WEBVTT
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About five seconds until we go live.
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And we are live!
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Hello again!
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It's the first time you're seeing me today, and hopefully you're still laughing from
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the little joke Carl had at the end of his talk.
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Hi Carl, how are you doing?
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I'm fine thanks, how are you doing?
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I'm doing pretty fine, but I am currently struggling to make my windows slightly larger
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because what am I doing?
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Okay, okay, I think people can see me relatively well right now.
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Yeah, I am doing well, and thank you for the joke.
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It feels like when I see people wearing suits during a BBB presentation, or sorry, not a
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BBB presentation, an EmacsConc presentation, I feel like it's a reply to my own style and
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I feel attacked.
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But I will just confirm, how do I do this without making too much of a fool, I will
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lower my standing desk, and you can see that I am actually wearing trousers.
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So yes, I am wearing socks and sandals because it's really cold right now and it's very comfortable
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as well.
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Don't ask me on this, but I am technically more dressed than you are.
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Well this was a lederhose, actually a quite nice lederhose, which you wear for specific
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occasions.
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It's not considered as something special.
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No, definitely, but it is looking a little bit odd to my French style.
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Yeah, especially the combination, yes, you're right.
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Right, we could be talking about hours for this, but I suppose people are not actually
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here to hear us talk about this, but about you talk.
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I'm not going to make the affront of asking if you've got the pad open, considering that
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you have been managing the pad and helping us manage the pad for what, three years now,
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or something?
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Yeah, but this year, actually, it's doing great without my help, so yeah.
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Actually there are already two answers.
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Somebody was nice enough to copy my answers from the IRC to here.
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Can you filter out blocked tasks on stuff like your agenda, on specific agenda view,
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when you want to know what you can do next?
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That's a tricky question.
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The blocked tasks are never shown on the agenda by default.
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Whenever there is no scheduled timestamp attached to a heading, it's not visible on my agenda.
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If you use the dependencies, as I described it in the demo, you will see that the scheduled
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timestamp, or date stamp, is only added when the previous one is marked as done, or canceled.
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So therefore, blocked tasks are never shown on the agenda by default, if you use it in
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this, in that way.
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The functionality seems quite nice, but the markup seems pretty heavy in the property
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drawers.
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Do you ever have any issues having so much meta-level information?
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No, as long as I don't have to type it manually, I don't see any issue at all, so far.
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Because I tend to have very, rather large org-mode files in any way.
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So far, I haven't thought of, oh my gosh, this is so bloated, I need to simplify it.
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Not yet.
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Looking for the IRC, if there is something going on.
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If not, we'll be able to, because this is the showdown people were waiting.
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Two years ago, you wrote an article about Algrom not being good, and I'm being polite.
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We need to fight this out right now.
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Yeah, sure.
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Actually, I do think that Zettelkasten methods are interesting, but so far, I haven't seen
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much use in my personal use.
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But I can imagine that, for example, if you're working on a PhD thesis, or you're studying
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in some research field and so forth, it's quite handy.
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The only thing my concept so far doesn't have what the usual Zettelkasten methods do provide
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is this visual navigation method, which I would not use anyway.
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So I don't see any purpose at all for Zettelkasten methods for my personal use cases, as long
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as I don't think that this visual navigation would be very handy in my case.
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I'm very happy with the bidirectional links, because they get me from A to B, and I can
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connect ideas and headings and tasks and whatnot.
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So this is basically the most important part of Zettelkasten method from my perspective.
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And this is what these bidirectional links and dependencies provide for me in my personal
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setup.
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Yeah, and I was taking a jab at it, because even you, with your own article, you were
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saying how, you know, it's a title to grab attention, but actually you had a lot of things
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Yeah, it was trick-based.
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Yeah, I didn't want to say the word, you know, I'm trying to be, like, I didn't read the
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actual title that should title the article.
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But yeah, I think you were also interested in what we were discussing yesterday.
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I can't remember which talk, because we had a number of org talks, but when I was discussing
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in one of the Q&A the concept of a slip box for multiple peoples, you seemed to be interested
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in this topic as well.
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Yes.
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Yeah, my personal interest is in personal information management, but collaborative
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information management is of course a very related and important part, and I have some
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background by writing a PhD thesis on organizing information and files and whatnot, and therefore
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I'm interested in the ideas how to make a collaborative, let's say, something that might
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actually work within a work group or even larger.
