WEBVTT
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[Speaker 0]: I would invite all on the,
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who are currently watching,
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who have questions, put them into the pad
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that I can ask them. I'm kind of monitoring
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the IRC concurrently. So the first question
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that we have on the pad is concerning why you
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have switched from OCaml.
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Maybe the person has missed it in the talk,
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if you've mentioned it.
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Why have you switched from OCaml to,
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in this case, I guess,
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Rust?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I mentioned like with writing a
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language server that I wrote mine for my
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company in OCaml But I wouldn't recommend it
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just in general unless like you're doing
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something specific with OCaml And the reason
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for that and I recommended Rust or like
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TypeScript is like OCaml is great.
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It's very performant but it's cross
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compilation story is not great.
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It's like really hard to cross compile like
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from 1 platform to another.
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And then like the ecosystem and its standard
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library is also not great.
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And like Rust, its cross compilation is
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great. Its ecosystem is great.
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OCaml is great if you need to use it,
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but it's just it's not ideal.
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And there's just also no good examples of a
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language server in OCaml.
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There's the official like OCaml language
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server, But they use a ton of super advanced
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language features, like module functors and a
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bunch of other random stuff.
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So it's not really readable.
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But Rust, there's Rust analyzer,
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which is readable. In TypeScript,
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there's like a million different ones.
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So it's less of a, not OCaml is like,
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it's not that OCaml isn't great.
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It's more of a, these other languages would
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probably just be easier.
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So.
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[Speaker 0]: I guess since the integration to,
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for example, like NeoVim or some other
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editors are just revenue fine because of the
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[Speaker 1]: Sorry, can you say that again?
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[Speaker 0]: LSP, I guess. The LSP,
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so it's a standard LSP specification that
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you're using. So you can also,
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for instance, use it and other editors,
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like for instance, new them or so.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah. Yeah. You can use it.
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It's most, most editors nowadays support it.
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Like obviously Emacs, NeoVim,
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Sublime, VS code, Intel,
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all the IntelliJ ones.
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So yeah, that's, that's the fun part.
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You don't have to write 10 different
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languages to get a bunch of editor support.
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[Speaker 0]: Also experience writing it.
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So I didn't have really time to hear into
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your talk. So I'm sorry if I ask you
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questions that you have already said.
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How was the experience of writing an LSP?
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So have you any knowledge beforehand or do
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you just read it all on yourself?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, there's not a ton of documentation,
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which is what motivated me to do this talk.
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Basically, I just looked at the
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specification, and I knew Rust Analyzer was
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cool. And so I looked at Rust Analyzer,
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and I looked at PyRite.
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And I just went from there.
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I found out about all this because I already
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using Emacs, I already knew about it.
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I was like, this is going to be easier than
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something else. So yeah,
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there's the experience is fine.
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It's just a lot of wiring stuff up.
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It's not a lot of like hard thinking until
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you get to like performance heavy stuff.
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Like, so for some graph,
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like we're doing a ton of like code parsing
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and like analyzing. And so that's,
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it takes up like a ton of processing power.
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So like for stuff like that,
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like now you have to think about caching and
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like ordering things. So that part's hard,
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but that's more of a, like very much
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application specific thing.
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[Speaker 0]: Right. Anything in the IRC chat.
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I think not. It's nothing I can see.
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No questions, that's kind of odd to be
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honest. I cannot really ask questions
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concerning LSP specific.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no worries.
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[Speaker 0]: Good question, what could be asked?
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Let's call, let's ask something very
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unspecific concerning the Emacs usage.
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And when have you started?
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How did you came through it and stuff like
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this?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah. I like and when I was in high school,
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me and my friends just were like,
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got obsessed with Linux for whatever reason.
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And then like we traveled down like the,
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like the free software,
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like we just thought that was like very
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entertaining and like interesting to read
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about all the free software stuff.
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They were like, yeah, that's cool.
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And so we all started using Linux.
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And I'm like, well, if I'm using free
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software, I'm going to use Emacs.
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And so I started using Emacs just to try it
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out. And then I kind of got,
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I feel like, Stockholm syndrome into it.
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And now I've realized like,
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I don't know, now that I've done the like
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actual work to get into Emacs,
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it's just, there's so much more I can do with
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it. But yeah, it was somewhat unintentional.
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[Speaker 0]: I probably have the same course I've started
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like 2 years ago using Emacs.
