WEBVTT
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[Speaker 0]: And I think we are live.
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Hi, Yanny, how are you doing?
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[Speaker 1]: Excellent, excellent. Doing very well,
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thank you.
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[Speaker 0]: So that was a wonderful presentation.
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I first want to commend you on your ability
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to both do the how the user encounters the
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MMS, how the developer might be interested
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about how it works, and I feel like you've
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done a wonderful job of talking to absolutely
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everyone in our audience,
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whatever their skill level.
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So thank you so much for this.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, that of course runs the risk of being,
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you know, good for some,
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but excellent for none.
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But hopefully the result is that people can
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get something out of it.
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I think it's very important to make sure that
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everyone feels that they have access to
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Emacs, they have access to EMMS,
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that they can do this in whatever capacity
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they want. It's for everyone.
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I really believe that.
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[Speaker 0]: Yeah, and I understand this risk about having
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a talk that is kind of a jack-of-all-trades,
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but frankly you've done a wonderful job of
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making it interesting for everyone,
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because also I think the parts worked really
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well, and people always had something to look
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forward in terms of their expertise of what
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particularly spoke to them.
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So thank you again. What I'm going to do,
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we have about 14 minutes of Q&A,
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So I'll invite people,
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as I usually do, to add their questions in
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the other pad that you can find on the talks
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or on IRC. You can also join us in the
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discussion. I will make sure this time to
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ping Sasha to open the Q&A.
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Can you open, I-V-E-M-M-S.
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All right, and in the meantime,
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whilst we wait for people to join us in the
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room, I will start reading some of the
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questions off the pad.
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So we had the first question about the music
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that we played during the launch break,
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and It's 1 of our dear friends,
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Shoshin Ganshangroh, a free album,
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Basement Dazed. I've put the link in the pad
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and we've been using Shoshin's music for the
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last 3 years, I think,
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and everyone, people are so excited.
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Some people say, why is it so noisy in the
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background? But it's just because there's 1
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part of the different tracks that sounds like
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static and it always gets people.
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We should probably do something about this,
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but frankly it makes me laugh every time.
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Starting with the first actual question,
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well actually it's a bit of a meme question,
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for the next Emacs Con,
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could we have an eMMS playlist to follow the
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talks along?
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[Speaker 1]: Oh that sounds like an excellent idea but I
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guess I'm wondering what they mean exactly by
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that. Is that a shareable playlist that we
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can pass along and just have people go to a
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URL and just be able to play that?
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I think that's an excellent idea.
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It should be a relatively low bandwidth
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process.
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[Speaker 0]: And it's typically the type of stuff that is
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right of our alley. I'm thinking about the
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ICS file that we produce for all the events
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that are related to Emacs.
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You know the workshop that happened in Paris
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or in New York, LA? Sasha compiles a list of
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all the events and when they happen,
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and then we provide this to everyone.
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And we can do very much the same with
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EmacsConf. You could have a playlist for
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EmacsConf 2023, where you get all the talks
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and perhaps also the Q&A sessions so that you
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can relieve the 16 hours of content that
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we're producing. That'd be great,
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that's a great idea I think.
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[Speaker 1]: Absolutely, and if there are any limitations
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in the Emacs playlist structure that things
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are missing in the playlist structure,
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then it would be a great impetus to implement
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those and extend the playlist structure.
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Because after all, it's Lisp,
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it really is data and functions all mixed
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together, so we can do that.
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It would be very interesting to dive into it
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and see what's missing.
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That would be even more informative than what
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it can do.
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[Speaker 0]: Great. All right, moving on to the next
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question. I like to use music and audiobooks
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in very different ways.
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With music, I like shuffling by artists and
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with audiobooks, I want to read sequentially
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and pick the same playlist over a couple of
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days or weeks. Do you have any tips for using
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these 2 opposing media's workflow?
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[Speaker 1]: Yes, so I have similar situations where I
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have very long endurance races that I watch,
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which I do all my media consumption is done
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via EMMS. I also listened to music.
