WEBVTT
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Thanks, Howard, for the great talk.
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We have the Q&A now open.
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Folks are welcome to put their questions on the pad on IRC, and we might also open up
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this room in a few minutes if you might prefer to join Big Blue Button directly and ask your
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questions to Howard that way.
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Yeah, so Howard, take it away.
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Thank you, thank you.
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Yeah, I wasn't expecting to have a Q&A.
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Tried to condense it so fast because this was supposed to be a lightning talk, but hey,
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it's good to talk to everybody.
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So question on the Etherpad here is, do I fall back to vterm only when needing terminal
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emulation?
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And yeah, I kind of know when I'm going to need that based on the use case.
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Like right now, I'm doing a lot of building with Docker, and Docker just makes a mess
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out of everything.
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And so I can sometimes will like start up a vterm for that.
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But I don't like actually typing a lot of stuff in there as much.
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So actually, I wrote a little program to, you know, the compile command, I just send
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the compile over into it that I could see the output and then I could just and it pops
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right back to where I'm at.
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So I don't know, I think you kind of need to use a little bit of both.
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But yeah, it would be nice to kind of flip a window back and forth because there's some
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things about Eshell that I actually do like a lot.
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Now my Tramp suggestion, okay, I'll admit Tramp is, it's kind of fickle.
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I think we all get sometimes better use cases out of it than others.
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Uh oh, my headphones are out of batteries here.
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So we might have to flip here.
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But yeah, so the Tramp, I don't know.
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I think we have to kind of play with it and see how it goes.
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See another question is, have we thought about adding the Eshell manual?
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You know, after doing this talk and I'm realizing a lot of the half baked or almost good stuff
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with Eshell that we could just kind of fix a little bit and some of the, especially some
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of the docs, yeah, I'm kind of thinking that maybe, maybe I should hook up with somebody
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and we could try to do a little bit of extensions there, you know, like fix up the manual a
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little bit more, make it more of a tutorial, I think would help as well as fixing some
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of the little problems like that.
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Trying to be able to cat a buffer into the shell, I think is pretty useful.
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Let's see, do I know if Eshell can be used from Elisp?
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Yeah, I use that quite a bit.
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I actually have functions that call an Eshell command.
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That way I get all of the, you know, the benefits that you can get from an Eshell, like with
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the predicates and all that kind of thing.
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I can't remember who's been doing it, but lately I've been seeing a lot of the do what
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I mean shell commands that they're, they're building up a bunch of functions that do very
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specific things, what they need.
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And it seems like there's a lot of like special commands they're adding into it to like get
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the file name and that sort of thing.
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And I was thinking, Hey, that's a great idea, but let's do it with Eshell.
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So I've been doing something similar, but just calling out to Eshell itself.
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Let's see, next question, how does that interplay with my literate dellop bop approach?
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Yeah, the two are different.
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You know, when I'm doing my literate work, you know, I'm in an org file and I'm just
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writing commands, but yeah, sometimes it's just a little bit, you know, I'm not planning
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on keeping it.
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I'm just kind of investigating things and that's what rebels are really good for.
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And in that case, yeah, I'll pop over into Eshell, write things.
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If I see something good, that's where I was talking about my little engineering notebook,
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sending it out to a capture and then, and capturing it out or writing it into a buffer
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where I can do more things to it.
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I guess it's the flexibility I think we all kind of need because you don't know exactly
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where you're going until you're halfway there.
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And it's like, Oh, I don't want to start up a new app.
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That's why we're an Emacs.
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So yeah.
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Oh yeah.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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Alvaro Ramineers.
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Yeah.
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That's the stuff I've been reading a lot about.
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Let's see.
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Another question.
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Do I have a strategy for getting around Eshell's lack of support for input redirection?
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You know, it is what it is.
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I don't have any ideas at the moment.
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It's a good idea.
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Whenever, you know, we're so used to doing pipes and whenever you start doing a pipe
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at all, Eshell just immediately throws it into the shell.
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But then pulling it back in is kind of difficult.
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So that's why I just started writing them out to buffers and then pulling them back
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in.
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And I find that just a little bit more useful situation for what I'm doing.
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I don't know if other people will find it as useful as I do.
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But yeah, I'm getting a little tired of trying to get just the right command of piping everything
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together.
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And two years ago when I was talking about my little piper idea, this is kind of what
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it's morphed into was just using Eshell, running the commands, editing the stuff and then pulling
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it back in to send it to some other app.
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Or not even pulling it back in, just using it at that point and sending it off into emails.
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Yes, you can call elist functions, the commands.
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I was hoping this could be kind of clarified a little bit.
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But if you have any function, any emacs list function that starts with Eshell slash, that
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gets called first before any command.
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So you can override just about every shell command.
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That many of them are.
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So there is an Eshell slash ls.