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And also just, oh, there's at first some cool
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people on YouTube, so systems crafters and
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people like this. And also,
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ah, VS Code, I used a lot of VS Code
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beforehand and then VS Codium because open
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source and then oh are there any other
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alternatives and I came to like Neovim and
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Emacs and often switching around but I stick
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to Emacs at some point to be honest.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I think Emacs also just looks really
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cool. I will say that.
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And also just like I like Vim.
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Vim is cool but like being able to like write
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lists and like modify your editor on the fly
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is just like very appealing to me.
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I don't know, Emacs was tough at first
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because like all the like default key
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bindings are just kind of like and then and
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then I read somewhere someone was like yeah
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well Richard Stallman uses evil mode so it's
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okay. I was like alright I can that's like
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blessing enough for me Like I'm just gonna
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switch to evil mode. And I was like,
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this is way, way better as far as key
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bindings go.
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[Speaker 0]: Kind of relates. So I switched for,
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I think, half a year to the default key
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bindings from Vim beforehand.
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I switched back to Evil and now I'm losing
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some kind of hybrid styles.
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It's kind of weird. But we have a question on
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the pad. So what are the corner cases,
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limitations, and other issues you encountered
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in implementing an LSP server with client in
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Emacs that were surprising?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, I would say the corner cases and
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limitations are definitely like,
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once again, they're going to be very
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application specific, but it's usually just
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the performance part. So like I was saying
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before, right, in general if you're doing
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language tooling, you're gonna be doing
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either parsing or interpreting or something
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like that, which is very just like
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computationally heavy and so if you're trying
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to like do that stuff while someone is
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editing a file right like every keystrokes
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every like 1 to 2 seconds if they have a fast
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computer that's great but a lot of people
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don't have like that fast of a computer that
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they can go and like do compilation every
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single keystroke. So like,
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I would say, I would say the like limitation
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is just how fast your computer is and how
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good you are at like implementing caching for
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like whatever you're doing.
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That's also just the main issues I've run
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into is just it's a constant uphill battle.
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People will somehow find larger and larger
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files. You'll end up with files that are like
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thousands, like tens of thousands of lines
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long and you think yeah,
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surely no 1 would expect like instantaneous
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response for like like editing a file that
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has like tens of thousands of lines,
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but then they do. As far as corner cases go,
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I would say the corner case is like,
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just in general is actually distributing the
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language server. Cause like writing the
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language server is fine.
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Like wiring everything up is fine.
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But then like, once you actually have to go
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and distribute it, well,
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now you're distributing in a binary.
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Like I was saying before with OCaml,
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doesn't have great cross compilation.
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So for some graph for our language server,
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we target Linux and Mac OS,
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and we have a ton of people who use Windows,
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but compiling OCaml for Windows is basically
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impossible. So our corner case there,
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the way we solved it was now we're
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transpiling OCaml to JavaScript,
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which is a huge can of worms.
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Like it's a lot of fun.
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It's very interesting,
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but like it's not ideal.
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And so that's what I was saying before.
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I recommend like Rust or TypeScript because
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those are way more portable and a lot easier
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to install. And you don't have to worry about
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any of that weird packaging stuff.
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So yeah, I would say that's like the main
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corner case and the main limitation is just
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speed and caching.
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[Speaker 0]: You mentioned this obscure large file so
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someone doesn't want to refactor or
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something. How did you start?
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So did you have any way to still be
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relatively performant when they have big
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files or is it just not supported?
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I don't care.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no, we, so we support larger files now
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And the way we ended up doing that,
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so SemGrep is like you write this generic
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pattern. You kind of write the language,
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but then there's these other symbols and
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stuff that are included in that,
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this like meta language.
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And so what happens is,
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is most languages get,
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they get parsed and then into a syntax tree,
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right? Like whatever the language is syntax
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tree is, and then they get,
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the syntax tree gets converted into this,
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like, we call it like an abstract syntax
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tree, which is like abstract from like any,
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like languages specific syntax tree.
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And so then we can cache that,
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which is really good because like if someone
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types something like we don't have to go
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through and do like the full parsing and like
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converting, we only have to do it
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incrementally. And so that's,
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that's how we dealt with that.
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Or the other option is that we just,
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we just cache whatever the previous results
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are, and then run it asynchronously,
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and they might get it delayed.
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But we've ended up doing more AST caching,
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which is fun and cool.
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[Speaker 0]: Sounds good. So we have here a question from
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Blaine. If Eaglet is a subset of LSP mode,
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can EGLOT conflict with LSP mode if both are
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present in your initial .el
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file?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so I haven't played around with EGLOT
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mode a ton, so I'm not 100% sure.