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There are some things that overlap between personal information management and collaborative,
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for example, I'm sure you know the vocabulary problem, where people do have different mental
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models of the same stuff, so therefore finding one common phrase or one common word is a
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difficult task to do, and you get these kind of troubles all over the place if you go into
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that direction.
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Yeah, this is why I think just like a lot of software solutions, they need to be backed
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up by strong methodology on the side.
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It feels like it's always a balance when you have the tools that are helping you enable
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something like Emacs, like Org, like Zorcast, EL, Orgrom, or any kind of the, I don't want
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to say Orgrom clone, it's like Dark Souls, when everything becomes a Dark Souls clone,
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that's not the point, we have Zorcast and modes in Emacs that allow you to do this no-taking,
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so that's the tools.
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And then you have the methods on the other end, which are about how do you use those
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tools to work with multiple people, we're only talking about collective sandbox here.
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And yeah, there is obviously the vocabulary discussion, the point that Carl just mentioned,
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there are some solutions methodologically, like you can have a taxonomy of all the words
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you're using, if you have a list of patterns, for instance, it's good to fix the language
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within a file, so that you can have something that people can read.
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It's kind of like, you have dictionaries, obviously, but it reminds me of some very
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specific dictionaries, like the hacker dictionary, when you have a lot of entries, where people
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can learn the lingua, how to use the internet, how to chat on IOC, stuff like this, it feels
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like a group sandbox is always going to be oriented towards solving a particular project,
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I think, and I think taxonomy and vocabulary would be very important to have.
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Anyway, I don't want to take too much, this is a very interesting topic, obviously, you
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wrote a PhD on it, and I wrote software on it, and you've wrote software on it as well,
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but we should probably talk about this later, at least, but maybe come up with something
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to present in a year or so.
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Okay.
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So, somebody wrote the BBB is not open yet, I don't know if it's on purpose or not.
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I'll do this now.
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You'll see me whisper, you'll see something very fancy, look at me, I'm going to press
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the button, you're going to see something appear at the bottom to talk to production,
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this is the thing that I've developed since yesterday, it's amazing, wasn't it?
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This was technology, right there.
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So yes, the BBB will be open in about 30 seconds to one minute.
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And people, it's the first one of the day, so I'll do the reminder.
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In order to join us in a room right now, where I'm talking with Carl, you will need to go
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to the talk page, so you can find all the talks on emaskov.org-2022.
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Then you find the talk by Carl Voigt, you can look for his name, you click on the link
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over there and at the top you will have a link to the BBB room in which we are currently. Also
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if you're on IRC you will just have gotten a notification about joining the room. So in the
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meantime Carl, how about we answer some of the new questions that you have on the pad whilst people
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get warmed up. Sure. So the next one, does this change how you use to-do keywords next to do
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blocked? Avoiding some or starting to use others? No. I don't see any connection. And my keywords
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are next, oops, next, started, waiting, done, cancelled. That's basically it if you're interested.
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But my configuration is online anyway. I can paste the link later. And yes, I can paste the link to
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my thesis as well as ask on the IRC. Carl, if you don't mind, I do have a quick question because
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I'm going to forget otherwise. We have someone in IRC asking you, is your PhD published? I'm not a
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PhD but your thesis is published. Yes, of course. Everything of my PhD is public including the actual
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research work, the hard figures of the user experiments and the derived functions, everything
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of course. The later one actually should be also in org mode so 100% reproducible which was very
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important to me. Would you have a link, so maybe not right now but in the pad, could you include a
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link later on? I've already wrote down a question for that on my own so that I don't forget to
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answer it afterwards. Okay, amazing. Thank you. You can continue with the questions. We also have
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people joining on. I see microphones now and some of the people joining on BBB so I'm excited. I'm
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getting ready for your questions. But in the meantime, Carl, feel free to go. I'm answering
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all the questions in the pad anyway so if somebody is asking something in the BBB, I'm open to it.
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Right, there is just one other thing I need to say. We need to move with the next talk in about
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eight minutes. So, Carl, if you could maybe not rush but answer fairly quickly the last questions
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on the pad, then we can move on to live Q&A inside BBB. Sure. OrgBrain has stuff like parent links
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and directional links, sibling links, and if org.roam.else had nothing else interesting,
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what about, like, the previous stuff? I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure what the previous stuff
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was either. So, referring to side window, where it's not only the linked heading, so not only the
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link is shown but actually some heading title and short contents below it. So, that's very handy
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when you are looking, like, or is it relevant, or it's not relevant.
