:29:31.520 --> 00:29:35.100
these side by side in the same file.

00:29:35.280 --> 00:29:38.700
And that's a great advantage.

00:29:39.800 --> 00:29:42.540
Not to overburden the students when they are

00:29:43.060 --> 00:29:45.100
at the beginning with things that you don't

00:29:45.100 --> 00:29:47.620
want them to necessarily learn about.

00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:51.000
And plus the thing what I like as a graduate

00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:54.440
student when I stepped onto Emacs was that it

00:29:54.440 --> 00:30:00.140
was infinite possibilities to lose myself in

00:30:00.140 --> 00:30:03.060
Emacs and you know go on and learn more stuff

00:30:03.060 --> 00:30:06.680
about it. But it's such a long time ago that

00:30:07.300 --> 00:30:10.360
I barely dare to mention it anymore.

00:30:11.600 --> 00:30:12.880
[Speaker 2]: For command line, actually,

00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:17.080
it's since the Jupyter notebooks and that

00:30:17.080 --> 00:30:19.400
Google thing they are running.

00:30:20.820 --> 00:30:23.820
It's getting so popular that it's clear that

00:30:23.820 --> 00:30:26.760
command line is just losing in popularity in

00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:31.920
[Speaker 1]: well, yes and no. I mean,

00:30:26.760 --> 00:30:33.360
[Speaker 2]: this. Yeah, of course,

00:30:36.100 --> 00:30:38.400
Not the usage. People are still using it,

00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:38.900
obviously.

00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:41.020
[Speaker 1]: I mean, in Google Colab,

00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:43.620
only the paid version allows you to go to the

00:30:43.620 --> 00:30:45.460
terminal and use the command line.

00:30:46.620 --> 00:30:48.580
But of course, the traction,

00:30:48.580 --> 00:30:50.140
and I think that's kind of interesting,

00:30:50.660 --> 00:30:54.680
1 of the reasons why IPython or any of the

00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.960
Jupyter notebooks are so cool is because you

00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.940
can use a lot of shell commands from the

00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.080
IPython shell. There's a whole bunch of magic

00:31:05.080 --> 00:31:07.000
commands which are quite powerful.

00:31:07.040 --> 00:31:10.020
I mean the the 1 that comes to mind is time.

00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:12.940
The time command for example you know gives

00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:15.720
you a really nice performance quick

00:31:15.720 --> 00:31:17.660
performance check. There's a bunch of

00:31:17.660 --> 00:31:19.780
different, I think probably close to a

00:31:19.780 --> 00:31:22.340
hundred magic commands that you can use in

00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:25.600
Jupyter. But I don't know JupyterLab too

00:31:25.600 --> 00:31:28.840
well, but I noticed that the companies that

00:31:28.840 --> 00:31:31.080
do online training, And they are usually the

00:31:31.080 --> 00:31:34.920
ones that are closest to what beginners want,

00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:36.100
especially in business.

00:31:36.280 --> 00:31:38.220
And what those companies do is they,

00:31:38.560 --> 00:31:41.720
you know, they take, they take JupyterLab and

00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:43.740
turn it into a presentation of their own.

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:45.320
Another 1 is Notable, notable.io.

00:31:46.840 --> 00:31:49.900
That's another 1. They took JupyterLab and

00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:51.320
turned it into something commercial.

00:31:51.340 --> 00:31:52.920
It's boosted up a little bit.

00:31:55.840 --> 00:32:00.480
And so the shell inside the JupyterLab has

00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.120
some of the most more important shell

00:32:03.120 --> 00:32:05.440
properties. And so people still use the

00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:07.080
command line without knowing that they use

00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:13.100
the command line. But I also like doing,

00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:15.300
how do I use org-roam?

00:32:19.360 --> 00:32:22.020
Well, I use it, I do not have not used it

00:32:22.020 --> 00:32:23.000
with the students yet,

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.020
only the best students have sort of seen me

00:32:25.020 --> 00:32:29.780
use it and copied it. But I use it probably

00:32:29.780 --> 00:32:32.000
in a very naive, trivial way.

00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:33.620
I can't say that I am,

00:32:34.300 --> 00:32:36.960
that I have a very sophisticated use.