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And so there's also a middle in between.
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There's 1 end in which you have popular
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music. These are standalone songs that are
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typically 3 to 4 minute long and they are
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best consumed in a random you know order
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because they are designed around,
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you know, a commercial radio distribution.
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I guess I'm dating myself by saying radio,
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but you know all the that.
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In the middle there are longer works like
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musicals and classical where these are units
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where they might be very long but you would
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have several tracks that you do want to have
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1 after the other, and you want to be able to
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stop and go to the next track.
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And then at the very, very other end,
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you have extremely long format,
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which is included in a single file,
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such as an audio book,
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a movie, a tutorial that you're watching,
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or in my case, you know,
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a 24 hour, the 24 hours of Le Mans,
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just the 24 hour race,
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which, you know, that's 1 heck of a file.
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So that is 1 of the reasons eMMS has a number
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of elements such as the meta playlist mode
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and multiple playlists.
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So I would say that they would open a number
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of playlists in eMMS, generate a number of
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playlists that have each class of media.
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So the shorter form songs,
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the more pop songs you have in 1 playlist
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where you can sort, shuffle it,
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you know, save it, do whatever you want.
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Then a separate playlist for the long form
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stuff. Sometimes that playlist will have even
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only 1 file in it if it's long enough,
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then have a key combination which takes you
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directly to 1 playlist or the other,
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and within the long-form playlist,
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looking at the bookmarking function of EMMS,
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which is designed around being able to save a
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particular stopping point or multiple
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stopping points, bookmarks in the audio,
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and being able to jump back into that audio.
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The point to remember about the bookmarking
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feature is that sometimes it really depends
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on you have to have the right back end.
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Not all back ends with replaying,
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not all types of media work well with a
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bookmarking function, and bug reports
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welcome. But also there are other backends
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such as MPV where you can configure it that
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when you quit playing the song or the media
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with, you know, cue internally.
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So sometimes the back end has to continue
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playing that song. That's what I do in order
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to, on 1 hand, switch over to a...
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I want to hear... I'm coding,
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I want to hear some music,
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I go to my playlist of short songs,
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then I'm sitting back and I want to watch a
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long form something from where I left off and
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there I go to the other playlist and use
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bookmarks or the features of the back end
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that I'm using.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, thank you for the answer.
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We have about 7 minutes and we have more
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questions, so that's great.
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Moving on to the next 1.
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Is there a way to search a music selection by
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lyrics? Assuming those lyrics are in the
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metadata or are available elsewhere,
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it would be neat to call songs up from the
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lyrics to the song. Perhaps is this
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implemented so that you can all aliases,
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so they can use aliases for the song that you
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like, defining those aliases or shortcuts
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either inside or outside eMMS?
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Okay, so I think you've got 2 questions.
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First about the lyrics and then the aliases.
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so it's effectively not possible to do
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right now. There's a sense in which it is,
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but not really. What actually needs to
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happen? The problem is that the caching
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system is extremely naive.
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It's just really a hash that's written to
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disk. And maybe now with SQLite integration
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or other or just the fact that computers have
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a lot more speed and space than they used to
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have, we need to expand the cache to be a lot
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more greedy and a lot more flexible so that
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we can store things such as lyrics in as part
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of the metadata. There's no reason not to do
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that. Unless your collection would have to be
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truly enormous in order to slow things down.
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We wouldn't even need to compress the lyrics
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in order to store them like that.
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But that is a goal. So our rewrite of the
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cache is currently in progress,
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and the goal is to have a system where you
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can put any related information,
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including lyrics, and map that to a
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particular piece of the media,
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be it a URL or a... So you could have in a
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sense, you could have a URL to a lecture and
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the metadata associated would be some text,
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some notes or something else like that.
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[Speaker 0]: Right, so that was about the lyrics.
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I'm not sure how it answers the question
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about the aliases. I mean you can still
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filter what you've mentioned about the cache.
