path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-pgmacs--pgmacs-browsing-and-editing-postgresql-databases-from-emacs--eric-marsden--answers.vtt

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And I believe we are live. Hi, Eric, how are you doing? Very

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well, thanks. It's a pleasure to have you as one of our

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speakers but it's also very nice to see you present about

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pgmacs because I found your talk to be very didactic and very

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visual. So thank you for taking the time to do a very nice

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presentation. I wanted to give the opportunity as I do with

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other speakers to maybe talk about some stuff that you could

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not include into the talk because of the format. So is there

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anything you'd like to share with the viewers that you

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weren't able to include?

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Oh, I think I gave most of the most of the relevant

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information. This is a fairly young application. I've been

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developing this since roughly the beginning of the year. So

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there are probably some rough edges that people will run

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into if they use Postgres differently from what I do. Or they

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hear maybe conflicts with some other Emacs packages that

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people use that I don't use. So I would really welcome people

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trying it out and sending out bug reports if they do

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encounter some. Yeah, I mean, it's usually... Go on,

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please. Yeah, that would certainly help to make sure it's

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nice and robust. And of course, if you're letting this loose

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on some production database that you might have, you want

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this to be quite robust, obviously. Yeah, indeed. Because

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usually, you know, when you start publishing packages like

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this, that's when you realize that it has bad interaction

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with other modes in the Emacs of other persons. But

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especially when you're dealing with databases, you also

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realize that the domain space of what you're trying to do

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with your mode also is hugely dependent on what people have

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in their database, which schema they have. So, indeed, if

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you have been interested, and I think plenty of people have

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been interested by what you've presented, part of the

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reason a software becomes great is that you've got plenty of

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people making bug reports and making sure that all the

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faults have been ironed out. So, you know what your task is. I

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will also ask you, particularly right now, people

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currently viewing, to add your questions on the pad as

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usual, because you've had plenty of nice reactions, but I'm

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sure you have plenty of questions as well. So Eric, what I'll

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be doing, I'll be reading you the questions so that it's a

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little more didactic. Starting with the first one. This is

NOTE Q: Do you know if PGmacs works with TRAMP?

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brilliant, thank you. Do you know if pgmacs works with TRAMP?

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I often use TRAMP multi-hop to access databases both

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remotely when accessing via bastion server and locally

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when using OCI containers. I believe you've already

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answered but if you could just perhaps read your answer as

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well for everyone to benefit from it. Yep, sure, that's my

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comment indeed. So I haven't currently implemented any

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TRAMP support. I'm not sure that TRAMP is really useful for

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this type of situation, because as I understand it, TRAMP is

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establishing SSH connections itself to remote servers.

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pgmacs is doing the same thing, so it doesn't currently have

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any support for hooking in with the TRAMP support. Right.

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Pardon me if I missed the presentation. Oh, go on, please. I

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guess you could set up an SSH tunnel. It does work with an SSH

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tunnel, obviously, but there's no support for hooking into

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an SSH tunnel that TRAMP might be able to create. I'm not sure

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TRAMP actually uses SSH tunnels rather than direct

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commands, but anyway. Yeah, I think that might be useful.

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Yeah, I don't know either. I don't have the answer whether

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TRAMP actually can create tunnels like this. I'm usually

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used to TRAMP connecting to an endpoint, be it a directory or

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a file, and the tunnel is just you accessing the file. But

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usually, if you're trying to access a remote Postgres

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database, you would probably manage the port forwarding in

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a separate terminal just to be able to make sure that

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everything maps correctly to your machine, and then you

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would launch pgmacs with the forward port information.

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That's, I assume, how you would do it anyway. But yeah, I

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mean, if you could specify what you mean by TRAMP support and

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if you have something specific in mind, I'm talking to the

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questioner, feel free to specify and we'll see if you can

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answer it. But in the meantime, moving to the next question.

NOTE Q: How did you come up with this brilliant idea?