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So if you type ls into your Eshell, it's actually calling that function.
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Now most of those functions will, if it runs into too many options that it doesn't know
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about or something like that, call out to whatever ls program you've got installed.
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But that's how it goes.
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So yes, buffers are superior pipes.
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Whoever is typing that, I think that's a great idea.
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I think that's kind of the concept that I'm realizing this year.
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Hold on one second while I switch headphones here.
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I suppose you can still hear me, right?
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Yep, I can still hear you.
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Well, nobody's talking yet.
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I can still hear you.
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OK, perfect, perfect.
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And I can hear you too.
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So that works well.
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Let's see.
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Any other questions in the IRC?
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Not seeing them mostly in the etherpad here.
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Do I have a preferred method for getting argument completion for shell commands?
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OK, that's a really good question.
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There is a function that I found in Eshell for getting options.
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And it's like, great, that's what I was expecting, something like a get ops.
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So I start playing around with it, and it's like almost there.
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The problem is it's not really as flexible as I would think.
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It either takes command line arguments or it doesn't.
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And it's kind of made for very simple commands only.
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So well, I ended up writing my own.
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So I wrote kind of a get ops like function, kind of behaves like it, where you can give
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it a list of single commands, a list of those long commands, some that take options and
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some that don't.
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And you'll see that in my, where I've got it here in the etherpad up on the full code.
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I also posted it up on Mastodon as well earlier.
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But I have a link to my configuration file.
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It's all literate.
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So you can just scroll down, search for get ops, and you'll see my function.
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I haven't fully tested out everything yet.
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Most of the code was actually written for this talk, I found.
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And so there will be bugs.
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But you know, you might find it interesting to grab some of the stuff and play around
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with it.
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If you find some bugs, please send them back to me.
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I'll discover them soon enough.
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So is it possible to get L.base completion for elist calls and eshell?
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Good question.
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I don't know.
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I have been switching from company mode to Corfu.
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Just try it all out.
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I'm getting some pretty good completions, but the EL doc based would be, that would
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be very lovely.
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A plan nine smart shell.
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Sorry, sorry.
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Oh, yes.
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I do remember reading Mickey Peterson's article on eshell and his plan nine idea.
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I was playing around with it for a little bit, but I don't know.
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Yeah.
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I couldn't get it quite working the way I thought I would want it to, so I didn't follow
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through.
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But I just got some good ideas there.
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Any other questions?
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But yes, I should, yeah, I should revisit Mickey Peterson's ideas.
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Say it again.
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Cool.
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Yeah, sorry.
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I guess I was just going to ask a question on the fly here.
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Sure.
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Yeah, which is, so you mentioned this sort of get up function or get up like function
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that you implemented.
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Would you consider maybe having that integrated in Emacs core itself so that it's available
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to all other eshell users?
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I think that'd be a great idea and I'm kind of thinking I need to kind of see what should
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go into eshell and what should maybe be like a side package like eshell ext kind of thing
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for getting some extra stuff because I don't know if everybody wants all of it.
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So having a side package might be a really good idea and then seeing, yeah.
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So yes, if you want to work on it with me.
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Yeah, sure.
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Sounds good.
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Why not?
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Sure.
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Sure.
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All right.
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Any other questions or good?
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I think we still have about, sorry.
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Go ahead.
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Oh, I was going to say I think we're out of questions.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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But we still are not out of time yet.
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So I think I've got more time for Q&A than I thought I had for the actual talk.
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Yeah, it's been interesting.
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So we were kind of debating on switching to two tracks like we have done this year or
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keeping or maintaining the same setup as the previous years, which was one track.
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But sort of all the talks were very like squeezing together and it was a last minute decision
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kind of.
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And we almost did end up going back to one track.
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But we're here.
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And I think that's the reason why some of the Q&As are sometimes longer than the talks
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themselves.
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Well, okay.
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So personally, I love the two track idea and I love all the breaks.
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It's made it a lot easier because last year it's like, oh, I can't even get up.
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Yeah, I feel you.
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And I feel the same too.
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Both, I mean, as someone who's been a little bit watching, but also as organizers, I mean,
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you couldn't catch a breath with like that one track rapid fire of talks one after another.
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So this is much better, I feel like.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So let's keep it.
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Let's keep it going.
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Yeah.
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And next year, maybe I can do 15 minutes.
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Yes.
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Mal?
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Yes.
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Are you the maintainer of Eshell now?
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No, I'm not.
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Just an interested bystander.
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I think Eshell is still just part of Core.
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John Wiggly wrote it originally, but I think it's just part of the core.
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So I don't think anyone is maintaining it per se.
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It certainly is getting a little long in the tooth and we probably need to do some updatings
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on it.
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So maybe that's what we should do for version 30.
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Yeah, I've started to use it a little bit more just because of all the chatter on the
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various blogs, right?