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I think it's... Do we consider the aliases to
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be anything within the metadata?
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[Speaker 1]: No, you're right. That is a separate
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question. I don't have a great answer for
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that right now.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, great. Well, we'll put a pin on this
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and we can return to it.
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You can return to it at a later stage.
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Yeah. All right, moving on to the next
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question, then. I'll just,
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we'll put a pin on this.
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All right, next question.
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Are there plans for managing metadata with
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online resource backends,
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i.e. Discogs or music brains?
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What about something like Beats and Emacs or
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part of the EMMS?
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[Speaker 1]: Yeah, so that's an active discussion on the
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mailing list right now.
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We don't want to replicate what Beats does
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very, very well in eMMS.
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We don't want a clunky interface with Beats.
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We do want some kind of,
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and so it's hard to tell exactly where to
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draw that line. So the big answer is yes,
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absolutely, there is a plan to do that.
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The details become complicated because for 1
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thing, the backend, the database that
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MusicBrain uses, AcoustID,
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I don't remember if AcoustID is the binary or
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the database, but that's actually for
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non-commercial use only.
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So not only do you need to compile a piece of
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software on your computer as a shim,
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which is what you need to do in order to set
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up beats to do fingerprinting.
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But it also crosses this line between
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completely free software to completely free
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software interfacing with a non-commercial
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only service. So a lot of the discussion
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that's going on now is what is the contour?
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Where would be where we would be effective
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for EMMS to do management and where not?
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For 1 thing, I would love to be able to...
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1 thing that we definitely would love to be
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able to do is when you hit E on a file and
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you get all the metadata to be able to then
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give a command to say,
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hey, play to music brains and see if you can
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improve that metadata.
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Do you have better metadata,
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more complete metadata to complete that?
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That is definitely in the pipeline.
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How best to do it, that's a discussion.
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[Speaker 0]: Okay, Yoni, we have about 2 minutes until we
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need to go to the next talk.
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Okay, I'll risk it. 1 more question and a
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short answer if you can.
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Have the developers considered using Emacs
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customized functionality to persistently
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store settings when using eMMS setup discover
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players?
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[Speaker 1]: Yes, absolutely. That's another active place,
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especially with the discover players.
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How to do it exactly without annoying people
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and clobbering their own settings,
00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:20.680
we just need to be very careful about that.
00:14:23.040 --> 00:14:23.540
Yes, that's in the coming releases.
00:14:26.520 --> 00:14:26.940
[Speaker 0]: All right, well, Younif,
00:14:27.900 --> 00:14:28.400
thank you so much for your time.
00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:29.640
Feel free to stay in the room.
00:14:30.920 --> 00:14:31.240
I see that some people have started joining
00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:34.220
on BBB. If you have more questions,
00:14:36.780 --> 00:14:37.020
feel free to unmute yourself and ask them
00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:39.900
live. Younid, I could ask you also to perhaps
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:41.760
answer the question. I've put the link to the
00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:44.480
pad in the BBB chat, so if you look at the...
00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:47.640
Here, I think, we're not mirrored on BBB.
00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:49.280
If you look at the left you should be able to
00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:51.580
see the chat and the questions and if you
00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:52.840
could just answer the last question that
00:14:55.440 --> 00:14:55.640
would be great. For us on the general track
00:14:57.980 --> 00:14:58.180
we will be moving to the next talk and
00:14:59.700 --> 00:14:59.820
Yannick do you have any last thing to say in
00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:02.900
[Speaker 1]: Thank everyone who put together the
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:04.820
conference and thank you to everyone who
00:15:06.680 --> 00:15:07.180
helps with the EMMS.
00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:08.440
[Speaker 0]: 10 seconds? All right,
00:15:09.160 --> 00:15:09.440
well, thank you so much,
00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:11.440
Yoni. We'll probably see you later.