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I think all of the key bindings and commands,
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if you just install it out of the box,
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I Think they're different.
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So I don't think there's like any like
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overlap as far as that stuff goes but you
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will have the overlap of like you entered,
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like you started a major mode for like some
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language, like they'll both probably start
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the language server and provide diagnostics
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and everything. And so then now you're
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getting like, you're just like doubling the
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work your computer is doing.
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So there's that conflict.
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But if you prefer EGLOT mode or LSP mode for
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like 1 language or framework,
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like 1 major mode and LSP mode for the other,
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I think you should be fine.
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[Speaker 0]: All right. Just to let you know,
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we have like 1 minute on the stream and then
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we'll switch back and to the pre-recorded
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stuff I guess.
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[Speaker 2]: Yeah yeah yeah let's hi sorry for the rude
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interruption but I'm just doing a little bit
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of time keeping so thank you so much Austin
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sadly I wasn't able to follow the Q&A because
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I was in the other track answering questions.
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If, Austin, you want to stay and answer some
00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:42.080
more questions, feel free to do so.
00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:46.220
People tend to start talking as soon as we go
00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:48.740
off air, And I wouldn't be surprised with LSP
00:12:49.540 --> 00:12:50.040
that people would do the same.
00:12:52.800 --> 00:12:53.040
We're gonna move on for this track.
00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:55.040
We're gonna move on in 20 seconds to the next
00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:57.420
1. So Floey, thank you for hosting.
00:12:58.680 --> 00:12:59.180
Austin, thank you for all your answers.
00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:01.960
And We'll see you in a bit.
00:13:04.740 --> 00:13:05.140
[Speaker 1]: Cool. Thanks. See you.
00:13:06.700 --> 00:13:07.200
[Speaker 0]: Thanks for the Q&A.
00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:10.440
[Speaker 2]: All right. All right. You are now off air.
00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:11.720
Thank you so much, Austin.
00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:13.200
I'm going to go back running in the
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background. And thank you,
00:13:14.700 --> 00:13:15.200
Flowey, for everything.
00:13:20.900 --> 00:13:21.400
[Speaker 0]: And thanks. Yeah. Have a nice,
00:13:23.160 --> 00:13:23.660
probably a nice day at your work.
00:13:24.140 --> 00:13:24.240
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, no worries. Yeah.
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Yeah, it's still it's like lunchtime for me.
00:13:28.100 --> 00:13:28.600
[Speaker 0]: So okay, here, it's like,
00:13:34.380 --> 00:13:34.700
09:00. 9pm. Thanks for the talk.
00:13:36.300 --> 00:13:36.600
Sorry for the inconvenience was not having
00:13:37.540 --> 00:13:38.040
any, any questions, really.
00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:39.380
[Speaker 1]: So yeah. Oh yeah, no worries.
00:13:41.100 --> 00:13:41.280
It's like, there's like no documentation on
00:13:42.940 --> 00:13:43.380
any of this stuff. So I didn't really expect
00:13:43.380 --> 00:13:43.880
any.
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:47.560
[Speaker 0]: Yeah, I was kind of interested when I jumped
00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:51.140
into NeoVim. I write it 1 or 2 things on my
00:13:53.140 --> 00:13:53.320
own, but never really got really deep into
00:13:54.520 --> 00:13:54.960
it. And you're gonna see with like compiler
00:13:55.920 --> 00:13:56.140
design and stuff like this,
00:13:57.400 --> 00:13:57.900
but not really specific.
00:13:58.320 --> 00:13:58.820
So I was
00:14:00.860 --> 00:14:01.240
[Speaker 1]: kind of- Yeah, that's the hard part.
00:14:02.440 --> 00:14:02.880
It's like, it's, LSP is cool,
00:14:05.020 --> 00:14:05.200
but then you have to like deal with all the
00:14:06.760 --> 00:14:07.200
like compiler stuff and programming language
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:07.700
theory.
00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:10.800
[Speaker 0]: So yeah. So it's, it shouldn't be too
00:14:13.280 --> 00:14:13.660
complicated. I had not really a question,
00:14:14.700 --> 00:14:15.140
so, but it worked out fine.
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.000
Thanks for the Q and A.
00:14:18.560 --> 00:14:19.060
And if I have any questions to Oak Hamill,
00:14:20.640 --> 00:14:21.140
Elderspeak will get an email from you.
00:14:21.560 --> 00:14:22.060
[Speaker 1]: Oh yeah, definitely.
00:14:23.500 --> 00:14:24.000
[Speaker 0]: Dan?