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Great work, I'm impressed. How did you come up with this

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brilliant idea, I assume, to create pgmacs? Well, thanks for

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the compliment. It's a lot of fun developing something

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which is, as I said, such a small amount of code and which

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provides quite a bit of useful functionality. In

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particular, if you compare it with existing Terminal mode

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applications for manipulating Postgres data, they are

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not as extensible as Emacs is naturally. So I actually got

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the idea for developing this when I first tested out the

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SQLite mode, which is available in Emacs 29.1.

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And I thought, well, that's really quite impressive. And it

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allows you to delete rows and insert content and so on. And I

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was thinking, yeah, Emacs is a, is a useful environment to do

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that. And since several years ago, when I was doing my PhD, so

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to avoid doing my PhD, I was developing Emacs, I was

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developing stuff in Emacs Lisp and one of the libraries I

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developed was an interface to Postgres over the network. So

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that's the library called pg.el, which is used by pgmacs to

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access Postgres and to do all the parsing of data which

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arrives in Postgres formats into the Emacs Lisp into the

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Emacs corresponding versions. So, for example, integers

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are passed as Emacs integers, floating point numbers as

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floating point numbers, and so on. Right, yeah. I mean, it's

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pretty needed, obviously, when you have such a tooling like

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this, to make sure that the type conversion works properly,

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because the types that you have in Postgres do not

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necessarily map over to what we have in Emacs. Like, I'm

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interested, how would you handle g's and b columns in pgmacs?

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JSON is mapped to an edis dict, a dictionary.

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It depends on the top level object type for your JSON column.

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If it's an array, it's mapped to an Emacs Lisp array. If it's a

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dict, which is most common, it's mapped to an Emacs Lisp

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dictionary. All right, well it makes perfect sense. So I can

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break in with a question. Thanks, I just helped myself to the

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BBB privilege of kind of running around backstage, being a

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helper backstage. So thanks for your awesome talk, Eric. I

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super appreciated it. You know, I noticed that you that

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you're on a slightly older version of Emacs that I deal with

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in helping with producing the Windows binaries I run into

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and with some other stuff I do. I'm dealing with that

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friction of sometimes I've got some work of my own that

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applies against a specific version of Emacs and it's a bunch

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of work to think about moving it forward. Just curious if you

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started thinking about that or if you routine, if that's a

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routine that you haven't done or there's something maybe

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specifically going on with, you know, with trunk

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development that looks intimidating to deal with. Thanks

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for the comment. I'm not sure I'm using a really old version

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for Windows. I don't really develop often on Windows, but I I

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occasionally check that it works, and I took a screenshot

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that I included in the slides here, but I think I'm using

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29.4, the current version on Windows. I thought I saw 29.1,

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so that's probably my, I probably missed it when it went by.

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My bad. No, no, I use it via the choco package updater so that

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updates the Emacs version quite easily on Windows. So

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thanks for your work on maintaining Windows binaries. I

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realize that was- I sit downstream at the end of a lot of other

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people's hard work and then just focus on trying to QA well

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and help catch problems early. It's really fun. But of

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course, my pleasure.

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Coming back to the previous question, so the the

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questionnaire actually provided a little more context. So

NOTE TRAMP continued

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with docker.el, kubel, etc, it's often possible to, for

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example, select a container pod or whatever that is hosted

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on the machine you've connected to via TRAMP, such as

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Podman, colon image colon path and trigger a terminal shell

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as well as pull forward on other similar things. It'd be nice

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to be able to use this tool in a similar way since it would open

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up the ability to use it with complex connection

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configuration. Doing SSH tunnel manually is of course

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totally fine in practice and if it is actually the case

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personally when I need to remote into a kubernetes machine I

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use POSIX script that I use on most of my machines but I don't

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do it inside Emacs. But yeah, if such a thing is possible via

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TRAMP, it definitely feels like it would be possible to do

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something similar in pgmacs. So perhaps that's a path of

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investigation for you that has opened up. Yeah, thanks for