00:15:17.720 --> 00:15:17.860
Bye-bye. Wonderful. And I think we are off
00:15:18.620 --> 00:15:18.760
air. Thank you so much,
00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:20.920
Juni. I need to step out and go take care of
00:15:23.260 --> 00:15:23.760
[Speaker 1]: Okay, wonderful. Thank you very much.
00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:24.520
[Speaker 0]: the next talk. Bye-bye.
00:15:25.520 --> 00:15:25.760
And just to, I forgot to mention,
00:15:27.160 --> 00:15:27.260
but you can still talk here and everything is
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:28.620
still being recorded. So,
00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:28.940
I'll see you later.
00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:32.820
[Speaker 2]: Excellent. Bye-bye. Bye.
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.100
[Speaker 3]: Oh, hello.
00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:41.100
[Speaker 1]: Wait, you're still, I cannot hear you yet.
00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:43.080
[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this
00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:43.580
conference.
00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:12.780
[Speaker 2]: Okay.
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:18.400
[Speaker 3]: Can you hear me now? I just wanted to say hi
00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:20.320
and thank you. My name's Grant.
00:16:23.740 --> 00:16:24.220
I've, you helped me contribute to EMMS maybe
00:16:26.820 --> 00:16:26.980
2 or 3 years ago. I was trying to do the
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:28.980
[Speaker 2]: So,
00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:29.840
[Speaker 3]: track tag stuff. yeah.
00:16:32.148 --> 00:16:32.571
So I just wanted to say thank you.
00:16:35.400 --> 00:16:35.680
[Speaker 1]: Thank you for continuing and going through
00:16:38.560 --> 00:16:38.680
that entire process. I know that 1 of the
00:16:40.380 --> 00:16:40.520
things that happens is that people want to
00:16:43.940 --> 00:16:44.440
contribute, but it's not as slick as GitHub
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:46.580
and stuff like that, especially with the
00:16:53.400 --> 00:16:53.900
copper assignment. And objectively,
00:16:56.920 --> 00:16:57.420
it's not that. It's just harder than what
00:16:58.680 --> 00:16:59.180
they imagine it might be.
00:17:01.500 --> 00:17:01.680
[Speaker 3]: Yeah. Well, I appreciate it.
00:17:03.340 --> 00:17:03.440
I think you're doing a wonderful job as a
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:07.660
maintainer. I still hang out on the list and
00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:09.880
enjoy listening in on the discussions.
00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:10.460
So.
00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:14.626
[Speaker 2]: Yeah. But that's it. I think that's it.
00:17:16.700 --> 00:17:17.200
I think that's it. And I think that's it.
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:17.890
And I think that's it.
00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:23.660
I appreciate it. And I'll leave you to all of
00:17:27.781 --> 00:17:27.811
you to go on from being a product.
00:17:28.088 --> 00:17:28.118
And that she valued to all of us long term
00:17:28.180 --> 00:17:28.680
being a project.
00:17:31.460 --> 00:17:31.960
[Speaker 1]: If you're not super duper active,
00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:33.720
being there long term,
00:17:37.360 --> 00:17:37.860
people tend to find it easier trying to
00:17:40.840 --> 00:17:41.060
continue contributing to the project if
00:17:42.360 --> 00:17:42.620
there's a consistency there,
00:17:43.520 --> 00:17:44.020
if there isn't a churn,
00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:48.160
if there is a kind of a core group.
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:52.940
I guess it's like, you think it's constant.
00:17:58.280 --> 00:17:58.780
Eliezer Etzke and RMS,
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:00.920
whatever on the next mailing list,
00:18:03.040 --> 00:18:03.540
You know, okay, there are certain people that
00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:05.800
I think so. So thank you for that.
00:18:06.340 --> 00:18:06.840
That's very important.
00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:08.040
That helps.
00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:12.940
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I'm, I feel like when I started using
00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:14.540
EMMS several years ago,
00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:16.820
it's, it's improved a lot since then.
00:18:19.540 --> 00:18:20.040
And I notice your focus on helping new users
00:18:22.540 --> 00:18:22.800
get started quickly. And I think the talk
00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:24.160
today will help with that too.
