path: root/2024/captions/emacsconf-2024-literate--literate-programming-for-the-21st-century--howard-abrams--answers.vtt

WEBVTT

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I'm doing great. Good to hear from you guys. Yeah, I mean,

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you've been a regular of the show, I would say, for quite a

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while, and it's good. I really like the retrospective that

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you did the first time you attended EmacsConf. And when was

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it? Was it 2015? I can't actually remember. 2015 was when I

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presented that, but I did an earlier talk the year before. So

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yeah, that's why it's kind of thing. It's like, wow, it's

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been a decade. It's been a while. Yeah, and I'm glad that you

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are in a much better recording situation than you were in

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2015 at the back of your colleague's house. It's good to see

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you at your own place. Well, it's also nice to pre-record and

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then just share. Yeah, I mean, that's why we keep talking

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about pre-recording. You know, when we really pushed

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pre-recordings, I think it was five years ago when we

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started, people were not really liking it. They thought,

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oh, but most conferences are just asking you to come and

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chat. And, you know, I don't need to do the pesky

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pre-recording. But now, and especially for you regulars,

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you're really starting to realize that pre-recordings are

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actually amazing for everyone. You're less stressed on the

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day of the conference. We, the organizers, are way less

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stressed. So it's a win-win scenario for absolutely

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everyone in the equation. Okay, so there's some

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confirmation bias at work, but I'm not really arguing with

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what Leo says for the record. It may be that we are just that

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this stoked that we're lying to ourselves by the

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opportunity that we have to chat with each of you. Sure.

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Sure. Sure. I have really appreciated all of the, the

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transcripts. It's been great that, you know, to be able to

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read and copy and paste and all that kind of thing. Yeah, it's

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great. So yeah, let's answer some questions here.

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Let's see. Yeah, just feel free to jump onto the Etherpad and

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just drop on the questions. I'll keep answering them all day

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kind of thing and get better answers as we go along.

NOTE Q: What's the largest code base you've ever tackled with the literate approach (esp. Emacs + Org-mode)?

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So yeah, the first question here is, what's my largest code base?

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I kind of touched it in my presentation. However, I think

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someone just went through and did a better count than it

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looks like. a little bit more. So

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as I joked about in the video, we've all worked on larger code

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bases, but that's still, it's kind of significant. So it's

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not, so yeah, anyway. So let's talk a little bit about

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searching for functions here. If you've got your functions

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in your code or code block, well, you can search for the

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descriptions, you know, as long as you've evaluated it. And

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so that wasn't so much of a problem, but I did want to like look

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at the commentary around any function that I would define.

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And that's where, yeah, you know, the C-x or the

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C-f to define that function and display it. It won't

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pull out the literate stuff around it, obviously, it'll

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only do the doc header. But if you could search for it and find

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it quick, then it might be just as useful. And I guess that's

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why I started getting into seeing if I can't tie that into the

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X ref. you know, just the standard ways. My first part, I

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noticed that evil has a different way of searching through

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for looking for code definitions. That was my first foray

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into it. It's like, oh, that's not a bad idea. Let's hook it up

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under, you know, in the standard way.

NOTE Q: Have you ever used org-transclusion?

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Let's see. Have I ever used org-transclusion?

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No, I haven't, but I think I want to

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take a look at it. I haven't heard of it before.

NOTE Q: What is your usage of dynamic blocks in such workflows?

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Let's see. What's my usage of dynamic blocks in my

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workflows? You know, that's a real good question. I haven't

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really used them a lot in all of my workflows, but yeah, it's

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an interesting, you know, we always start.

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At first, all

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we're doing is just taking a few notes, then we start

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organizing, then we've got links, and then we're writing

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code blocks, and then agendas, and table, you know, we keep

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building up on it.

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I guess I haven't really added that to

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my workflow, but maybe I'll have to come back

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and report on that.

NOTE Q: Is the minibuffer being deliberately hidden in this video?

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Is the mini buffer being deliberately hidden in my

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video? Not deliberately. I recorded it first and

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accidentally not clipped the video and turned that all off.

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So I went through and started fixing all of it. But yeah, so

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you'll notice the mini buffer kind of comes and goes in the

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video. Sorry about that.

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So yeah, it wasn't intentional at all.

NOTE Q: What's your take on Emacs+Org vs. Jupyter notebooks (for interactive programming)?