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these comments. I'll look into that indeed if people have

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some shortcuts registered in TRAMP. So not for a terminal,

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because pgmacs won't work through a terminal, but through a

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port forward, then that would be convenient. I'll see how

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easy that is to set up. Yeah, I'm pretty sure the way it works

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is that it starts some processes in the background in Emacs

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just to either maintain the port forward or to maybe remap

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some kubecon things or whatever. So with pgmacs,

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considering complex pipelines to get to the end

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destination, it feels like it would be possible to do

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something. But perhaps it's not the responsibility of

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pgmacs, perhaps it's the responsibility of another,

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perhaps something that would target TRAMP more so than

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pgmacs. But it's nice to see again how the beauty of Emacs

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is that everything is Elisp at the end, and the way they

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interact, you might want to question yourself whether this

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belongs more to pgmacs or more to TRAMP, but at the end of the

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day, both applications will be able to benefit from the

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functions of the other. So that's the beauty of the

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philosophy right here. I do see... Absolutely, I agree.

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Sorry, before we move to different questions, an

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additional point. I should point out that to warn people

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that probably running over an SSH tunnel is going to be a bit

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slow. I mostly use it on my own machine via a local Unix

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connection. And for some reason that I haven't understood,

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pgmacs is quite a bit slower when it's even connecting to the

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same database on the local machine, but via Emacs' network

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support instead of via the Unix socket support. There is

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like a factor 10 difference in throughput and in latency. I

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don't really understand why currently, because it's using

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exactly the same Emacs Lisp level primitives. And when you

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do this using other libraries like libpq, which is the

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Postgres standard official library for connecting to

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Postgres, there's not such a performance difference. So

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there's probably something that is not working perfectly

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in the Emacs network support. I'll have to see whether I can

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investigate how to improve that performance. Yeah, I'm

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going to say it sounds like a great bug to have because it

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feels like it will allow you to dig deeper into Emacs to

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understand what is going on here. Because as you said,

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normally it's supposed to work exactly the same,

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especially if it's still in your local machine, but it

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doesn't. Personally, that's the kind of bug that I really

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like and that I'd like to spend more time investigating. So

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perhaps you might think otherwise, but I wish you luck on the

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debugging with this particular matter. All right, moving

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to the last question that we have and then we'll probably go

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on a little bit of a break.

NOTE Q: Is sqlite-mode also capable of all of this functionality (table relations, etc)? If not, will it be possible to abstract out this functionality from pgmacs somehow?

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Question. Is SQLite mode also

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capable of all of this functionality, table relations,

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etc.? If not, would it be possible to abstract out this

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functionality from pgmacs somehow?

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So I'm not very familiar with SQLite because I don't really

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use it very much myself. I'm not sure I can answer that

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question. Sorry about that. I think it is probably a bit more

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basic because SQLite itself is quite a bit more basic in

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terms of the types of indexes it's able to support and the

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types of constraints it's able to support. Is it relevant to

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create an abstract API for connecting to databases? I think

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there is already actually a library that abstracts out from

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SQLite and Postgres. Postgres, when you connect to it via a

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PSQL subsystem,

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it might be worthwhile doing that, but there are often a few

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minor differences in SQL syntax and so on between

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databases. So it might be difficult to have something that

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really works with generic queries in an effective way. All

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these SQL dialects are a little bit different,

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unfortunately. So there was another question about I was

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just going to read out the next question.

NOTE Q: Would it be possible to move it into Emacs tree? Are the maintainers interested in it?

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So have you thought

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about integrating your work into the Emacs tree? Do you know

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if people are interested? This was a question from the past.

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Yeah, I think it's probably a bit young to do so, so far.

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I'm updating it quite regularly. Maybe once it's more

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stabilized, I wouldn't necessarily object to this. I have

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some sort of philosophical objections to giving away my

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copyright, so I'm not sure that will actually be possible.