00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:39.640
I basically, I like the fact that,

00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:43.100
I mean, it's built on the original concept of

00:32:43.100 --> 00:32:44.540
the, with the German word,

00:32:44.540 --> 00:32:48.280
Zettelkasten, right? Which is that you do not

00:32:48.280 --> 00:32:50.940
have to think about a taxonomy because as you

00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:53.800
move along, your taxonomy changes all the

00:32:53.800 --> 00:32:55.580
time. You know, what you think is important

00:32:55.580 --> 00:32:57.320
at the beginning, your root node,

00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:58.940
as you go along, you realize,

00:32:58.940 --> 00:33:00.680
oh, that's not the root node at all.

00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.640
There's a higher level and a higher level.

00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:04.740
And some of the lower levels are at the lower

00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:06.300
level, actually the higher level.

00:33:06.320 --> 00:33:10.460
So you're beginning to create hierarchies

00:33:10.760 --> 00:33:14.340
that are out of date as soon as you create

00:33:14.340 --> 00:33:16.360
the hierarchy. So what is the idea of the

00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:18.480
tittle custom is that anything that comes to

00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:21.100
your mind you can throw in the custom the box

00:33:21.160 --> 00:33:26.580
it literally means Box of notes and That's

00:33:26.580 --> 00:33:27.740
what I appreciate about it.

00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:32.920
So I create a I create a note pretty much for

00:33:32.920 --> 00:33:35.780
anything I do, but I've only used it for

00:33:35.860 --> 00:33:38.160
about a year and a half or so,

00:33:38.220 --> 00:33:39.740
or grown, maybe a year.

00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:43.700
So I can see that I'm coming up against the

00:33:43.700 --> 00:33:46.980
Zettelkasten or note box problems,

00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:50.860
which is that I've got so many notes now that

00:33:50.860 --> 00:33:52.960
unless I have clever aliases,

00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:56.680
there is a chance that I might forget that I

00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:00.400
[Speaker 2]: That's why you need meta notes.

00:33:56.680 --> 00:34:01.600
[Speaker 1]: have a note. So I need a- Yes,

00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:04.920
[Speaker 2]: In other words, a summarization is important,

00:34:04.940 --> 00:34:06.800
no matter what system you use.

00:34:01.740 --> 00:34:09.739
[Speaker 1]: yes. But what I'm trying to say is that's a

00:34:09.739 --> 00:34:11.260
different approach than hierarchies,

00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:13.620
right? It's the same, it's the same,

00:34:13.620 --> 00:34:15.960
it's the same principle as a relational

00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:18.719
database versus a hierarchical database.

00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:23.360
Same thing. So, yeah, and I've not used that.

00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.400
I've not really used, actually I have cut

00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:27.020
meta notes, of course I do.

00:34:27.100 --> 00:34:29.000
So notes that point to other notes.

00:34:29.487 --> 00:34:34.924
Yes, of course. I use those.

00:34:35.412 --> 00:34:38.800
I have not taught that part to the students

00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:42.860
because I do project work with the students,

00:34:45.040 --> 00:34:46.320
but there's only so much time.

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.219
I'm already, I mean, already,

00:34:48.340 --> 00:34:51.000
I don't think there's any class that where I

00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:55.860
am able to use more than 30% of my material.

00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:57.620
And the reason is that when the students come

00:34:57.620 --> 00:34:59.220
to class, which is I pointed out in the

00:34:59.220 --> 00:35:01.100
video, they know so little.

00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:03.720
And most of the students,

00:35:03.720 --> 00:35:04.960
at least in liberal arts,

00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:10.280
spend just too little time outside of class,

00:35:10.760 --> 00:35:11.600
getting there, you know,

00:35:11.600 --> 00:35:13.040
drilling down into the,

00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:14.640
into the, into the infrastructure,

00:35:14.860 --> 00:35:17.060
into the work. Only, only the best students

00:35:17.060 --> 00:35:19.320
do that. The ones that really catch fire.

00:35:20.080 --> 00:35:22.280
[Speaker 2]: Don't you have something like a course

00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:23.760
project at the end?

00:35:24.140 --> 00:35:25.760
[Speaker 1]: Yes, I have course, not at the end.

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:27.720
I use Scrum. Maybe I shouldn't,

00:35:27.720 --> 00:35:29.640
but I've used Scrum for many years.