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There is a lot of chatter lately.
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But it burned me recently for like half an hour because I was trying to SSH into a machine
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from Eshell.
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And usually, I use just regular shell mode.
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And for some reason, it just didn't connect up to the SSH agent or whatever.
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So I was thinking that everything's broken and stuff.
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I'm like running around trying to do stuff.
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Oh, it's just because I'm in Eshell trying to do this.
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Yes, yes.
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And if I know I'm going to be SSHing into a box, I don't.
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I just start up vterm and go.
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Then I know it's going to be pretty good.
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I've had a lot of good success in that regard with vterm.
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However, the problem is it's hard to pull that kind of stuff back.
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Like I'll find something interesting and it's like, oh, crap.
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Now I have to control C, control T, and then go up and collect it as opposed to shooting
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it out over into an org file with a redirection.
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That's why I've been kind of playing around with just using Tramp in Eshell as opposed
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to SSHing in.
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My knowledge may vary.
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I thought in the command interpreter, there's some stuff like...
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There is.
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It's supposed to be the visual commands.
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I think there's a list of them, and SSH is one of those.
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It's supposed to then start off as a shell mode, detached little process and feed stuff,
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but I don't know.
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I haven't had as much luck with it, so I haven't really bothered.
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I just jump.
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If I know I'm going to SSH, I'll just start a vterm and go.
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Well, I mean, aside from doing SSH, just using...
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I think there are a couple commands for...
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There's one for taking the command on the command line and putting it into the kill
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ring, and there's another one for flushing the buffer, flushing the last output of your
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buffer, and it works in many different shell or repl-type environments inside Emacs, but
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it doesn't put it into the kill ring, which was sort of confusing to me, so I'll have
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to dive into the Elisp at some point and figure out how to get what I want.
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I think that's the problem with this Eshell.
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There's a lot of interesting ideas, but there's a lot that's not quite baked yet.
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It's a combination of what we expect, because it's not a terminal emulator shell.
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It's not like Bash, it's different, but it's got some cool stuff, so there's expectation,
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and then there are just bugs and things that haven't been finished.
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I can't remember who started...
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I've got a link in my configuration file, but somebody was writing on how to get the
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output from the last command in shell, shell mode, and I thought, that's a great idea.
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I want that in Eshell, and then I found the source code that there's a double dollar sign
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that's already there.
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Great.
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Wait a minute.
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It doesn't work all the time?
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What the hell?
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When I saw that in your talk, I was like, oh, that's one of the things I've been looking
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for.
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It is, exactly.
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Now, I'll admit, the underpinnings are really good.
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It didn't take long to actually make that and fix it, and then make it even better.
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Like putting in a kill ring, it's like, now that is nice, so that I could just grab it
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as an array and go.
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That's really good.
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So, I think there's a lot of good stuff there.
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I think, yeah, let's just make some features.
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Let's make an extension, and let's assign the copyright to the BFSS.
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Yeah, maybe I'll start looking at Eshell after.
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I'm playing around with org-node right now, trying to catch up to some of the forks, but
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maybe Eshell is another, the next thing to sort of poke at.
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Aren't there so many fun things to do?
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It's terrible.
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Great, great, great.
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I got another question over here in the IRC, do you ever fall back to terminals and shells
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outside of Emacs?
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Okay, that, all right, confession time, yes, I sometimes use iterm.
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So when I, so when I first boot up, I do have to use a terminal before I start up Emacs
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because it's got to mount everything.
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So I do use iterm, and yeah, sometimes if it happens to be there, I'll type the command
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in there instead of running into Emacs.
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But I just find running those terminals to be pretty frustrating because most of them,
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you have to use a mouse to copy and select stuff.
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Yeah and actually I could maybe chime in here and say that yeah, exactly, not only for terminals
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but also for IRC clients, I feel like I've tried using a bunch of different ones, yeah,
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but it ultimately comes down to I can't just put the cursor up, you know, quickly grab
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something, kill it and paste it somewhere else or just use it.
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And yeah, that's, I feel like one of the killer features of Emacs or anything that's built
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into Emacs.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Agreed.
19:32.040 --> 19:39.320
Lounge679 says, what are the less well oiled parts of Eshell and the edge cases?
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Yeah, that's a great phrasing, less well oiled parts.
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There's just a little friction and I think we need to figure out how to fix those things
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when we encounter them.
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Yeah, I should make a list of the things I found and hey, Mal, you give me a list too.
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And yeah.
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I think one of the problems with Eshell is that it's not based on comment, like shell
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and- It isn't.
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Yeah, and as a result, the other shells have like a uniform interface and uniform key bindings
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for doing things.
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And Eshell does things slightly differently, different enough that-
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That's right.
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Yeah.
20:27.360 --> 20:28.360
Yeah, exactly.