00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:24.660
So
00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:32.700
[Speaker 1]: yeah, I want to put you know,
00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:34.360
the, especially the TLDR,
00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:37.640
like how to start it on the link that to the
00:18:44.080 --> 00:18:44.380
website, find somehow that we can get on to
00:18:52.900 --> 00:18:53.400
prepare for that. And this together.
00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.200
Now, question for you,
00:18:58.260 --> 00:18:58.620
Where would you like to see EMMS go?
00:18:59.440 --> 00:18:59.820
Where do you see it landing?
00:19:02.780 --> 00:19:02.900
What do you feel like this is what this is
00:19:04.540 --> 00:19:05.040
we're sorely missing these things?
00:19:09.740 --> 00:19:10.240
[Speaker 3]: I don't know. I mean, I picked it up,
00:19:13.540 --> 00:19:13.940
because I both use it to play my music
00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:17.320
collection, but also, like I record my own
00:19:20.140 --> 00:19:20.320
music. And I wanted to be able to edit my
00:19:23.500 --> 00:19:24.000
metadata in Emacs, because editing metadata
00:19:29.100 --> 00:19:29.220
elsewhere sucks. And so that's kind of why I
00:19:30.280 --> 00:19:30.560
got involved with that.
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:33.940
And I was like, being able to edit metadata,
00:19:37.580 --> 00:19:37.900
especially for content that maybe you're
00:19:41.760 --> 00:19:42.180
creating or because I have a bunch of files
00:19:44.340 --> 00:19:44.700
of just unlabeled stuff I've recorded on,
00:19:45.340 --> 00:19:45.780
you know, different quarters,
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:47.520
things like that. So that's kind of where I
00:19:50.320 --> 00:19:50.740
was focusing on it. It's the only media tool
00:19:52.540 --> 00:19:52.720
that lets me do that, you know,
00:19:54.520 --> 00:19:54.940
I can play the music back and have quick
00:19:58.260 --> 00:19:58.380
editing. So I know there was a couple of
00:20:00.860 --> 00:20:01.120
things we had talked about in terms of maybe
00:20:03.260 --> 00:20:03.480
improving kind of the user interface for the
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:05.940
tag editor, things like that.
00:20:09.300 --> 00:20:09.600
So I don't have any grand visions for where
00:20:15.660 --> 00:20:15.800
EMMS should go. I know pretty much all the
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:17.420
things I've heard about it already.
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:20.700
You can hook up to GNU FM,
00:20:21.940 --> 00:20:22.440
the Scrabbling Service,
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:23.700
and all that kind of stuff.
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:27.180
I don't really feel like it's missing much,
00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:29.280
especially being able to choose the back
00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:32.320
ends. I guess, if anything,
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:35.220
it's the interface. How can it be even more
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:38.660
intuitive for users? And I think that,
00:20:41.500 --> 00:20:41.820
you know, we need more people playing around
00:20:43.380 --> 00:20:43.880
with it, I guess. Yeah.
00:20:46.220 --> 00:20:46.420
[Speaker 2]: I think a really good
00:20:47.520 --> 00:20:47.800
[Speaker 1]: Well, yeah. example of that is,
00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:49.600
because I'm sure there are lots of people
00:20:50.440 --> 00:20:50.740
playing around with it,
00:20:51.460 --> 00:20:51.960
arriving at a conclusion,
00:20:53.860 --> 00:20:54.360
keeping it to themselves and moving on.
00:20:59.160 --> 00:20:59.300
Yeah. Which, and I know that a lot of bits of
00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:02.160
software put a send a bug report feature in
00:21:04.660 --> 00:21:05.020
and stuff like that and no 1 uses those
00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:08.000
either. So that's the frictional cost.