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Oh, that'd be interesting. I'd love to get you on maybe a

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panel talk about that sometime. Something I'd think about.

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Well, from a very simple point of view, I think that the

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copyright and the system works well with the existing

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license and without a license transfer, so I don't feel that

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the, sorry, without a copyright transfer,

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I don't feel that the copyright transfer is really a necessary step for

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taking things away from maintainers. It feels like asking

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the maintainers to give up on some of their copyright...

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Indeed. Yeah, I see where that's a little beyond our scope,

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but it's a fascinating topic and I appreciate your sharing

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your views there. I mean, that sounds like a whole topic of

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its own, frankly.

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Yeah. Corwin, do you want to fill the last question? Sure. So

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the question was, I almost missed this one, so glad I didn't.

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This may have been answered already.

NOTE Q: What do you use for the in-buffer tables? Vtable?

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What do you use for

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in-buffer tables? Do you use vtable? Yep. Thanks for the

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question. It is indeed vtable. However, it's not really

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vtable. It's a fork that I made, which is called pgmix table.

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because Vtable doesn't have exactly the right

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functionality in particular for recoloring rows when you

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add a row. So I've currently forked this. I'm thinking about

00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:36.359
giving those back as patches to Vtable, plausibly.

00:17:36.360 --> 00:17:40.719
I know that there is some ongoing work also on vTable in the

00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:45.839
core. So I'll have to look at what is plausible to feed back

00:17:45.840 --> 00:17:46.719
into the main version.

00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:55.199
All right, great. I think we are nearing the end of the Q&A. We

00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:59.079
are due to move to the next talk in about three minutes now. I

00:17:59.080 --> 00:18:02.719
can fill 30 seconds or a minute of that with I guess one more

00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:05.079
maybe back and forth and I'll try to be quicker this time.

00:18:05.080 --> 00:18:08.879
First of all, thanks for your kind remarks. But my question

00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:11.839
wasn't really about Windows so much, it was just how I'm

00:18:11.840 --> 00:18:16.639
relating... So have you, let me put it more simply, have you

NOTE Integrating with Emacs 30?

00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.639
started looking at integrating with Emacs 30 or with the

00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:24.679
master branch at all? Do you have any sense of how much work

00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:27.079
it's going to be for you to carry things forward there? I've

00:18:27.080 --> 00:18:31.039
tested it with the pre-release, yes. I mean, just a very

00:18:31.040 --> 00:18:35.079
basic testing and everything works perfectly. There's

00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:39.799
really no... There was no difference that I have noticed

00:18:39.800 --> 00:18:46.279
between 29.4 and the 30 pre-release on the aspects that I use

00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:48.959
at least in Emacs. Neato.

00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:56.439
That was it, Leo. Thanks for letting me back in for one more

00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:58.799
bite at the apple there. And I appreciate everybody tuning

00:18:58.800 --> 00:19:03.479
in and participating in the Q&A and this awesome talk.

00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.879
Thanks for your questions. That was great. Yeah, and thank

00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:10.319
you for answering them and for the presentation as well. So

00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:14.199
we'll be moving in about two minutes to the next talk, which

00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:20.159
is pre-recorded as well. Well, we didn't really give you the

00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:29.399
chance, Eric, to have the last word. So do you have any last

00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:29.799
word?

00:19:29.800 --> 00:19:34.479
please try it out, try out pgmacs and send some feedback

00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:39.279
that'll help improve it over time. Sure, great. Well, thank

00:19:39.280 --> 00:19:41.559
you so much, Eric, for taking the time to come to the

00:19:41.560 --> 00:19:45.999
conference, and we'll see you soon. Thank you. Bye,

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:50.279
everyone. Bye. And we'll be live with the next talk in about 1

00:19:50.280 --> 00:19:53.119
minute 30. So we'll take a little bit of a breather, go make

00:19:53.120 --> 00:19:56.599
some coffee, go take a bio break. We'll be back soon. See you

00:19:56.600 --> 00:20:01.880
in a bit.