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What's my take on Emacs Org versus Jupyter? That's a real

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good question. I've been toying about seeing if I could do

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everything that some people do with Jupyter notebooks in

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order. I don't need to do it as much because I'm still kind of

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doing a lot of list programming and a lot of my DevOps, which

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is a lot of shell work and a lot of Python. Most of the Jupyter

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notebooks, they automatically include a lot of things in

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from either Julia or Python, like NumPy and all the dynamic

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stuff that's going on there. Since it has a server,

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it seems like it's running a lot more stuff and then just

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shipping it back off into the web app. That has been the

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biggest challenge as I've tried to kind of duplicate that. I

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don't really know NumPy and all the math stuff and that sort

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of stuff that well. So trying to do like matrix

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multiplications and that kind of thing that seemed to be

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pretty easy in the Jupyter, it's not very easy in Org. I've

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attempted to kind of work with Julia and the Julia support

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for Org is really limited it seems. That's the, So, yeah,

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there's some improvements we could probably make. So, I

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think if somebody is comfortable with Jupiter, and that

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seems to work, you may have to stay there. I don't know how

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easy. I would be curious to try to see what we could do as a

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community to kind of make that transition a lot easier.

NOTE Q: Do you think any programming language is more suited to literate programming than another?

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Do you think any programming language

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is more suited to literate

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programming than another? Hey, that's a real good

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question. A lot of mine is with Emacs Lisp, and obviously

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that's a first-class citizen in Emacs. Go figure, right? So

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that one certainly works. A lot depends on the support in the

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OB version for the Babel work. Python is really well

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supported, and yeah, Emacs Lisp. Others, Shell, you know,

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it works, but it's hard to get both the values, the variables

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out of the environment variables into your thing. So most

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everything is just with the results of output. So, you know,

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some languages aren't quite as good as others for sure. I

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would love to see better support for more interesting

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languages, especially ones that are compiled. I've been

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dabbling with Rust and like, yeah, what can we do to have Rust

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more iterative as well? So...

NOTE Q: Do you use inline org function calls and org babel library and such?

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Do you use inline org function calls in Org Babel library? So

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I used to do a lot of Org Babel libraries to kind of share

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things.

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Yeah. What I. But yeah. Sorry, I'm just kind of thinking

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through here. I've done a lot of it in the past. There were a

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lot of bugs in it. Oh, I don't know, eight years ago when I was

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playing with it. I bet things have improved a lot more and it

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probably saved me a lot more effort. Right now, most of the

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literate devops, the devops kind of stuff that I'm doing, is

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calling a lot of back-end programs and that sort of thing. So

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the Org Babel kind of has limited help in that regard. And as

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far as my Emacs work, well, it's just part of the session. So

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it's going to be available or not. So that hasn't been as

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helpful either. So it's kind of dropped off. But I bet if

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you're using something like, say, Python, it might be a lot

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more helpful.

NOTE Q: How do you handle the cases where org markup may sometimes interfere with some of the code?

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Another question, how do you handle the cases

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where markup may sometimes interfere with some of the code

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in places where you can't escape? Oh, okay. All right. Let me

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see if I understand the question correctly.

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When I, like, when I'm making prose, and I'm talking about a

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function that I've written somewhere else, like, oh, I need

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to work on this, or this calls this, and yeah, I'll use the

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tildes or the equal signs on either side to make sure it's.

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that it's clear that it's code. In my xref, when I'm doing a

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thing-at-point so it can go look for that symbol, I do look for

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those things at the end and strip them off so that I can mark it

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up and still search and it's still okay. I'm not sure if

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that's the answer to the question. Yeah, clarifying. I'm

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making prose. I'm talking about a function I've written

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somewhere else. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is what I'm talking

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about, where a function with tildes on either end, and if I do

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an xref search find for that symbol, it'll strip that off and

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then still look for the function name, so I can still mark it

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correctly.

NOTE Q: You said at the start that literate didn't catch on in corporate DevOps - why not?

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You said at the start that literate didn't catch on in

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corporate devops, why not? You know,

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I guess the big thing is not everybody's using Emacs,

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and I don't think anybody would be

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doing literate programming if you didn't

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have Emacs. I mean, you got to have Org, or it just

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doesn't work that well, right?

NOTE Q: Why not that full stack on Markdown?

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Why not that full stack on Markdown? Yeah, so I often do a lot

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of Markdown. I have got, so I've gone through and make my

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markdown look a lot like Org. So my headers are the same size

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as org. When I mark, do the triple back ticks, you know, and

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specify your language, we can now colorize that.

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So you can kind of now have it

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syntactically marked up. It would be

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interesting if we kind of expanded on Markdown so that I

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could do a C-c twice on it and run that code block.

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That's a real good idea. Maybe we should work on that.

NOTE Corwin's aside on orgvm

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How does your management of TODOs, projects, and tasks

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interact with this literate mindset? I can't believe I'm

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going to do this, but Howard, I'm going to break right in

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there because I just can't. I need to talk about that. So this

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is I bought a domain. And really what I mean is I have this

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domain if somebody gets some work done in this area. I'm

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fascinated by this. That's mostly really actually my whole

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comment. But I just wanted to say, indeed, that is something

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maybe we should work on. Well said. I think the idea of having

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something that's full-stack baked around Emacs is pretty

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fascinating, just thinking about it as some command line

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tool that we can run to get some work done, and then there are

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documents involved, and as you know coming back

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to the kind of corporate

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sense of some of the things like there...