00:21:10.440 --> 00:21:10.940
I think the context switch for people between
00:21:16.120 --> 00:21:16.360
this doesn't work to actually formulating in
00:21:17.840 --> 00:21:18.340
words what didn't work,
00:21:21.380 --> 00:21:21.600
that is a very expensive context which most
00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:24.980
people will not do. And we're poorer for
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:32.660
that. So, I think that when we integrate
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:35.240
music brains and other things like that into.
00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:37.960
Now, of course, music brains will probably,
00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:41.380
it would be very funny if you pull up your
00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:43.660
stuff, right? Something that you wrote and
00:21:46.080 --> 00:21:46.280
you say, hey, music brains match this and
00:21:48.600 --> 00:21:49.000
it's not there, then it'll probably suggest
00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:52.220
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I've heard that.
00:21:52.660 --> 00:21:52.940
[Speaker 1]: some wild things. Yeah,
00:21:58.260 --> 00:21:58.400
because there are, there was a system I was
00:22:02.060 --> 00:22:02.220
looking at its code for researching stuff for
00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:04.700
EMS And I'm trying to remember what it's
00:22:05.720 --> 00:22:06.040
named. It begins with a J,
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:07.660
it's this media player,
00:22:13.780 --> 00:22:13.940
free floss media player that it's like a
00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:17.520
media server that can cast to a television
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:21.220
and stuff like that. And I asked it to
00:22:24.280 --> 00:22:24.780
automatically label things and the results
00:22:28.180 --> 00:22:28.380
were horrible. It thought that half of my
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:33.400
songs were movies. It thought that JPEGs were
00:22:35.800 --> 00:22:36.220
songs. It just, it did some,
00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:41.020
it did incredibly, it's not a solved problem,
00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:45.160
I think. So the, what I'm thinking with
00:22:49.340 --> 00:22:49.540
MusicBrainz and those services is that you
00:22:51.840 --> 00:22:52.240
hit a button and you have you get another
00:22:57.040 --> 00:22:57.240
pane with a suggestion and you either and you
00:22:59.060 --> 00:22:59.240
can copy through you can say okay copy this
00:23:01.560 --> 00:23:01.760
and this in this field over or reject the
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:04.460
suggestion and maybe get another 1.
00:23:04.940 --> 00:23:05.280
So,
00:23:07.360 --> 00:23:07.660
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, I like that a lot.
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:09.480
That's more like a diff,
00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:11.640
right? Like you get the diff between the 2
00:23:13.540 --> 00:23:14.040
and you can apply which changes you like.
00:23:15.580 --> 00:23:16.080
Yeah. Was it Jellyfin?
00:23:18.220 --> 00:23:18.720
Is that... Jellyfin? Yeah,
00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:19.960
[Speaker 1]: Jellyfin, yes.
00:23:22.340 --> 00:23:22.840
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, And when that happened,
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.460
did it clobber all your metadata?
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:27.940
Or does it just label stuff?
00:23:28.860 --> 00:23:29.360
[Speaker 2]: No, it...
00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:38.740
[Speaker 1]: Escalate things somewhere inside it and to
00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:49.340
looking for really, not allow me to do very
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.080
easily. So I was, so, you know,
00:23:56.660 --> 00:23:56.960
on 1 hand, it makes me feel,
00:23:58.980 --> 00:23:59.120
oh, we're not the only ones dealing with
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:00.840
this. We're not the only ones struggling with
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:01.800
this. On the other hand,
00:24:05.660 --> 00:24:05.820
it would be nice if that's a paragon that we
00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:08.680
can look to and say, this is a wonderful way
00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:11.540
of doing it. Let's incorporate as much of
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:15.520
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's a tricky problem,
00:24:18.220 --> 00:24:18.620
especially if you're modifying people's media
00:24:19.780 --> 00:24:20.280
files you know so
00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:23.420
[Speaker 1]: that as we can. yeah I'm also very convinced
00:24:31.560 --> 00:24:32.060
that so I'm not a mainframe for MMS because
00:24:35.020 --> 00:24:35.520
I'm old and curmudgeonly essentially in my,
00:24:37.660 --> 00:24:37.900
in the way they do it.
