WEBVTT
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[Speaker 0]: And I think we are live.
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Hello again, everyone.
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And hi, Lovro. How are you doing?
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[Speaker 1]: Just a second. Should I join the other room?
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[Speaker 0]: Oh, no, no, you can stay here.
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[Speaker 1]: I can stay in the backstage.
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[Speaker 0]: Everything is fine. I don't think you are
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technically in the backstage right now you're
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just in Big Blue Button with us.
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[Speaker 1]: Oh thanks. Oh because I have 2 of them open I
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thought there were 2 different rooms.
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1 is the backstage and the other,
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[Speaker 0]: whichever, I can hear you and so can the
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stream, so don't worry too much about which
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is the backstage and which is the front page.
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[Speaker 1]: I have no idea. Well, great,
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great. Okay, yeah. Yeah,
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I'm doing great, just to answer your
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question.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, great, great, Okay,
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well splendid. So, I've pasted a link again
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on IRC if you want to ask your questions,
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and I'd invite you to do so,
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because we have about 9 minutes of laborious
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time to answer as many of them as possible.
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And I'm going to start with the first 1.
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This looks great and was very well-presented.
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Do you have plans to upstream this
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functionality into Emacs?
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[Speaker 1]: That's a good idea. That's something we
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thought about as well.
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Currently, we haven't really contacted anyone
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to do this. Also, the current implementation,
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so as I mentioned in the presentation towards
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the end, so we use a little bit of advice to
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sort of patch some functionality of query
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replace because not everything was easy to
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implement. The core functionality luckily
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was, But there's a couple of fixes we need to
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apply to the message function in order to
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display a nice message in the echo buffer
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because this doesn't happen on its own when
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we're using this trick with this big regex
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and whatnot. So I don't think that the code
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as it is would be upstreamable.
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I think probably if we wanted to upstream it,
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we would have to do some proper work on
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refactoring query place itself in order to
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integrate all of this functionality just
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directly without any patching left and right.
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But yeah, definitely something I've given
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some thought, but so far no progress on it.
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I haven't actually started doing anything
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about it.
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[Speaker 0]: Right, So I'm curious now,
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you developed the feature and then you moved
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on to the presentation or did you want to do
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a presentation for EmacsConf and then you
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worked on something like this?
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Which was it first, the chicken or the egg?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, it was the former.
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So this is a problem I've been aware of for,
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I mean, probably a couple of years.
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And, you know, I talked to my friend
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Valentino about it and we had like a little
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discussion, you know, how would we do this?
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And then I remember back when I was
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researching about this problem and the
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various Emacs Lisp solutions,
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all I could find were these solutions that
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would, you know, just shy away from
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implementing the RegEx case,
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which is a really complicated 1.
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And, after some discussion,
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my friend and I decided,
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okay, what the hell? Let's,
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let's try and implement this.
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How hard can it be? And yeah,
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basically in 1 afternoon,
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the idea, our little trick and the whole
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implementation was born.
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And then I think that was maybe around a year
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ago, maybe a bit less.
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And then through the months,
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we just thought, oh yeah,
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maybe we could present this,
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maybe it would be interesting for people to
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see and that's how we came up with the idea
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to present at EmacsConf.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. I don't see other people asking
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questions. So people, it's nice if I ask
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questions but you know,
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the point is kind of for you to ask the
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questions. I see someone who's joined us on
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BBB. Peter, would you like to ask a question
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maybe? Otherwise I see another person writing
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a question on the pad,
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so we can either move for this 1.
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So I'll leave Peter to figure out if they
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want to ask a question.
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So I'm moving on to the next question.
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[Speaker 2]: I can jump in. That's a really well done talk
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and you really clearly laid out the problem
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and the solution there.
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While I was watching it,
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I was thinking maybe the nice way to name it
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is just to name it query replace and query
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replace regext, you know,
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overloading the original functions and then
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using a prefix number,
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like control number to indicate how many
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replacements you're going to do.
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But maybe that doesn't work with the
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recursive editing stuff,
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which I don't use much.
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So I don't have a good method.
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[Speaker 1]: I think it would definitely work.
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Well, the question is,
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if we just overwrite the definitions,
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then, oh, well, I guess we could do that.
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Nothing stops us. I mean,
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we're in Emacs. We could definitely do that.
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And then if you give, like,
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a prefix argument, maybe it just drops you
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back to the original query replace.
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Yeah, that's an idea. For now,
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we decided, OK, let's just keep everything
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explicitly separate just to avoid any
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confusion.