00:35:30.040 --> 00:35:32.600
So I have course projects that start at the

00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:35.280
beginning and they do sprint reviews every 3

00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:40.640
or 4 weeks. So term end projects I find

00:35:40.640 --> 00:35:43.080
completely useless because the students do

00:35:43.080 --> 00:35:45.060
the work at the very end of the term.

00:35:46.220 --> 00:35:49.600
[Speaker 2]: no, by determined I mean they don't start at

00:35:49.600 --> 00:35:51.880
the end, they just report at the end.

00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:52.960
[Speaker 1]: And so I... Oh I use the IMRAD,

00:35:52.960 --> 00:35:54.300
I use the IMRAD method.

00:35:54.340 --> 00:35:58.160
So I use IMRAD, basically IMRAD plus,

00:35:58.700 --> 00:36:00.300
plus Scrum, right? So,

00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:02.220
So the first sprint review is introductory,

00:36:02.500 --> 00:36:03.480
the research proposal,

00:36:03.540 --> 00:36:05.040
the second 1 is about methodology,

00:36:05.060 --> 00:36:06.360
the third 1 about results,

00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.040
and the last 1 is their final presentation.

00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.100
And so that's the way I manage the projects,

00:36:11.160 --> 00:36:16.040
but that's about as much as I can do with

00:36:16.040 --> 00:36:17.640
them. It's a good idea.

00:36:17.640 --> 00:36:19.780
I hadn't even thought about using Org-ROM

00:36:19.900 --> 00:36:22.760
with them, but to teach them that might be a

00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:24.180
good idea, actually.

00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:27.220
[Speaker 2]: Well, for Org-ROM, actually,

00:36:27.400 --> 00:36:32.360
what I found useful during my graduate is for

00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:34.740
literature review. Yes.

00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.360
The other part of our program that is not

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:40.580
about your like noting down your thoughts is

00:36:40.580 --> 00:36:42.900
about writing about literature notes.

00:36:43.780 --> 00:36:45.480
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that's a good idea actually.

00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:46.320
And of course, I mean,

00:36:46.320 --> 00:36:48.180
there's more stuff that they should learn,

00:36:48.180 --> 00:36:50.140
you know, like another 1,

00:36:50.140 --> 00:36:51.780
since you mentioned literature,

00:36:52.420 --> 00:36:54.640
you know, latex and Bibtech is another

00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:57.840
obvious extension of that.

00:36:58.780 --> 00:37:01.120
But that is actually a good idea because the

00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:03.080
literature is what they have the hardest time

00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:06.980
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, like when you need to read like 50

00:37:06.980 --> 00:37:07.480
papers.

00:37:03.080 --> 00:37:12.480
[Speaker 1]: with. Last term, since you mentioned that,

00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:16.220
I had a really nice experience because 1 of

00:37:16.220 --> 00:37:18.300
our librarians, our digital librarian,

00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:19.920
came along and talked to the students,

00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:21.580
and he taught me about a tool called

00:37:21.580 --> 00:37:23.540
litmap.com, which is basically,

00:37:24.140 --> 00:37:25.420
I don't know how it's implemented,

00:37:25.460 --> 00:37:27.180
but it's basically a graph,

00:37:28.140 --> 00:37:31.620
a graph representation of papers organized by

00:37:31.620 --> 00:37:35.580
citation. It's very, very cool.

00:37:35.900 --> 00:37:38.480
And the students who used to only find,

00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:41.080
I don't know, 1 paper and otherwise,

00:37:41.180 --> 00:37:44.880
of course, 15 YouTube videos and 100 blogs,

00:37:45.380 --> 00:37:49.360
suddenly started finding and reading

00:37:49.540 --> 00:37:52.120
scientific papers. It was only because of

00:37:52.120 --> 00:37:54.900
this presentation. So you should take the,

00:37:55.640 --> 00:37:57.580
I think, I hope that is the right,

00:37:58.320 --> 00:37:59.560
that's the right mode,

00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:02.380
litmaps. Okay, it's not litmap,

00:38:02.380 --> 00:38:05.640
it's called Litmaps. I'm gonna give you an

00:38:05.640 --> 00:38:09.000
example. I don't know if I can share this,

00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:10.240
if you can look at that.