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that's a little dicey the same way a free software

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project raising money for itself is a little dicey.

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It might be a necessary way to get through

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certain kinds of things and like

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what the corporate side of the world brings to the table

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Here in my mind is that idea of I've got a formal process,

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like the process itself is an asset.

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If I were selling my company,

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that would be visibly of value to outside auditors that

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would help us arbitrate the sale. It's just empirical.

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Then tie that together with free software is maybe a little

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unstated ethos of doing our work in the open, and you might

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even deal with some of the ick factor. that you know that for a

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handler. Maybe so, but yeah, the downside to that is you'd

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still need to use Emacs to run through it, right? You know,

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for all those cool features, yes, it would be kind of a yet

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another killer app that we would have. So my domain name is

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orgvm, and my concept is really put org into a box, build a UI

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around it, it executes things that manipulate files that

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generate, let's say, And that's just one conceptual

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solution. But I really do think this is a super fun topic. And

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that's the space. I'm not sure my idea is that wonderful. I

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personally haven't soaked too many weekends into it. But I

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just love the way you're thinking in terms of, well, we

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should think more about that. Gosh, that's great to hear.

NOTE Org and Markdown fragmentation

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Yeah. Yeah, I mean, just like the talk yesterday on the

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future of org, it's like, let's standardize it. Because,

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yeah, we don't want to have org fragmented like Markdown is.

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Markdown is terribly fragmented. You know, everybody's

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got different implementations. And Yeah, what I've ended

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up doing, I don't know if you've seen my blog, but I often I'm

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always just writing an org and talking to myself and writing

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questions and answers and essays come out of that. And then

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I'll put them on my web page and easy. It's easy to publish to a

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web page. Well, I do the same thing at work, but I need to have

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it marked down. I don't start Markdown though. I'm always

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starting an org because that, you know, I can really work

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through the problem space, you know, executing code blocks

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and making sure they work and all of that sort of stuff. And

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then I just export to Markdown and then go cleaned up a little

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bit if I need to. And that makes sense. But I am editing

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Markdown afterwards. So yeah, it would be nice. It would be

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nice. It's just, it's all done over here as opposed to, you

00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:02.879
know, Adding it over there, but yeah, let's think about

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every bit as much as as that. You know, I jumped in in the

00:16:06.520 --> 00:16:09.959
spirit of yes, let's think about it. You know, your, your

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comments about, let's think about the workflows that work

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for us. Wow. Does that hit home? Right? So great. Yeah. Yeah.

NOTE Q: How does your management of "TODOs" (projects/tasks) interact with this literate mindset, any insightful things you do on that front?

00:16:17.920 --> 00:16:25.279
Yeah. Okay. So, uh, on to do's and that sort of thing, um. You

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know, a lot is the same as it was 10 years ago. At the beginning

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of every sprint,

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my company, we're using JIRA.

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All jokes are valid when I say that. But I just go to its web

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page. I copy all the tasks that I need to do that sprint. I

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wrote a function that takes that code and reformats it as a

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bunch of org tasks for me to do that I can just now have all my

00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:02.799
to-dos. And I start to work off of that from that point on. So

00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:06.479
it'll reference all the projects, and I do symlinks to every

00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:12.479
code base that I need to use. Most of the to-dos I put inside my

00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:16.639
code block is kind of just for me, just so I can remember it.

00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:21.086
Because the work that I have to do

00:17:21.087 --> 00:17:24.119
needs to be tracked a little more

00:17:24.120 --> 00:17:30.629
fine-grained, I guess. Yeah.

NOTE Q: Do you LP also on larger projects?

00:17:30.630 --> 00:17:33.439
Do I use LP also on larger

00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:37.199
projects? More files and nested directories? Yeah, I

00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:43.879
haven't really done nested directories, but I can now. Now

00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:49.839
that I've now kind of realized that I have the feature that I

00:17:49.840 --> 00:17:54.439
demonstrated where I can just jump to any projects for a

00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:59.559
particular project, all the org files and all the headings

00:17:59.560 --> 00:18:02.439
show up, that works in nested directories.

00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:10.999
Oh, okay, yeah, somebody's typing it in. Yeah, so it's

00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.359
definitely possible. And I have now, since I recorded the

00:18:15.360 --> 00:18:20.519
talk, I've been busy typing in and trying to extract that out

00:18:20.520 --> 00:18:24.479
of my init file and make it into a package. I'm looking for a

00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:30.239
good name right now. I'm calling it jobs, jump to project

00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:36.399
sections. Anyway, but yeah, I think that's kind of a nice,

00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:38.935
useful feature.