00:24:40.080 --> 00:24:40.520
And honestly, I rarely ever,
00:24:42.780 --> 00:24:43.180
I use the MMS browser when I need to debug
00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:44.660
the MS browser. I don't,
00:24:48.740 --> 00:24:49.240
I use very simple commands and I even rarely
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:50.940
look at the playlists.
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.220
That was 1 of the things because when I got
00:24:56.680 --> 00:24:57.100
into MMS originally when my eyesight started
00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:00.140
going so I had to rely less and less on GUI
00:25:02.800 --> 00:25:03.300
interfaces. So that was,
00:25:06.340 --> 00:25:06.840
so to this day that's how I use EMMS.
00:25:08.560 --> 00:25:09.060
[Speaker 3]: Yeah, it's interesting.
00:25:13.260 --> 00:25:13.760
I remember running into a browser bug because
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:15.980
I think just my age, like,
00:25:18.120 --> 00:25:18.340
I want to be able to tab through and like
00:25:20.060 --> 00:25:20.560
that was a huge that that changed recently
00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:22.800
right where you tab and it unfolds in the
00:25:27.620 --> 00:25:27.980
browser but yeah I realized that people use
00:25:30.600 --> 00:25:31.100
emms in so many different ways just like any
00:25:36.020 --> 00:25:36.220
piece of emacs there's there's many ways to
00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.440
do it but appreciate your time I'm gonna
00:25:41.880 --> 00:25:42.260
actually put together this Christmas tree
00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:43.900
[Speaker 0]: So. Wonderful.
00:25:45.260 --> 00:25:45.660
[Speaker 3]: behind me. Yeah, just wanted to say hi,
00:25:50.900 --> 00:25:51.400
meet you in person. But yeah.
00:25:54.340 --> 00:25:54.840
[Speaker 1]: Yeah, excellent. I appreciate it a lot and we
00:25:55.080 --> 00:25:55.580
generate
00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:00.260
[Speaker 2]: some interesting questions.
00:26:00.780 --> 00:26:01.280
Yeah, thank you.
00:26:03.760 --> 00:26:03.960
[Speaker 4]: You are currently the only person in this
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:04.460
conference.
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:13.980
[Speaker 1]: I'm going to have a look at the questions
00:26:14.060 --> 00:26:14.560
here.
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:29.940
Let's see. Let's see. So there is,
00:26:32.900 --> 00:26:33.260
okay. There's a question here.
00:26:34.540 --> 00:26:34.680
I like what you said about balancing the
00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:36.380
concern for software freedom with the worry
00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:38.560
that this might alienate the package user.
00:26:39.960 --> 00:26:40.120
I wonder if you have advice for other
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:41.820
maintainers how to communicate this sort of
00:26:43.660 --> 00:26:44.120
thing diplomatically? Yes,
00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:46.160
when you have to deny implementing a feature
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.980
for a freedom reason. This in fact happens
00:26:56.140 --> 00:26:56.320
all the time. A recent example of this was a
00:26:58.380 --> 00:26:58.580
YouTube download, right,
00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:00.040
the YouTube download feature.
00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:04.540
At the time, okay, so stepping back,
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:07.940
the request was to have a YouTube download
00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:12.440
feature integrated strongly into eMMS so that
00:27:16.260 --> 00:27:16.640
you put in a YouTube URL and you can download
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:18.140
the video and play it.
00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:22.280
And the question isn't really whether you can
00:27:24.660 --> 00:27:25.120
chain YouTube Downloader or 1 of those things
00:27:26.600 --> 00:27:27.100
into your EMMS configuration.
00:27:28.140 --> 00:27:28.520
You can do whatever you want.