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[Speaker 2]: Yeah, I think that's the right thing to do
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for now. What I'm actually thinking is that
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when you do query replace,
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it just does the regular query replace.
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And if you're going to do,
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say, 3 parallel replacements,
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then you do Control-U,
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query replace. Sorry. Control-3,
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query replace. And then that way you don't
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have The final prompt that you give nothing
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to.
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[Speaker 1]: Exactly, that's actually not a bad idea.
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I think I like that. Yeah,
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that's not a bad idea.
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[Speaker 0]: It's always a quagmire whether to ask for an
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argument or to use the universal argument.
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When you're working with Emacs and especially
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the UX side of things in the package,
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it's so complicated to figure out which 1 you
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want to do. In this particular case,
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I think it's the better option to use the
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universal argument or any kind of argument
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with a control number before.
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All right, we have about 3 more minutes of
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questions. Peter, if you don't mind,
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I'll keep reading the questions in the chat.
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Did you use pair programming while developing
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it, it being a package,
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or did you work independently,
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alternating and reviewing with Valentino?
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[Speaker 1]: It was definitely a pair programming kind of
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thing. So if I remember correctly,
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I was sitting at the computer and Valentino
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was in front of a whiteboard and we were just
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dissecting this regex and a bunch of examples
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and trying to get these capture groups and
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stuff that we have to remap internally to get
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these offsets right and avoid off by 1 error
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and stuff like that. So yeah,
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definitely a team effort.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Moving on to the next question.
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What is your background in programming?
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Was it difficult to implement following the
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same API and architecture as what is already
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in Emacs?
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[Speaker 1]: So maybe just a quick back story.
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Both Valentino and I are actually PhD
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students in computer science,
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and we literally share an office.
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So that's how we even started talking about
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this whole thing. And we both use Emacs,
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of course. But I don't think this was too
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hard to implement because luckily all of the
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interactive functionality like this
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complicated undo, skipping,
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execute until the end and so on,
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all of this is really just already provided
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by the Emacs queer replace implementation.
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So sort of what we do is we just invoke it as
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a function and delegate to it.
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And we came up with this clever trick to
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basically delegate this multi-replacement to
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this 1 single function that's already there.
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So it wasn't too complicated.
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[Speaker 0]: Alright. And we have about 2 minutes of time
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for the last question.
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What did you learn about Emacs programming or
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programming in general while working on this
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project? A very wide question for me.
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[Speaker 1]: Maybe 1 thing I would like to add to the
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previous just answer is I don't want to say
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like you know we're PhDs,
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a PhD is required for this or anything,
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not at all. It's mostly just for a little bit
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of context, but I think obviously,
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even if you're not a PhD,
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I mean, you don't even require like
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university, you know, education or anything.
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It wasn't overly difficult to implement,
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sort of just read some code that's already
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there and you know follow what you see and
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poke Emacs a little bit and do a little bit
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of debugging on the internals and you can
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definitely get it. So definitely not a
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prerequisite to have a degree or anything to
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do any of this stuff. Okay so Coming back to
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[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I'm going to amend a little bit the
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question because we only have 1 minute.
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So just 1 thing in 10 seconds,
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[Speaker 2]: what did you
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[Speaker 0]: learn about this?
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[Speaker 1]: your last question. What did I learn about
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Emacs programming? That Emacs is so flexible
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that I can go and I can patch literally its
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message function. And that is how we achieve
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the nice message function in the echo buffer.
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So I can literally go and patch something as
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crucial as message.
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[Speaker 0]: It's great. That's a lovely 1.
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And I think, again, we're going back to the
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philosophy of Emacs. Everything is
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programmable and even changing the message
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function is great. All right,
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well, thank you so much,
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Lovro, and thanks to Valentino as well,
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who's not here, but who's contributed to this
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talk. Any last word?
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[Speaker 1]: Well, just if you're gonna build any
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solutions, try to make them as foolproof and
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as 100% as possible so we get more of these
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goodies that are nice and robust for
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everybody to use.
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[Speaker 0]: All right, lovely. Well,
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thank you so much, Lover,
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for your presentation and your answer.
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We'll be moving on to the next talk in just
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about 5 seconds, and I'll see you after.
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Bye, Lovro!
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[Speaker 1]: Yep, bye bye!
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[Speaker 0]: So I'm just waiting to make sure my VNC is a
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little slow. Okay, we switch to the next
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talk. All right, Lover,
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I'm gonna need to go get ready now.
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Yep. Bye-bye, and thanks for your talk.
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[Speaker 1]: Bye, thank you, see you.
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[Speaker 2]: You