NOTE Q: Have you used Cucumber/Gherkin/BDD and do you think it has a strong overlap to what you talked about here?

00:18:38.936 --> 00:18:41.919
Have I used Cucumber, Gherkin, and other

00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.479
behavior-driven development?

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:50.719
Have I, I mean, I do a lot of...

00:18:50.720 --> 00:19:00.279
more test driven. I do a lot of unit tests and I just put it

00:19:00.280 --> 00:19:04.679
right in my code base because if it's in my pros, I can just

00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:07.199
shove it in there. I've got the test right next to the

00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:11.519
function that I'm testing. I like that so I can kind of see it.

00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:15.359
I don't tangle it out to that same source file. I tangle it

00:19:15.360 --> 00:19:19.119
somewhere else if I tangle it at all because I don't need to. I

00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:23.199
can just, you know, C-c that and run it. I like that

00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:24.879
aspect of it.

00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.319
Yeah, just keeping things together. That's the big problem

00:19:29.320 --> 00:19:32.479
I have with a lot of tests is the tests are somewhere else.

00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:35.319
It's separate from the code. I like seeing it all together,

00:19:35.320 --> 00:19:39.879
but a lot depends on how extensive it is. So for a lot of the,

00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.359
you know, the tests that we end up doing where, you know,

00:19:43.360 --> 00:19:47.759
you've got to do a lot of mocks and a lot of startup and tear

00:19:47.760 --> 00:19:51.839
down, that kind of thing. Yeah, that doesn't help as much.

00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:54.599
And you probably have to kind of go old school on that.

NOTE Q: What granularity are you looking for re your org files and contents, with respect to a codebase that it tangles to, or in non-coding contexts?

00:19:54.600 --> 00:20:01.359
What granularity I'm looking for with my org files and my

00:20:01.360 --> 00:20:03.634
subcontent? That's a real good question

00:20:03.635 --> 00:20:05.255
and really subjective.

00:20:05.256 --> 00:20:13.159
I change that over time. I begin by just dumping.

00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:16.378
I just dump everything in my head into a file

00:20:16.379 --> 00:20:19.679
and then I go through and start to refine it.

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:26.159
My goal at one point was to have an Emacs config file that was

00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:29.919
really small and simple. And boy, that just doesn't happen.

00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:35.759
It's just too fun to add things and try new ideas. And I found

00:20:35.760 --> 00:20:41.839
my files were just littered with good ideas that were

00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:47.119
half-baked and not finished. And so it's like, oh, I need to

00:20:47.120 --> 00:20:49.959
extract these and put them into different files so I can keep

00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:54.359
it clean. And so I think it's like with any code base, you're

00:20:54.360 --> 00:20:58.999
just going to keep refactoring. It's an iterative process.

00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:04.199
So having the ability to, like with an Org file, where you can

00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:09.159
archive a subtree. Okay, this idea didn't pan out. Archive

00:21:09.160 --> 00:21:13.519
it. I can come back to it later. Being able to just kind of

00:21:13.520 --> 00:21:20.399
shove it somewhere else is really a nice little feature. All

00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:25.079
right. Not a question, just a comment. We need more of your

00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:29.239
insightful posts and videos. Oh, thanks.

00:21:29.240 --> 00:21:35.519
I appreciate it. Yes, it's been a fun journey. And I think we

00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:38.519
are coming up on our time, actually. So that is just an

00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:41.919
amazing quiz. And it helps me from manipulating, as I said,

00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:46.959
or as I put it earlier, like my chance as an organizer, or not

00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:50.679
manipulating, monopolizing my chance as an organizer to

00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.439
just get a chance to pick your brain on all kinds of things,

00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:58.959
which is too kind, too kind. Appreciate it. It's been fun.

00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:04.679
All right, I'll try answering more questions online as

00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:07.959
well. All right, talk to you later. And we appreciate your

00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:10.399
being in a huge resource that you are to the community.

00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:14.199
Thanks to everyone for tuning in and we'll be coming over to

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.239
our next talk in just a moment here. And so bear with us

00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:23.239
through the transition as we slip into, I think it's our, is

00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:26.919
that our penultimate or our ultimate talk? We have one or two

00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.119
left, I'm not sure. I think we've got a couple of talks left.

00:22:30.120 --> 00:22:34.079
I'm back. Thank you, Howard. And we will be moving to the next

00:22:34.080 --> 00:22:37.159
talk in about six minutes. So if you need to grab some coffee,

00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:42.119
some tea, use the time wisely. And to confirm, we will have

00:22:42.120 --> 00:22:44.319
one, two, three more talks this afternoon. So there's still

00:22:44.320 --> 00:22:48.160
plenty to go around. See you in a bit, folks.