00:27:30.840 --> 00:27:31.340
But the question is, does EMMS actually
00:27:33.340 --> 00:27:33.740
integrate with it really,
00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:36.040
really strongly to the extent where it tells
00:27:37.800 --> 00:27:38.140
you oh you don't need to download install
00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:40.820
please go ahead and install that or whatever
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.180
and at the time we checked it we found out
00:27:45.800 --> 00:27:46.120
that you know the version that we were
00:27:49.280 --> 00:27:49.780
looking at of the YouTube download or YTDLP
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:52.220
or whatever it was called,
00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:56.580
actually downloaded a good amount of
00:27:59.200 --> 00:27:59.540
proprietary JavaScript onto your machine and
00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:02.480
ran it, just as if you were going on to the
00:28:06.560 --> 00:28:06.880
YouTube page, which is not for me to tell
00:28:09.980 --> 00:28:10.480
people not to do if they want to do that,
00:28:16.240 --> 00:28:16.460
but it's absolutely for me not to cause to
00:28:18.540 --> 00:28:19.040
happen on the user's machine without them.
00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:21.660
1 of the last thing that I want to do in the
00:28:25.980 --> 00:28:26.180
world is have a user inside Emacs press a
00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:30.160
button and have proprietary software get
00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:32.540
downloaded behind their back and run on their
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:38.420
machine that would be disastrous so we had to
00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:41.600
say no we had to say that's I'm sorry that's
00:28:47.060 --> 00:28:47.380
beyond the pale and in fact in doing so some
00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:51.420
people who were using this system said,
00:28:53.900 --> 00:28:54.400
actually I had no idea it was doing this
00:28:56.660 --> 00:28:57.040
behind my back. I thought it was just magic.
00:28:58.860 --> 00:28:59.360
I thought it was a YouTube video without any
00:29:01.580 --> 00:29:01.780
freedom issues. I'm going to look into it or
00:29:03.120 --> 00:29:03.620
I'm going to stop using it.
00:29:11.180 --> 00:29:11.680
So my advice would be Stand firm and just be
00:29:15.040 --> 00:29:15.380
Not not preachy. Don't tell people what they
00:29:19.580 --> 00:29:19.960
need to do be very clear about what you stand
00:29:21.900 --> 00:29:22.400
for and what the project stands for,
00:29:28.660 --> 00:29:28.940
and so they very clearly know where you
00:29:30.460 --> 00:29:30.960
stand. And I think that people actually
00:29:36.540 --> 00:29:37.040
appreciate that more than a political answer,
00:29:43.540 --> 00:29:44.040
right? That has been my experience.
00:29:49.800 --> 00:29:50.000
Now, excuse me, taking into account that 1 or
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:52.700
2 people will tell you,
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.440
this is terrible. I'm leaving.
00:30:00.550 --> 00:30:00.625
[Speaker 2]: If you do this,
00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:01.620
[Speaker 1]: This is useless. you're free software or
00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:03.900
whatever, and just leave.
00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:06.360
But some people are ornery.
00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:09.620
That's not necessarily something bad that you
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.180
did. But that has happened.
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:14.700
There are multiple stories.
00:30:16.840 --> 00:30:17.080
Because the MMS is so old,
00:30:20.080 --> 00:30:20.580
there are multiple points in which non-free
00:30:23.940 --> 00:30:24.140
software intersected with the EMS because of
00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:28.820
multimedia and we had to go the other
00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:33.800
direction and so far it has served EMS well
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:38.740
like the project has died as a result.
00:30:39.800 --> 00:30:40.200
Of course, can't prove a negative,
00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:42.540
don't know where we would be if we had taken,
00:30:44.760 --> 00:30:44.860
gone down that route. I'm pretty sure we
00:30:46.100 --> 00:30:46.600
would need a new ELPA,
00:30:50.860 --> 00:30:51.360
and I think being so clearly integrated with
00:30:55.040 --> 00:30:55.540
emacs is a huge benefit to eMMS because it's
00:30:57.660 --> 00:30:58.160
it allows people to install it very easily.
00:31:08.760 --> 00:31:09.020
And those are all the questions that I can
00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:09.520
see.
00:31:15.060 --> 00:31:15.560
[Speaker 2]: You