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To me, it's not relevant at the moment. I don't have the requirement for specific link types
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or directions. I like how, Carl, you feel obligated to write and speak at the same time.
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Like, you can let go of your responsibility as the pad. We have another volunteer helping you
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with the pad right now, so don't worry about it. Perfect. So, do you find that the links are fragile,
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hard to maintain? No, not at all. The only thing that I have to remark here is probably that
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sometimes I rename the links when the heading actually was renamed afterward and the link name
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isn't reflecting the actual heading. Then I do a quick search and replace all of my Org Mode files,
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but that's basically it. So, no, I really love the bi-directional and uni-directional links,
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and it doesn't give me any burden to maintain them. Would it be of interest to, like, make auto
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description for links in Org? You have an ID, you don't have any description, but then
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description is generated automatically. My IDs are auto-generated and they are generated from
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the heading title, so usually my links are pretty much self-explanatory.
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Oh, so what you're referring to is that you have a link, then you rename the linked heading,
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and then you change the link ID. Oh yeah, that's true. Links are not synchronized with their
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headings once they are generated, but usually a heading title is not changed that often by me,
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so this is not a really important problem in my use cases. PhD thesis unlinked later.
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Why not Org UUIDs for IDs and the Preferences human-readable ones? Yeah, I hate UUIDs because
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they tell me nothing at all, so I want to get an idea to what I'm linking to. Therefore, I've got
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rid of all UUIDs in my setup and I prefer something that gives me as a user an idea of
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what's happening when I open up this link. Sorry, have you been able to hear me? Is it
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the first OTS mic of the conference? Wow, this is amazing. I was mispressing the button, I think.
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I apologize humbly, deeply, and sincerely about the hot mic. No problem.
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Do you have or use anything for what links here to this heading in a more occurred grep style
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buffer and auto? No, not yet. I'm not using that, but I may be able to what links to here
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by looking for the ID. All the heading IDs start with a date stamp and then a
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string which is made up from the heading title. If I want to see what links to this specific heading
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without having backlinks, I usually use org occur within the buffer and get the result right away.
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All right, I'm just going to give you, I have the bad role here, I have to be the man with
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the watch telling you that we have about three minutes left in this talk and afterwards we'll
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need to move on to the next one. So you have about two minutes. Carla, I didn't ask you if
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you had anything else to add over your talk. I wish we had more time to discuss because it's
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a very interesting topic, but sadly we will have to get going with the next talk in two minutes.
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So the next two minutes are yours. I continue answering questions on the
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pad of course and you'll see me around on the IRC. I'm still around in IRC. I will answer all
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the questions on the pad even after we continue and everybody who wants to get in touch and talk
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about this stuff may find me on the internet. Sure, there is still the nebulous concept.
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Every Microsoft says we should have a meeting room for maintainers or for people well invested
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into org and melpa stuff and package writing because it feels like if we have so many ideas
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and so far the only person who's been able to implement every single idea they have is
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Alfa Papa because I have no idea how they do it. That's actually a group of people I think.
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Yes, we need to check if Alfa Papa appeared in two different rooms at the same time. I need to
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confirm this for my own sanity. But yeah, barring Adam from being able to do this, we have so many
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ideas and it feels like if we were talking about them with other people we might be able to implement.
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I've been asking about the cloning machine so maybe Alfa Papa got one.
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Yeah, well anyway I'm sorry for cutting the conversation a little short but we will have
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to get started with the next talk. So thank you so much Karl for taking the time first to send a
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recording to us for answering questions now and also for being a volunteer for eMaximum. Thank
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you so much for all of those three things. Oh, you're welcome. We will probably see you next
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year. I am now definitely set on expecting a Cardboard talk every year and you will have to
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top it next year. I'm not sure what you will find to make the end funny but you have set the bar
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quite high and you need to go even higher this time. Next time without the Leda Jose oil.
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As long as you don't show up, put more clothes, not fewer garments, please.
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We will have to get started with the next talk. Thank you so much Karl. No, I'm sorry. We need to
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get moving to the next talk. I'll be closing the BBB room and we'll start with the next talk at
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the top of the minute in 30 seconds. Bye-bye everyone. Bye. All right, we are not live anymore.
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Thank you so much Karl. I have to get going. We need to make sure everything works now.
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Sure. Bye. Bye-bye.