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And that's good and bad.
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It's doing something totally different.
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And if you know that it's just gonna be different and you'll treat it differently, at least that's
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how I found.
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So that's why I'm jumping between the vterm and Eshell, depending on what I'm trying to
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do.
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But I'm just finding there's a lot of interesting stuff in Eshell, but it changes how we run
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things.
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I think it's very similar to, well, I mean, if, okay, I'm not blaming names, but if you're
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a VI user, you're starting with a terminal and you're running commands.
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And then when you need to edit a file, you edit, you come back, but the shell is kind
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of your main focus.
21:05.400 --> 21:10.160
Well, we're all over here in Emacs and we just run commands from Emacs, right?
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That's just how we behave.
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And using Eshell is this way where don't go all the way, don't try to, but you can kind
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of pretend and do different things.
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So yeah, so that's why I say it kind of changes our behavior because it's doing things differently.
21:30.320 --> 21:34.560
So you can't look at it as another common.
21:34.560 --> 21:43.600
Wait, so when you say you're using vterm, does that mean you're using, that's a separate
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application outside of Emacs or is there a, oh, oh, yeah.
21:49.920 --> 21:55.960
So vterm is, I don't know when it came out, a couple of years ago, I don't know the details
21:55.960 --> 22:02.960
of it, but it's using a module library to do all the heavy lifting.
22:02.960 --> 22:07.720
So it's just a little better comment and I've just found it to be a lot, very reliable and
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pretty fast.
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So especially when I'm SSHing into another machine in my data centers and especially
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building all the Docker and some of the weird terminal stuff that I need to do in those
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shell environments using SSH, I just find vterm to be really good for what that does.
22:28.280 --> 22:29.280
Oh, okay.
22:29.280 --> 22:30.280
I see it now.
22:30.280 --> 22:31.280
It's on an alpha.
22:31.280 --> 22:32.280
All right.
22:32.280 --> 22:33.280
Yeah.
22:33.280 --> 22:39.880
It is in the, you're still in Emacs, but the key bindings are pretty good, but you do,
22:39.880 --> 22:47.280
you know, it has two modes, one for selecting text and then one for being a terminal.
22:47.280 --> 22:50.280
Maybe I'll try that out instead of metax-gel.
22:50.280 --> 22:54.240
Yes, I would, if you can.
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The problem that I think most people have is building that vterm library.
22:59.200 --> 23:02.960
I haven't had any problems on my work Mac.
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So it's been pretty good for me.
23:04.480 --> 23:05.480
Okay.
23:05.480 --> 23:06.480
All right.
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That's good to know about too, but that'll keep me from you like adopting Eshell.
23:12.240 --> 23:13.240
Sure.
23:13.240 --> 23:17.720
You know, that's a nice thing about choices.
23:17.720 --> 23:18.720
Yeah.
23:18.720 --> 23:29.160
You'll just find that vterm, I think behaves exactly like you expect a terminal to act.
23:29.160 --> 23:31.560
And so you won't have, you won't have to do much.
23:31.560 --> 23:35.060
I don't have much in the way of customizations.
23:35.060 --> 23:41.160
It's mostly my customizations is just starting a vterm running SSH automatically.
23:41.160 --> 23:44.600
So it's mostly about working with my external hosts.
23:44.600 --> 23:51.600
And if I may quickly jump in here, I think we have about another minute or so of live
23:51.600 --> 23:55.760
Q&A on the stream at which point then the stream will move on, but you folks are welcome
23:55.760 --> 24:01.440
to stay here or like continue the Q&A on the pad or whatever works best.
24:01.440 --> 24:02.440
Just staying in this room.
24:02.440 --> 24:03.440
Yeah.
24:03.440 --> 24:04.440
And continue talking.
24:04.440 --> 24:05.440
Lovely.
24:05.440 --> 24:06.440
Yeah.
24:06.440 --> 24:12.120
As Karthik has said vterm isn't distracting.
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It doesn't, you know, it's, it's just exactly what you expect.
24:18.600 --> 24:20.480
So it's not interesting either.
24:20.480 --> 24:34.320
No, I'm just, yeah, and so there's some good comments on the IRC.
24:34.320 --> 24:35.320
So yeah.
24:35.320 --> 24:36.320
Thanks everybody.
24:36.320 --> 24:37.320
It's been fun.
24:37.320 --> 24:38.320
All right.
24:38.320 --> 24:39.320
I'm going to jump off now.
24:39.320 --> 24:40.320
Nice talking to you, Howard.
24:40.320 --> 24:41.320
You too.
24:41.320 --> 24:42.320
All right.
24:42.320 --> 24:43.320
Thank you all.
24:43.320 --> 24:46.800
I think I'll drop off as well.
24:46.800 --> 24:48.800
All right.
24:48.800 --> 24:50.800
Thank you.