00:38:10.240 --> 00:38:13.640
But basically you create a,

00:38:13.860 --> 00:38:16.580
1 can use 1 of your papers as a seed,

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:18.840
and then it will create a graph,

00:38:19.660 --> 00:38:21.760
graph representation of it for you.

00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:25.220
And this is a powerful tool in itself.

00:38:25.400 --> 00:38:27.600
But what I'm saying is that the students

00:38:27.620 --> 00:38:30.900
suddenly, their use of literature and that

00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:32.560
citation goes to the roof.

00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:35.680
And I've been waiting for that for probably

00:38:36.140 --> 00:38:38.300
15 years since I've started teaching.

00:38:38.760 --> 00:38:43.420
It's crazy. That's really cool.

00:38:46.500 --> 00:38:47.720
[Speaker 2]: Here is the same tool,

00:38:47.720 --> 00:38:49.400
it's called connected papers.

00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.540
It's based on the open source citation data.

00:38:54.140 --> 00:38:56.340
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I know that as well,

00:38:56.500 --> 00:38:57.180
I think.

00:39:00.060 --> 00:39:01.560
[Speaker 2]: It's actually very useful when you just start

00:39:01.560 --> 00:39:03.960
learning the topic. It's like you find 1

00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.800
paper, then you look into the connections.

00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:08.260
You can quickly narrow down to the most

00:39:08.260 --> 00:39:09.500
cited, the core papers.

00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:12.500
[Speaker 1]: Of course. And that is exactly their

00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.800
situation, you know, and they're always at

00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:16.740
the beginning. As you go on,

00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:18.680
you develop different ways,

00:39:18.680 --> 00:39:20.140
but for these complete beginners,

00:39:20.200 --> 00:39:22.680
that's a good idea. Thank you so much for

00:39:22.680 --> 00:39:30.520
that. Okay, guys, anything else?

00:39:31.240 --> 00:39:32.440
I've enjoyed the conversation,

00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:33.960
so you should definitely,

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.940
I'm going to take some of these things away.

00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:42.340
Thank you so much for that.

00:39:42.340 --> 00:39:45.740
Have you done, Yanta, have you done org mode

00:39:46.300 --> 00:39:48.200
documentations yourself on WOC?

00:39:48.900 --> 00:39:52.120
Or do you have a sort of a favorite 1?

00:39:52.120 --> 00:39:53.600
I mean, I often on walk,

00:39:53.600 --> 00:39:56.740
I often use the documentation for code

00:39:56.740 --> 00:39:59.620
blocks. I used to when I started doing that

00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:02.800
[Speaker 2]: Yeah, because it's only on work.

00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:04.260
It's not part of the manual.

00:39:59.620 --> 00:40:05.280
[Speaker 1]: for the first time. Yeah,

00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.440
yeah. And so I've used that a lot.

00:40:07.780 --> 00:40:09.560
[Speaker 2]: Have I done? Not really,

00:40:09.720 --> 00:40:11.460
mostly fixing the errors.

00:40:12.260 --> 00:40:12.760
Okay.

00:40:14.280 --> 00:40:16.100
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think that's a really good idea.

00:40:16.440 --> 00:40:19.780
All right. Well, thank you very much.

00:40:19.960 --> 00:40:22.360
And it's great to be at this conference.

00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:24.440
I think I'm going to get on.

00:40:27.660 --> 00:40:29.240
[Speaker 2]: Thanks for answering all the questions.

00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:32.560
And for the talk, It was quite interesting to

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see our modules in actual teaching.

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[Speaker 1]: Yes, thank you. And I got to thank Daniel

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German from Canada, the 1 of,

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I had him on 1 of the slides because he,

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he inspired me to do that.

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And, and I wouldn't be at the conference if I

00:40:47.540 --> 00:40:49.480
hadn't contacted him and said oh here's my

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paper and he said oh you should come to the

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conference and so that's why I came to the

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conference. Thank you very much and as they

00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:04.100
say keep in touch. You're welcome.

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Okay bye-bye. You're welcome.

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Okay, bye-bye. Take a copy of the chat before

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you go, if you can. Happy weekend to just bye

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bye.

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[Speaker 0]: You are currently the only person in this

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conference.

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[Speaker 1]: You